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  • Jenny in awful state....

    Hi Everyone

    My MIL's dog Jenny (tiny wee apricot poodle) who is diabetic is in a terrible state at the moment.

    She has been for loads of tests (even a day at the vets), first - as far as I can gather - she was told that she had a pancreatic tumour (I know this is bad, have researched it) and that she only had three months to live :0(. Then after retesting the vets - as far as I can make out -diagnosied ulcerated colitis (I looked this up but it seems to be a lifelong thing from about two - she is around 10 I think). The vets said her diabetes was under control so that was good - although she isn't home monitored. But I hear from hubby the past few weeks she is not well at all / just not right in herself.

    The other day I dropped in Bobby and Zeno and she was sort of odd looking at the gate - like not with it. I scooped her up and by goodness she felt like a chicken carcass - poor thing was just skin and bones. My MIL is desperately worried about her. Here are the symptoms that I know:-

    - Drinking tonnes (didn't used to)
    - Peeing all over the house (very clean dog usually) - last nigh hubby said she peed about 6 times around the house that evening already!
    - She is poo'ing too - sounds like she doesn't even make it hardly to the garden, tonight when I popped in she had poo'd on the kitchen floor
    - There is food in her poo (Zeno has this too sometimes, i know it is the pancreas not digesting food - he has the pancreatic powders which I asked them to put him on after hearing about them from here and it has helped - I think Jenny was put on them for a month or something)
    - blood watery
    - hungry all the time, eating plenty
    - NOT vomitting

    I have been asking hubby to bring home the list of tablets she is on so I can look them up - he is bringing them home shortly. I was convinced she must be running extremely high or something - most of the symptoms (exc the poo) but hubby just did a blood test on her for the first time and she was around 90 which I suppose is OK, it was just after her dinner (no more insulin till morning).

    What do you guys think it is? Anyone have any experience of pancreatic cancer or colitis? She is now only on insulin once a day - the teatime one was dropped - it is 3 units in the morning only. The exact reading at 8.50pm tonight was 4.7 (which is 85 in your numbers) - if that was Zeno he would be lower than normal but I would inject him after half an hour defo. I am wondering if she is taking a big increase in the morning and flying high, thus losing weight, drinking lots but if she was she wouldn't have been 85 tonight would she - she would be higher? (half hour after food). I think, by carrying her, she would be around a kilo or less (she is a tiny poodle).

    She is now also taking oxytet (3 times daily), Kaagel - 2 x 5ml daily. Never heard of them (maybe Kaagel?) - going to do some research.

    Just trying to find out what it is quickly and if there is a solution, I hope there is.

    Hugs :0(

    Sharon x
    Last edited by Bichon Mum; 12-04-2009, 03:53 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Jenny in awful state....

    Poor little Jenny....

    It does sound like pancreatic insufficiency is part of her problem: http://www.peteducation.com/article....2+1580&aid=331

    One other thing - probably out in left field - that springs to mind is Addison's Disease. This can cause diarrhea, huge water consumption and peeing and a hunched appearance with weakness and weight loss. It could also explain the need to decrease insulin (if this has happened.)

    Whatever is going on it sounds serious and that she needs to be seen by a vet ASAP.

    Alison

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    • #3
      Re: Jenny in awful state....

      ................

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      • #4
        Re: Jenny in awful state....

        Just wishing Jenny the best; this sounds very serious. Please keep us posted.

        Fri, 4 Dec 2009 20:16:11 (PST)
        http://www.coherentdog.org/
        CarolW

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        • #5
          Re: Jenny in awful state....

          Hi Sharon,

          Poor Jenny... she sounds miserable.

          You might try sending a PM to Jan. She's in the UK... not sure if the two of you are close geographically or not. Her dog has EPI, exocrine pancreatic insufficiency (EPI) exocrine pancreatic insufficiency:

          http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=557

          Looks like Oxytet is an antibiotic but I don't know what Kaagel is.

          Right off the bat, besides lacking the second insulin shot (did they say why they cut it back to once a day?)...

          uncontrolled diabetes - lack of insulin and/or some other illness driving the blood sugar wild

          diabetes insipidus (very different from mellitus)

          UTI / other bladder problems

          Cushing's disease - thirst, urinating, and appetite all go with Cushings but weight loss doesn't.

          I hope the vets are skilled and she is feeling better soon. Let us know if there is any news.

          Natalie

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          • #6
            Re: Jenny in awful state....

            Hiya Everyone

            Aww thanks for your replies.

            I've researched researched researched pancreatic insufficiency mentioned on your posts and it sounds so close to what she is like (eating tonnes etc but getting skinny) - it seems spot on apart from the pee'ing - she also has clay coloured poop. Only from memory I'd say the tests were done about 5-6 weeks ago, they sent the tests off to England and colitis was confirmed (at one point Zeno had similar poo stuff but it wasn't colitis).

            My SIL I think will be bringing her to the vet tomorrow (I have had good chat with MIL about bringing her and what I have read) - problem is if it is pancreas insufficiency that is also similar to pancreatic cancer but symptoms seem to be that they are sick (with cancer) and she isn't vomitting at all - but either way if she is treated for the former it can't harm I'm sure, it will only be the pancreas powders - it would be lovely if such a miracle could work!!

            I am also going to ask her to query the dropping of the extra injection (am asking hubby to do another btest in the morning before she eats) - if it were my dog I would rather see her on the 1 or 2 units twice a day. I know this sounds not much but she is the size of a bag of sugar anyway! I have asked granma to weigh her today - I reckon she is less than a kilo.

            The meds was Kaogel hubby wrote it down wrong, but from what I read it is only 0.5 to 1ml PER DAY split up into 3-4 goes per kilo of dog so maybe she should be getting 0.5ml twice a day and they read it as 5ml - this is is x10 the dose if it is the right thing I am looking up and it seems to be, it is to stop diarrhea I think it is like type of flagyl stuff you get there (I think).

            I have also started to research Additions Disease to see what that brings.

            Hopefully there will be some way forward.

            I am in a twichy mood about zeno today too - he was a bit shivery this morning, took him down garden and he did a pee etc, came back in still shivery (he usually gets that before pancreatitis spell) he is not shivery now but I am watching him like a hawk - do you see all sorts when you do this or is it me - I keep seeing him twitch and then I worry it is hypo but then I've fed him and worry it is pancreatitis. AND hopefully it is just nothing at all!! He has a wart at the moment he won't leave (did this before) and it is turned itnto a horrid graze under his throat, he has only scratched it once today, putting talc on it (medicated which usually works) but he is a right monkey with it. Right back to watching Zeno now!

            Hugs

            Sharon

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            • #7
              Re: Jenny in awful state....

              Okay, so the kaogel is an antidiarrhea med.

              I just sent an email to Jan as I see she hasn't been on here in quite a while.

              Natalie

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              • #8
                Re: Jenny in awful state....

                thanks natalie.

                vet is calling out to see jenny by monday (to save jenny getting upset).

                i'm sure its that pancreatic insufficiency, but granma did say this pm she does have a lump in her tummy, though zeno has had one for ages too (at least since 9 months).

                thanks for helping - i do visit even if im a rubbish poster.

                xxxx ps hope you doing ok..

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                • #9
                  Re: Jenny in awful state....

                  Hi Sharon,

                  Sorry I've not been here recently. Natalie kindly pm'd me to let me know about Jenny.

                  Do you know what tests have been done on her to come up with the cancer diagnosis? Was it an ultrasound? There are specific blood tests for both Pancreatitis and also EPI. The latter is called a TLI test and this is what you need to get done if it hasn't been already.

                  The problem is, if it is definitely a tumour, then I guess it could cause EPI if it's destroyed enough of the pancreas.

                  As you know, Dazzle has EPI and diabetes. Hers was caused by chronic pancreatitis where the inflammatory process destroyed not only the exocrine part of the pancreas (digestive enzymes) but also the endocrine (Diabetes).

                  I'm sure others have mentioned it but has she been tested for Cushings? It's one of the things that Toys can be prone to and certainly could cause the peeing/drinking problem. Haven't had time to go through the whole thread yet I'm afraid.

                  I wonder if your vet would consider consulting by phone or email with the specialist who looks after Dazzle? She's at Cambridge Vet School and the pancreas/diabetes etc etc are her speciality. Her name is Penny Watson and she is lovely. She will always answer any emails I send her about Dazzle and she certainly helped us turn Dazzle around. I'm sure she'd be prepared to speak with Jenny's vet about her. With you being in the Isle of Man I know it wouldn't be easy to actually get to see her.

                  Let me know if you have any specific questions and I'll do what I can to answer.
                  Jan & Dazzle (Border Collie aged 12 yrs) dx 06th February 2009. Dx Hypothyroid 12th July 2011. 6 units am & 5 units pm for this week - still trying to get her back on track. Soloxine 0.4 mgs once a day.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Jenny in awful state....

                    Per my home vet book, EPI results in "large quantities of gray diarrhea." Gray stools I think are also a sign of undigested fat. There used to be a great article on what the color of poop means and I haven't been able to find it yet.

                    But there are a lot of signs of some sort of bile or pancreatic problems.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Jenny in awful state....

                      Aw, I found it, under Characteristics and Causes of Diarrhea. From a very nice book:

                      Caring for Your Dog: The Complete Canine Home Reference
                      Dr. Bruce Fogel, DVM
                      http://www.amazon.com/Caring-Your-Do.../dp/0789489295

                      Diarrhea with Stools that are:

                      Claylike, glistening: poor digestion/absorption (pancreatic disease)

                      Pasty, light: Lack of bile from liver

                      Small amounts very frequently: irritation of colon

                      Large amounts 3-4 times a day: digestion or absorption problem in small intestines.

                      With weight loss: malabsorption

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                      • #12
                        Re: Jenny in awful state....

                        Originally posted by k9diabetes View Post
                        Per my home vet book, EPI results in "large quantities of gray diarrhea." Gray stools I think are also a sign of undigested fat. There used to be a great article on what the color of poop means and I haven't been able to find it yet.

                        But there are a lot of signs of some sort of bile or pancreatic problems.
                        Hi, Technically, yes, but in Dazzle's case she never had "putty" coloured poops. She just tended to slightly loose stools. Only once were they completely white and that was due to her bile duct being obstructed by inflammation while she was suffering an acute bout of pancreatitis.

                        Not all dogs read the text books - as my vet used to say.
                        Jan & Dazzle (Border Collie aged 12 yrs) dx 06th February 2009. Dx Hypothyroid 12th July 2011. 6 units am & 5 units pm for this week - still trying to get her back on track. Soloxine 0.4 mgs once a day.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Jenny in awful state....

                          I know Chris never did!

                          I believe they have actually seen some light stools but the bile duct is another possible source of these problems.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Jenny in awful state....

                            I had a cat with pancreas issues and his 'poo' was grey. I took him to the vet and he had pancreatitis. They put him on low fat food and he's been fine since
                            Forbin, miss you every day. See you at the bridge Buddy.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Jenny in awful state....

                              Hia Ladies and Gentlemen,

                              Only quick as I am whizzing in and out, granma says she has improved an awful lot not peeing much in house and only a few poopy mistakes, vet has increased her two two doses a day (down to 2 units), changed antibiotics to nuroclav (I asked granma to do this coz something I read about hypo with other one) and cut out kaogel. But I saw her yesterday morning and she looked really frail and not well sitting on her little bed ahh. Vet also brought round tubes of some special food that will build her up.

                              Thanks very much for caring. She defo had some greyish stools but granma said mostly white!

                              PS Zeno turned out not be be start of pancreatitis thank goodness, we are away in a couple of days and I can never look forward to trips away as I worry so about him, at the very start of pancreatitis the last time (which I thought he was getting) he got an antibiotic injection (on top of his daily nuroclav) I was half tempted to ask the vet if she could give him this as extra protection for when we are away but I suppose that is daft - what do you think?

                              Hugs

                              S

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