question about dose

[bogeysmom]

Hi, new to the forum. Thanks to all for the wealth of info.
My boy had a playdate with our other dog and a friends dog. It is probably the most activity he's had in awhile. I tested his b.g. (inner lip) at 2:53 and it was 96. Then again at 3:48 and it was 61. The meter is an accuchek aviva. He just finished dinner. His usual dose is at 24u. I plan on only giving him 15 for his after dinner shot because his numbers are so low. Am i correct in doing so.
I think I read that its usually 1/2 dose but can't recall. Any and all responses are greatly appreciated.

Thanks . Bogeys mom
:D

p.s. hope i did this right.
p.s.s will give more info about my boy later

[CarolW]

Hi Bogeys Mom, and a big, fat welcome to you!

It's very common for dogs to burn a lot of glucose during exercise, especially, heavy exercise. I think that shows quite clearly on one of the charts I made for my diabetic dog Kumbi:

There are two green stripes (rectangles) on the chart here:

http://www.coherentdog.org/vek/bgcharts8.php

Those represent only MODERATE exercise, with energy levels expended probably far less than what dogs expend playing with each other.

You can scroll down that page, to see the data table; look for the Comments - on exercise. And look at the DROP in the afternoon! something like 8 mmol/L - maybe 250 mg/dL DROP! probably partly because the timing was around the peak time for Kumbi's insulin (Novolin-NPH).

The morning drop; was large, too, but not as much as the afternoon one. Maybe read the text on that page, too, if you go there to look.

I can't seriously advise you on dose. Can you test him just before injecting him? I would!

Please report back! Also, tell us, if you would, what insulin he's on, and how much he weighs. In fact, do tell us all about him!

Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:26:23

[bogeysmom]

Hi Carol, Thanks for the quick response. The last reading i took was just before his dinner- mealtime is at 4:00 (give or take 15 mins. usually). I know the meter is giving a "guesstimate" to what his numbers are( and that they are actually higher than what it reads) but that has been the lowest reading that we've ever gotten from him. I know it's from all the running in the yard he did (he had a blast). I just didn't feel comfortable giving him a full dose even after dinner because his reading was so low. This was the first panic situation we've had since he was diagnosed and hopefully the last. thanks again

[Patty]

Hi bogeysmom,
Does he usually rise from his dinner? If so, you are probably fine but I would check him to be sure.

I've had low numbers with Ali before due to exercise. In the future I would give a snack. As you said, your 61 is probaby quite a bit higher (would be worth comparing your meter to the vet's lab machine next time you're in).

Some people give a small piece of peanut butter/bread sandwich with a little honey or karo syrup. The honey gives an immediate sugar source and the carb/protein provide longer lasting fuel for the body. Others use a chicken/honey biscuit. It might take some experiementing in the future to see what works. Try testing before exercise then after to see how far he drops.

Once you find a snack that prevents the drop, you shouldn't have to cut back insulin.

Tell us more about your boy ;)
Welcome!
Patty

[Margaret Boyle]

Hi Carol, Thanks for the quick response. The last reading i took was just before his dinner- mealtime is at 4:00 (give or take 15 mins. usually). I know the meter is giving a "guesstimate" to what his numbers are( and that they are actually higher than what it reads) but that has been the lowest reading that we've ever gotten from him. I know it's from all the running in the yard he did (he had a blast). I just didn't feel comfortable giving him a full dose even after dinner because his reading was so low. This was the first panic situation we've had since he was diagnosed and hopefully the last. thanks again

Hi Bogeys Mum,

A nice big welcome to you, this is a great forum and you will get plenty of support:)

I, like Patty know about the lows and the advice she gave you is spot on.

I will be following your thread.

Hugs

Marg

[bogeysmom]

Hi Patty, Hi Marg. Boy you guys rock. THANKS FOR ALL YOUR RESPONSES.
I'm not sure if his numbers spike after dinner. I haven't done a curve on him myself yet. Most checks have been pre dinner with #s that range anywhere from 170-358 on a check. We have done some checks a couple of times after breakfast and got readings of 236 (6 hrs. post shot) and 127 (about 5 1/2 hrs. post shot). okay, just tested again and got a reading of 147 (with a dose of 15u instead of usual 24u). will test again later, thank goodness he is so tolerant of it (to which our vet couldn't believe).

thanks Stacey aka bogeys mom

[Patty]

Thought I'd put your info here as well:

Dogs Name: Bogey

Breed: Dalmatian

Weight: 81 lbs.

Diet: Merrick Dry Food (usually Grammys Pot Pie, Turducken or
Cowboy Cookout), canned merrick food (low glycemic), cottage
cheese, or will add a ground turkey, barley and green bean
squash mixture in place of canned.

Treats: Squash

Insulin: Humulin NPH

# of Units: 24ux2

Meter: Accuchek Aviva

[Patty]

Stacey,
There's a rule of thumb I've heard many times as well on various forums:

"Don't inject if your dog is under 100 mg/dL"

Give food and wait for them to rise to a safe level.

It's great that you can test and he's so tolerant of it! When was he diagnosed?

Patty

[bogeysmom]

Thanks for moving it, wasn't sure where to put it. Could you fix his weight for me (it won't let me edit it.) his real weight is 81 pounds.

[bogeysmom]

Okay missed a day yesterday. (Long day at work :eek:). So...
Bogey did good thru the night (wed). I tested him again before i went to bed and he was at 184.
In the morning I tested again before breakfast and he was at 297 ( which I thought was pretty good considering he didn't get a full shot.


He was diagnosed in september 09. Took him to the vet after he kept having "accidents" in the house (which he never has done since puppyhood) and noticed him drinking alot more water. He also had some difficulty with his back legs (which I think was partly neuropathy but he also has hip/ disc problems). If I remember correctly--- I think his inital #s were in the 500-600's . Thankfully no ketones.

Our vet kept him overnight to get readings and the insulin started.
Needless to say, I was nervous about having to give him shots. Our vet gave the basic info to get started. Sent us home with a few needles and some ketodiastix to test.

After a few nervous days of shot giving (me, my hubby & the dog) things finally got easier. Luckily for us Bogey is very food oriented. So at shot time he actually lays down and waits. He knows he's going to get some squash (so he could really care less about the shots.)

I found this forum a week or two after his diagnosis and have probably driven my vet crazy since. When I mentioned home testing ( and the lip), he just chuckled and said yea, let me know how that goes.
We finally started testing him in December (but have yet to do a curve) and when we told the vet he was suprised (especially when we said we test on the inner lip). Apparently none of his other "clients" have had any success.

Sorry about the rambling but this forum has really helped me learn everything I need to know to take care of my boy. He is 9 1/2 yrs old and the biggest bad #$@# (or so he thinks) who is really the biggest marshmallow and cry baby with his mom & dad.
Thanks for reading and thats to all of you and your furbabies for this forum

[k9diabetes]

That's great that you were able to educate the vet about how easy it can be to test blood sugar at home! :) That's how progress is made in getting more and more vets to encourage people to home test their dogs.

What a great "patient" he is to sit and wait! :)

Chris always got a mini milkbone after each injection and he used to get a little impatient with me - like "let's hurry it up would you - I want my milkbone!!"

If you take the time to do a curve at home, you will get a picture of when his blood sugar tends to be highest and lowest. This can be really helpful when you get a lowish number at meal time.

If your dog's curve is a valley - it goes lower between meals, then rises back to a higher number, then you know that if the BG is low at meal time it is going to go even lower after food and insulin and you can reduce the dose of insulin to avoid low blood sugar.

Some dogs' curves are mountains - the blood sugar is lowest at meal time, rises to the highest level in between, and then drops down to that lowest level again by the next meal. In those cases, the premeal BG is about as low as it's going to go and if it's in a safe range you don't have to adjust the insulin dose.

Hope that makes sense!

So it would be helpful to you in cases like this in the future to do a curve and see what Bogey's pattern is.

Natalie

[bogeysmom]

That's great that you were able to educate the vet about how easy it can be to test blood sugar at home! :) That's how progress is made in getting more and more vets to encourage people to home test their dogs.

What a great "patient" he is to sit and wait! :)

Chris always got a mini milkbone after each injection and he used to get a little impatient with me - like "let's hurry it up would you - I want my milkbone!!"

If you take the time to do a curve at home, you will get a picture of when his blood sugar tends to be highest and lowest. This can be really helpful when you get a lowish number at meal time.

If your dog's curve is a valley - it goes lower between meals, then rises back to a higher number, then you know that if the BG is low at meal time it is going to go even lower after food and insulin and you can reduce the dose of insulin to avoid low blood sugar.

Some dogs' curves are mountains - the blood sugar is lowest at meal time, rises to the highest level in between, and then drops down to that lowest level again by the next meal. In those cases, the premeal BG is about as low as it's going to go and if it's in a safe range you don't have to adjust the insulin dose.

Hope that makes sense!

So it would be helpful to you in cases like this in the future to do a curve and see what Bogey's pattern is.

Natalie

Hi Natalie
I know what you mean about waiting for the treat. It makes us laugh sometimes because thats all he wants. Thanks for your video on how you used to test him on his lip. After I saw that I kind of figured that we could do the same with Bogey (so long as he got his treat after).

I decided to try a curve today and realized that I only had six strips left so I was going to test after every 2 1/2 hrs. So naturally I waste the first strip b/c I can't get enough blood. I then went with every 3 hours then (give or take). the following are his results:

4:00 am. 286 pre breakfast (breakfast at 4:05 & shot at 4:20)

6:50 a.m. 82

9:48 a.m. 169

12:46 p.m. 395

3:41 p.m. 405


NOTE: Had gone back to sleep after his first test this morning and later discovered that my husband had taken him for a walk about 30-45 minutes after his breakfast & shot. He usually only goes on one 1-3 times a week. I know you (Natalie) had said that that usually dropped Chris' #s also (if I remember correctly).
I know it could have been a misread, but beings I only had 3 strips left I really didn't want to waste it. The last two readings I got after I had stuck Bogey 2 times before getting any blood. Im sure some of you can imagine my frustration :eek:
The good sport that he is, none of this phased Bogey in the least. He got his squash and all is well in doggy dome.

I have more strips ordered and plan to try another curve on my next day off with no walk involved.
Any and all thoughts on his #s are welcome. :o

[k9diabetes]

I made the video four years after I started home testing Chris' blood sugar. So it looks SO easy there but you would have cracked up if you had seen a video of us the first week we tried home testing!

Yup, exercise can really drop their blood sugar! So that probably had a lot to do with his lower numbers in the morning.

I think it's possible that when the insulin gets put to work so strongly from the exercise, that also may exhaust the insulin early, resulting in higher blood sugar later. It's only a theory of mine but it makes sense to me that if you use the insulin to drop the BG early, you won't have as much left later.

Exercise has to be timed carefully. If you can do a curve soon with no exercise, you will be able to see where the food and insulin combine by themselves to give Bogey the lowest blood sugar during the day. That would then be a time not to walk him. Better to walk him when his blood sugar is kind of middlin' with room to drop some from the exercise and possibly give him a snack before the exercise (just a milkbone sized snack maybe) to help keep his blood sugar level.

Natalie