Hi - new to the forum and canine diabetes

[loulou]

Hi

I'm Lou and my 7 year old Weimaraner, Blue, was diagnosed with diabetes in mid January. To complicate matters he also has acute pancreatitis, diagnosed at the same time. He also has conjunctivitis bless him.

My main concern is that he is dangerously underweight despite 5 full meals a day. Obviously because of his pancretitis we have to be careful of what we feed him. He is on a diet of Hills i/d and white fish and chicken, also he has bloated and torsioned so we need to be careful that we don't over feed him.

He is on caninsulin twice per day, we started on 15 units per day and we are now on 29. His fructosamine test was 622 on Jan 21st, he has been having them roughly every two weeks and they are not coming down at all. He is also having a weekly vitamin B injection now.

I am that concerned about him we've also seen an holistic vet who prescribed carsinosin 200c 1 tablet a day for 5 days and syzigium 6c/iris vers 6c 1 tablet twice daily for 10 days. We need to go back in two weeks. We don't like him on the hills i/d and neither does the holistic vet but even she felt we needed to get his diabetes under control before we make any more changes to his diet.

He is currently at the vets for a glucose curve. We can collect him at 6.30pm. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.

Is it usual for it to take so long to get the condition under control? What else can we do other than increase the insulin, that doesn't appear to be working.

Blue is a lovely, polite, kind, middle aged man, his nick name is the dog father, it's breaking our hearts to see him so poorly. He is still bright in himself and still full of fun but so so skinny.

Any support or ideas as to what more we can do to help him will be gratefully received.

Sorry for the long post.

[Patty]

Re: Hi - new to the forum and canine diabetes

Hi Lou and welcome!

Sounds like you've had a time of it. You mentioned Caninsulin so I'm guessing you aren't in the states. The maker of this insulin has had some trouble and Vetsulin as it's known to us is no longer readily available here.

How much does Blue weigh?

What times and how much is he fed at those times?

It looks like carsinosin is a remedy used sometimes for endocrine disorders as well as cancer. Can you tell us more about your vet's use of it for Blue?

Syzygium Jambolanum - Has an immediate effect of increasing the blood sugar, glycosuria results. A most useful remedy in diabetes mellitus. No other remedy causes in so marked degree the diminution and disappearance of sugar in the urine. prickly heat in upper part of the body; small red pimples itch violently. Great thirst, weakness, emaciation. Very large amounts of urine, specific gravity high. Old ulcers of skin. Diabetic ulceration. http://www.abchomeopathy.com/r.php/syzy

Iris Versicolor - Thyroid, Pancreas, salivary, intestinal glands, and gastro-intestinal mucous membrane, are especially affected. Increases the flow of bile. Sick headaches and cholera morbus are a special therapeutic field for its action. http://www.abchomeopathy.com/r.php/Iris

It's good to hear Blue is having a curve done today. Has he had others done as well?

Personally, I'm not a big fan of fructosamines in general as they don't tell you what the highest or lowest blood sugar has been. You could have a dog with a bg (blood glucose) range of 70-500 mg/dL (or 3.8-27.7 mmol/l) and the average would show in the 200s (11mmol/l). I think your money is well spent on doing the curve as you are able to see the highs/lows and how well the food and insulin are working together.

What were the reference ranges for his last fructosamine?

It does sometimes take a while to achieve regulation and to find a good balance. Let us know how his curve comes out. That will help a great deal in sorting things out.

Have you ever considered home testing with a glucometer?

Again welcome!
Patty

[janspack]

Re: Hi - new to the forum and canine diabetes

Hi Lou,

Welcome to the list. I pop in and out now and then (usually when things are getting abit out of control which I know is naughty). I noticed that Blue has problems with pancreatitis. This is how my dog (Dazzle) started out on this road. She had several bouts of acute pancreatitis over a period before she was diagnosed with diabetes (probably around a year in all). This eventually destroyed her pancreas to the point where now she has diabetes and Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency.

The latter (EPI) means that they no longer produce the enzymes to help digest food and I was wondering if this might be part of the reason you can't get weight on Blue at the moment. It might be worth asking your vet about this. It can be tested for with a special blood test. Pancreatitis as you know doubt know, can result in the digestive enzymes actually digesting the pancreas itself. It can turn chronic as it did in Dazzle where she was not well but not in the sort of pain they have with acute pancreatitis.

Like you, I'm not a fan of prescription diets (nor dry food at all to be honest) and despite my vet's reservations, I decided to keep her on the raw diet I had started about 6 months before. I do add in some wholemeal biscuit as I found this helped to stop her having hypos (low BG). It's difficult with raw food to always be sure you are giving them the same every meal so I've found the biscuit helps to even things out.

I do hope that Blue is soon stabilised and that he doesn't have EPI as well but if he has, it's not difficult to treat - Dazzle has two capsules of digestive enzymes with each meal. Now I'm fighting to get her weight down!

[loulou]

Re: Hi - new to the forum and canine diabetes

Thanks so much for you replies. I will try to answer everything but forgive me if I miss anything and prompt me. I need all the help I can get.

They have carried out a glucose curve and it's confirmed he is insulin resistant. This could be caused just by his pancreatitis or additional factors, there is nothing we can do for that except diet so I may need to get a specialist advice. He showed no symptoms of pnacreatitis other than the weight lose, it was identified as part of the testing process. He didn't have the runs and wasn't sick. He has a good appetite despite being so skinny.

We feed him at 6am, insulin at 6.30.
Roughly 9am
Roughly 12pm
Roughly2.30
6pm and insulin at 6.30

They did show me his curve but I didn't get a copy, it did move down with the insulin but only slightly. In his first curve test he was 33 something, he was now in his late 20s and neved came down further than mid twenties. I can get the detailed information if it's helpful.

The other possibilities for the resistance are a UTI which can be treated with antibiotics or malabsorbtion. If it's malabsorbtion then they will look at changing his insulin. We just have to wait now. The results should be back in a day or two. I'll post as soon as they come in. You guys are so helpful. My other doggy forum has been a fantastic emotional source of support but I'm the only one on their whose dog has diabetes so no one has any first hand experience.

The vet confirmed that the initial tests ruled out cushings and today he's had an abdominal scan which has ruled out anything sinister in his tummy. As you can image we are massively relieved.

We are still keeping everything crossed that it is simply a complex diabetes case and we'll get there in the end.

I am seeing two different vets a homeopathic one and a regular one. I am hoping between them they can sought him out.

He weighs 27kgs and he is 27inches at the withers. He is skin and bone which is really worrying me. He should be 8/10kgs heavier.

He has lypex capsules with his food. He did have a pancreatic powder initally but had a rare reaction to it and ended up with abrasions in his mouth. Only 2 dogs in the whole country have been reported to have had this reaction!

[Patty]

Re: Hi - new to the forum and canine diabetes

Hi Lou,
Out of curiosity what country are you in?

So Blue is 27 kg (59.5 lbs). And to clarify, he's on 29u twice a day? Typically true insulin resistance isn't seen until a dog is at 1 unit of insulin per pound (2 units per kg) and still has high blood sugar.

Can you get a copy of his curve results to post here? That would help quite a bit in offering some suggestions. I'm assuming they fed him at the same times and as you would at home while he was there?

Where are you currently injecting Blue's insulin?

It sounds like they took a urine sample for analysis and culture. That's good to hear.

Let us know on the details of the curve
Patty

[k9diabetes]

Re: Hi - new to the forum and canine diabetes

Hi Lou,

Please do get a copy of the details of the curve and post them here.

I think it's premature to label him insulin resistant. Since his blood sugar is getting down into the 300s, he is responding to the insulin. I wouldn't consider a dog resistant to insulin unless he was getting twice as many units per injection as Blue is getting and the blood sugar wasn't budging. Some dogs just naturally need more than the average amount.

Any stress, inflammation, or infection tends to raise the blood sugar and need for insulin. Blue has both pancreatitis and conjunctivitis and possibly a UTI apparently going on now or recently so he has a lot of reasons to have higher blood sugar!

Are they planning to now raise his insulin dose?

I'm anxious to see the curve.

Natalie

[loulou]

Re: Hi - new to the forum and canine diabetes

Hi I'm based near Leeds in Yorkshire, England.

He doesn't kennel well so we know that he will have been stressed in the hospital.

I gave him boxes of food with the times he needed them on them so I'm hoping they stuck as much to his home routine as they could.

They are not doing anything further until the results of the tests come back. We have a bank holiday here coming up so if I don't hear tomorrow it will be next week.

I'm going to ask them to send me all his test results including these recent ones when they come back and I'll post them.

Thanks for your help, this is a very steep learning curve for us.

We were told to inject him anywhere across his shoulders and neck. He was obviously very uncomfortable this morning as he moved when I injected him. I ended up part in one place and part in another. He is ordinarily an exceptional patient, he has been know not to even get out of bed.

[loulou]

Re: Hi - new to the forum and canine diabetes

The dog father has been very well today he's even wanted to go to the park and chase the ball. We've not let him go far obviously but it was heart warming to see him so perky.

The tests aren't back, it'll be next week now due to the long bank holiday.

[ladysmom06]

Re: Hi - new to the forum and canine diabetes

Hi Lou,

Welcome to you and Blue.

Great to hear that he's doing better. Good luck to you and Blue.

[Noodle]

Re: Hi - new to the forum and canine diabetes

Hi Lou & Blue - Welcome!

I'm glad the dog father is starting to feel better & more playful and hope it continues. Referring to him as the dog father made me laugh out loud when I read it.

[loulou]

Re: Hi - new to the forum and canine diabetes

Blue is very poorly and in the hospital.

He was sick after breakfast so I took him to the vet. She checked him over and tested his blood, his glucose was off the scale. She considered admitting him but as he's still losing weight and he stresses at the vets she said to take him home and watch him closely.

He is now 25.65kg

When we got home I checked his urine and his ketones are sky high. I rang the vet to let thme know we'd be coming back in.The vet needs to try to get him stable. I've been told he won't be home today.

I am going out of my mind with worry. I am so scared he's not going to get better.

[Patty]

Re: Hi - new to the forum and canine diabetes

Lou,
I'm so glad you tested for ketones and took him back in. With ketones that high he should be hospitalized so they can give subcutaneous fluids and bring his blood sugar down. Please keep us posted.
Patty

[loulou]

Re: Hi - new to the forum and canine diabetes

I have just spoken to the vet. He is no more poorly than his was this morning but he's no better either. They have done a whole load of tests non of the results of which are helping them understand how to make him better. On top of everything else he is anemic and has reduced liver enzymes. He is on a drip and having insulin every two hours. He hasn't been sick again and is eating well.

She said his protein is oaky so it doesn't make sense that he is so thin.

She said he's resonably settled in his kennel which is a worry as if he was even a little better he'd be causing a fuss wanting to be let out.

Can someone please reassure me that they have been down this road with there best pal and have now come out the other side. It's breaking my heart to see him so ill. I need hope that he will get better.

[Patty]

Re: Hi - new to the forum and canine diabetes

Lou,
You can google DKA (diabetic ketoacidosis) to learn more. It is a dangerous situation but with fluids and lowering blood sugar is treatable.

Weight loss is common in dogs newly diagnosed. When there isn't enough insulin to allow glucose into the cells, it stays in the bloodstream and the cells essentially starve for nutrition. As the blood sugar becomes better controlled you should see Blue's weight stabilize.

Has your vet treated many diabetic dogs before? Unfortunately there are some that just don't have adequate knowledge of this disease.

At one point there was mention of getting a copy of Blue's curve from the clinic. Can you do that while you're there? It sounds like his insulin level is still fairly low.

I'm glad Blue isn't too stressed out and has settled there for know. Have they updated you on his blood sugar and ketone levels?

Patty

[ladysmom06]

Re: Hi - new to the forum and canine diabetes

Lou,

So sorry to hear that Blue is in the hospital.

He hasn't been sick again and is eating well.

That's a good sign that he's eating well. Hoping he's feeling better real soon and home with you again.


Keeping the two of you in my thoughts and prayers. Please keep us posted on how he's doing.