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Is Insulin Really Necessary?

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  • Is Insulin Really Necessary?

    Prior to Riley's diagnosis, the only experience I ever had with diabetes was a few years ago when my brother was diagnosed. He changed his diet and started exercising, and tested his glucose levels every day. He became well regulated within a few weeks without using insulin. In fact, his doctor never even put insulin on the table as a possibility.

    Our vet said that diabetic dogs always have to use insulin, a statement that has always nagged at the back of my naturally skeptical brain. If people can regulate their glucose levels without using exogenous insulin, why not dogs too? Is it because Big Pharma (aka Eli Lilly, Novolin, et al) says so?

    In searching around for a variety of diets for Riley, I came across this fascinating web page, bookmarked it, but never read it until last night (sure, it's a little "sales-y", but what isn't on the net these days?):
    http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/dia...d-eat-fat.html

    Is it possible that removing all of the fat from Riley's diet is doing more harm than good?

    After reading about vanadium, I wanted to see independent confirmation of its effectiveness, and found this article:
    http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/26/4/1277.full

    It's interesting that all of these studies for humans are first tested on dogs, and if they're effective, they move on to human trials. My question is, if some of these natural remedies have been effective in canine laboratory studies, why aren't we taking them seriously? Frankie thinks aloe vera might be the reason her dog's blood glucose level dropped (see this thread: http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/show...highlight=aloe). The American Diabetes Association study linked above lists aloe vera as one of the botanicals with potential.

    Most veterinarians are just like most human doctors, that is, trained in the traditional methods and to rely on manufactured drugs to cure disease. Many of you have had to educate your vets about Cushings and diabetes. If they can't keep abreast of developments in these two diseases, it is unrealistic to expect our traditionally trained vets to say, "eat this plant and call me in the morning."

    Perhaps it's time we take a serious look at results in human clinical trials and take advantage of the well-worn phrase, "Just because it works in dogs doesn't mean it will work in humans." Precisely! If it works in dogs, is it time that we use these animal studies to our pet's advantage and figure out ways to lower blood glucose with diet and herbs and botanicals, instead of relying solely on injected insulin?
    Last edited by O'Riley; 04-27-2010, 08:02 AM.

  • #2
    Re: Is Insulin Really Necessary?

    Interesting thoughts and investigations!

    I'm far too distracted and tired to look into this seriously at the moment, but I like it that you Question Everything. It's good policy, and sometimes leads to finding useful solutions.

    Doing such investigations well requires careful study and assessment. I think you're capable of that.

    Tue, 27 Apr 2010 08:09:33 (PDT)
    http://www.coherentdog.org/
    CarolW

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    • #3
      Re: Is Insulin Really Necessary?

      Yes it is! the diabetes we experience in dogs is typically aligned with human type 1 diabetes, not type 2 which can be very effectively managed with diet and exercise.
      Type 1 diabetes: results from the body's failure to produce insulin, and presently requires insulin.
      Type 2 diabetes: results from insulin resistance, a condition in which cells fail to use insulin properly, sometimes combined with an absolute insulin deficiency

      When we become detectives for our diabetic pets, we do find foods, supplements, medicines, natural supplements that can affect BG positively or negatively. I do agree that doctors need to be open minded to more than traditional methods. We've seen vets on this board that insist on perscription diets, that don't believe in monitoring BGs as they feel they vary too much in dogs and only clinical signs should be considered etc. The trick is finding one that will work with you and doing the detective work to determine what works for your pet. When you have a vet that knows you are going to consistently look for solutions to improve your pets health, they will listen and help determine if something is positive or negative. Finding one is the hard part.
      Forbin, miss you every day. See you at the bridge Buddy.

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      • #4
        Re: Is Insulin Really Necessary?

        I was just about to come back and remark on the acknowledged need for insulin, and the difference between Type 1 and Type 2 diabetes, but luckily, Peggy beat me to it, as she knows her stuff [grin]. These are really rather the basics of the workings of diabetes.

        Since I'm falling asleep at the keyboard, I'll go invite Kumbi to join me in a nap for a while.

        I DO want to mention that it's very easy to get people started on looking for alternatives that miss the essentials of reality. It can be difficult and very time-consuming to search out reliable information on the Internet, especially when you're not a vet, and don't have access to veterinary resources. I suppose the question remains whether it's possible for any of us who aren't vets to review the literature properly.

        Tue, 27 Apr 2010 08:38:00 (PDT)
        http://www.coherentdog.org/
        CarolW

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        • #5
          Re: Is Insulin Really Necessary?

          Unfortunately, there's no getting around injecting insulin with diabetic dogs. Dogs don't become insensitive to insulin the way Type 2 diabetic people do. Their immune system attacks the cells in the pancreas that produce insulin and destroys them. So they entirely lose the ability to produce their own insulin.

          Cats have more like a Type 2 diabetes and with diet changes they often can come off of insulin eventually.

          It's actually always good, I think, to avoid doing too much comparing of humans and dogs or humans and cats with diabetes. There are actually quite a few differences in how it plays out. Especially in terms of how insulins are processed. Cats need long acting basal type insulins while dogs don't do well at all on those and generally do best with the intermediate insulins. Dogs get cataracts easily; cats rarely do. Cats are highly susceptible to neuropathy while usually only dogs with very high blood sugar get neuropathy.

          Fortunately, generally dogs do not suffer some of the worst side effects of diabetes that people with Type 1 diabetes do. They don't have to have organ transplants or limbs amputated. We have occasionally dealt with someone who was so scared about their dog's diabetes because they had seen terrible consequences in a person they knew. But dogs do much better than people actually in tolerating higher blood sugar.

          Natalie

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          • #6
            Re: Is Insulin Really Necessary?

            Okay, now I'm really confused, but doesn't insulin induced hypoglycemia (Somogyi) prove that diabetic dogs do retain the ability to produce insulin on their own?

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            • #7
              Re: Is Insulin Really Necessary?

              Insulin-induced hypoglycemia comes from injecting too much insulin.

              Given a massive injected overdose, as one dog I know of did, the blood sugar can drop to zero because the insulin pulls it all out of the bloodstream, the brain starves because there's no glucose supplied to it, and the dog dies.

              Our dog was a rare one who for a while after diagnose was still producing insulin. He managed it for six months before his pancreas' insulin producing cells gave out entirely. I believe this happens only in cases where the diabetes is caught very early.

              He was started on 14 units twice a day and each time we tested him, his blood sugar was low normal - between 70 and 90. So we would drop the insulin dose 2 units, wait a week, and test again. Same result. His dose went down, down, down. 14, 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2. And always his curves looked the same. At one point he was on 1 unit and weighed 62 pounds.

              Then pretty abruptly his insulin-producing ability was exhausted and his blood sugar shot back up.

              I think what happens is his body needed a certain amount of insulin, say 14 units, and when we injected 14 his pancreas didn't add any more. When we injected 8 units, his pancreas produced the additional 6 units. So his blood sugar was completely normal the entire time with his pancreas producing enough insulin to make up for what we didn't inject.

              Which is a good thing.

              If his pancreas decided to produce all of his insulin despite our injecting it, he would have gotten way too much.

              Natalie

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              • #8
                Re: Is Insulin Really Necessary?

                Hi Rosey,
                I think the others answered most of your questions regarding the need for insulin and the comparison of dogs to type 1 diabetics.

                I just wanted to comment on the nutrition article regarding the effect of fats on blood sugar. It's true that most human diabetes educators include information such as related in this article in their nutrition information. However, dogs seem to be more prone to pancreatitis which can be brought on by fats in the diet. Thus fiber is emphasized more to help with blood sugar control.

                Most supplements on the market are geared toward making the body more sensitive to insulin, which is why they don't work in a body that doesn't produce it's own insulin.

                Combination therapy can be helpful in some cases when insulin is being replaced in a type 1 diabetic or in type 2 diabetics that are more insulin resisitant, such as chromium. But you always have to use caution when adding a product that makes the body more sensitive to insulin since you are replacing a complex hormonal system with injected insulin. It may result in a dramatic decrease in blood sugar or show no response at all depending on how it works within the body.

                With the somogyi effect, as Natalie pointed out, too much insulin is injected pulling the glucose out of the bloodstream. This causes the liver to release stored glucose to try to save the body, hence the higher blood sugar that can be seen with "rebound." However, if too much insulin was injected it can overwhelm the body's safety response and death results.

                It's interesting the article you referenced that lists aloe, such as what Frankie experimented with. It looks like soluable fiber plays a role: "Aloe gel, obtained from the inner portion of the leaves, contains glucomannan, a hydrosoluble fiber which may in part account for its hypoglycemic effects (39). " http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/26/4/1277.full

                Take care,
                Patty
                Patty and Ali 13.5yrs 47lbs diagnosed May '08 Ali earned her wings October 27, 2012, 4 months after diagnosis of a meningioma ~ Time is precious ~

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                • #9
                  Re: Is Insulin Really Necessary?

                  The upcoming June issue of Dog Fancy has an interesting article discussing herbs and diabetes in our dogs.

                  Eileen/Mildred

                  Eileen and Mildred, 12 yo Border Collie Mx, 24.6 pounds, dx diabetic/hypothyroid 2004, gallbladder removed 2005, cataract surgery 2005, spindle cell sarcoma removed 2009, stroke 2009, tail removed 2011, dx with bladder cancer 2011, CDS, Organix~chicken / NPH,Humalog

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