New from Germany

[alfix]

I have read and learned a lot these past few months in your forum. Thank You.

Me and my dog Xena live in Germay. My dog has been diagnosed with diabetes four months ago. First we tried Caninsulin (Vetsulin) which has never worked for us.

Now Xena is on Lantus. Do you have any other dogs which are on Lantus?

Currently we feed about 4g carbohydrates in the morning and evening but we really have trouble getting her regulated.

Most of the day we have readings between 100 and 200 but sometimes she just shoots up to 300ish readings. I really have no idea why this happens.

We have tried everything from reducing carbohyates to reducing insulin or increasing insulin but with no result.

Unfortunately my vet does not prescibe any short regulating insulin.


regards
Markus

PS; Xena is a PON and she is about 50 pounds

[peggy0]

Hi Markus

Welcome to the forum. Yes there are folks here that have experience with Lantus. Do you home test? If so have you done a curve lately to see what Xena's numbers are over a period of time? Sometimes dogs have a food spike a few hours after eating. Sometimes when they get nervous it shoots up. If her readings are between 100 and 200 most of the time you are doing great!! Let us know about the curve. you'll get great advise here.

[Patty]

Hi Markus and welcome!

As Peggy said, if you have had a curve done recently that would help us out a lot if you could post the results here.

What/when does Xena currently eat?
Is she on 1 injection per day or 2?
How many units does she currently get?

I do know of 2 dogs on Lantus right now that are getting really good results. I actually tried it with my dog as she is raw fed with fewer carbohydrates. Unfortunately it wasn't a good match for us.

Glad to have you here :)
Patty

[alfix]

Hi,

that is what I thought, that she sometimes gets nervous. But unfortunately that is not the case. I really check almost every hour. The problem is that it shoots up without any reason. Even if she lies at her favorite place, she can shoot up antoher 100 mg/dl without disturbance.

regards
Markus

[ozzi]

Hi Markus,
I'm just curious if Xena had any testing for Cushing's or if the vet thought that might be a concern?
Kevin

[alfix]

Yes, I test at home, about ten times a day.

We have tested her for cushing and everything, but without result. After she was diagnosed with diabetes we have visited five different vets.
I must admit that vets in Germany absolutely have no knowledge of diabetes in dogs.


Problem is, that she can have a normal day betwen 100 and 200 and than the next day she is above 300.

I will post the next curve I can get from her


Markus

[Patty]

Markus,
Also,
What/when does Xena currently eat?
Is she on 1 injection per day or 2?
How many units does she currently get?

Thanks,
Patty

[alfix]

Hi Patty,

You are the best.

She gets a meal at 07.00am and 07.00pm. She is on two injections per day.
That is 10 units per injection.

Carbohyrates is 4g per meal. On Lantus I cannot feed a lot of carbs. I tried more but that does not work.

regards
Markus

[Patty]

Markus,
You had asked me in a message about my experience using Lantus with Ali. The server won't let me reply to it tonight for some reason but I managed to copy it and wanted to post it here anyway for others:

Lantus lasted longer than 12 hours in my dog but not 24 hours. So we had quite a bit of overlap I was trying to manage. I also got a very large drop in blood sugar from about hour 9 or 10 to hour 12 that was give or take around 100 points.

I really didn't want to add a fast acting insulin. My dog has allergies and isn't always predictable with her blood sugar due to this. So I didn't want to add a fast acting insulin to cover meals. When I raise her dose to cover the meals, then we got a drop later once the food was digested. I tried splitting her meals up more evenly into every 4 hours (which is hard over night) but I still got a drop late in her curve.

Lantus has proven in studies to be unpredictable in dogs. Some do really well, others not as much. And of course diet plays into that as well due to the flat action profile of this insulin.

Feel free to ask any questions. I think once you have a recent curve to post, we may be able to help more specifically.

There aren't many dogs using Lantus but I'd like to see how Xena's responding to it to see if something can be worked out further before considering another insulin.

Take care!
Patty

[Patty]

Tell me more specifically about what you are feeding and when. And what type of carb is the 4g?

I'm going to be signing off for the night but will check back in tomorrow :)

[alfix]

Hi Patty,

I don`t suppose that you know our food in Germany:

http://www.royal-canin.de/hund/produkte/beim-tierarzt/veterinary-diet/diabetic-special-low-carbohydratebrfeuchtnahrung.html

But that is a dog food with a lot of fibre and 4% carbs.

And i also give:

http://www.zooplus.de/shop/hunde/hundefutter_nassfutter/rinti/rinti_dose/7442

That is without any carbs.

[alfix]

I feed 3.2 oz of Royal Canin (i hope 100 grams = 3.2oz). That means 0.13 oz carbohydrates per meal.

The other food is without carbs.

Markus

[k9diabetes]

Hi Markus!

Welcome to you and Xena.

If you have records of the readings you have done recently, that would be very helpful. We could look them over for patterns that would tell us whether she is spiking from food or maybe has ovelaps of the insulin.

If you keep records in Excel or some other software, you can forward the file to me at k9diabetes@gmail.com.

You also should be able to obtain Isophane / NPH there... perhaps you will need a prescription from your veterinarian for your dog. It's an excellent insulin for most dogs so is another alternative and probably a lot less expensive than Lantus.

Our friend Kathy is very knowledgeable about insulin policies in various countries, including Germany. With your permission, I can send her your email address and she could advise you about options for Isophane (NPH in the states).

And then in the meantime, please do post some of your many blood sugar readings.

You don't have to worry too much about blood sugar if it is usually in the 100s and 200s and only occasionally goes into the 300s. It is not ideal but it's not a crisis either.

Natalie

[CarolW]

A last attempt to post a welcome to you, Markus and Xena, before I'm off to bed. (server errors)

Wed, 12 May 2010 23:33:10 (PDT)

[CarolW]

Gosh; the error I had must have been the result of something I had in my post! Because this time, I could post - but not the stuff I'd written.

Anyway, welcome to you; I look forward to your further reports!

Wed, 12 May 2010 23:35:06 (PDT)

[Patty]

Hi Patty,

I don`t suppose that you know our food in Germany:

http://www.royal-canin.de/hund/produkte/beim-tierarzt/veterinary-diet/diabetic-special-low-carbohydratebrfeuchtnahrung.html

But that is a dog food with a lot of fibre and 4% carbs.

And i also give:

http://www.zooplus.de/shop/hunde/hundefutter_nassfutter/rinti/rinti_dose/7442

That is without any carbs.

Markus,
We do have Royal Canin here but I don't see the canned that you are giving on the US website. I translated your sites here for any others that are reading:
Royal Canin
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.royal-canin.de%2Fhund%2Fprodukte%2Fbeim-tierarzt%2Fvet-diet%2Fdiabetic-special-low-carbohydratebrfeuchtnahrung%2Finhaltsstoffe.html&sl=de&tl=en

Rinti
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zooplus.de%2Fshop%2Fhunde%2Fhun defutter_nassfutter%2Frinti%2Frinti_dose%2F7442&sl=de&tl=en Which type of this food are you feeding?

Look forward to seeing some of Xena's numbers when you get a chance. :)
Take care,
Patty

[alfix]

Hi everyone,

I tried to do a curve on Saturday but unfortunately Xena stole some kibble from my parents' Golden Retriever. :mad: That evening she had a blood glucose level of 500mg/dl. So I decided to give her some Actrapid which brought it down again to about 200mg/dl but of course my curve was ruined. Normally I do not give any fast acting insulin but I always keep it in the fridge for emergencies like this.

Since I usually have to work during the week it is difficult for me to do a curve on work days.

This morning, when we got up, she was at 230 mg/dl. I'll try to add more readings from today when I get home.

@Patty
As for the Rinti food. We only feed beef, wild and lamb.

@Natalie
In Germany we need a prescription from a vet for our insulin and it is very difficult (near to impossible in my region) to find one who does prescribe something different than Caninsulin.

Markus

UPDATE:

06:40 230 mg/dl
06:45 food and 10 units Lantus
07:00 walk (40 min)
16:10 270 mg/dl
16:30 walk (50 min)
17:30 165 mg/dl
18:40 169 mg/dl
18:45 food and 10 units Lantus
19:30 walk (30 min)
20:00 133 mg/dl
21:15 196 mg/dl

Between 08:00 and 16:00 she was at my parents.

[Patty]

Markus,
How's Xena doing?
Patty

[alfix]

Hi Patty,

when we got up today she was at 167mg/dl but after walking her she was down to 74mg/dl. Gave her some kibble after that. It has always been a big problem for us that she drops a lot when I walk her. Sometimes, after walking her for 50 minutes, she would just drop from 300mg/dl to 100mg/dl.

Thank god my sister is testing her today while I am at work.

Markus

[peggy0]

Hi Markus,

Many here at the forum have to give their dog a treat before their walk to sustain their BG. You may want to try that!

[Patty]

Hi Markus,
I completely missed the update you put in your last post with the curve. I'll have to go back and look at that today.
Patty

[Patty]

I put Xena's numbers into a chart from May 18th.

http://k9diabetes.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=120&pictureid=812

It looks like she gets a pretty good drop with her afternoon walk here, but you'd mentioned dropping this morning too. Sounds like 100 - 200 points sometimes? I'd try as Peggy said to give a snack before her walk and see if that helps.

You could do some testing before and after to see what type of snack works for her. You might consider even giving it as much as 30 minutes before you walk so it's had a chance to get into the bloodstream.

Keep us posted. :) And let us know if you get a full curve on her or even just the variation of spot checks you get from day to day as you said she can fluctuate quite a bit. Lantus doesn't work for all dogs. But I do know of a couple of really great success stories.

Take care,
Patty

[alfix]

The main problem are the drops after her walks. Other than that she has a very flat curve.

I'm guessing that she had a rebound this morning because now (at 18:00) she is at 360mg/dl. Takes a while to get down from these numbers.

I am going to try giving her some treats before I walk her as you suggested. Thanks everyone.