Mickey Has diabetes possible Cushings too

[Mickey'sMom]

HI Im new to this forum but have been posting at caninecushings.net for a little over a week, Mickey my 15 lb bichon/poodle has diabetes.:( he is on 4 units of Vetsulin 2 times a day.. I have a quick question to ask. Do all dogs with diabetes go blind? any feedback is greatly appreciated!:o

[k9diabetes]

Hi Dori!!

I just saw your thread over at the Cushings board and am very happy to hear that Mickey has started insulin.

But... I think these forums need something besides a frownie face you can use to express how you feel!!! ;)

Regarding your question...

Many dogs with diabetes do go blind from cataracts caused by the high blood sugar. The best thing you can do to avoid cataracts, and sometimes it isn't possible to avoid them, is to get really good control over Mickey's blood sugar right away and maintain it. Once the cataracts get going, it can be impossible to stop them so you want to try to prevent them from starting.

Here's a link to a really good page about diabetes-induced cataracts: http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&C=&A=1945&SourceID=

In my four plus years associated with forums for diabetic dogs I've seen some dogs who never got cataracts, some who developed them slowly over time, and some who developed them very quickly. I'd say about a third of the dogs I'm acquainted with eventually had cataract surgery.

Many of us chose not to do the surgery or our dogs weren't good candidates. Usually, blindness is something dogs deal with fairly well, much better than their people do. So if it happens, know it's not the end of the world. My dog has been blind for almost four years now and he walked, swam, waded, and travelled until he recently got too old to do any of that.

Home blood glucose testing is the very best way to monitor your dog's blood sugar so I really really encourage you to consider learning how to do it. Little dogs like Mickey are often tested on the back at the base of the tail and there's a photo tutorial available that shows you how it's done: http://www.mnsi.net/~queenie/bloodtail.html

There are also videos of other test methods on the BG testing page: www.k9diabetes.com/bgtestvideos.html (http://www.k9diabetes.com/bgtestvideos.html).

Also, there's a discussion of how to monitor your dog's blood sugar: www.k9diabetes.com/monitoring.html (http://www.k9diabetes.com/monitoring.html) and on how insulin and food interact: www.k9diabetes.com/insulinfood.html (http://www.k9diabetes.com/insulinfood.html).

The best thing about checking blood sugar instead of urine is you can test for low blood sugar. Some dogs on Vetsulin get a steep drop in blood sugar from the insulin so you will want to see how Mickey handles it.

Did the vet tell you what to do in response to low blood sugar?

Did she change his diet?

Natalie

[k9diabetes]

FYI, the main website on diabetes and dogs is www.k9diabetes.com (http://www.k9diabetes.com). From there you can go to many different pages and links to other pages.

[Debbie & Apollo]

Hi Mickeys' Mom

Keep checking in as the other menbers will be able to tell you more from their experiences. Let me wish you and Mickey a welcome!

Apollo (8 1/2 yr old Yorkie) and I are also new to this forum and the Cushings Forum.

We discovered Apollo had diabetes almost 2 yrs ago. He also gets Vetsulin - 2 times a day - 5.5 units. We just finished testing for Cushings.

Anyhow -- to answer your question -- every baby is different. From everything I have read the potential is definitely there. I would also have to say from what I have read that the better job we are able to do controlling the gluscose levels the longer there is a better quality of living for our babies.

Debbie & Apollo

[Mickey'sMom]

Our vet started Mickey on what she calls a low dose of insulin (Vetsulin) 4units 2twice a day his blood sugar was up to 625 today went up 300 in 4 days! We go back Monday..we have the test strips for glucose and Keytones (sp)?. She already told us we will be giving Mickey home blood glucose tests with a meter and lances...As far as diet, low fat, perf NO fat, low carb and high fiber, she gave us some recipes for home made food, lean chicken. brown rice, veggies, bran etc, small meals 2 or 3 times a day. This had been so much to process in such a short time! My husband John gave Mickey is first insulin shot in the office and did it perfectly, Im giving him his after dinner shot (first time).But ill do fine cause i love my little guy..she wants the shots 10 hrs apart.

[Debbie & Apollo]

We make insulin shot time a special time -- extra love, and after a tiny treat.
Apollo actually eats and then comes over to the counter where I have his shot set up and waits!

We also have a Maltese -- he is only 2 yrs. old. He has learned to 'be still' when it's shot time -- I am not sure how that happened but it helps to have the extra quiet so nobody moves suddenly. :)
You'll do fine and it's good to have an extra set of hands that can do the shot.

I have to run --- Apollo is looking up at me --- it's time for FOOD and his shot :cool:

Debbie and Apollo

[acushdogsmom]

Hi Dori,

I see that you found your way over here. :)

Just adding a link to your topic/thread over on the Cushing's message board, in case anyone here wants to read what you've written about Mickey over there. :D

http://caninecushings.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7165

[acushdogsmom]

She already told us we will be giving Mickey home blood glucose tests with a meter and lances...I am very impressed with your new Vet. Not all Vets are enthusiastic about owners doing home blood glucose monitoring (although they all should, if you ask me!)

I really think that home bg testing is the way to do it right. It will give you peace of mind being able to test Mickey's blood glucose at home, because you'll be able to always know if the bg is getting too high, too low or if it's just right.

Woo hoo!! :D

[k9diabetes]

Chris gets a "snackie" after each injection. For him that's a mini milkbone and a special treat. So he can actually be a bit impatient with me to get the shot done so he can have his treat and is very good about sitting and waiting for his injection and reward.

Some folks with other dogs actually give a fake injection to them so they don't feel left out at meal time! :) I love that.

I include the milkbone calories in calculating Chris' meals so it's not "extra" - just part of his regular food.

There's some information about meters on the monitoring page: http://www.k9diabetes.com/monitoring.html

I am SO excited to hear that your new vet wants you to home test!!!! Yay!!!! I like her already.

Natalie

[Mickey'sMom]

This vet is AWESOME! She thinks home testing is a better way to monitor the pup more closely so he gets better care! :) She already knows how much we love our babies ( all 7 of them) and now Mickey is our "special Baby" .I just gave Mickey his after dinner shot,,he was a perfect little boy as always..and I did it perfect :)..now Im a pro.....lol.

[ladysmom06]

Hi Dori,

Welcome to the diabetes board. Glad:D:D to see you here. Just like the cushing's board the people here are very caring and supportive - you'll find tons of info on diabetes. You'll also recognize a few of the same names from the cushing's board. There are a few of us on both boards that have dogs with both diseases.

I have to say I am also very impressed with your new vet. So glad you'll be hometesting. It does make managing the diabetes a lot easier. No second guessing on what the bg's are. Lady was dx with diabetes in Sept. 06 and I didn't start hometesting her until Feb 07. We were taking her to the vets for blood curves every couple of weeks. When I finally decided to hometest we took her to the vet and one of the techs showed us how to do it. We test from the ear. Lady will not let us near her mouth and I could never get enough blood from her tail. I'm sure you'll be hometesting in no time.

CONGRATULATIONS on giving the first shot. I was so afraid to give Lady her shots that I had my husband doing them all the time. I would hometest her but not give the insulin shots. I had myself convinced I couldn't do it - that somehow I would mess up. My husband kept telling me if you can check her blood you can give her a needle. Finally I decided to do it and couldn't believe how easy it really was.

I homecook for Lady. She gets low fat ground turkey, chicken, or beef, low fat cottage cheese, oatmeal, string beans and celery. She eats 2 x's a day right before her insulin and at night right before bed she gets a little snack.

Lady weighs a little over 11 lbs. and is on Humulin N 5 units twice a day.

Lady also gets a little treat right after her shot and also right after I test her. Like Natalie's Chris - Lady is very good about sitting for her shot and can't wait for her treat.

Good luck with Mickey and know we're all here to help you. Hugs to you and him.

[Brandy mom]

Hello and Welcome

I one of the crazy ones. I have a diabetic one and a non-diabetic one. I seat at the table waiting for them to finish their meal. The shot and treats are on the table. Each dog waits for the other to finish. When they are both done. They both come to the table lower there heads for the shot. Then the treat. It only took my non diabetic about 3 days to figure out. If I get one of those shots I get treats too. So after I give Brandy her injection I just cap the needle and give Penny a pretend shot.

So glad your vet want you to home test. I think it one of the best tools for managing diabetes. My vet tried to teach me the same day he taught me how to inject the insulin. It took me a few weeks to figure it out.

Dawn and the girls

[k9diabetes]

Had to share what Dori posted on the Cushings board about her vet.

Mickey more then likely has cushings too because the vet discussed with us the use of Lysodren for Micky in the very near future. She was amazed of how much I knew about cushings/diabetes and all the tests and medicines involved. Including the loading process, I told her I have a great support and information group on this [Cushings] site..And she teared up, and told us she is so happy that Mickey has such a loving mom and dad..It was wonderful to feel hope and positive feedback about my babys care from a qualified Vet!

[Mickey'sMom]

Mickey is on his 2nd day of insulin and doing well...is it normal for BG to drop from 625 to 500 in one day on insulin? Thats what happened to our Mickey....also he is getting picky about his food...He just wants his cesar with bran or his low fat chicken w/ brown rice...he turns up his nose at anything else...which is a good sign I assume since Cushings is also suspected, I think a picky eater is not a symptom,. Hes REAL perky now and wants to run around the yard! Can there be that much of an inprovement in only one day? PS he is also on Denamarin,, 1 tab each morning on a empty tummy

[Brandy mom]

Yes once you start insulin you will see improvement right away. So you can see the insulin is working. Doesn't it make you feel good to see him improve. Now those bad habits will not bother you as much. You will be so happy to see him feeling better.

Dawn and the girls

[Mickey'sMom]

He can be as bad as he wants..as long as he gets better! but isnt 4units twice a day too small of a dose for a dog whos BG was over 600 and he weighs 15 lbs? PS He lost a pound from last week..

[Debbie & Apollo]

In response to your question about "4units twice a day too small of a dose for a dog whos BG was over 600 and he weighs 15 lbs"

I am sure the others will chime also but from our experience all dogs can be different and you might be increasing but for now.... give it time. You DON"T want to give too much! that can be the cause for more serious complications.

glad you got that first shot in:)

Debbie and Apollo

[k9diabetes]

Hi Dori,

I think 4 units is a very good starting dose for a dog with limited symptoms and no ketones. It is 1/4 unit per pound, which is a pretty standard place to start.

From the Merck Veterinary Manual on treating diabetes: http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/40302.htm

In general NPH or lente is the initial insulin of choice at a dose of 0.5 U/kg bid. With twice daily injections, 2 meals of equal calories are given at the time of insulin administration.

A kilo is about 2.2 pounds so 0.5 units per kg is about 0.25 units per pound.

There is an incredible amount of variation in dogs in how much insulin they need. Our Chris is very sensitive to insulin and 1/4 unit per pound has always been too much insulin for him. Back when he was on two injections a day, he never needed more than about 12 units per injection and he weighs about 60 pounds!

Plus some dogs get a sharp drop in BG from the insulin. They start at 500 and drop to 100 on a dose. Chris did that too (he was a real challenge to regulate!!). So you need to know something about how low the blood sugar is going as well as where it starts when you give the injection.

So I think you're getting started just right!

The vet will likely work the dose upward slowly over a few weeks until the blood sugar is in a good range.

If you go too fast, it's easy to overshoot the right dose and send the dog's blood sugar dangerously low.

It's great that he's already feeling better!! :)

Chris was like that. Once we got his blood sugar down into the 400-500 range, the excessive thirst stopped and he acted more like himself. Now that he's older and has been at better blood sugars for a long time, he shows more symptoms of discomfort at those levels.

Natalie

[k9diabetes]

Also forgot... high blood sugar tends to be hard on their appetite. It should improve as the BG comes down. If it doesn't, talk to the vet about looking for another cause.

[We Hope]

Mickey is on his 2nd day of insulin and doing well...is it normal for BG to drop from 625 to 500 in one day on insulin? Thats what happened to our Mickey....also he is getting picky about his food...He just wants his cesar with bran or his low fat chicken w/ brown rice...he turns up his nose at anything else...which is a good sign I assume since Cushings is also suspected, I think a picky eater is not a symptom,. Hes REAL perky now and wants to run around the yard! Can there be that much of an inprovement in only one day? PS he is also on Denamarin,, 1 tab each morning on a empty tummy

When we were trying to find which insulin Lucky's immune system wasn't going to destroy within hours, he was always in the 500-600 and up ranges. It was like no insulin at all.

When we switched to pork Lente insulin (what you're using now for Mickey), Lucky dropped about 400 points in one week, going from that 500-600+ area into the mid 200's. Then we knew the biggest hurdle was behind us; it then became a matter of finding what dose was right for him.

Mickey's showing response to the insulin he's now getting and that's a VERY good sign to be sure! :) He seems to be feeling better now that he's getting what his system's been needing in that regard.

Hang in there!

[Mickey'sMom]

Micky did have Ketones in his urine..not alot..but enough for us to test him everyday

[We Hope]

Are you still seeing any ketones in Mickey's urine now that his bg's have started on their way down and he's on a regular insulin plan?

[Mickey'sMom]

He just started insulin yesterday... so yes there are still keytones in hs urine, not a lot..but enough to watch it closely

[We Hope]

He just started insulin yesterday... so yes there are still keytones in hs urine, not a lot..but enough to watch it closely

I wish everyone who's new to this was as aware as you are of watching for ketones when the bg's are high!

[Mickey'sMom]

I cant take credit for that I was warned in advance of keytones on the Cushings site :)

[k9diabetes]

With ketones present, you will need to keep a close eye on Mickey and up his insulin a bit faster than you would otherwise, at least until you get his blood sugar down into a safer range.

I see you're going back to the vet on Monday - that's good. She can assess how he's done so far on insulin and raise the dose if his BG is staying fairly high.

It would be ideal if you could tackle home blood glucose testing as soon as possible.

I think I mentioned earlier that some dogs get a very steep drop in blood sugar during the first couple of hours after injection. This is especially true if they are put on a low fat, high fiber diet.

If you only spot check, you can miss that low and the blood sugar will look like it's only high.

It can start at 500, drop to 100, and then return to 500 by the next time you check. If that is happening, increasing the insulin dose will send the blood sugar too low at the low point.

Hope that makes sense!

I'm thinking you haven't changed Mickey's diet yet and it may be that Mickey would do better on a diet that is not so high in fiber.

The way to sort this all out is to do a "curve (http://www.k9diabetes.com/monitoring.html)" to see how his blood sugar is fluctuating from injection to injection. If he's getting a nice level blood sugar, no big swings from high to low, on his current diet, you might want to keep it basically the same.

So as we enter "overwhelmed land"... :)

First thing to do is to assess Mickey's response to the insulin and preferably to determine both how high his blood sugar is going and how low it is going on this insulin and this diet.

From there, some diet and dosing decisions can be made!!

Will be anxious to hear how things go Monday.

And if those ketones increase at all or if he's looking poorly, get him to the vet right away. Don't wait for Monday.

Natalie

[Mickey'sMom]

Thank you Natalie so much for this free education :). Mickeys Keytone level is Small on the color -graph on the Keto-Diastic chart. Hes looking fine, in fact hes acting like the old or shall I say young Mickey again..all mouth and bounce :). We are going back to the vet early Monday morning to get him checked out again and see if he needs a different dose of vetsulin. We will be testing with a meter at home very soon , I would think we will be getting the meter and lances on Monday too..My new vet thinks we should do this as soon as possible too, so we can have a hour by hour way of seing how Mickey progresses during the day. (I love this vet!) Question... how many times a day do you think it is appropiate to test BG with the meter? I dont want to under or over "poke" Mickey..he's been such a sweetie about all of this,,,stands perfectly still for his shots/ so I give him a little low fat doggy treat right after ( he prefers white chicken ) and in your opinion where is the best place to check him with the least discomfort? Im sure the vet will tell me her opinion on that, but I like the input from people who are actually doing it at home. THANKS!

[We Hope]

For those of you who don't know what the Keto-Diastix chart looks like:

http://www.bri2e.co.uk/susie/images/1128.jpg

Mickey should be about here....X

[Mickey'sMom]

For those of you who don't know what the Keto-Diastix chart looks like:

http://www.bri2e.co.uk/susie/images/1128.jpg

Mickey should be about here....X
Mickey is in between 0.5 and 1.5...we're working on it, and keeping a close eye on him. Thanks :)

[k9diabetes]

Question... how many times a day do you think it is appropiate to test BG with the meter? I dont want to under or over "poke" Mickey.


At this stage, you will probably want to do one curve - test premeal and injection, 1 hour later, 2 hours later, and then every 2 hours or so until the next injection.

That curve will give you an idea of when his BG is lowest and how low it is - that's important to know.

Once you know about when that lowest BG occurs, you can do some spot checks at that time as the dose increases.

It's the kind of thing where you won't know how much testing you need to do until you do a few and see what you've got.

If his blood sugar stays nice and level all day, you won't need to test as much as you would if he's going through large blood sugar swings.

In Chris' case, after years and years at this, I test him before three of his four meals a day because we keep him pretty tightly regulated and his blood sugar tends to vary quite a bit from day to day. I haven't done a curve in a long long time.

When I do a curve, it's sometimes very detailed, especially if I've changed foods or otherwise changed his regimen and need to know how that has affected his insulin use (take a look at the food/insulin page: www.k9diabetes.com/insulinfood.html (http://www.k9diabetes.com/insulinfood.html)). Sometimes I just do a mini curve and check premeal, once or twice somewhere in between and then at the next meal.

Mickey's response to the insulin will be your guide.

I know people who, once their dog is regulated, never test, rarely test, spot test, and test daily... just depends on the dog's needs.

Also, in my experience, curves tend to be flattest when the blood sugar is in the high range. As it comes down closer to normal, it can develop a bigger difference between the highest and lowest value. So when he's in lower numbers, you can curve again to see if it looks the same or has become sharper.

Natalie

[Mickey'sMom]

Natalie I also went out a bought some Kero syrup if he ever goes too low.

[Mickey'sMom]

Well I just recieved an ACCU-CHECK Aviva system, (Ordered it free on the net!)http://www.accu-chek.com/us/ .... But I dont have a CLUE how to set this thing up or use it,,,Guess we'll just get a lesson from our vet Monday ..in this box is the meter of course, 60 lancets, and this blue tube like thingy. wow a new toy! :)

[We Hope]

Some clues:

http://www.accu-chek.com/us/rewrite/content/en_US/2.1.6:5/article/ACCM_general_article_2838.htm

http://www.accu-chek.com/en_US/multimedia/aviva_system/index.html

Aviva demo

The blue tube is the lancing device where you put the lancets for the "stick" to get the blood with.

Maybe Monday you can show the vet how you can handle this meter!

:)

[Debbie & Apollo]

Hi -- how long ago did you order your free meter?

I am still waiting :confused:

Debbie and Apollo

[Mickey'sMom]

2 weeks ago

[Debbie & Apollo]

well I'll try again!
it has been over 3 weeks since I made the request.

thanks
Debbie & Apollo

[Mickey'sMom]

I was just approved for a "care credit card" according to their site my new vets takes it...how does this work?

[We Hope]

Here's the Care Credit website link:

http://www.carecredit.com/vetmed/whycc.html

[Mickey'sMom]

Mickeys blood sugar today testes at 170....much better then the 600 ..4 days ago...he is responding very well to the insulin!

[We Hope]

Mickey gets a big A for coming up with numbers like that--under the renal threshold, even!

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Renal_threshold

In diabetic context, the renal threshold refers to the blood glucose level at which the kidneys begin to extract glucose from the blood and excrete it into the urine, causing glycosuria. (Glycosuria--glucose in the urine; this is what's measured by urine test sticks for glucose.)

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/40302.htm

"The renal threshold for glucose is ~180 mg/dL in dogs and ~240 mg/dL in cats."

How's it going with you, Mickey, and the Aviva meter?

[BestBuddy]

Wow, what a great BG number!
Another positive is that if you can get the BG into good ranges there is a possibility that cushings is not there.
Jenny & Buddy

[Mickey'sMom]

We were thrilled ! Mickey gained almost two lbs too! he was 15.6 now he is 17.3 lbs...The vet and I want to see if he can level off,,,before checking for Cushings again,,he had keytones in his urine at 25+ now there is only a trace.He is responding wonderfully and acting like himself...But hes still a bit too hungry and pees a bit too much for us to be totally at ease...No peeing all over the place anymore and no more throwing up!

[We Hope]

It sounds like you're VERY close to where you want to be with Mickey and now it's a matter of finding out just how much insulin he needs in a day to go the rest of the way.

Some of us call that "tweaking". :D

[Mickey'sMom]

Question....Now that Mickeys diabetes is getting under control,,,he seems to be gaining weight fast. almost 2 lbs in 4 days!...Is that a sign of cushing in both a diabetic and cushoid dog?

[Debbie & Apollo]

Hi Mickey's Mom

Glad Mickey is feeling better!
I am surprised he gained that much this quickly.
This may sound dumb - were you using the same scale?
There is a relationship between calories, weight and the amount of insulin.
Keep up the monitoring just in case.

I agree with the others --
Cushings might not be there. that would be fantastic!

Debbie & Apollo

[Mickey'sMom]

actually same vets office two different scales..but I can see the weight gain and tell when I pick him up..he is getting muscle mass back...quickly...as I said Mickey is sending a lot of mixed messages

[k9diabetes]

Some of the difference may be the two scales so it may not be so dramatic a weight gain.

But with insulin to start getting that food to his cells, he should be gaining weight. Any time they have had ketones, they've been breaking down the body's proteins for food. Now he's back to using what goes into his stomach to sustain him. As long as he's put on muscle, I wouldn't worry.

To keep him from getting overweight, you might need to reduce his food. And any time you reduce food, you will likely have to reduce the insulin dose as well.

You can see from Mickey's response why it's important to start with a low dose of insulin!! He dropped a long way on the starting dose!

Natalie

[We Hope]

I think Mickey's sending you a very positive message. Many diabetics lose weight until they are treated. Before there was insulin available for treatment, those with diabetes were mainly kept on what was called a "starvation diet". They could eat very little food because the food they ate raised their blood glucose levels. There was no treatment back then to keep this from happening, so the best that could be done to try to keep them alive and from going into DKA was to severely limit their food intake.

http://images.wikia.com/petdiabetes/images/6/66/Eugenia-corwin.jpg

This is a photo of a young girl, Eugenia Corwin, who was a young diabetic at the time insulin was made available as a treatment--in the early 1920's. The photo at left shows Eugenia before she started treatment with insulin; on the right is Eugenia after using insulin for 4 months.

Think about this too--some of those who are into body building misuse insulin to create those mountains of muscles you see in their photos. ;)

http://images.wikia.com/petdiabetes/images/c/cf/Dm_003b.gif
Insulin uses receptors to enter body cells. Glucose can't be used as fuel until it is able to enter the body's cells. Insulin allows glucose to enter body cells, thus the body is able to use the glucose for its fuel.

And there you see, second from right, the happy muscle cell, who is now getting all of the insulin he needs. :D

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/insulin-and-weight-gain/DA00139

"What's the connection between insulin and weight gain?

"Weight gain is a common side effect for people who take insulin. The more insulin you use to control your blood sugar level, the more glucose that gets into your cells and the less glucose that's wasted in your urine. Glucose that your cells don't use accumulates as fat. If you continue to eat as you did before, you'll likely gain weight when you start taking insulin.

"Think about it this way: Before you start taking insulin, you may be able to eat more food than you need without gaining weight because your body doesn't use the food properly. But when you start taking insulin, all bets are off. When your body uses food properly, you may need less food than you think."

[Mickey'sMom]

My concern is the possiblity that hes gaining bulk back so fast because of Cushings disease being the reason he is gaining now that his bg is leveling off, the Cushings can "take over" with the diabetes at bay...but Ive also heard its very hard to get BG levels good if there is Cushings, so you can see my total confusion here..

[We Hope]

I sure do and about the only thing it looks like you can do is to take things a step at a time, watching both his weight and the blood glucose readings you get. If there's Cushing's, you should see his bg's start going back up because of the extra cortisol in his system.

My little guy was overweight when we started. Getting rid of all the "junk food" treats and switching him to W/D canned got him down to proper weight.

He stayed at proper weight for all the time he was using Lilly Iletin II Lente. When we switched to Caninsulin/Vetsulin, we had only one higher than expected bg reading. Putting him on the hospital scale told us he'd gained a quarter of a pound. That wouldn't matter much if at all to a larger dog, but it sure does with the smaller ones. We cut the food back, he lost the weight, and we had no more bg "blips".

[Mickey'sMom]

Mickey Turns his nose up at food he doesnt like..example ..the other dogs food. But when I make him his "special food" cooked white meat chicken, brown rice and green beans, he eats like a starving dog, I regulate how much he eats and do play the mean mommy. The vet told us that Mickeys BG going down so quickly and staying stable is a real good sign, because Cushings has a way of really messing with BG levels. She wants to wait a couple of more weeks to see how his BG stays and then retest him for Cushings..She made it very clear how sneaky Cushings can be and each dog has different symptons and responses...she thinks that since Mickey is responding so well with Insulin, that in the event Cushings is positive he should respond to the lysodren well too, she says his age is on his side (he'll be 6 in August ) She said right now Mickeys body is adjusting to the insulin and its hard to tell if he has Cushings or not. But she is leaning that he more then likely does..So its still up in the air... ( I hate this)

[Debbie & Apollo]

We Hope -- that is an awesome diagram -- such cute little cells!
I was an elementary teacher and a picture is worth SO much!

I agree about how their muscle mass changes once on insulin!
Hang in there - I agree with your vet -- give him a chance to adjust to the insulin.

Debbie & Apollo

[Mickey'sMom]

Mickey going back to the vets Thurs AM.. more tests and to proceed to check for Cushings......

[k9diabetes]

I'll be looking for news! Wishing Mickey good luck and No Cushings!! :)

Natalie

[Mickey'sMom]

Mickey is back from the vets..The Vet is really starting to doubt Cushings now..Mickey is drinking Less and peeing less, and is respondeing pretty good to insulin. she changed his dose from 4/u twice to 5/u twice each day, she is saying that since the BG isnt giving us too much of a hard time, Cushings may not be in issue :D

[We Hope]

Today Mickey made the Honor Roll! :D

[Mickey'sMom]

We are praying that Cushings is not an issue...The vet told us many symptoms of diabetes are the same as Cushings....

[We Hope]

Your vet is right, and that's why it can sometimes be a puzzle to sort out-

http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/Zwicker/

Canine Hyperadrenocorticism, Diabetes Mellitus, or Both?
University of Georgia

When we started with Lucky, we looked for Cushing's when he responded to human insulin for one week and then not at all--would not respond to beef insulin either.

We found he had immune-mediated insulin resistance; his system treated these insulins like they were bacteria or a virus and it would destroy them a few hours after they were injected. They were destroyed by his immune system before they could do anything about lowering his bg's.

Pork insulin is an exact match to a dog's own insulin-

http://images.wikia.com/petdiabetes/images/f/fb/Canineinsulin8.png
See how canine insulin and porcine (pork) insulin have the same amino acid sequence.

When we switched him to pork Lente insulin (before Vetsulin, so it was from Lilly--later Vetsulin), he lost about 400 bg points in a week--because this insulin was just like his own and his immune system didn't see it as something "bad" to be gotten rid of.

We'll all keep good thoughts that Mickey doesn't have Cushing's! :)

[Debbie & Apollo]

Can ya hear the clapping! ??? and cheering! ??? :D

Awesome!

Debbie & Apollo

[ladysmom06]

Hi Dori,

Your vet is right - diabetes and cushing's do have a lot of the same symtoms. Mickey has been responding really well to the insulin. We could never get Lady's diabetes regulated or get the kind of numbers Mickey has been having till we started treating the cushing's. Unregulated diabetes can give false positive on cushing's tests. I'm with your vet - thinking maybe Mickey doesn't have cushing's after all. Keeping fingers and paws crossed that Mickey continues to do well on the insulin and doesn't have cushing's. Hugs to you and him.

Luv,
Lynne and Lady

[Mickey'sMom]

We are praying,,very very hard that our baby only has one issue to deal with and not 2. The best thing we did for our little guy was when we changed vets..This lady is a Godsend for our pup

[We Hope]

Let's look at some graphs which have blood glucose measured in mmol/l terms (non US mg/dL) for the sake of an example:

This is the curve of an animal (report didn't identify if it's a dog or cat) who was given 2 injections of Lente (report didn't identify if it was human, beef, or pork insulin) a day:

http://www.vin.com/ImageDBPub/TN20000/TN_IMC16199_550X0Y.jpg


You see that the blood glucose is high and remains high; the slight drops you see at hours 2 and the slight slide and drop from hours 12-18 are when the two insulin shots took effect. By hour 20, you see the blood glucose going back toward where it was before. This is what insulin resistance looks like, no matter what's causing it--excess cortisol from Cushing's, immune mediated insulin resistance, etc. This is similar to what we saw with Lucky before pork insulin.

This one is of a cat who was getting only one daily shot of beef Lente insulin:

http://www.vin.com/ImageDBPub/TN20000/TN_IMC16197_550X0Y.jpg

You see the blood glucose starting a downward slide at hour 2, continuing to lower until hour 8, when it starts going back up. There's where we see that the cat is responding positively to the beef Lente insulin. The problem with the curve is that he/she doesn't get enough duration from one beef Lente shot a day; he/she needs two shots of insulin daily. Since he/she was showing a response to the insulin, giving a second shot would prevent the bg's starting back upward around hours 12-14.

As Lynne said about Lady--until Cushing's treatment started, Lady wasn't able to respond like Mickey has. Lucky didn't respond like Mickey until he had pork insulin. So we have two different problems on the cyber table here, but each had the same type of response to the insulin he/she got--resistance.

I'm not a doctor, but things sure look good for Mickey's chances of only having diabetes to me.

[Mickey'sMom]

I hope you ladies are correct...The highest Mickeys BG level has been is 325 since the shots began...the lowest 170... In between shots he has been 200-225..then right back down again with his morning shot...and this is on 4 units 2x's a day...So the Vet increased his Vetsulin to 5 units 2x's a day...She said hes doing "too well" quicky on Insulin to suspect Cushings anymore, She said the next 2 weeks will tell, if his numbers remain fairly low, his first Cushings test was more then likely a false positive because of the 640 bg level and above he had all the time.

[Mickey'sMom]

PS plus his drinking and peeing has slowed down a bit

[We Hope]

Let's look again at the link from the University of Georgia:

http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/Zwicker/

Canine Hyperadrenocorticism, Diabetes Mellitus, or Both?

Table 1. Characteristics of hyperadrenocorticism

Clinical signs
Polydipsia /Polyuria (drinking too much/wetting too much)

Incidence

~80-85%

Comment

Due to interference w/ release of antidiuretic hormone

Table 2. Characteristics of diabetes mellitus

Clinical signs

Polydipsia /Polyuria

Incidence

Very common

Comment

Due to osmotic diuresis secondary to glycosuria (glucose in urine).

As of now, you're treating Mickey only for diabetes, because there's no real proof he has Cushing's also. Insulin wouldn't be helping Cushing's caused PU/PD--it would only be helping the PU/PD caused by diabetes.

Table 3 is full of reasons why someone with diabetes might have a false positive to various tests to determine Cushing's.

You'll get rid of the abnormal drinking and wetting when you find the right insulin dose for Mickey, if it's what we all hope--that Mickey only has diabetes. There are still times when he's above the renal threshold of 180 mg/dL--being in that "zone" for periods of time means that glucose spills into the urine.

http://images.wikia.com/petdiabetes/images/8/8e/Dm_006b.gif
Renal threshold: When the blood glucose level rises over a certain level, it spills into the urine.

[Mickey'sMom]

These 2 sites...this one and the cushings site has been a unbelievable help to me and my Mickey, Our vet is so happy that we are "educated and caring dog owners" and that we are willing to do whatever it takes so that our baby is as healthy as possible, We have these sites to thank for that,, we knew ZERO about diabetes and Cushings before coming here. Now we feel well equipped to handle whatever comes next! We cant thank you enough for all the help! Mickey goes back to the vet next Thursday to see how he has faired this next week, and you can bet we will be watching our baby closely for each new sign of improvment, or anything that doesnt seem right... with our insulin, syringes, test strips, and BG meter, journal of daily testing, and of course some Karo syrup on hand , just in case. For all of you who have faith in a higher power , like we do, please pray for Mickey and all the voiceless beautiful animals that God has blessed us with, and gave us the gift of watching over, They are such loving creatures,,,, Dog is God spelled backwards for a real good reason! Bless you all and our furry friends... Be back soon!!

[k9diabetes]

This was you barely two weeks ago...

Our Vet called this moring to tell us our beloved Mickey who is 5 yrs and 10 months old has diabetes,and he also suspects Cushings..my little boy may actually have BOTH! http://www.caninecushings.net/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif . We have 6 other dogs who are all fine..Mickey is a Bichon/Poodle. We have never delt with anything like this before..Our vet wants me to bring Mickey in and he wants to take more tests and keep him a couple of days..Mickey is a mommys boy and I dont know how he will react being away from his family. Can someone here help me about these diseases, care, cost and how thier baby is fairing with this.We want Mickey to have a happy life, he is quite active for a "sick dog" eats very well..pees a bit too much..seems happy on his walks and romps in the yard, so we are so confused...Any help will be greatly appreciated!! http://www.caninecushings.net/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif

Amazing what can happen in just two weeks! :)

Natalie

[Mickey'sMom]

:D we are praying and keeping fingers crossed..Mickeys test strip this morning showed negative keytones!

[We Hope]

Sounds like Mickey likes getting back to life below the renal threshold! :D

[Mickey'sMom]

I know.. :) we're just not too thrilled that he is still leaving little furballs around the house..The vet told us with diabetes their hair can thin out considerably ..poo!

[Debbie & Apollo]

Your last post brought back a memory flash!

When we first found out about Apollo (he is a Yorkie) his hair also came out a bit and also the texture changed.
We asked the vet about doing something (in his diet) to help his coat - he said not to worry -- as his body got used to the food change and insulin it would improve. He was right! It did, I can't tell you how long it took as it was gradual.

As well as Mickey has been doing in a few months I think you will also see a big improvement with the hair.

Debbie & Apollo

[eyelostit]

Hi Mickey's Mom, Welcome :)

My Niki has had diabetes since 2003, her cataracts did not mature till 2006, she's has been blind for 2 yrs now, I think she can see shadows, she was going blind slowly and I never noticed it until she jumped up on the wrong thing, so somehow she adjusted herself to it and had me fooled.

But she does great shes a champ, she can jump up and down out of the SUV, jumps on the couch, is great on her leach.

Sounds like you have a great vet, that diet is good, I feed Niki turkey, brocolli, and a small bit of dog food, with a treat of veggies in between, her sugar has been good.

She just had a check up at the vet all is well.

I know its hard the blindness, as I cried and cried about it, as I cried and cried when I found out about the diabetes.

But dogs seem to be able to handle any hardship they just bounce back.

Hope this helps. :)

[Mickey'sMom]

Mickey has a red spot on the side of his nose near his eye...Does this happen with diabetic dogs? I dont know if its a "Hot spot" yet or he just scratched himself too hard. I put some neosporin (antibacterial cream ) on it for now..He goes back to the vet Thurs. he is still leaving some hair around the house ( guess I have a shedding dog after all ) the drinking has toned down, still pees a bit too much. but he is as active as a puppy.

[k9diabetes]

A red spot wouldn't be something commonly caused by diabetes. Could be he scratched it or has a little bite or ulceration.

It's in the skin where there's fur, not the eyelid, inner eyelid, or eye itself?

If it's anywhere inside the eye, the vet should look at it.

If it's outside the eye...

Things I'd consider / be concerned about is whether his eyes are bothering him and that caused him to scratch at his face. The risk there is he scratches his eye.

Or if the spot is itchy and he wants to scratch at it and could scratch his eye.

Otherwise, the antibiotic cream is a good idea and as long as it's healing up and he leaves it alone, I wouldn't worry about it prior to his vet visit, when she can take a look at it.

Natalie

[Mickey'sMom]

Its not his eye...its the side of his nose...we think he scratched it himself he's leaving it alone since I put the antibiotic creme on it..I looked at his nails..they need to be cut..Ill have the vet do it..thanks!

[Mickey'sMom]

Today is vet day for Mickey.....Ill post how it went this afternoon....

[k9diabetes]

Am checking in late - hope all went well!

[Mickey'sMom]

Mickeys BG was 345...she upped his insulin to 6 units..2x a day....His peeing and drinking has really slowed down...so she is still thinking that cushings may not be an issue,, no more keytones in the urine, those are totally gone! hair is still thinning. but he is behaving like a puppy,,,he is neutered and is chasing our unspayed female poodle ( who is in heat) all over the house trying to be "friends" lol...He goes back to the vet next Thursday..

[Mickey'sMom]

PS The vet said she willl be happy when Mickeys BG settles between 200-250,and he is still on Vetsulin, she sees no need to change it yet or if at all.

[We Hope]

I wish there was some sort of magical time frame for regulating, like the do it yourself books that promise you'll be doing something like a pro within 30 days or whatever they might say. But there isn't.

Regulating time varies from dog to dog. It happens quickly with some if you've found the right insulin, the right amount of it and the right food right away. Most of us weren't fortunate enough to have all of that going for us right from the start. We had to try this and try that for our individual dogs.

We had someone from Belgium at the other board a while back. Her dog had been on insulin for 9 months and was still not regulated. At that time, the only method Intervet was suggesting was the one shot a day one--all of the day's insulin being given in the morning after breakfast and then the second meal (no insulin) coming shortly before the insulin would be working at its hardest or "peaking".

We'd been using pork Lente insulin for Lucky--the old Lilly version (discontinued in 2003) and we were doing that twice a day. She was able to get her vet to give the split dose, two shots a day (food before each one) method a try and the dog who could not regulate did just that in a very short period of time. :)

I think all of you are on the right road, even though at times it might seem like you're not "getting there" as quickly as you'd like.

Hang in there as I think Mickey's doing just great! :D

[Mickey'sMom]

I know patience is important with this, but mine is wearing thin. It pains me to know that while we are trying to regulate him, damage is being done to my babys little body. The best news we had these past few weeks is that Mickeys Keytones are gone. but his bg still jumps around too much from around 200 as far up as 375.. the only thing Mickey is getting to eat now is home made Chicken breast with brown rice and green beans, and we give him Cesar dog food in the morning which is low in fat and sugars. oh and he chews plain white raw hide sometimes.. Even though Mickey is acting like a "new dog" since the insulin started, I cant help but worry about his numbers. Its not like he can tell me if he feels "off"... :(

[We Hope]

I know how you feel because I was there myself in the beginning. Had the same worries about Lucky, who couldn't get out of the 500-600+ range with either human or beef insulin. After we got him regulated, we did a lot of testing and we found that he had no ill effects from all this. All of his tests were now in normal range and he was considered a healthy senior whose only health problem was his diabetes. Lucky was about 14-15 years old when I got the news he had diabetes.

With pets or with people, there's just no "express" or "instant" method to getting regulated. When people are diagnosed with diabetes, either Type 1 or Type 2, starting either insulin or oral meds doesn't mean they are where they should be right away. Everyone's system responds to the treatment in an individual way and because of that, it's a step by step process to "getting there". People don't walk out of a doctor's office with a prescription for insulin or oral meds, go home and because they've started treating the disease, are instantly in control either.

Raising insulin too quickly brings with it the possibility of setting off a whole new set of problems. One is called Somogyi rebound or just rebound, where the bg's "roller coaster" or "yo-yo" wildly up and down, swinging from hyperglycemia to near hypoglycemic or hypoglycemic values.

http://k9diabetes.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5&d=1214191165

This link opens a Flash movie which shows how Somogyi rebound gets set up--raising insulin doses too rapidly.

The other is an outright hypoglycemia episode--and that's counter to the goal of regulation too. When you have a hypo episode those counteregulatory hormones such as cortisol, as you see in the movie, automatically go to work to save the body. So once you've gotten someone out of a hypo, his/her bg's are going to be abnormally high for at least 2-3 days because of them.

From what you've posted, Mickey's vet is quite pleased about where you've gotten to at this point; I believe you have quite a bit of confidence in her also. Because this is a concern, I'd say you should bring it up with her and see if this is also a concern of hers and if not, why not.

We had a lot of people on the other board who, at one time or another, fell into the "chasing numbers" trap. There was one person in particular who, in the beginning was chasing them so much, we had to tell him/her to put the meter away for a few days and not do any testing. "Chasing numbers" is a sure way to get into trouble. He/she stopped the chase and I can tell you that his/her dog did get regulated with no ill effects and is very well-regulated today. Matter of fact, he/she is also a member of this board.

So by all means, tell Mickey's vet what's worrying you and let her tell you why you either should or shouldn't be worrying about it. :)

[Mickey'sMom]

We already discussed my worries...she put them somewhat at ease and told me a lot of what you did, what is also bothering me a bit. Mickey is starting to fuss a bit at shot time, even though we are rotating where we give him the shots. we are gentle about it, and give him a small chicken reward after, I can only assume his back and shoulders are getting sore, which of course bothers me more, since diabetes is a life long disease. In the beginning he acted like it didnt bother him at all. like he didnt even feel it, now his skin quivers a bit at shot time and he turns to look at what we are doing, it almost made me cry because we know the little guy doesnt understand why mommy or daddy sticks him twice a day, humans understand, these poor darlings dont, and we love all our pups, so even hurting one for their own good doesnt come too easy ( I know Im a big baby)

[We Hope]

I had to stick Lucky once years before he had diabetes. He'd become suddenly ill quite early in the morning and I knew that my vet was at the hospital, doing meds before office hours. I brought him in and he was dehydrated with a 106 temp. We had no techs in yet at that hour and "Grampa" hadn't been doing shots, etc. for quite a while because of Parkinson's.

So he was the brains of the procedure, guiding me on what to do to get a line going for Lucky. Got through it telling myself that I had to do this or Lucky would die. Doing that still didn't prepare me for needing to give him shots twice a day. For a while, I held my breath when I did the shots, but still telling myself as I did the first time, that I had to do this or Lucky would die. Did it twice a day often enough that I no longer needed to either hold my breath or tell myself that if I didn't, Lucky would die. Strange as it might sound, after you do this often enough it does become part of your daily routine and you don't stress over it. :)

I never thought I could do something like that, but when push came to shove, somehow, you do what you need to and get through it. Did not know how Lucky was going to take to getting shots twice a day when we started either, but I just told myself that we were going to make it through this somehow. Knew that the alternative was to die of diabetes and also knew that there was no contest as to my choice--we would find our way as to giving the shots.

What Lucky didn't like, though, was my trying to pinch the skin or pull it up to make a tent for the shot--see link to this thread to how we worked around that:

http://k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=167

I trained him to come into the kitchen after his meals--would take a look to see if he'd eaten it all (While he was eating, I'd be preparing his insulin shot.) and then he'd get his shot and a bit of roast beef as a treat afterward.

Lucky never knew he was getting a shot--no flinching, etc. You'll see on the link to the thread above that he was happy and wiggly (thinking about the roast beef) before and during the shot process.

I have a link to some shot time tips-

http://www.indulgedfurries.com/petdiabetes/tips.htm

and if you're still having problems, we can start a new thread asking for others here to give us their "recipes" for solving shot-time problems. :)

[Mickey'sMom]

I wonder if anyone here has used oral gel on your dogs skin before the injection to ease the sting...or if thats a no no

[rhodesian46]

Hi Mickeys mom,
I have a Siberian Husky named Pebbles She is hyperthyroid,has diabetes and cushings. I have been using her scruff to inject for almost a year. SOme days she will yipe I retract the needle and inject in a different spot I think that she plays me some days as she picks up that I am nervous about hurting her If I am confident all goes well You think I would have it down pat!! She know when it is shot time will lay on her side, Its a little difficult to inject the scruff that way but she hasn't yelped. You do have to watch that the needle doesn't go through the other side and leak out insulin THere is nothing that we all use to numb the site Just make sure that you use the needle one time as it can become dull very easily Also if your dog is little you can get away with using a shorter needle I use 1/2" because she is 57 lbs. You may want to go with a higher gauge needle as the higher you go the thinner the needle Maybe a 30 or 31 gauge Just also wanted to say hi and welcome to this forum These people here are awesome!!!

[k9diabetes]

What syringes are you using? - the needle gauge size?

You might find a spot Mickey "likes" better too. You can inject over a large area of the body on both sides.

Easier said than done, but try to set aside your worries when you give Mickey his injection. Smile, laugh, be happy, praise... convey to him with your emotions that it's "no big deal."

They can read your emotions so easily so it can really help to put yourself in a good place when you do this - will ease their anxiety.

Natalie

[k9diabetes]

Diagram of injection sites: http://www.bddiabetes.com/us/main.aspx?cat=1&id=395

Also, I think we all use slightly different techniques... needle angle, length of needle and gauge, how we tent the skin. You might experiment with Mickey and see if there's something he likes better.

Chris has a spot on his right side where injections bother him and they do not bother him in the same place on the left side.

We inject from just behind the front leg about three inches up and down and back from the leg so it's a pretty large area in which we vary the injections. I switch sides sometimes but Chris is generally happier if I use the left side.

We use the short needles.

[k9diabetes]

One last thing.... you and Mickey are very very new at this. He was just diagnosed a little over three weeks ago!! So you are proceeding very quickly actually.

The damage to the body, other than cataracts, occurs very slowly over a long period of poor regulation. Chris was very poorly controlled for more than a year because he was so difficult to regulate and he didn't suffer any irreparable damage. The cataracts happened early on. And his other health problems were already present when he was diagnosed with diabetes.

Also, dogs don't suffer the kinds of debilitating side effects that human diabetics do, if only because they don't live with the disease for 50 years. But they also just generally tolerate high blood sugar better.

You and Mickey are doing fine. Don't worry!! (yeah, right...) Well, try very very hard not to worry and just enjoy life with Mickey. :)

Natalie

[We Hope]

I'm gonna throw a "caution" flag here because the smallest gauge needle on U 40 syringes available in the US that I'm aware of is 29 gauge. Needle length on them is standard 1/2".

http://www.vetrxsupply.com/items.asp?SearchFor=U-40&srcfield=itmdesc&itemsperpage=10&ref=srh&submit=Search

While you see they now offer 3 barrel sizes--1 cc, 1/2 cc and now 3.10 cc, they're not offering the finer, shorter needles.

I can't promise the photos are actual size, but take a look at the U 100 syringes from BD here, which have orange caps, BTW, to signify they are for use with U 100 insulins:

http://www.childrenwithdiabetes.com/gifs/products/BDUFS1cc.jpg

And now a look at the red-capped U 40 syringes:

http://images.wikia.com/petdiabetes/images/9/9d/40iusyringe.jpg

Even though both photos may not be life sized, you can see from looking at them both that they measure International Units of insulin differently. This is because the U 40 insulins are more dilute than U 100 ones--one IU of insulin in a U 40 syringe is equal to one IU of insulin in a U 100 syringe.

You see that because of this, the U 100 1 cc (shown) syringe holds 100 IU's of U 100 insulin, while the U 40 1 cc syringe pictured holds 40 IU's of U 40 insulin. If we compared the actual syringes side by side, you would also see that a U 100 syringe has a thinner barrel than U 40 syringes do.

Those who want to use U 100 syringes with the finer, shorter needles need to do some conversion of the dose--otherwise the animal will not be getting the proper amount of insulin:

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Syringe#Conversion

"Though it's not recommended by veterinarians, some caregivers use a U100 syringe with a U40 insulin. That requires “converting” the U40 concentration to a U100 strength. If you choose to use the U100 syringes for U40 insulin, a fast way to calculate the right amount of units is to multiply the number of U40 units given by 2.5."

http://www.intervet.com.au/binaries/82_103334.pdf

Intervet, Australia--Using Caninsulin With U 100 Syringes

Since you and Mickey are just starting out, you might not be comfortable with doing this conversion for the U 100 syringes, but it can be done with a little care and math.

I stayed with the U 40 syringes for two reasons. I was more comfortable giving the shot to my "moving target" when I knew I had a bit more needle length so his wiggling wouldn't pull the needle out so easily and we had a partial or total "fur shot". Going to U 100 syringes would have given me no advantage as long as I wanted the longer needle. Second, my nightmare was that I might wake up some morning and fuzzily forget to multiply by 2.5, thus giving Lucky an underdose. :o

My personal advice to you would be to stay with the U 40 syringes until you get more comfortable with it all. At this point, Mickey's insulin doses are changing quite a bit as you get closer and closer to regulation. You may want to change to them in future when his insulin doses aren't changing week by week.

True and funny story:

Quite a while ago on another board, we were discussing this issue of U 40 vs U 100 insulins and syringes when someone popped in from cyberspace and posted something to the effect of, "Thank goodness you were talking about this. Now I know what's wrong!"

At that time, one could post without being a member, and the person wasn't one. We asked him/her to explain the post, and he/she indicated that he/she was in Canada, using Caninsulin and began having some problems with regulation after a friend with diabetes gave him/her some syringes he/she no longer needed.

The problem was that the person had given the poster U 100 syringes and he/she didn't realize the conversion was necessary until reading the thread. It then dawned on the poster that what had gotten his/her dog out of regulation was being underdosed by not multiplying by 2.5 when using U 40 Caninsulin in the U 100 syringes. :D

[Mickey'sMom]

We are using 1/2cc-29 gauge x 1/2" made by Ulticare we dont put the needle very far in just enough to inject the insulin properly..we will be ordering more syringes soon from 1800petmeds they have the Vetsulin and the syringes, Mickeys skin is pretty tight to the body, so tenting him is impossible..Loose skin isnt one of Mickeys strong points. I know Im a novice at all this,, Im glad we had least have the shots down pat, my concern is the best comfort level for Mickey

[We Hope]

You are using the same syringes I used for Lucky. I never had a problem with any of them. :)

[Mickey'sMom]

the syringes arent a problem, Mickeys comfort is the only issue I have

[We Hope]

We never had a problem with comfort and the Ulti Care syringes. Some people feel that there's more comfort in needles finer than 29 gauge and in the shorter 5/16" ones.

If you want to try them, all you will need to do is to multiply Mickey's number of U 40 insulin units by 2.5.

[k9diabetes]

I have seen a handful of dogs who started to have problems with the 29 gauge syringes and were happier with the finer gauge needles so that may be helpful.

Also if you went to the short needle, you might be able to just plunge the syringe into the skin in one swift movement instead of trying to estimate how far is far enough and that might improve the comfort of the injections too.

We have an older thread here about angling the syringe too. I'll bring that forward. Sometimes it helps to change the angle that you aim the syringe, especially since Mickey doesn't tent very well.

There's a page on making the conversion here: http://www.medi-vet.com/Insulin-Syringe-Conversion-Chart.htm and here: http://felinediabetes.com/insulin-conversions.htm.

It's often needed especially in cats because of the small doses of insulin given. The conversion makes it easier to measure small doses.

I know of a number of people who have or are doing the conversion and it's worked great for them.

Just be sure you know in your own mind, and so you can explain to someone else, how many "units" of insulin you are giving, which is separate from the number mark on the U100 syringe that you will to so that you give that number of units.

If Mickey is on 5 units, 5 x 2.5 = 12.5.

So to give - 5 units of insulin - you would - fill the U100 syringe to the 12.5 mark with Vetsulin.

I use BD Ultrafine II 31 gauge 3/10 cc syringes with half unit markings and the short needle (5/16"). They work great for Chris even though he's big and I can measure his insulin dose down to quarter units, which is also nice, allows me to finetune his dose.

Chris only gets about 7 units per injection so a half a unit even is a big difference.

Natalie

[We Hope]

You could be having problems also with whether the syringe is pointed with the needle bevel side up or not too-

http://images.wikia.com/petdiabetes/images/f/f5/1-3.jpg

This is the way the syringe should be pointed to give a shot--with the bevel side up.

[k9diabetes]

We Hope talked about the angle she used with the syringe and Lucky in the thread I just brought forward by Denise about her other diabetic, Molly.

This image shows the angle of the barrel of the syringe lying almost flat against the ribs.

http://www.bddiabetes.com/us/images/pets/injectdog_14.jpg

Some people pull up the skin and point the needle directly down into the tent (or as close to a tent as you can get!) so the syringe barrel is perpendicular to the body.

And some use an angle in between.

As long as it gets where it needs to go, you can do whatever works best.

[Mickey'sMom]

Mickeys hair loss seems to have stopped...we were finding his hair all over the house, but we arent anymore...good sign?

PS Mickey is on 6 units 2x a day

[We Hope]

UH-HUH!!

http://www.provet.co.uk/health/diseases/insulinineffectiveness.htm

Presentation given by Prof Richard Nelson DVM Diplomate ACVIM at the North American Veterinary Conference 2001.

"Ineffectiveness of insulin should be considered when poor glycaemic control is present in patients that are given insulin at a dose rate of more than 1.5U/kg body weight twice daily and :

They are still showing the clinical signs typical of diabetes - weight loss, polydipsia, polyuria, polyphagia, lethargy, poor hair coat, neuropathy

Their blood glucose concentrations exceed 300mg/dl (16.8 mmol/l)

Their blood fructosamine concentrations exceed 500 mmol/l"

This presentation was a key to our discovering why Lucky was doing so poorly with everything except controlling his bg's after we were forced to use the now discontinued Iletin II NPH, while we waited for permission to import Caninsulin/Vetsulin.

He had neuropathy where there was none before--not even with red-hot bg's, a thin, dry and lifeless winter coat--where it was shiny and healthy before, and he slept most of the time. When he had the terribly high bg's while we were looking for his answer, he was hyperactive.

Within 2 weeks of Lucky's starting on Caninsulin/Vetsulin, the neuropathy was gone, he was once again happy and active and he shed every hair of the pitiful winter coat he'd grown while on pork NPH. The new coat that came in was thick, shiny and healthy--just as it was when he was using Lilly's pork Lente insulin.

I think Mickey's lookin' GOOD! :D

[Mickey'sMom]

Mickey is not losing anymore weight in fact he gained a pound. he's been playing with the other dogs since he started insulin.. before treatment started he slept most of the time. The vet sees him again this Thursday. I just love seeing him being his yappy self


PS..what is neuropathy?

[We Hope]

Neuropathy is a nerve condition which can affect anyone with diabetes. In dogs and cats, you see it most commonly as weakness of the back legs. It's seen a lot in newly-diagnosed dogs and cats because their bg's are still not controlled.

The good news is that if your pet has neuropathy, most of the time it clears up after he/she gets enough insulin.

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Neuropathy

Many dogs have hind leg weakness when they are first diagnosed with diabetes. This is sometimes the symptom which brings the pet to the vet's office. It's often falsely attributed to "getting older" by the caregiver. What is also known as "diabetic neuropathy" most often affects both rear legs and will progress symmetrically. With treatment and regulation, most dogs also have reversal of neuropathy.

This 1983 JAVMA abstract indicates that both the neuropathy and low blood pressure returned to normal following the control of the diabetes with insulin.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12002574?dopt=Abstract

Peripheral neuropathy and hypotension in a diabetic dog.
Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association-Nov 1983

Lucky never had neuropathy until we had to go to the pork NPH insulin, no matter how high his bg's were. He was having issues with the protamine suspension of the NPH, which is different from the way Lente works, and with the different preservatives. Phenol and meta-cresol are used as preservatives in NPH insulin, while the Lente type insulins can only use methylparaben; the preservatives used in NPH insulin would destroy the Lente insulin's effectiveness.

So we found out he was doing some more immune-mediated resistance to the protamine (needed more NPH than Lente to keep his bg's under control), and that he had issues with the NPH preservatives.

He had no problems when he was using the old Lilly pork Lente insulin and the problems created for him by the pork NPH were gone within 2 weeks of our getting the Caninsulin/Vetsulin.

He was totally back to normal again, just as it sounds like Mickey's doing! :D

[Debbie & Apollo]

Glad to hear Mickey is doing better! !!!

yeah Mickey -- yap it up!

It took awhile for Apollos hair to get a nice texture -- but it came back :D

Careful about too much weight gain....

Debbie and Apollo

[Mickey'sMom]

We are..he gets cooked white meat chicken w brown rice and green beans ( he loves that) // Cesar dog food ( it has 0 sugar and is low fat) and he gets a bit of white meat turkey treat after each shot, so we are watching his diet carefully, and believe me it isnt easy with 6 other furbabies in the house, we have to watch that Mickey doesnt "sneak" a bite out of the other pups bowls..and we have to put them up as soon as they are done eating...we even feed a couple of the dogs in seperate rooms to be able to get a tighter handle on who's eating what. Mickey gets fed first by himself in the small downstairs bathroom, he gets his shot then his treat, while Im feeding the other dogs, my husband or my son keeps Mickey occupied so he doesnt feel "left out" of the other dogs feeding time.. after they are all fed, we let them out in the yard ( its fenced in) so they can do some quick business and Mickey can run around and get some exercise which since the insulin he now does! We have a system here now that one of our babies has a life long illness, we are full time mommy and daddy to our pups.. ( I dont work ) so this is my "job" now, but I love them all and its worth it.

PS.. You can see some of my other babies here.... http://www.mydogspace.com/me/DoriLuvsDogs

[Debbie & Apollo]

Love the system!

Nice to know I am not the only one with OCD :D when it comes to the pup.

We have 2 dogs -- Apollo and a Maltese (Atlas)
Atlas has been great about leaving Apollos dish alone ---
now Apollo would love to grab Atlas's!
We stand between the bowls ;)

We have a schedule -- we are also now retired -
5AM potty and Denosyl
6AM food (with Potassium Citrate - he had bladder stones) and shot;
10 AM small feeding,
2 PM small feeding,
6 PM Food (with Milk Thistle) and shot;
9:30 small feeding.
9:35PM BED!

tomorrow we are heading to Ohio to see the kids and grandkids --
lots of activity! I am prepared and packed!

Debbie and Apollo

[Debbie & Apollo]

I never knew there was a My Pet Space Page! cool!
your babies are adorable!

After we get back I'll try and get a page started.

[Mickey'sMom]

Not wanting to sound dumb but what is OCD? :)

[Debbie & Apollo]

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder :)
Did you ever see the show "Monk" ?

[Mickey'sMom]

ahhhhh..NOW I remember!! lol

[Brandy mom]

I loved looking at the picture and reading the bio of each dog. You have a very beautiful family. Thanks for sharing the pictures.

Dawn and the girls

[Mickey'sMom]

Thank you,,There is no picture for our Molly..they only allow 6 dog profiles on each name...we have 7 dogs....lol

[k9diabetes]

Mickey's even cuter in a little larger version of his picture! What a sweet face. :rolleyes:

[Mickey'sMom]

Thank You, he is a cutie pie..We love all our furbabies..each one has a different personality it amazes me how well they all get along..guess its the pack thing :)

[Mickey'sMom]

Mickey is back from the vet...his weight hasnt gone up or down,,he has maintained a 16.3 lb weight for a couple of weeks,, his BG was 240...the hair loss has slowed down, so has his drinking and peeing. which has gone WAY down...He still has a big appetite,,but Mickey always did, so that is nothing out of the ordinary. The Vet is very pleased!! I am still concerned about the possible Cushings, but my vet said today that we wont even address that issue unless his drinking and peeing goes back up even with controlled BG. She said if he is cushoid its mild right now considering all his symptoms are improving so well with just insulin.. She said there is no use treating Cushings in a dog with so few symptoms at this point, but we will always watch for it in the future, she told us to test Mickeys BG at home if we want, but she suggested since he is doing so well,, to only check him a couple of times a week..she says there is really no use in checking him multiple times daily and to put him through all the poking all the time.. She said to relax and test him when we think something might be up or to just to keep a closer eye on him. Mickey is back to his "old self" so we will take her advice.. poking him twice a day and a couple of times a week with the meter should suffice.

[Mickey'sMom]

Question for some of the Cushings experienced in here. When I took Mickey to the Vet last week, There was a Lady in there with a 12 yr old Boston...the dog has Cushings ands was just diagnosed. The owner told me that she and the vet opted not to treat the Cushings because her peeing and drinking isnt too bad and her wetting the house is rare. She told me at 12 yrs of age, she opted with my vet not to put the dog through all the drugs and tests because of her advanced years. She is opting to let her baby be as comfortable as possible until she sees that she is suffering. I did not know what to say..She asked me about Mickey, because his coat is thin in spots, I told her Mickey has diabetes and gets 6 units of insulin 2x's a day and seems to be doing a lot better, he is acting like a pup again, I also told her he could possibly have onset Cushings but we are waiting to see more severe symptoms before giving any Cushings treatment, she asked how old Mickey was, I told her 6 next month, And she said VERY STRONGLY to me, Well he looks real happy... if he does have Cushings why dont you just let him live as long as he will with just treating his diabetes.. and not torture him with all those Cushings chemo drugs and tests? She said it is cruel to put them all through that just to keep them with us a while longer, That it is selfish..To tell you the truth I was rather thrown back by it. I asked my Vet about it when it was Mickeys turn to be seen, she just said that treating Cushings is the owners option, some do ,and some opt to let the dog live with it until they are not longer happy, she said the drugs can change the quality of life drastically and some owners do think its cruel. She told me that she thinks if Mickey has Cushings. he would handle treatment well. She said she would treat Mickey with trilostane and not lysodren because with 7 dogs, keeping track of water comsumption and the loading would be much more difficult....The bottom line here is, I feel totally upset about my conversation with that lady with the Boston, is treating a Cush dog really worth what they go through?

[Brandy mom]

I don't know what to say. I look at Marianne's Pebbles I think she has a great quality of life. I know pebbles take Trilostan.

I think the lady at the vet was just justifiy what she was doing. If her dog was diabetic would she treat it? Why wouldn't you want to treat a something that is treatable. Did she even try to treat her dog? I know that sounds harsh, but I think how she spoke to you is harsh.

Dawn and the girls

[Mickey'sMom]

She opted not to treat because her dog is 12 yrs old. Thats it

[BestBuddy]

I totally disagree with that "lady" at the vets. She can have her opinion but she should keep it to herself!

Buddy was dx with diabetes at age 9 and cushings at age 13. I thought long and hard about treating him because of his age but he was going downhill fast and I decided he deserved a chance. I wouldn't change that decision now even if I could and Buddy has just had his 15th birthday and still doing ok.

I know I would not still have him if I hadn't treated the cushings with trilostane. The good thing about these help sites is that there re a lot of different opinions and good information to help you understand the pros and cons of it all and then ultimately it is your decision (along with your vet) to decide how to proceed.

Jenny & Buddy

[We Hope]

For what it's worth to this discussion, Lucky was 14-15 when he was diagnosed with diabetes. It never occurred to any of us NOT to treat him.

We had questioned more than once if Cushing's might be the cause of his extreme insulin resistance when he was first diagnosed and once again when he was not doing well with anything other than bg control with pork NPH insulin. If Cushing's had been a factor at all, again, there was no question that if it was there, we would have been treating it with whatever treatment may have been the right choice for him.

You may run into some people who think it's cruel to give a dog two shots a day, while none of us here believe that for an instant.

My other thoughts re: the lady you ran into is that none of us have any idea in the world whether or not the untreated Cushing's might bring about diabetes. It's possible because the excess cortisol in the system brings about higher blood glucose levels.

While the beta cells of the pancreas are healthy and reacting normally, the pancreas sends out more insulin to handle the glucose. But it often can be like anything that's overworked in that the continual "push" for more insulin in this situation can "burn out" those pancreatic beta cells which produce insulin.

When that happens, the pancreas can't put out enough insulin to do the job that the excess cortisol has created and you have diabetes which was really caused by Cushing's.

She seemed not to raise an eyebrow about Mickey's getting insulin shots--it's possible that her dog could wind up with both Cushing's and diabetes. Let's all keep good thoughts that the vet can work with this lady and thus show her that Cushing's treatment isn't as horrible as she believes.

[rhodesian46]

Hi I am Pebbles Mommy Marianne. Pebbles is hypothyroid,diabetic and on trilostane for her cushings. She has come a long way from last August. Sometimes people are just plain ignorant. I can look back and honestly say that I did the right thing in treating her rather than having her organs get damaged and shutting down, That is inhumane. I believe to give it 150% and this way when the dog does die than I can say I did everything in my power to have her lead a good quality of life Cushings is a slow progressive disease The trilo is recommended for dogs with many endocrine disorders not because of water consumption and of many dogs but that it is safer for them. I too have 6 dogs ,2 cats.1 bird and the neighbors 19 yr old outside cat named Orfeo! I do water consumption tests on Pebbles maybe 1 x a month to gauge her drinking. Yes it is hard when you have all those dogs but I literally watch for her to get up and put the bowl down for her to drink I do this the same day I do 12hour curves It makes it easier Starting a dog on trilo is easier as you don't have to watch when they are loaded but you do need to watch for other signs such a weakness,inappentance.lethargy and bgs that could go too low. Dogs don't generally die of too high of a bg but do die from too low of one.. Most dogs have a reduction of insulin after the cushings is controlled But not Pebbles She didn't follow the rule She is still on 49 u of Novolin N bid and has never had a decrease!. pebbles quality of life is good She is an old dog 10 1/2 yrs She Has never been real active Kinda lazy. Loves to pee. poop and run back in. All 6 dogs are lounging as I speak It is 100 degrees in Austin. I do exercise Pebbles daily for 15 mns every day This keeps whatever muscle is left in good shape. She has lost quite a bit of muscle tone in the rear and will not regain it. Her hair is coming in clumps and she is battling a bacteria skin infection, But is she happy Yes! Did I do the right thing in treating her Hell ya!! Please don't let this woman irritate you. She is a butt and truly doesn't love her dog
Marianne and Pebbles

[Mickey'sMom]

Thank you all SO much......We will treat Mickey no matter what he has...as a loving dog owner I could do no less for my little guy,,I just think that lady took me off guard and I hate to admit it, hurt me at a nervous moment, cause I was very concerned about Mickeys thinning hair at the time and his BG level. But Mickey is a happy energenic little dog and when he looks at me with those brown eyes and licks my face, I know I will fight for him until HE wants me to stop..

[Brandy mom]

You said thinning hair and it got me thinking. Brandy had alpicia(sp) as a puppy. Every February she would get to thin spots on her back. Each side of the rump forward towards the front. The vet told me this is because she is a black dog and doesn't get enough sun in the winter. By May the hair would start to grow back. There was medication for this, but because it didn't effect anything else we didn't treat. The year that Brandy was DX with diabetes I noticed the hair wasn't growing back. I thought with all that was going on with diabetes it could just take longer. All of a sudden Brandy insulin needs changed(she needed more insulin). Then she got very lazy. All she wanted to do was lay around. So the vet suggest to run a T4 test. Sure enough her Thyroid was bad. Now in June it was fine. By August it was bad. Now two years later after some adjustment of the thyroid medication. She hasn't had the bald spots in the winter. I have been follow along with Mickey story, but I can't remember if you had his thyroid check.

Dawn and the girls

[Mickey'sMom]

No.. no thyroid check.. Ill ask the vet about it..thanks!!

[Mickey'sMom]

Mickey is starting to "tense up" at shot time,,Mickey doesnt have real loose skin to begin with, but when he tenses up its makes it harder to get some skin to inject. In the beginning Mickey was real good with the shots, acting like he couldnt even feel them, Now he keeps turning his head and trying to "move out of my way" We dont give him his shots in the same locations, we move them around all the time, He gets a little treat after the shot, and seems to have forgotten all about it. But the actual shot time is getting a little difficult. any suggestings?

[Debbie & Apollo]

Hi --
certain days giving shots are better than others :confused:

I think you are doing fine by
1) rotating the areas.
We 2) turn Apollo to the right (for the AM shot)and left (for the PM shot)
My DH finds giving a shot one side easier than the other - not sure why.

Tonight when I did the shot Apollo cried out!! -- I have only had that happen a few times in over a year -- I don't know why.... I guess we hit a nerve.

3) I massage his neck first.

4) I give a treat after --
5) and lots of love and hugs....
6) maybe alternate the type of treats.
7) Aahh we also try to get everyone that may be around to stand still, and try for no noise. Atlas, our Maltese, has learned to sit quietly.... when Apollo has the shot over he jumps up as if to say 'Yippy!' now a treat!

All in all -- it has to be done --- 8) I have to remember to relax :)

good luck Debbie and Apollo

[Mickey'sMom]

You may have a point about the noise..we have dogs,,there is a lot of movement around by the other dogs at shot time. Maybe I should take hin into another quiet room where its just me and him, I talk real sweet to him and rub his neck, but he is still tensing up..I think Ill try bringing him into a quiet room tomorrow.

[k9diabetes]

Shots going any better?

[Mickey'sMom]

Yes Mickeys shots are doing better, seems to be getting more used to it, especially the treat after.:) he goes back to the vet tomorrow, We were a little alarmed when we tested him the other day and he was at 400 bg.. :( The vet increased his insulin to 7 units 2x a day instead of six...He was holding in the low 200's then zap! a 400 reading. Mickey was real stressed that day, got into a little posturing fight with one of our other dogs ( they get a little jealous of each other sometimes) He tested at 240 this morning and keytones negative, we still check for keytones daily. I encourage Mickey to run around the back yard with me to exercise him. Still no treatment for the possible Cushings situation, his little pot belly has gone away, his peeing and drinking is down, so the vet sees no reason to treat for cushings, though I still suspect it. (might just be my worrying ways)

[We Hope]

Dori,

In some dogs, cats and people, stress can send one's bg's soaring; for others, it's just the opposite, they can get into low bg's.

It's not uncommon for cats to be diabetes-free, but go to the vet and come up with a "diabetes-zone" reading if blood tests are taken. The stress of the experience sends their bg's up temporarily, which their properly working pancreas will deal with.

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Regulation_problems#Activity.2FStress

Stress can be applied to many common situations. It can take the form of moving to a different home, even with the same caregivers, the addition of a new family member, human or pet, or other more subtle things we understand the reasons for but are unable to explain to our pets.
Cats--with or without diabetes--are prone to stress hyperglycemia which temporarily raises blood glucose levels.
Persons and pets with diabetes are likely to experience hyperglycemia from experiences deemed stressful to them. There are also those with diabetes who go in the opposite direction--toward hypoglycemia as a response to what they consider stressful.

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperglycemia#Stress_hyperglycemia

Stress hyperglycemia (the "white coat" syndrome some pets display with visits to the veterinarian) can approach diabetic levels, and can in some instances be high enough to cause glycosuria--glucose in the urine. (Personal experience of one canine caregiver indicates a reading can be 50+ points higher, depending on whether or not the pet liked the doctor or tech doing the blood draw.) Both fructosamine and glycosylated hemoglobin tests can help distinguish stress hyperglycemia from diabetic hyperglycemia when viewed in conjunction with other test results and clinical signs.

The canine caregiver above is me. Lucky was fine with all but one person doing blood draws. I know nothing "bad" ever happened with the person, but for some reason he wasn't fond of her. Depending on who was at which practice at the time we needed to test, there were times when the person would need to do the draw. When we'd fax and phone his results to John, who was at the other practice, we'd need to indicate if this person did the blood draw or not, because he and I would need to factor that into the results.

His buddies could do whatever they needed to do for him, and he was tightly regulated enough to have bg's of 85 between 8-10 hours after breakfast and morning insulin. He just didn't care for the lady and let it show. :D

Kathy

[k9diabetes]

Could be a 1 unit increase is too much. I adjust Chris' insulin by quarter units as he too uses a small dose.

Since he was already down into the 200s, maybe go 6.5 units instead.

Sometimes it's like there's a threshold and 6 units isn't enough but 7 units is too much. I remember Paul's dog Zip was like this, even though he uses a lot more insulin. A 1 unit increase had a very large effect on blood glucose at that threshold.

You also can adjust food slightly, say giving the 7 units but also more food. You can often fine-tune food in tinier increments than insulin.

Natalie

[Mickey'sMom]

Mickey is back from the vet....Meter BG 150...Blood Test BG 114... potasium/ Normal...kidney function...Normal..Sodium..Normal... Dr is VERY pleased...in two weeks she will be checking Liver enzymes...Peeing and drinking back to normal.. appetite..good... coat still thin but she says that takes time..She is really doubting Cushings now. :)

PS Also Mickey's muscle mass is coming back and his weight is maintaining at 17 lbs, and he jumps up on chairs again and into our laps...

[We Hope]

Dori,

I know people with diabetes who would LOVE to have the same results as Mickey! :)

When Lucky was diagnosed, the thing that was "off" on his panel besides the bg's were the liver values. They were slightly off and it really scared me, because we'd lost the little one before him to liver cancer. I was told that they weren't that badly off and once we got his diabetes under control, they'd go back to normal ones, which they did.

School hasn't started yet, but I think Mickey is an Honors Student! :D

Kathy

[Mickey'sMom]

Mickey back from the vets today...BG at 185...they did some blood work ..a little low on potassium ( she gave him a potassium pill) his orig alk was over 5000...its now under 200!
kidneys normal..adrenals..normal..lymph nodes...normal..Next month she is doing a thyroid check to address his thin coat, because she said at this point with these blood tests she doesnt even suspect cushings anymore, especially since his BG is regulated. He was also a little high on calcium, but not enough she said for any concern. I was so happy with the report, I forgot to ask her for a copy of it..lol..and his chorestrol (sp) is back to normal.. :)

[Shaggydog]

You must be thrilled with those results! Way to go Mickey!

[We Hope]

Mickey is walkin' the walk and talkin' the talk!

Mickey--You Go, Boy!

Kathy

[k9diabetes]

Dori,

I'm so happy to hear so many good reports about Mickey. I think you're going to find the whole idea of Cushings going away. Could be that with better blood sugar and everything more stable the coat will improve on its own.

Natalie

[Mickey'sMom]

Dont know , we are still concerned over the thinning coat. his belly is basically bare and under his rear legs is bear..the rest is thin except on his legs and back, even the neck area is thin. weird.....Maybe the thyroid test in Sept will show something, and since his drinking and peeing is back to Mickey normal, Yes I think cushings can be ruled out...

[k9diabetes]

Thyroid is a good possibility. Kathy's dog's coat was poor due to an allergy to elements of the insulin suspension so allergies are another possibility.

[We Hope]

Dori,

This wouldn't apply to you and Mickey except from the angle of learning what can cause issues. You're using pork Lente, not pork NPH.

When we got Lucky regulated, it was on Lilly's pork Lente. We had no problems at all with his coat, skin, etc. When Lilly stopped making pork Lente insulin, there was no Vetsulin yet in the US, so we had to use the only other intermediate-acting pork insulin available. At the time, that was Lilly's pork NPH; we had to use this for Lucky while we applied for permission to import Caninsulin (called Vetsulin here).

Lucky was on the pork NPH for about 2 months. During that time, he developed neuropathy (had none before--not even before we could control his bg's), had constantly irritated eyes (didn't before). His skin was terribly dry (not before) and when he got his fall/winter coat in, it was thin, dry, dull and lifeless. He looked like he'd developed some other problem; tests showed none. He spent most of his days sleeping--not happy and active as before.

And so we asked ourselves what was different here--difference was the protamine suspension of the NPH. Lente is suspended by the size of its crystals; it takes longer for the larger 70% fraction Ultralente crystals to be absorbed by the body than it does for the 30% Semilente fraction. There are also differences in the preservatives of the two--Lente's only preservative is methylparaben--NPH has two--phenol and meta-cresol.

We knew we had a happy, healthy dog when he used pork Lente insulin; the fact that the NPH was pork kept his bg's on control, but the rest of him was a mess. Within 2 weeks of starting Caninsulin, he shed the sparse fall/winter coat he grew with pork NPH; replacing it was his normal, thick, healthy, shiny one for winter. His skin was no longer dry, eye irritation gone and neuropathy gone also. He went back to being happy and active once more.

So you see what sensitivities and allergies can do when they're the problem.

HTH!

Kathy

[Mickey'sMom]

Update on Mickey.....Went to the vet Wednsday the 10th..Mickys BG is holding at 107-225...potasium back to normal..calcium a tad high so the vet wants to do a fasting test for fat in his blood at 8:15 am before he eats or gets a shot after an overnight fast. we are doing that in 2 weeks...The vet said not to worry the calcium was only slightly high but she just wants to make sure there isnt another problem..Mickey fur is growing back everywhere except his lower chest and belly..he weighed in at 18.3 up 4 oz from a month ago.

[Mickey'sMom]

PS he is still VERY active..playing with his toys again and his peeing and drinking is normal

[We Hope]

Dori,

Mickey fits the picture of what a well-regulated dog with diabetes should be--it should be impossible for one to know by sight or observation that he/she has diabetes--just as you can't see someone on the street and know that he/she has diabetes.

Don't give up hope re: the rest of Mickey's fur:

http://www.provet.co.uk/health/diseases/insulinineffectiveness.htm

INSULIN INEFFECTIVENESS IN DIABETICS
Presentation given by Prof Richard Nelson DVM Diplomate ACVIM at the North American Veteriary Conference 2001.

In this, Dr. Nelson talks about what the clinical signs of diabetes are--poor hair coat and weight loss are among them.

Mickey's now doing well with his diabetes being regulated now, so that should mean there's plenty of hope for the rest of his hair! ;)

Kathy

[rhodesian46]

YEAH MICKEY Good reprt for MOM!!!!

[k9diabetes]

Cool!!! :cool: Congratulations!!!

We met a dog on our trip who had ACL surgery in March and still hasn't grown back 95% of the fur shaved for surgery. She has one patch that filled in, one large patch on her back that grew some stubbly stuff, and one large patch on her leg that's grown nothing at all.

I understand that northern breeds especially can take a long time to grow any of their fur back. This girl was a mix of some kind, spaniel plus, and apparently it's not uncommon for it to take quite a while for fur to grow back.

Natalie

[Mickey'sMom]

Mickey is a Bichon/poodle I really dont care too much about his fur since he is behaving like a pup again and even likes sleeping in the bed again ( he used to sleep on cold surfaces before insulin treatment) I was just concerned that there might be another health reason as to why his fur hasnt grown totally back. I cant complain with a BG reading of 107 and holding , and that his extra peeing and drinking is gone. Our vet thinks we are fantastic the way we watch over him and his care , especially since we have a total of 7 dogs, I am amazed that she is amazed, must be a lot of dog parents who dont care, but our pups are like our children. I always say if you cant love a dog or cat or any pet as a family member, then dont have a pet at all. God gave us animals to care for and watch over and to love, that there are people who treat animals like they are nothing is what amazes and saddens me.

[k9diabetes]

Go Mickey!! Quite a difference from a few months ago. Congratulations!!

You are a saint for taking in so many pups. I couldn't do it!

Natalie

[Mickey'sMom]

Natalie most of out pups are rescues, we cant resist an abandones baby needing a good home and love,.... Mickey is going to the vet again Wednesday for another test forgot what the vet called it...she said the fat in his blood was a little elevated 2 hrs after he ate she wants to do a fasting test for fat in his blood at 815 in the morning after he hasnt eated since 7pm the night before, she says there is no real cause to worry, she justs wants to rule out the possiblity of another problem, does anyone know what the test is called? I forgot.

[We Hope]

Dori,

I think this is what you want:

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperlipidemia

A term meaning too many fats, or lipids, in the circulating blood. Untreated or poorly treated diabetics don't metabolize fats properly, due to lack of enough insulin to do so. The symptom, or sign, that this process does not occur properly is hyperlipidemia.

With regard to hyperlipidemia caused by untreated/poorly treated diabetes, the symptom should resolve after proper treatment which provides sufficient insulin for a normal metabolic process.

There are other causes for hyperlipidemia which are not diabetes-related; poor diet is one. In this case, sufficient insulin is not the answer--changing food choices is.

Hyperlipidemia is associated with diabetes, pancreatitis, Cushing's Disease, and hypothyroidism, among others. This 2004 ACVIM Abstract (#216)suggests a strong association between hyperlipidemia and hypothyroidism in dogs.

Wiki page has links, including this one:

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2003&PID=6509&Category=1009&O=Generic

WSAVA 2003 Hyperlipidaemia in Dogs and Cats

DIAGNOSIS OF HYPERLIPIDAEMIA

"There are a number of useful and relatively inexpensive tests available.

1. Measurement of serum TG and CHL. If a serum sample obtained after a 12-hour fast is lactescent it is usually caused by increased concentrations of TG (usually > 11.00mmol/L, and probably cholesterol related to elevations in CM and/or VLDL. The presence of hypercholesterolaemia in the absence of hypertriglyceridemia may not give rise to visibly lipaemic serum but it can have a hazy appearance. Normal values for TG and CHL are:

a. Dogs: 0.56-1.7 mmol/L CHL 2.6-7 mmol/L

b. Cats: 0.2-1.1mmol/L CHL 1-4.4 mmol/L

DIAGNOSTIC APPROACH

"A diagnostic investigation plan for the dog or cat with hyperlipidemia is suggested below.

"Ensure the animal has been fasted for at least 12 hours. If lipaemia persists then further investigation is warranted."

HTH!

Kathy

[Mickey'sMom]

Kathy thats helps a lot...Mickeys Diabetes is under control,,His BG stays between 107-200
the vets says there is most likely no reason for concern since the last test was 2 hrs after he ate...she just wants to check his fasting level to make sure there is no issue..thanks for the info!

[We Hope]

Dori,

I think Mickey will pass tomorrow as he's done with all his tests so far--with flying colors! :D

Kathy

[Mickey'sMom]

TY I think so too....his test is Wednesday...Ill tell everyone when its over....

[CarolW]

TY I think so too....his test is Wednesday...Ill tell everyone when its over....

Today is Tuesday [grin] - I'll await your report. This is the third thread I've now read all the way through from the beginning. Again, I was on the edge of my seat all the way through the thread, and learned a ton!

Dori - what sticks in my mind is the remarks of that sad lady at the vet's - ignorant remarks; they can be hurtful - they make US sad - poor dogs with such caregivers. Also, that dogs do have their preferences for just who handles them, and I will bet you a lot of that has to do with how well the handlers read the dogs (see the works of Turid Rugaas, amply pointed to on Coherent Dog, my web site).

But most of all, what sticks with me is the same as the other two threads I've now read all the way through - Marianne and Pebbles, and Marion and Cara. That is, the fabulous bond that develops - well, it was already there - because of the dedication of the Human Caregiver. the dogs - well, they are made that way; it's who they are - they come through with as much devotion as WE can give THEM. At least as much, and often, more (when the human end of it fails).

Thank you all - and thanks, Natalie and Kathy, not only for your educational posts, but also for the organization of one dog, one thread; as that is what makes learning work best.

Tue, 23 Sep 2008 07:29:22

[k9diabetes]

It is SO different doing one dog, one thread. And so much better.

I occasionally get asked to look at posts for a dog on the Cushings board who has diabetes and Cushings and sometimes, as in Jeanne and Kiska's case, there were already something like 20 pages of posts about Kiska when I was asked to contribute regarding the diabetes.

I was able to come to a single link and catch up on everything that had been written about her despite coming into the middle of a months-long conversation.

Even worse were the days on the other forum when old posts rolled off after a few months - all that information contained in dozens of separate threads just disappeared 90 or so days later. Not that you could find it anyway... the search function was terrible.

I love doing it this way.

Natalie

[Mickey'sMom]

Mickey is back from the vet..No fat in his blood after an overnight fast! He is Ok!! :)

[Cara's Mom]

Great news!!

[We Hope]

Mickey aces another test!!!!

Dori, are you sure he isn't "teacher's pet"? :)

Kathy

[ladysmom06]

Hi Dori,

GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! Happy:D:D:D:D to hear that Mickey is doing so well. Hugs to the two of you.

Luv,
Lynne and Lady

[Ricksma]

Ah, this is wonderful news!!! Oh Mickey...you're so fine, you're so fine you blow my mind...hey Mickey.....


Congratulations!!!

Love and hugs, Teresa and Ricky

[k9diabetes]

:cool: Way to go Mickey!!

[k9diabetes]

Ah Mickey you're so fine, you're so fine you blow my mind... Hey Mickey...

(Sorry - the song just popped into my head and I couldn't help myself)

[Mickey'sMom]

Ah Mickey you're so fine, you're so fine you blow my mind... Hey Mickey...

(Sorry - the song just popped into my head and I couldn't help myself)

Thats so funny,,I sing that to Mickey all the time...

"hey Mickey your so fine, come over here its needle time, hey mickey, hey Mickey, .....Hey Mickey its a pity you dont understand. I give a little poke and then you get some ham...Hey mickey... hey Mickey!


PS he really gets a chicken treat.....lol

[k9diabetes]

Ha! I like your lyrics! Natalie

[Mickey'sMom]

I have a question about dog diabetes and blindness,,,Is it possible for a pup w/diabetes to go blind without developing cataracts? Mickey seems to be having trouble focusing on things and his eyes are still clear of any cataracts, he shuts them a lot now and seems to follow shadows moving around , sometimes he looks right at me and sometimes right past me,,,Im a bit confused

[k9diabetes]

There are other ways a dog can go blind. And the cataracts early on can be difficult to see. We caught a glimpse of them in the right light early on with Chris before his whole lens became opaque.

It sounds like the vet needs to take a look at Mickey's eyes ASAP.

Most eye disorders are pretty painful so it concerns me that he's shutting his eyes a lot.

Natalie

[Mickey'sMom]

He keeps them wide open, until I get close to him to pet him..he shuts them right before I pet his head...hes acting normally..not rubbing his eyes or fussing..Maybe Im just being paranoid, Im on top of Mickey all the time, and any little change makes my mommy alarm go off.....

[We Hope]

Dori,

Are you sure Mickey isn't having some low bg's? When anyone with diabetes goes low, things can seem different to them, even "fuzzy".

When people with diabetes go low, everything can seem fine one minute and not the next.

You might want to do some extra testing to see if this is Mickey's problem. I believe I'd check with Mickey's vet on Monday to see what's wrong, if anything.

Kathy

[Mickey'sMom]

ok thanks ill call her....mickeys BG stays between 107 and 200

[Mickey'sMom]

Well I have no doubt now that my baby is going blind....while going to feed him this morning my sweetheart walked right into the wall and missed the door way.. :( even though his eyes appear clear I guess they are not...He isnt in any pain you can see by the way he is acting, but this is breaking my heart ....anyone who can offer experience in what it is like to have a blind pup, please help....especially on his day to day care around the house.

[We Hope]

Dori,

We have members here whose dogs went blind--Natalie's Chris and all he was able to do come to mind immediately, as does eyelostit's Niki.

If it is cataracts, Mickey can have them removed and then he will be able to see well again. The surgeries are expensive, but Mickey is a young guy--you might talk with your vet about this type of surgery.

I'll post some links to websites for people with blind dogs:

http://www.blinddogs.com/

http://www.blinddogs.net/

http://www.eyevet.info/blind.html

How Do I Deal With a Blind Pet?

"If you woke up tomorrow and couldn't see, you would eventually adjust to being blind and learn where things are in your house. It would take time and lots of work and patience. Your pet too will learn where everything is and will adjust to your house and yard if given time. Here are some ideas that will help you and your pet adjust to its blindness sooner.

"Your pet isn't painful and doesn't need to be put to sleep just because it is blind.

"Don't re-arrange your furniture if your pet is mostly indoors. If your pet is an outdoor pet, don't plan major landscape projects.

"If you have a hot tub or pool, a cover or barrier is necessary because your pet could fall into the water, not find the sides and drown.

"Walk your dog on a leash. You are his eyes. Anticipate problems and steer clear. Keep talking to your dog. Your voice will guide him. If you have an outdoor pet and no fence, please check into an "invisible fence."

"Feed your pet and keep its water dish in exactly the same place each and every day. This area will then become a site for reference if your pet becomes disoriented.

"Put your chair back under the table after meals. Things that are left out will cause your pet to bump and lead to disorientation.

"If your pet gets disoriented, take him/her to its bed or food bowl. This will be a land mark that will re-orient your pet.

"Until your pet learns about stairs, you will need to place a barrier to prevent him/her from falling down the stairs. The same is true for stair landings.
Most clients remark that going up and down stairs is the most difficult of all things to "re-learn." Be patient, your pet is trying to do its best."

http://www.eyevet.info/blind2.html

Coping with a blind dog.

The last 2 links are from a veterinary opthalmologist.

I'm sure our members will give you some of their personal advice and tips regarding how they coped with their dog's blindness.

Kathy

PS--Denise's Bogie had diabetes since he was a young guy like Mickey. He had cataract surgery done a long time ago. I'm sure Denise will be glad to post here for you about Bogie's surgery.

[Mickey'sMom]

Thanks Kathy...cant see any cateracts at all ..his eyes appear clear..another quick question...since we have 6 other pups besides Mickey, will the other dogs be able to sense Mickey is blind? they seem to be giving him room and not walking real close to him on walks..and maybe its just me, but they seem to be more gentle around him, not provoking him to play with them

[We Hope]

Dori,

Animals often have a lot more sense than people! :) He's one of the group and they're trying to help their buddy.

I'd get with Mickey's vet ASAP regarding Mickey's sight problem, so you know her input on what the cause is.

Kathy

[Mickey'sMom]

We are in touch with the vet , I called her, waiting for a call back.. wont hear anything until close to the end of the day..Mickey doesnt seem to be in any kind of distress ..in fact he is sleeping at the moment, so any kind of pain is unlikely. We just didnt expect him to start losing his sight so soon after beginning treatment ( about 5 months) and with no visable signs of cataracts. PS he is still jumping up on the sofa with no problem, goes up and down the stairs slowly, especially if he is following his brother and sisters.

[We Hope]

Dori,

Please let us know!

Kathy

[Mickey'sMom]

Dori,

Please let us know!

Kathy


I will..:) its more then likely what happens to pups with diabetes, I just have to get used to the changes, my heart bleeds for my pup because he doesnt understand why all this is happening

[We Hope]

Dori,

Somehow, they adjust. The sheltie we had when I was a kid went deaf from an antibiotic shot--you see the story in one of our threads. We suspected but didn't actually know until my folks took her to "Grampa".

Deafness from the antibiotic had no "fix" to it--no operation or hearing aid would work. At the time, there was nothing anywhere as to advice about deaf dogs.

She was not yet a year old when she lost her hearing. We had to come up with things as we went along since there was no "guidebook". Can tell you that she didn't miss her hearing at all--she led a normal, active life in spite of that and also in spite of being diagnosed with epilepsy. We communicated with her through hand signals.

If Mickey does have cataracts, as we think, there's hope for him to get good vision back through surgery.

Hang in there, we have a lot of people here who have been through this and I'm sure will be glad to talk with you about their experiences. :)

Kathy

[k9diabetes]

Hi Dori,

I think of all the things we had to deal with associated with Chris' diabetes, his going blind was the hardest for us.

And something that didn't bother Chris much at all!

Three to six months is a pretty common timeframe for diabetes-induced cataracts. Chris lost his blood glucose control (after "honeymooning") around February and was mostly blind by July of that year, 2004. So he was blind for a full four years.

And in his case we didn't feel like the benefits of cataract surgery outweighed the risks as he had some eye problems and other issues. He was so well adjusted to being blind that it really didn't hold him back much.

It tends to sneak up because Mickey and Chris kind of adjust a little at a time to diminishing sight and then it seems, because they can't compensate anymore, like it happens overnight.

So what was having a blind dog like?

We didn't move the furniture unless there was a serious need and we tried to keep obstacles out of the middle of travel areas. We covered or protected him from any sharp or dangerous objects in the house and backyard. And then we went on with life. :)

Chris waded and even sometimes swam in the river near home on a long lead so we could reel him back in if need be. He played in snow. He went on his walk every day - he'd always been walked on a leash. He travelled with us, staying in unfamiliar motel rooms. He learned to navigate the house and did if he felt like it or just pinballed off the walls if he didn't! ;)

We were always sad about it but Chris took it in stride rather easily. That was his way. It's a little more difficult for dogs who are more anxious. Chris was always pretty mellow. But I know of few dogs who did not adjust after a month or two. Some seemed not to be adjusting and had the surgery so no way to know if they would have eventually.

As far as the surgery goes, it does come with the risk that they can lose the eye(s) from complications that develop after the surgery. In my experience, I'd say maybe 10-20% of the dogs I've been acquainted with did have complications after the surgery... not life threatening - they just wound up having to have one or both eyes removed later.

Mickey will do fine!!!!!

And I have no doubt his buddies are compensating and looking out for him. Other dogs and cats always were curious about why Chris didn't make eye contact. Our cat Katie knew to get out of his way; Gus, not so much...

Natalie

[Mickey'sMom]

Well I just spoke to the vet 2 hours ago..I told her exactly what Mickey is doing....We have a scheduled appoint for 10/15...from what I told her she didnt think it was a emergency as of yet...since Mickey is showing no signs of distress, no dripping eyes or seen cataracts, his eye sight is probley just starting to fail...she said if he starts bumping into things a lot,,rubbing at his eyes, or seems to be uncomfortable bring him in right away...regarding surgery..she said it depends on the dog, and if he is a good candidate for it..she says sometimes for the pup, the surgery is worse then the blindness..it all depends on the dog, see suggests a wait and watch for a little while, the other dogs are giving him space and not trying to engage him in playing ( even though Mickey started some play today) the other dogs watch for him on walks, so I can only guess they know there is something up with his sight. Mickey seems not to be bothered by it so far...The vet told us that even if Mickey is a good candidate for the surgery ,,more times then not ,the after care and complications after can be really hard on the pup, worse then the blindness..but it is basically up to us to judge after we see how Mickey is coping. she is much more concerned about Mickey getting infections then the actual blindness possibility. Soon I assume we will be making a very serious decision on how to go foward....... Love to you all....

[We Hope]

Dori,

As your vet said, take things a step at a time. Mickey is doing well with his diabetes. Not long ago, the thought was that he might also have Cushing's; that turned out not to be the case.

Mickey has a long and happy life ahead of him now that his diabetes in control. You have that long and happy life to share with him--you love him, PERIOD. Mickey knows that and that's the most important thing of all! :)

Kathy

[eyelostit]

Your other dogs should sense he is blind, as my Chief and Gandy did with Niki, Chief was a big dog and just let Niki walk over him :) The dogs just know, its amazing how smart they are.

[Denise]

Hi Dori!

I was frantic when Bogie started showing signs of vision loss. He was just 5 when dx'ed with diabetes (Sept. 2001) and his eye sight started to fail by Dec. I used to toss him his vitamins and one day he couldn't follow it on the floor. By Feb. he couldn't follow his large stuffed toys when they were thrown for him.

He had his cataracts removed in April 2002. The aftercare scared me cause it was hard to keep Bogie from running and jumping but that good old cone collar kept him pretty depressed at first and he didn't try things he shouldn't. He had both removed and lens implants and one eye needed drops for longer than the other, no big deal after the first couple weeks of "through the night drops". (since ten I had Molly's cataracts removed and they didn't have me doing the middle of the night drops) Bogie had dry eye a year or so later but that was treated and he actually didn't have to have life long meds for that like is the norm. I lost Bogie this past August to cancer but his eyes were good all those 7 years!

When I got Molly ( then a 6 year old diabetic chihuahua) she had the start of cataracts. She soon had the surgery too and did even better than Bogie, no lingering inflammation as he had. That was 2 years ago and all is well.

I have a HUGE multi pet home and my biggest fear with blindness was the trouble a dog might have when he/she didn't see that cat or that they might get snappy with other animals when they were startled.

I went to the vet college and both surgeries were roughly 1200.00 per eye.

Keep your chin up! Mickey is a cutie!!! (I just got a 3 year old Malt 2 weeks ago) There is no rush and you have done what you needed to do, you are taking him to the doc soon!!!

[Mickey'sMom]

Thanks Denise...Its very hard for me to deal with this at times....I know Mickey is confused and easily upset by his vision weakening..he has his moments and they make me cry...this is so unfair. No pup deserves to go through this :(

[CarolW]

Hi Dori,

I just caught up reading your thread. Kathy had a whole bunch of great links for you; I learned a fair bit on the blinddogs list- at least the crucial stuff. I learned from Kumbi as well!

I think it's just wonderful that your other animals are coping with Mickey's blindness. That also indicates to me that you take great, excellent, care of all of them, sensitive to their interactions, aware of those - that you provide for them and shepherd them, so they can make full use of their own inclinations always to avoid conflict; to work for peace. GREAT JOB, Dori!

I see others have also been contributing useful information. I can't add much, but can report a bit on my experience with Kumbi going mostly blind.

Kumbi started bumping into things in the house about five months after he was diagnosed with diabetes. I had seen the cataracts coming; that's different from Mickey. I'm glad you're in close touch with your vet about Mickey's eyes.

I also agree with - was it Kathy? - who said the surgery can be worse than the blindness. This depends on a whole bunch of different circumstances. With me, there was nothing to decide; there's no way I can afford the surgery, even if Kumbi were a good candidate for it. And I'd have to travel; both dogs would have to travel with me - they cannot manage it; too much stress - dislocation! Kumbi had turned 10 a few months before he lost his vision; Kwali was 12 already.

So, I went to the blinddogs list, where I learned a few useful things. And I watched Kumbi around the house. I put up a few barriers outdoors, trying to keep Kumbi from falling into the perimeter ditch (deep! - steep angles) that surround my trailer house. He did once fall in! He managed to scramble out - he arrived soaking wet at the front door!

Kumbi can't see right in front of his nose. I don't move my furniture, and I see him feeling his way, both with paws and with his body, as we have a lot of narrow spaces here. I leave a jacket hanging on a chair near the front door, and he uses that as a guide! It's nice and soft!

Dogs notice textures under their paws, too; that might help sometimes. Like Mickey, Kumbi jumps up on the couch, and also, he climbs steps to Our Bed, and descends them as well. I added extra panels from ex-pens to make extra fences, to keep Kumbi from falling - I put them alongside the Bed-Steps, for instance.

One of the hardest things for US to do is to avoid communicating our unhappiness to the dog, but they read us to perfection, so you might need to work on yourself for a bit, about feeling it's unfair. Of course it's unfair, but as others have said, dogs adapt very well, though they can easily be depressed for a few weeks at first.

From all your descriptions, I think maybe Mickey has some vision - at a guess, maybe he sees light and dark, maybe some motion, possibly, in his peripheral vision but not straight ahead, in front of his nose.

My biggest feeling right now is that if you can act cheerful, even if you don't feel that way, that will be a help to Mickey. Be ready to praise him for his successes - give him a bit of a cuddle!

I'll keep a close eye (ha!) on this thread, and try to jump in if I see anything I might possibly help with a bit. Both for Mickey and for you!

Love and hugs,
Wed, 1 Oct 2008 10:34:20

[Mickey'sMom]

Carol ..thank you so much for all the tips and help! I think this is harder on me then Mickey..lol... Mickey get tons of love and support from my husband, myself, our vet and his pup brother and sisters. Mickey is growling now at people whose voice he doesnt reconize ( like my sons fiance) that I guess is just his stress over his lost sight. He is getting lots of love and hugs for support...( I could use a few ) lol

[Cara's Mom]

Hi Dori,
We just wanted to sent YOU LOTS AND LOTS OF LOVE AND HUGS!!!!!!!!!!!

[ladysmom06]

Hi Dori,

He is getting lots of love and hugs for support...( I could use a few ) lol

Lady and me are sending lots of love and hugs from our house to yours.

Luv,
Lynne and Lady

[Mickey'sMom]

Thanks to all of you , You would not believe the courage and strength I get from coming here, posting and reading all of your stories of victory and heartbreak...The worse part for me is how helpless I feel sometimes against what is happening to one of my babies, because they truely are our children. I wish you all knew Mickey, he is such a gentle loving spirit, as a matter of fact, of all our pups, he has the sweetest demeanor and attitude. There isnt a mean bone in his little body. Thats why I said before how cruel and unfair this is. Maybe its just a little self pity in there too, dont know... If love could make Mickey healthy like before he would be Underdog... Thanks for listening.

[Dollydog]

Hi,
I've just been catching up on your thread and am sorry to read of Mickey's diminishing sight. Lady's sight has been going very slowly for the last year. Our vet was so worried about her sight when she first had diabetes as it took so long to get some regulation between the diabetes and the Cushings. But her sight was great for the first 9 months after being diagnosed with diabetes.

I've had time to adjust physically and emotionally to what she's going through. Every once in awhile we can tell that she is seeing less. Her peripheral vision has been gone for awhile...maybe a few months. She can still see something but the squirrels in the back yard are very safe from her as she can only hear them and see them if they move right in front of her. I had a chance last winter in Texas to see how things were changing for her. She could not tell when the pavement dropped (curb) if the two colors of pavement were the same color. I started using the words up or down when we came to uneven pavement. At home we have a light colored carpet to distinguish the one step from the house into the porch. She couldn't see that step before as the carpet on the two steps was the same color. Last spring she could distinguish the difference in the daytime but not at night.

I had done a lot of reading about what others had done to make their dogs' environment more comfortable with the loss of their sight. That really helps. Sometimes it can be funny when we see her trying to find something she knows is there but can't see it. At times I've been ready to just bawl when I see her disoriented or confused but I know that will only upset her...so the laughter or humor of a situation is more beneficial to both of us. Even my husband isn't as upset at the diminishing sight as he used to be. She is doing an awesome job of listening to me and letting me guide her to something. If she stumbles or bumps into something she just trys again. "This way" was always an instruction that I've used with her on a walk and it is coming in so handy right now. She seems to respond more to the leash being pulled one way or the other to guide her. We travel a lot and her nose is always so close to the ground that she didn't always see things before she got to them anyway.

The one problem that we're having is that her separation anxiety is worse than it ever was. We never leave her alone and had to hire a dog sitter to attend a wedding. I need to find something that will help keep her calm even if it's just for an hour so we could leave the house together!!

Lady's awesome spirit and the knowledge that dogs cope better than us with blindness keeps me sane with this part of the journey. I'm glad Mickey has other canines close to him to keep him grounded during this time.
Sending lots of hugs for you both,
Jo-Ann & Lady :)

[We Hope]

Dori,

Maybe you haven't thought about it, but you and Mickey have had a great victory--you fought diabetes and you both won.

When Lucky was first diagnosed and everything we were doing seemed not to help, I learned what a tough opponent diabetes can be at times. I also knew this was a race against time, because uncontrolled diabetes can kill--pet or person.

So I mentally looked diabetes in the eye and said he wasn't going to take my baby from me. Felt a bit all thumbs because I wasn't a doctor, but wanted to help save Lucky. I started reading everything about diabetes--pets or people--I could find on the internet, and it helped me feel that I was trying to do something to help him.

We found some of Lucky's answers this way--most particularly we learned about Caninsulin/Vetsulin, even though it was not approved in the US at the time. When Lilly stopped making the only insulin he could use, Iletin II Lente, knowing about Caninsulin/Vetsulin saved his life, as we applied for permission to import it for him.

The victory is to live and be happy; Lucky certainly was able to do that and I know that Mickey will be able to do this too. Diabetes didn't take our babies from either of us.

Kathy

[Ricksma]

Dori, I have been keeping up with Mickey, and I am sorry to hear that you are all dealing with his sight issues...I know you have heard all the stories, but maybe you can stand one more. My first diabetic baby, Butch, was a MinPin, and he had my heart. When we were dealing with his disease, we didn't have the support of the internet, and boards like this one. We actually bought a glucometer, but had no idea how to use it....we were flailing around, doing our best to help him without benefit of blood testing OR a knowledgeable vet. All we had was a huge amount of love for him, and prayer. He was 1 year old when he was diagnosed, and we lost him from kidney failure (due to the uncontrolled diabetes) when he had just had his eleventh birthday. He lived with diabetes for almost ten years, and the last four, he was blind. He adjusted so well, that we actually didn't even realize that he was losing his sight until it was gone. He never indicated that he was unsure about moving around, and we weren't even aware that he had cataracts forming until they were mature....and I don't think that we weren't observant where Butchie was concerned. He just accepted his diminishing sight as a fact of life, and went on. Please try not to stress too much, Dori...Mickey won't. We can learn a lot from our friends.

Love and hugs, Teresa and Ricky

[Mickey'sMom]

Just wanted everyone to know I can see Mickeys cataracts now..... :(

[CarolW]

Dori - with Mickey not seeing, I think you could use additional information about dog-dog communications (which would also help you see how your other dogs are helping Mickey!).

Though Mickey can't see the calming signals the other dogs surely are giving off, he might well be USING some! For more information, you can start here:

http://www.coherentdog.org/vek/stressdown.php

For those who can manage it, I usually suggest acquiring all of the works of Turid Rugaas (they are listed on that page) - and studying them - at your leisure. Or asking your library to acquire them so you can borrow them! It's surprising how much it helps to have knowledge of how dogs communicate with each other, because they expect to communicate with humans the same way - but a lot of humans remain unaware of canine calming signals.

Those who do learn about them usually find they can use their knowledge to considerable advantage!

Thu, 9 Oct 2008 06:47:06

[Mickey'sMom]

Ok ...this is a weird thing...This morning Mickeys eyes look clearer and he seems to be seeing better..can that happen? can developing cataracts subside? we were in a bright room and I was giving him his shot..he looked right at me and I could clearly see the pupil of his eyes. and instead of looking past his treat...he looked right at it..is this possible??

[We Hope]

Dori,

This is the first time I've ever posted anything about this because it is very rare that it happens. Not long after Lucky was regulated, he began having terrible anxiety attacks. He was so upset, he was trying to crawl under and hide in places where it was impossible for him to see to get to if he didn't have clear vision.

His eyes became totally clear of the diabetic cataracts and the sudden clearing of his vision frightened him terribly. We had to use Rescue Remedy and Five Flower Drops to calm him for a while. I had him in when the attacks began and both John and his son examined his eyes. The cataracts were gone; at the time none of us had any idea how this could happen because it was considered impossible when it happened to Lucky.

Not until we read this article from Brazil did we actually understand:

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0103-84782005000300036

Transient bilateral diabetic cataracts in a Brazilian Terrier puppy

Cienc. Rural vol.35 no.3 Santa Maria May/June 2005

DISCUSSION

"Transitory diabetic cataracts has been thought to occur in people with subclinical Diabetes mellitus with normal or only mildly increased blood glucose levels (DICKEY & DAILY, 1993) but in this canine patient the glucose levels were significantly increased.

"The initial appearance of the lenses was that described by TEITELBAUM (1998), similar to nuclear sclerosis, even though much denser. This type of cataracts is thought to occur in early ages and to be non reversible by blood glucose levels stabilization. Controversially, after reduction of hyperglycemia in this puppy, the opacification was reduced and the lenses appeared as having a plaque in the posterior subcapsular region. This is the aspect usually described in cases of transitory diabetics cataracts in human beings (DICKEY & DAILY, 1993; GELVIN & THONN, 1993; BUTLER, 1994).

CONCLUSIONS

"Canine lenses may reassume transparency after a rapid glycemic control. The exact involved mechanisms in both human and canine diabetic cataracts are yet to be determined."

The entire article is at the link with photos of the puppy's cataracts and how they dissolved; you might want Mickey's vet to have a look at that article, along with this PubMed abstract:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16119062?dopt=AbstractPlus

Spontaneous resorption of a diabetic cataract in a geriatric dog.
Journal of Small Animal Practice August 2005

Gonzalez-Alonso-Alegre E, Rodriguez-Alvaro A.
Hospital Clinico Veterinario, Departmento Patologia Animal II, Facultad de Veterinaria de Madrid, Avda. Puerta de Hierro s/n, Spain.

"Spontaneous cataract resorption is described in a geriatric cocker spaniel with a four-month history of diabetes mellitus. Resorption progressed to such a degree that vision was restored in that eye and almost all the cataract material disappeared. This is not common in geriatric dogs despite having been described with relative frequency in young animals with hereditary cataracts."

Lucky was at least 14-15 years old when this happened for us. I never posted about it before because most commonly, cataracts will need to be removed surgically. Didn't want people to have the idea that what happened for us might happen for them if they just sat back and waited, as it's a rare development.

You might want to take Mickey in to your vet to let her see what you're seeing with his eyes and share these two links with her.

Kathy

[Mickey'sMom]

Thanks Kathy..Mickey goes back to the vet on the 15th ( this coming Wednesday) his eyes dont look completely clear but clearer then they did the other day !

[Mickey'sMom]

For those who want to know me a little better..............

http://www.myspace.com/dorirob

[Mickey'sMom]

Back from the vet....Mickeys BG 210...yes he is starting to go blind...Have the name of a recomended vet eye surgeon...he only does the eyes after the dog is completely blind...he does both eyes and does not replace the lenses...no replacement lense..no more cataracts..dog can see again..just not completely focused..so he wont be able to read or drive a car..otherwise he will see enough to be happy ...Less chance of any infection either...his success rate is 85% ...cost for both eyes 2,000 plus follow up care.....any opinions in here will be most welcome....we have time, his vision according to the vet is failing slowly.

[We Hope]

Dori,

If you know any older folks who have been through cataracts and surgery, you know their cataracts aren't always removed immediately, but at a certain "point" determined by their eye specialist.

Regarding replacement lenses, some have had no problems with them while others have.

I sure can see the point about less infection risk; our little one before Lucky had to undergo cruciate ligament surgery on one back leg. The tendon was damaged so badly, she had to have an artificial one implanted. She had an infection and needed to go back into the hospital for it initially. After that, we had no further problems with her implant. We called her the "Bionic Dog" after that. :)

Long before diabetes, Lucky needed to have the same type of surgery on both of his back legs, one by one. Neither of his tendons were damaged to the point where artificial replacements were needed--he had no infection issues when either of them were done.

Am sure those who have been through cataract surgery--with or without implants--will be glad to tell you more about their dog's experiences from the surgery.

Kathy

[bgdavis]

Kathy,

I'm one of those 'older folks' that had cataract surgery this year! Had the left eye done in May and the right one, which had less problem, in July.

Of course, Crissy's surgery in Nov. 2004 did end with a complication and the loss of both eyes over the following 2 years.

Bonnie and Crissy

[Mickey'sMom]

Bonnie...thats what I fear..complications that can be worse then the blindness.... and I MUST be imagining things because Mickey "seems" to be seeing better on some days then others....

[Mickey'sMom]

Had to rush one of our other babies to the emergency vet late last night. Mitzi our 2 yr old Shih Ztu ruptured a anal gland..blood and mucus everywhere..I was scared to death,,,she is on anti biotics and pain meds now and has to be seen at our regular vet tomorrow...when it rains...it pours...

[CarolW]

Keep us posted on Mitzi! My Kumbi has a weak anal gland - tends to get infected - we've brought it under control each time before rupture; whew! Kumbi sends special greetings to Mitzi, saying, Yeah, that hurts! Lucky you have such a great DogMum!

Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:02:24

[eyelostit]

Oh so sorry, those anal glands can cause problems.:(

With Niki's blindness I know she can see shadows or see a little up and down but not side to side

[k9diabetes]

Poor Mitzi.. hope she's feeling better better better!

Natalie

[Mickey'sMom]

She is getting better...back to the vet Tues to see if she needs to continue the antibiotics... Now we think Rex our german shepherd has another ear infection..he had a ambolisum (sp) operated on 2 yrs ago, this one ear has always had issues...geez lousie 3 sick pups at once...

[eyelostit]

I hope this week goes better for you :)

[Mickey'sMom]

Saying hello to everyone...Mickey is doing well...Mitzi's anal glans have healed, but the vet thinks we should have them removed to save future worries ( $700.00 ) cost, we are waiting on that a bit because Our mini poodle, Jack now has 2 lumps on his back,( he is 7 yrs old ) the vet believes they are benign fatty tumors, but he is going to see her tomorrow with Mickey to get them checked out to be safe...when it rains...it pours....

[k9diabetes]

Great news about Mickey!

The fatty tumors are pretty common so hope that's all it is. Chris had one moderately sized one on his shoulder up in the scruff. Kind of felt like a marshmallow.

[Mickey'sMom]

Mickeys BG staying between 170-200 hes doing fantastic,,,only gained 1 oz in a month...( all his fur has grown back in thicker then it was) so we think thats the extra oz...lol...no more bald spots on my baby boy..Jacks bumps are beign cysts,,if they get any bigger we can remove them other wise she voted to leave them alone for now. except for Mickeys growing blindness hes as healthy as a pup. so the family is holding its own for now, Vet doesnt want to see Mickey for 2 months unless his BG goes nutty, which it doesnt look like it will....... Hugs to all........

Mickey and his Mom....

[Mickey'sMom]

Asking for prayers and well wishes for our Jack...he was rushed into surgery this morning...the cyst on his neck blew up to the size of an orange! He was in pain...We rushed him into the vet and she is doing surgery on him as I type this...she cant wait to try to get the infection down because puss and fluid was spreading through his entire neck and could cut off his air supply! Our poor baby! She was encouraging because we got him there so quickly ( and avoided a speeding ticket ) I have to call at 4pm est..to see how its going...if all goes well, we can bring him home tonight,.....

[CarolW]

Prayers and well-wishes forthcoming for Jack! You get to phone in just over an hour - please report back! I'm deeply trusting the surgery went well, and that Jack will be fine!

Awaiting your report!

Mon, 24 Nov 2008 11:48:22 (PST)

[BestBuddy]

Sending positive throughts for Jack. I hope it all goes well and you get to have him home again soon.
Jenny & Buddy

[k9diabetes]

Oh Dori.... will be watching for word about Jack! Everything's crossed here for a good outcome.

Natalie

[Cara's Mom]

Lots of positive thoughts, love and well wishes to Jack!!! Pray the vet gets that nasty thing cleaned out!!!

Hugs for you and Jack

[eyelostit]

I hope all is ok, its 5:00 my time here in PA, so maybe you are at the vet now, i hope it goes well, my ole husky had a large cyst like thing under her neck near chest area, they had to drain it, shave her there, but it all worked out well, i don't know where it came from she was quite young at the time, maybe 5 yrs old.

take care, dolly:)

[Mickey'sMom]

Jack is back with a ten inch incision and drain on his neck and another one on his lower back 5 inches ( two cysts) drain comes out in 5 days...stitches in 12 days,,he looks like a pit bull mauled him :(....he is acting ok so far...a bit nervous snd uncomfortable....Thanks for all the well wishes....Ill keep everyone posted....
PS Mickey is doing very well,,,this place is starting to look like an animal hospital.... :-

[Cara's Mom]

So glad it's over and he came through allright!! Hope everthing heals OK.
Hang in there, Jack. Nurse Dori will take good care of you:):)

[BestBuddy]

Glad to hear Jack's home. Do you have to wear your nurse's uniform?:D
Jenny & Buddy

[Mickey'sMom]

Well between Mickeys diabetes, Mitzi's anal gland problems...Rex's ear infection, and now Jacks surgery, we are putting this vets children through college! thats 4 major dog issues in 2 months...well the other three dogs..Molly, Ebony, and Ginger are all healthy ( crosses fingers) and I might as well get my nursing degree...lol..Good thing I dont work outside the home anymore, someone has to be here to run the "ward"

[eyelostit]

Good thing I dont work outside the home anymore, someone has to be here to run the "ward"

Thats a good one LOL :D

[Ricksma]

So happy to hear that Jack is home. I hear nurses make a really good salary...you will have to take your compensation in licks. That should be an even trade...;)

Love and hugs, Teresa and Ricky

[Mickey'sMom]

All those loving licks and big brown eyes, and the way they are so happy never to be alone is worth a fortune no job could ever give me,I was in the work force for over 32 yrs..this beats it all.....( Plus hubby has a good career , good enough to take me out of the race.....

[k9diabetes]

You sure have been through it lately! I'm very excited to hear that Jack is home and seems okay, albeit a bit tubed up! Hope "the ward" behaves itself!

By the way, I meant ages ago to say I took a trip through your MySpace page a while back - it was fun to see your pictures and learn more about you!

Natalie

[Mickey'sMom]

Hi All...I havent been in for a while...Just stopping in to wish everyone a wonderful Christmas and New Year! Mickey is doing wonderfully.. still on 7 units of vetsulin 2x's a day and his Denamarin tablet each morning..Mickey is staying a steady 170 to 200 BG....He is still slowly going blind ,,but it is progressing very slowly and he is adjusting the best he can,,,Surgery will be decided on based on Mickey's quality of life when he is totally blind. As I said I just wanted to let you all know how Mickey is doing.... See you all soon!

Mickey & his Mom :D

[eyelostit]

Glad you stopped by, I'm glad things are going well, Niki has been blind for 3 yrs now, I didn't know she was going blind until she jumped up on the wrong thing, I did not have the surgery, but she has adapted well, she still plays ball can jump up and down in the SUV and still tells me off at times.

Have a happy new year.;)

[k9diabetes]

Nice to hear good news about Mickey! I love that picture of him on the stairs.

Natalie

[Ricksma]

I am so glad to hear that Mickey is still doing well...they can adjust to losing their eyesight so well, that sometimes we don't even know it is happening. Keeping Mickey in our thoughts.

Love and hugs, Teresa and Ricky

[Mickey'sMom]

Happy New Year to everyone & their furry friends

[k9diabetes]

And to you and yours! Natalie, Jack, Gus, and Katie (and Jeff)