Daisy Vee

[Mike Vee]

Hi All,
I just joined after reading posts for several weeks. I will leave out previous medical adventures and skip forward to explain our most recent excitement. Our 4 year old Golden Ret-mix Daisy had a grade two mass cell tumor removed a little over a year ago. Even though the vet got good margins around the tumor, we went the extra mile with radiation therapy and *another* extra mile after that with 10 weeks of Prednisone "just to make sure we got it" in the words of the oncologist. The oncologist forgot to mention the possible side effect of Prednisone was that it might leave the dog with type 1 daibetes. After we figured that out, our vet put our 100 lb Golden retriever on Vetsulin. I am very close with my nephew who has been a type 1 daibetic since early grade school, so we were not discouraged at all by this new challenge. We've got many meters and count carbs, etc. We had a lot of trouble with the Vetsulin, and finally got things under control after switching to Novalin-N bought at Wallmart. I personally felt my vet took too long to give in and support this idea. 5 weeks ago, I figured out my dog Daisy was having big time vision problems, and took her to the vet. The vet said "oh yea, many dogs that turn diabetic will go blind from cataracts within a couple years. He showed me the cataracts in Daisy's eyes. He told me we should just let it mature and if we wanted to, then we could look into removal of the cataract lens in each eye. This opinion differed from many that my wife found on the net suggesting that infections and inflamation can result when you let cataracts "over ripen" in a diabetic dog. Not wanting to take a chance with our baby Daisy, we had her examined at a University Vet School, and they said we should do the surgery now to avoid complications often associated with over-mature cataracts. The lens replacement surgery was done 3 days ago, and we are in the midst adjusting insulin to counter the effects of steriods that we *must* use for at least a few weeks. Some probably forever in low dosages. I can feel the love on this list. Real pet owners "get it" when it comes to returning the unconditional love they get from their dogs. I gave my vet an insulin curve graph of 72 hrs in 2-4 hr intervals and he thought I was a total whack-job. Dogs are family. I laugh when I think how much more my dog's medical care has cost than any car I've ever owned. :) I don't regret that one bit. Cars don't love me! My wife and I love our dogs & cats. Well, lots of love here. Just checking in. Hope I can help in some small way. Mikey

[Mike Vee]

I need to make a correction. That came out wrong. If we were to choose to have lens replacement surgery, it could yeild more complications if we were to wait for the cataract to completely mature before doing so.
Many dogs with cataracts are perfectly fine and have long, healthy, happy lives. "Wally" next door to me would fit into that category. - MV

[k9diabetes]

Hi!

Welcome to you, your wife, and, of course, Daisy!

I'm glad you weren't too ovewhelmed with the diabetes diagnosis. I'd had a diabetic cat before our dog Chris developed diabetes so I wasn't freaked out like I was the first time... had a major needle phobia to confront the first time around.

So how's Daisy doing on NPH?

I'm thrilled to hear you're home testing and please feel free to post your curve here. I'd love to see it. 72 hours... that really is dedication!!

And, of course, pictures please. :)

They have to be online somewhere. If you don't have a place to store them online, you can email them to me and I'll upload them to the site (k9diabetes@gmail.com).

I hear the first few days after cataract surgery are pretty grueling with the drop regimen. We never did the surgery so Chris has had mature cataracts for going on four years. He does have to have daily eyedrops (an NSAID, Voltaren) to keep the inflammation that the cataracts can cause at bay. I figure we didn't save any money by not having the surgery as the drops and ongoing opth. visits cost plenty, but he just wasn't a very good surgery candidate.

Very happy to see you here and to learn that Daisy has such a caring, dedicated, and knowledgeable family. That always does my heart good.

Best wishes,

Natalie and Chris

[BestBuddy]

Hi and welcome Daisy and family,
Yes it is a really good bunch of people here all at different stages with their diabetes journey. My Buddy also has mature cataracts and like Nat's Chris has had them for many years. We also have daily ointment and drops to keep him form getting ulcers and at age 15 I couldn't put him through the surgery. I do wish I had known enough about the cataract surgery years ago but too late now. Wow a 72 hour curve, that is great.
Jenny & Buddy

[Denise]

Welcome to a fellow whacko!!! I love meeting people online that feel as I do. For the longest time I thought I was the only one out there! :D


Health issues just make us more whacko in a lot of people's eyes but I don't care to ever KNOW those people.

My dog was dx'ed at age 5. He is turning 12 in 2 days. Diabetes didn't bother me much so I adopted another diabetic dog, it's no more work than one, maybe more money but that's OK. My car is paid off and I might just have to drive it till it dies. Since the house will be paid for next year maybe that means I can get more! LOL

I have 12 cats and 7 dogs and love other animal people! Welcome! I wish you the best with Daisy, sounds like you are doing all you can and then some!

[bgdavis]

Hi Mike and Daisy,

Welcome to our world of $10,000 dogs! My girl, Crissy Ann, is 12 1/2 and has been diabetic for over 4 years. She also has hypothyroidism and Cushings' disease. She went blind from cataracts, had the surgery, developed glaucoma, and eventually lost both of her eyes. But, we just keep doing what it takes to keep on.

Everybody on this site understands what you mean about love and dogs.

Bonnie and Crissy

[Mike Vee]

Thanks everone. Crazy people love company. My Daisy has hypothyroidisn too! I went to work on transferring my excel sheet data that I give the vet to a HTML page. That was a little more work than I thought.
I'm no web designer, so I put *everything* vertically on a somewhat tall page.
http://www.enzoco.com/mike/dog/

It seems everyone here has a handle on this stuff, so I have to ask: Does exercise really knock you pet's glucose numbe down?
I was so excited when I figured that out for our dog. I wish my vet would have mentioned that little detail months ago. Maybe it's not as big of a factor with other dogs, so he didn't know. My Type-1 nephew told me to try it. There are many factors involved, I'm sure, but I can knock a 270 reading down to 180 in 20 minutes with a hard walk. Well, that was before the PredForte steroid that we have her on post surgery. Now it's not making a lot of difference. Maybe 30 points tops. Still upping her insulin slowly though so that could change.
Mike

[Mike Vee]

Oh! on the Vetsulin vs NPH;
my particular 95 lb dog could not get stable with Vetsulin for more than a week. There was no "trend" other than unexpected spikes into the 400's twice a week or so. After we 'thought' we had things under control, I reduced testing intervals to once-a-day. Well, months later when the vet did a fructosomine test to get a longer term picture, he was very concerned about the high values. That was when I had noticed her sudden vision problems too. I did a glucose curve and confirmed we were averaging in the low 400's. I had to try something new. I insisted we switch at that point.
The NPH seems to give her more consistent readings. We still get swings, but we're only a month into it, and fight steriod effects now. One bonus of the switch was that it's 1/3 cheaper insulin, and the consumption was cut in half (approx) on top that. The switch to u100 NPH is good for us so far. I can see where u40 Vetsulin would be great for a lighter dog when it comes to tweaking dosages. Every animal is unique in terms of activity level, carb intake, metabolism, etc.
Mike

[Mike Vee]

Hi Bonnie, Crissy looks like a happy camper. I see a lot of Cushings when reading about diabetes. I need to read more about it. Maybe there are breeds that are predisposed <?> You know what I hate that. I get so tired of people telling me that Goldens are sweet but they always die of cancer. (Thanks for that!) Our Golden / Yellow Lab *mix* is the sickie, while our purebred golden rescue dog can probably eat cans and poop nails. She is tuff <nock on wood>. Mike

[Mike Vee]

Agreed, regarding not wanting to meet the people that don't get it. My mother-in-law voluteers 3 days a week at big rescue shelter near us, and she sees the people first hand, who would think us whackos. They are dumping their pets at the first episode that presents them with an incovenience. I love the "Dogs Don't Dump People" bumper stickers. Okay! I have to step away and stop posting for a little while! Cheers, Mike

[k9diabetes]

Hi Mike,

Yeah, Chris' blood sugar can plunge from exercise and even from high anxiety like a long vet visit. He could easily drop 50-100 points back when he could move fast enough to burn some energy.

Thought I'd put a copy of Daisy and the gang here directly...

http://k9diabetes.com/userimages/daisyetal.jpg

Buford looks a lot like our Gus.

I was laughing about Daisy being "lazy." One of our members here, Paul, has a doberman named Zip... he doesn't like to move either!

Your curve looks GREAT!

Really nice control with the NPH.

I have sometimes given Chris' BG a boost before a walk with some syrup so he gets some glucose into his system immediately while he's walking and I know it won't last a long time so won't drive the blood sugar up hours later like food would.

I wonder if the Vetsulin was actually causing some rebound and that was the reason for the large spikes.

NPH is definitely the cheaper alternative and a lot easier with a big dog - with Vetsulin you have to give such a large volume if the dose is very high.

Not sure if you're getting it at Wal-mart. I don't typically shop at Wal-mart but with the expense of all of Chris' meds I have switched several of his most expensive medications there and the insulin is half the cost of the regular pharmacies because Novo has an arrangement with Wal-mart so all of Chris' insulin comes from there.

Mike, you really are a testament to what an actively involved owner can mean for a diabetic dog. Daisy's lucky to have you.

Natalie

[Mike Vee]

Thanks Natalie,
I never thought of the suguar spike before the walk. That sounds like a useful tool if she's already low and it's walk time. Maybe I'll try that when we get control again and the situation is right.
MIke

[Debbie & Apollo]

Hi Daisy Vee! and welcome!

Here's lookin at ya! love your picture!

nothing really too add - I'll keep an eye on your post in case I can add anything. You are in a good place here -- great information, love and licks!

Debbie and Apollo

[rhodesian46]

Hi Mike,
Just a suggestion.You might want to try to keep the fasting curve then maybe test an hour later to see how the food effects Daiseys bgs then every 2 hours thereafter. So you would have a total of 7 times. And keep the times consistent This way you can have the exact times to compare to..You are doing a great job with her I have a siberian husky named Pebbles with cushings,diabetes,and hypothyroid Reading what you posted you are a great furdad and really love your animals. I too have alot 6 dogs,2 cats and a cockatiel Welcome to this board!!

[Mike Vee]

Hi Marianne,
I'm not that clear on how to do a fasting curve and use the data, but I will likely do it, with help, after we get through this steroid tug-o-war in a few weeks. Two weeks before her eye surgery, they gave me PredForte eye drops to apply once-per-day. At that point, I noted a need for more insulin. with just one drop in each eye per day, it went from 23 to 25 units at each meal. Now, after the surgery, she is receiving 4 times that amount of the PredForte eye drops along with several other new (to her) medicines. Glucose was at 450 when I got her home from the clinic (3 hr drive) Friday night. It was in the low-mid 400s all day the next day while I incrementally went up on the Novalin volume. She was requiring 23-24 units before any of the medicines were introduced, which kept her in the zone of 80-200 bg pretty well. Now, she is receiving 37 units of Novalin at meal time, and her glucose is in the upper 200's. Pushing any more Novalin scares me at the moment. I believe this insulin load would kill her, if not for her meds counteracting much of it, so I'm not going to push things any more. Her readings for today were sorta high, but very steady, between 260 and 280 all day and into the evening (16 hrs). She's never had a curve that flat. I'm going to keep her at the 37 units and monitor her very closely for now. As soon as her bg levels went below 300, she was her playful self again :) All of this makes me wonder about the dogs whose owners don't test bg, and stick to the original insulin levels, regardless of the Prednisone (or any steroid) hit. - Mike

[k9diabetes]

I think Marianne meant a fasting blood glucose check and then a check 1 hour after food and then every 2 hours after that. It gives you an opportunity to look at that first hour after you give the insulin and see how that compares to the second hour after, with checks done over several days at the same times to allow you to see how consistent she is too.

NPH usually doesn't cause a sharp drop so I'm not too concerned. Vetsulin has been known to cause a sharp drop in the first two hours so with that insulin I like to see some monitoring of that time frame.

Most common lowest blood sugar with NPH is around 6 hours.

We did actually use NPH at one time. It worked great for Chris' blood sugar as long as we gave it three times a day - didn't ever last a full 12 hours. But then he was allergic to the protamine so we went back to Regular insulin.

Without home testing, you really can't safely maintain such tight blood glucose control, which is why so many vets try to keep a dog's blood sugar between 200 and 300. With the variation that just happens and no home testing, they need that cushion.

A "fasting curve" can be a very interesting exercise because it allows you to see how the insulin behaves without the interaction of food. I know some dogs put on Lantus have had a fasting curve done first - insulin and no food - so it was possible to see whether the Lantus gave a smooth basal insulin supply.

With the steroid drops, it seems okay to me to let her run a little higher. After all, the cataracts are gone so you don't have to worry about those anymore! Once things settle down, you can get back to tighter regulation. It's great that you've been able to compensate for the effect of the drops.

I think I'm rambling.... !

Natalie

[ladysmom06]

Hi Mike,

Welcome to you and Daisy. You have come to a great place for info and lots of support. As you can already see - the people here are so compassionate and caring. My Lady has diabetes and cushing's. She was dx with diabetes in Sept. 06 and everytime I think I'm starting to understand this disease Lady will do somthing that has my head spinning again - knowing I have a place to go where people get it makes things easier to deal with. Good luck to you and Daisy and please keep us posted. Hugs to the two of you.

Luv,
Lynne and Lady

[Brandy mom]

Hi Mike

I have been reading your post. Daisy is very luckie to have you. Brandy was also on the Predisone eye drops after surgery. She was on them for a long time. I found that if I gave the Predisone eye drops at the lowest peak I could keep the number flatter. It took a lot of BG checks but if I gave the eye drops 30-45 minutes before the lowest point Brandy wouldn't get that high of a spike.

Dawn and the girls

[Mike Vee]

Hi Dawn,
I'm eager to learn more about Brandy's experiences with the Prednisone. The vet I spoke to at Ohio State Veterinary Hospital says "it can elevate bg a little". I'm giving Daisy what I would have previously considered to be fatal amounts of insulin, just to get her to the mid-high 200s for glucose values.
I was actually doubting the Reli-On meter, so I confirmed the number with a OneTouchUltra. They are within four points of each other. Mike

[Brandy mom]

Hi Mike

Each dog is different they will use insulin and other medication different. Both vet couldn't believe how the predsione eye drops effected Brandy. She would spike from 180's then 1/2 hour could be in the upper 300's. Just after surgery Brandy was on the drops 6x a day. I did the same thing you are doing using more insulin. The opth vet didn't think the problem was from the drops. Just a reaction to the surgery. It wasn't until Brandy starting getting the drop 2x a day that we had problems. At first we didn't know the drop were causing the problem.
I hesitated to say anything because each dog is so different. But I don't want you to end up in the same cycle. Because of the spikes the vet told me to increase the insulin. Then when the drops would wear off she had to much insulin this would cause a low. So several times I ended up treating a hypo. At first everyone thought she was having rebounds. This went on for many months. Because the drops were causing such a spike then a drop it looked like rebounds. Poor Brandy had the insulin amount lower so many times, just to get the BG in flat range. She would be in the upper 300's to low 400's before we could start to increase the insulin.
I had enough and told the vet something else must be going on. She needs more test. So his plan was to give Brandy X amount of insulin for 5 days without doing any adjustments (unless she had lows). Then he had me do a 24 hour curve for one day. Then I had to do 12 hour curves for 2 more days. Writing down ever thing Brandy did. I mean even when she went potty how long she walked and treats. After this was all done we sat down and looked at the information. He thought the drops could be the problem. So next plan was to take Brandy off the drops (with the opth vet approval for 3days), The first 2 day I did nothing just gave X amount of insulin. On the third day I did a 12 hour curve. So now we knew how Brandy would use the insulin without the drops. So we looked for the lowest point. He had me give the drops 15 minutes before the lowest point. Then I tested he BG in 1/2 hour(from the other curve this is how long Brandy would take to rise from the drops). She still had to big of a spike so the vet had me try 20 minutes ect.. We found that 30-45 minutes before the lowest point worked the best. So she was still spiking from the drops,but not as much.

Bet this was more information then you wanted to know. I should give you a little information on Brandy. She is a doberman and is at a slim 77 pound now. She has been diabetic for a little over 2 years. We found diabetes 1 day after her sixth birthday. She is also on thyroid medication and has arthritis.

Dawn and the girls

[rhodesian46]

Thanks for clarifying what I meant I forgot to put fasting A blonde moment!:D

[Mike Vee]

Bet this was more information then you wanted to know. I should give you a little information on Brandy. She is a doberman and is at a slim 77 pound now. She has been diabetic for a little over 2 years. We found diabetes 1 day after her sixth birthday. She is also on thyroid medication and has arthritis.

Dawn and the girls

Thank you Dawn,
That is exactly the type of experience I'm looking for. It verifies what I'm seeing with my Daisy. I'm giving the PredForte 4 times a day, along with other drops. The PredFort was the last one administered each time I gave drops to her. The surgery vets told me to allow at least 5 minutes between applications of the three differnet drops I'm giving at 4 intervals during the day. One BIG factor that I'm just noticing, is that when the PredForte are the *last* ones given, the BG numbers soar. However, when I wait the required 5 minutes between the different merdicines, but simply change the order so that something other than the PredForte is the last thing I put in her eyes, the BG numbers appear to be much lower. I spoke to my vet and we attribute this to dogs' eyes having sort of a drip-shelf (I forget the name of it) that keeps the last drops you gave them hanging around for a while, to be slowly absorbed. The last drops you administer occupy that space! My dog weighs 95lbs. I hate to think how these drops could hit a smaller animal. Anyway, this is all tennative. I have a really good relationship with my local vet, and he believes there *is* something to my suspecting the PredForte. He says to proceed with the usual caution and stay on the high side with the blood glucose readings. Like you, he insists that all dogs are different, and steriods can have little or no impact on one and big impacts on another. Like Brandy, Daisy is hypothyroid. There are dots to connect here, but I don't have the grey matter or education to complete the whole picture. :) Thanks again for explaining Brandy's drug adventures. - Mike

[Brandy mom]

Mike

That is just one of Brandy's many adventures. Just a quick question. When is the last time Daisy had a T4 test? The only reason I ask is to me seems like diabetes and hypothyroid can go hand and hand. Was she DX with hypothyroid before diabetes? I have seen some dogs that were hypothyroid and then started insulin and the thyroid medication amount changes.

Dawn and the girls

[Mike Vee]

Mike

That is just one of Brandy's many adventures. Just a quick question. When is the last time Daisy had a T4 test? The only reason I ask is to me seems like diabetes and hypothyroid can go hand and hand. Was she DX with hypothyroid before diabetes? I have seen some dogs that were hypothyroid and then started insulin and the thyroid medication amount changes.

Dawn and the girls

Daisy had one two months ago. I didn't understand what the vet was saying, but he sounded pretty much like what you wrote :) Our vet is big on blood analysis. He also did a fructosamine test then. Daisy's T4 test was where he wanted it, but the fructosamine revealed that I needed to test her glucose more. Her bg had been averaging pretty high when I thought things were under control and wasn't testing often. Mike

[Brandy mom]

Hi Mike

I sure I am not going to explain this correct. But here goes.. Have you had your meter check against the vet labs? Humans and dogs have different blood (something I think cell size). So a human meter will work for a dog it just not a perfect number. So you need to have the vet check the dogs blood in the lab(not a meter). You use the same sample and check your meter. It will give you the differences then you just add or subtract that amount.

I sure someone else can explain this better HELP.

Dawn and the girls

[Mike Vee]

Good point Dawn,
My vet told me they would be read very close, but human meters would exagerate at both of the extreme ends of the scale. However, I will insist the we do a side-by-side test the next time Daisy visits him. He has admitted to me that pro-active owners sharpen his skills in managing just about any disease. He and I get along really well. Regarding the blood tests, I'm fortunate that in Daisy's twisted world view, a blood glucose test is a "big treat". When I click the One-Touch lance, she gets all excited, comes running and lays on her side in front of me, so I can roll up her lip. Maybe it's because we've always praised and pet her before and after the sampling, and occasionally offered a small morsel to eat. It's a bizzare behavior to watch for sure. :rolleyes:

[We Hope]

Hi Mike

I sure I am not going to explain this correct. But here goes.. Have you had your meter check against the vet labs? Humans and dogs have different blood (something I think cell size). So a human meter will work for a dog it just not a perfect number. So you need to have the vet check the dogs blood in the lab(not a meter). You use the same sample and check your meter. It will give you the differences then you just add or subtract that amount.

I sure someone else can explain this better HELP.

Dawn and the girls

There's been a lot of talk about this, so I've just bumped up the thread we have about human and animal-validated meters.

http://k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77

As you'll see there, the majority of Feline Diabetes Board members are using human meters and aren't having issues with their accuracy because they aren't animal-validated. Having visited the board frequently, I don't see more people making "help! hypo!" than would be considered normal with any pet diabetes board.

Human glucometers aren't providing perfect numbers for people who use them either.

Depending on the way the given meter measures glucose--photometric or electrochemical--and the enzyme that given system uses to do that--hexokinase, glucose oxidase, or glucose dehydrogenase--all of them are able to vary.

http://clinical.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/reprint/25/2/43

Clinical Diabetes 2007| Evaluation of Inaccuracies in the Measurement of Glycemia...

In this article, the ADA recommendations are cited--glucose meter values should vary by < 15% from laboratory findings. A goal for readings > 75 is that they should be within 20% of what the lab says. For reading <75, 95% of those should be within 15 points of a lab test.

FDA wants all human meters (They must gain approval to be marketed, while animal-based ones are not subject to FDA approval before they are allowed to be sold.) to be within a 20% framework when the bg's are >100 and within 20 points when it is < 100.

The article goes on to cite that the newer meters were tested in 2005 and they were found to be able to give you values within 5% of a lab test.

There are also articles about the performance of various meters (depending on the type of enzyme used to measure glucose) under conditions such as high altitudes and low temperatures.

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/28/5/1261?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=precision+xtra&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

One of the problems with meters is that we have many groups with their own standards on what's acceptable and what isn't.

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/30/2/403

"Much of the difficulty with assessing the performance of POC glucose measuring devices lies in the lack of consensus among professional and regulatory groups regarding allowable error. As a result, published studies are often difficult to directly compare. Of these, the ADA guidelines established in 1996 are the most stringent, calling for total error (bias plus imprecision) of <10% for current devices and <5% for future devices. Error grids have been used in an attempt to predict clinically important errors; however, they are comparatively inaccurate."

And then we get into where the blood comes from--capillary or vein, plasma or whole blood re: accuracy:

"Differences between sources of blood may be amplified in the postprandial state (72,75–77). During periods of fasting, capillary glucose may be only slightly (2–5 mg/dl) higher than venous plasma glucose. After a glucose load, however, capillary glucose values may be 20–25% higher than venous plasma values."

"Glucose from plasma generally exceeds that of whole blood. In 2001, the International Federation of Clinical Chemistry recommended that glucose meters be calibrated to plasma glucose, using a constant factor of 1.11. In fact, most, but not all, meters today are calibrated to report plasma glucose values."

FDA's rules and regs re: human glucometers are over 20 years old--this is what determines if the product gets approved to go on the market. They've been trying to change their regs for more than 10:

http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/ode/gluc.html

http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/oivd/laboratory.html#tip6

"Have you ever wondered why you got a bad glucose meter test result when there is nothing obvious wrong with your meter, your test strips are new, and you’ve been running glucose tests for years? The simple answer is that glucose meters are not perfect, and neither are the people who use them!

"Check the results from your meter against laboratory results as often as possible.

"Over time, test systems can drift apart. Since results from either test system maybe used to treat your patients, it is important for the systems to remain synchronized."

So here you see them telling people to check their meters against lab values frequently.

Even people are being told to compare their meters with their lab tests, as you see FDA advise above, so any addition or subtraction of points would need to be done on that individual basis--you, knowing how your meter stacks up to lab testing.

[Mike Vee]

<big snip> Even people are being told to compare their meters with their lab tests, as you see FDA advise above, so any addition or subtraction of points would need to be done on that individual basis--you, knowing how your meter stacks up to lab testing.

Good stuff! I'm going to compare my daily use Relyon unit to the vet's meter when I get a chance. When I have reason to doubt the reading, I also have a one-touch-ultra-mini and a one-touch-utra full size that I've used. The one-toch brand strips are twice the cost of the Relyon. I haven't seen more than a 4 or 5 point difference, but I'm curious about the canine specific meters and how they wll compare.
mv

[Mike Vee]

This might be posted in the wrong place, but while on the subject of meters, I mentioned how close my OneTouch and Relyon meters have been for me. Your results may vary. The strips for the OneTouchUltra cost me approx $1 each. I just returned from buying strips & insulin at Walmart, and 100 Relyon glucose test strips came to $42.48. That's less than 43 cents per test. My sister (mom to a 14 year old with type 1) told me about the relyon meter when I was complaining about how many strips I consume. She does alot of voluteer work with JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation) and is generally pretty informed on the *human* type one issues. I'm eager to test the Relyon against the vet's clinic meter in a few weeks after reading the very informative WE Hope post. Mike

[k9diabetes]

I haven't tried the Relion meter but I buy the strips for the OneTouch Ultra at www.hocks.com (http://www.hocks.com). Costs about 2/3 of the local pharmacy price. You can likely find them cheaper elsewhere too but I buy a handful of diabetes supplies through Hocks - test strips, syringes, and lancets - so it's easiest just to call up my order history there and refill what I need.

The OneTouch Ultra I use is a pretty consistent average of 30-40 points low against a lab value and against the AlphaTrak throughout a wide range of BGs for Chris.

But you're so right - depends on the meter, depends on the dog. There's no way to know how your meter on your dog will compare to a lab value in advance or by how it does for another dog.

Freestyle, as a general rule, has a pretty good history with small dogs and with cats but not as good with larger dogs from what I've seen generally. It wasn't nearly as close for us as the OneTouch.

[bgdavis]

Mike,

Just popping in for a sec since I'm reovering today from my cataract surgery! I have a Freestyle meter and have bought my strips off of Ebay for years. You must be careful to read the expiration dates and look for sales of just the quanity you can use, but I sometimes get a 100 strips plus lancets for less than the stores charge for 50.

Bonnie and Crissy

[We Hope]

ReliOn's Ultima is made by Abbott. If you look at the demo here where the meter's shown, you can see it looks a lot like Abbott's Precision Xtra minus any blood ketone testing capabilities.

http://www.relion.com/ultima_demo/index.html

http://www.abbottdiabetescare.com/content/en_US/20.10.30:30/product/Product_Profile_0004.htm

What else is interesting is that both the AlphaTrak and Abbott's FreeStyle Freedom, introduced in 2006 but now supplanted by FreeStyle Freedom Lite, both use/used the same amount of blood for a sample--0.3 microlitres.

http://www.abbottanimalhealth.com/ad_ah_com/url/content/en_US/20.30.30:20/general_content/General_Content_0000009.htm

Abbott, BTW, is talking up the difference in the way glucose is distibuted in blood by the various species:

------ % glucose concentration in Red Blood Cells----% in plasma
Human 42% 58%
Dogs 12.5% 87.5%
Cats 7% 93%

So we have a person whose glucose concentrations are just slightly unevenly divided between RBC's and plasma, and then we have dogs and cats for whom the majority of their glucose concentration is in plasma.

Since humans split their concentrations, it only makes sense that a meter system would need to have means to provide accurate readings on this basis.

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Glucometer#Whole_Blood_vs_Plasma_Readings

"Glucose levels in plasma (a component of blood) are generally 10-15% higher (even more after eating) than glucose measurement in whole blood. All of our home devices actually measure the glucose content of whole blood. Most lab testing measures the glucose content of the plasma.

"Many currently marketed meters automatically display their readings (through a math algorithm built into the device) as plasma equivalent. Thus allowing one to better compare their meter results to those of lab testing. It's important that you know whether the meter you're using displays readings as whole blood equivalent or plasma equivalent."

http://www.fda.gov/diabetes/glucose.html

Whole Blood vs Plasma Measurements

So basically, this is what most of the human meters are providing you now--your reading displayed as plasma equivalent.

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Glucometer#Meters_for_animals

"In March, 2006, Abbott began marketing its AlphaTrak animal-validated glucometer. The validation process being accomplished through obtaining blood glucose test results over a period of time from dogs and cats and validating through averages of them as compared to Antech Laboratories' results. Over 200 dogs and 200 cats were tested to validate the AlphaTrak meter--in each group, only slightly more than 50 were diabetes patients.

"In the AlphaTrak system, it's the meter which is validated, not the test strips."

With the AlphaTrak, it's the knowledge that only slightly more than 12.5% of those whose values were recorded for validation purposes were diabetes patients, that I don't like.

My thought would be that one would be far less likely to see accuracy on the higher ends of the scale because of it, whereby when all of the human meters are tested before gaining FDA approval, they are field-tested in places like hospitals, diabetes clinics and the like.

I believe I'd have more confidence in animal-based meters as a whole if we didn't need to "get there" via validation. ;)

[eyelostit]

I'd love to have one of those "Dogs don't dump people stickers"

Welcome Mike and Daisy, my Niki has been blind for oh 3 yrs now I think, she adjusted well and you would never know she is blind, she jumps up in the car or SUV, jumps down, plays ball and soccer now, very active.

Hope Daisy is doing really well !!:)