Dog Fight

[pgcor]

We had the shock of our dog-owing lives over the weekend. Our other dog Newman got into a fight with Pip. Fighting over gloves that neither should have taken. My husband broke it up. Afterwards, the only thing I noticed was that Newman's nose was bleeding. I took the necessary steps to make sure he was okay.

Yesterday, while giving Pip his insulin, I noticed a lump on his neck. It was hard to see and my husband took a look while I held Pip in a head lock.

OMG - Newman had bitten him in the neck and there was huge hole! We took him into the emergency Vet and I was afraid they would need to suture. The Vet said that they couldn't because it had not just happened.

We brought him home on antibiotics and have to place hot towels on his neck 4X's per day.

I can't tell you how horrible I feel. I knew the dogs didn't get along, but Newman never bit Pip back. Newman is quite a bit bigger and weighs nearly double that of Pip. Now I'm a wreck and do not want to leave them alone together.

So far, we have been keeping them apart when we leave the house because Newman cannot lick Pip's neck - which he tries to do.

I have always loved dogs, but these two dogs are more than I can handle. I'm completely inept.....

[bgdavis]

Almost all dogs will fight at some point. I took my two Eskies to visit my sister in Florida. We have done this several times in the past. She has two big 'hounds', both female. They got along great for the first three days and then the two girls decided to 'jump on' one of my boys.

The most aggressive of her dogs thought she was getting the best of Sugar and kept biting at his neck. Little did she realize that all she got was a mouth full of hair! He bit back at her tangling ears and drew blood.

The next day, it happened again. So my sister's dog ended up with matching holes through both ears. I told my BIL to buy her diamond studs.

The dogs never fought when alone. Only when one was getting attention from somebody. It's like a jealousy thing between Sugar and BP. Then the other two feel obligated to run to the aid of their 'brother' or 'sister'.

Bonnie and Angel Criss

[CarolW]

Indeed, you're wise to keep the dogs separated. Many dog-fights are mere scuffles, and neither dog gets anything more than a nick or two. But a hole, meaning Newman sank his teeth (or tooth) is rather serious, indicating a problem that needs to be prevented.

Probably, you'll need to keep them separated always, I'm sorry to say.

I kind of wonder if Newman is jealous of the extensive attention Pip gets because of the diabetes.

One thing you can do is to look around the Internet for assistance in managing the two dogs. For instance, I'd suggest this Yahoo group:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Pos-4-ReactiveDogs/

It's among the best of the groups dealing with dogs who "over-react."

Uses only positive methods of working with dogs.

You can go there and click on "Join This Group."

You might have to make a Yahoo ID, to use the web features.

Mon, 14 Feb 2011 09:42:38 (PST)

[CarolW]

Gosh; I'm always forgetting stuff and having to add it!

You're NOT completely inept. This sort of thing happens in many dog-families, and the emergence of such situations can take anybody by surprise. Probably people on the group I referred you to can suggest some ideas for easing the relationship between Newman and Pip, though none is likely to remove all antagonism, which is why it's a good idea to keep the dogs separated.

It's good that now you're aware of the possibilities.

Mon, 14 Feb 2011 09:46:39 (PST)

[pgcor]

Thanks Bonnie and Carol -

I have to say - I am NOT good at dog training - I think that's obvious from not being able to test Pip to now this problem. The problem has always been jealousy between the dogs - from the moment I adopted Newman almost 5 years ago.

Pip is a very dominant dog and, I hate to admit this, but has bitten me several times - one that required a trip to the Doctor. That happened trying to break the two dogs up.

Pip has been the aggressor and Newman has virtually ignored him. I have no idea what happened on Friday that was different from any other day. Maybe Newman just go tired of being "pushed around" so to speak? Who knows.

I just have to say that I am not enjoying dog ownership at this time - and I have never in my life thought that would ever happen.

I will figure out a way to coexist - but I'm extremely fed up with the changes I've had to make to accommodate these dogs - and for the amount of time I've invested in dog training.

The last dog trainer I went to said "there's bite in that one" - referring to Pip. He didn't feel Newman was an aggressive dog. But Newman has always groweled at both my husband and myself when we tell him to get off the couch or the bed, or really anything he doesn't want to do.

When we're home the dogs are together - I don't know if that's a mistake or not. But, I just don't see how we can live with them separated all the time.

I heard the groweling on Friday, but was getting ready for work so I couldn't run right out there. I just cannot believe I didn't see that bite until Sunday!!! Pip never even showed an irritation there. We did see Newman licking Pip's neck, but Newman always licks Pip's face and eyes so we didn't see that as unusual.

Sorry for this post being so long, but I guess I'm trying to come to terms with the fact, that I can't rescue every dog, just because I love dogs. I do love them, but have never had two aggressive dogs before and let me say this is HELL.

Thanks for listening!

[CarolW]

Pam - first, let me say you are NOT alone. Sometimes dogs take these dislikes to each other, and though 95% of the time they are okay together, that other 5% is serious trouble, with great heart-ache for the humans, not to mention the dogs.

If it were me, I would begin making a serious effort to look for another home for Newman. Lucky he was your second dog, as the first should, preferably, keep his original home.

In the last two decades and a bit more, great advances have been made - among a fairly small percentage of dog-trainers and behaviorists - learning more about dogs, their body language, its meaning, and how we can talk to dogs in their own (body) language.

That's how it came about that I could take Camellia, with confidence that I could bring her along so she didn't startle so easily all the time. Indeed, it took me six months (I've had her almost that long) to reduce her startling nearly to nothing. And I remain with her inability to get anywhere near another dog without going off into a bark-bark-bark session, which, of course, tends to drive other dogs away. That's the PURPOSE of her bark-bark-barking - it's her effort to drive ANY other dog away. Simply, she is afraid of other dogs.

I'd guess that's why Pip goes after Newman - with Newman close to twice his size, he's probably afraid of Newman, at least part of the time. Add the element of uncertainty - probably with some jealousy built-in (with Newman's jealousy added to that), and you reach the situation the two dogs are now in.

Almost universally, the solution to this kind of situation is to find another home for one of the dogs.

Here are some other links you might find helpful.

http://www.coherentdog.org/vek/stressdown.php

Pam - in your place, I'd get the book and the DVD (or video) on calming signals. You can actually USE these with your dogs.

Then also, remembering you need to take things with various grains of salt. there are other useful materials. Primarily, I'd suggest the book by Alexandra Semyonova, listed on this page:

http://www.coherentdog.org/links.php

Also, I'd visit the link on that page on "dominance in dogs":

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/

from which you can also read this page:

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php

It will take you some time to acquire and read this stuff, but I believe you'll find it highly worth the effort.

Please keep in mind that around 60 to 80% of dog-trainers, also behaviorists, remain stuck in the dark-ages of viewing dogs as "wanting to be the boss," largely because it's hard for people to change their deeply embedded views. But those who have learned the more up-to-date stuff have been having great successes.

The woman who sold me Camellia can hardly believe the advances we've made in six months. I knew it was possible; it just requires some pretty accurate knowledge, and my willingness not to rush things. I don't absolutely assume Camellia will overcome her dislike for other dogs, but I WILL bet that she'll meet a few she'll enjoy (I'll have to be selective), and from there, over the years, she may greatly reduce her bark-bark-bark responses to ALL other dogs. I won't be asking her to LIVE with another dog, though.

You should be able to get the materials by Turid Rugaas from amazon.com, and the ones by Semyonova, from

www.nonlineardogs.com

Bet you'd find the materials very helpful - and your mind greatly eased.

It might take you months to place Newman, but would be highly worth doing, for his sake, as well as for yours and Pip's. If you make a private placement (as I've done in the past), you can probably stay in touch with Newman via the new owner. If you can't make a private placement, perhaps a rescue organization would help.

So, please try not to be too discouraged. I know the pain of it, myself, as I've made plenty of errors in the past, and had to place a dog in just this sort of way.

Mon, 14 Feb 2011 12:48:53 (PST)

[pgcor]

Thank you for all the information Carol! I will review all of it. I joined the reactive dogs group too.

To be honest, I'm very upset right now and can't imagine having to give Newman away. My husband just adores that dog....

I really couldn't be more sad.:(

[HarrysMom]

Have you tried a dog behaviorist?

Yunhee

[CarolW]

Dog behaviorists vary greatly; it would be good if you could find a good one locally, and, Pam, from the Pos-4-ReactiveDogs list, you may be able to locate one who is really good. That would be worth doing.

I co-own that group, but haven't posted in the last couple of years; the other owners and moderators are excellent. Anyway, Pam, I saw you had joined the group.

Let me encourage you to post as soon as you can. Describe the problem. We will take it from there, and I'll try to join in to help support you, Pip and Newman (and your husband).

If you CAN keep the dogs apart WHILE YOU ARE BOTH OUT, that will help immensely. When one or both of you are home, we can help you learn how to handle things so the dogs don't get into another fight. You can probably allow them to be together when you are able to supervise - paying attention!

Let's take re-homing as an absolute very last resort, then.

There are lots of things you can do to ease tensions between the two dogs.

Was that the first time Pip got really bitten? I hope so! Was there only the one bite? I hope so! Any idea how deep it was?

No lacerations in addition to the bite? If so, maybe things can be worked out. If things get too tough, maybe you can find a really good friend who is skilled with dogs to take Newman just for a week or so, to give both Newman and Pip time to recover; that's one technique that can be useful.

Anyway, there are some more ideas.

You'll need to give some idea, on the list, of your location, so we could seek out somebody good to assist you.

Same as here, don't be afraid to write long posts. The more information, the better.

BIG hugs to you, to Newman, and to Pip.

Mon, 14 Feb 2011 14:30:14 (PST)

[pgcor]

Thank you so much Carol. Pip is separated from Newman when we're not around as we can't have Newman lick the wound. This is the first time Newman has bitten anyone. He's a complicated dog. Never bitten, but growls at us. Pip is very dominant and has bitten me. I'm not making excuses for him, but generally it's because of a dog fight and I've tried to intervene.

Pip bit Newman in the nose and Newman bit Pip in the neck, over a glove that Newman had - that's all I know.

I will post the details to the other site, and again thank you so much Carol.

Pam

[pgcor]

Yunhee- I live in Chicago and when I look up canine behaviorist, I just get dog trainers. In Chicago, I can't really trust what that means, as I have had my differences with them. Not to say I'm a great dog trainer, as that's obviously not true - but some of the advice I've been given just rubs me the wrong way. If you know what I mean? Hopefully I'll find someone on Carol's suggested site. This has really taken the wind out of my sails. But maybe it was a necessary thing and will stop me from anthropomorphising (sp?) them. Thank you so much for the suggestion, perhaps that will help.

[k9diabetes]

Hi Pam,

I'm really sorry to hear about the fight between Pip and Newman.

The fact that Newman's been growling leads me to believe that there has been a longstanding problem. Newman's been working his way up the aggression ladder and just never got pushed over his bite threshold before.

An excellent book that describes this process and also reinforces repeatedly that dogs who do cross the bite threshold aren't "bad" dogs is "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson.

She views the various triggers that lead to aggression as cumulative. So if there's only one trigger, a dog may not even growl. Two triggers and he growls. Three triggers might be enough to push him over the bite threshold.

So, for example, take a dog like our Jack. Jack is afraid of men and he's afraid of small items being tossed around in the hand and is especially afraid of those things combined with an agitated or aggressive mood.

Just as a simple example, let's say his bite threshold is at 9. His fear of men is a 2, his fear of items being tossed around in the hand is a 5, and his fear of an agitated or aggressive mood is a 4.

If he encounters only one of those things at a time, he's not likely to bite. But if he encounters a man in an agitated mood who is tossing something up and down in his hand - this has happened to Jack - those fear factors add together - 2 + 5 + 4 - that's 11 and that's well over his bite threshold.

Obviously, this is just a tool to use to understand it but it helps make clear what can lead a dog who has "only" growled before to bite now. The growl was a warning that he was threatened and it's only really luck that he never bit before.

I would do a couple of things...

1) I would have Newman checked over if he hasn't had a full blood panel or exam recently.

Some medical problems, including hypothyroid, can lead to aggression, as can pain. So it's always good to eliminate any medical causes.

2) I would read up as much as you can about fear and aggression.

"The Culture Clash" is an excellent book because it gives you a sense of how much anthropomorphizing can get us into trouble and what can lead to the kind of clash you just had. Some other good authors are Patricia McConnell - I like her little booklets tailored to specifica problems.

And our behaviorist for Jack is Sophia Yin, who has an excellent website and books and probably would respond to you individually if you were to contact her. www.drsophiayin.com (http://www.drsophiayin.com). She travels and lectures extensively and might know someone very good in your area or could connect you with someone who does. She is strictly a positive-training person who got started in animal behavior because she had an aggressive dog as a young woman and she went through all of the horrible old-fashioned training methods. She has a good basic book but I also would look to contacting someone about your problems specifically.

3) I would get a behaviorist involved - just take enough time to find someone you feel comfortable working with.

You need someone who can accurately read Newman and Pip - not someone who is going to throw canned solutions at them. Identifying Newman's triggers will be part of the process. Local really good rescues may be able to recommend someone or the vet. Our local SPCAs - one in each county - both concentrate on positive training and we have taken several classes through them and through Sophia.

Jack is on Prozac and I have to tell you that it has made a WORLD of difference for him. There were some hurdles he just couldn't quite get over and the medication made it possible. He is still fearful of many things but his baseline anxiety level has decreased substantially and he has been able to bond with Jeff in a way that he couldn't do without it.

Natalie

[pgcor]

Thank you Natalie. I just sent Dr. Yin a message. I just recently finished her book "How to Behave So Your Dog Behaves." Obviously a little late.

Newman growls at everyone over nothing and has always done that since he was about 1 - 2 years old. We never could figure it out and that's one of the reason we took him to a dog trainer that was highly recommended by the rescue site.

I know I'm not the best person to judge, but I was uncomfortable with the trainer. He seemed "mean" to me and his dislike of Pip was palpable. I don't like that Natalie. Newman growled when we were there and he said that Newman was afraid of Pip, and that Pip was a tyrant. He also said I was at fault for creating this "monster".

Now, grant it, Pip is a handful, but he's not a monster. He's the alpha and in my opinion, Newman wants to be the alpha. They are both dominant dogs.

I have always let Pip go out the door first, fed him first, etc., and always treated him that way for fear that Newman would challenge him. I hope a behaviorist can help me sort this out, as I don't know what I've done wrong in this situation.

Just as an example, If my husband or I tell Newman to get off the couch, he will, but he slinks off growling. Pip will not listen at all and has to be picked up and put off. Pip will growl when you pick him up too but I've never felt threatened by him.

The emergency vet asked us if Newman was a Pit Bull mix. To be honest, I don't know? Does he look like that to you?

Like it makes any difference, huh?

[CarolW]

Dog trainers and behaviorists are like vets, only more so. By that, I mean, their knowledge varies greatly. Most people EXPECT people working professionally with dogs to be knowledgeable; some are, some not. The profession is working toward developing standards, but that is no assurance, even if someone HAS met the standards, that their knowledge is anything like really complete and accurate.

The setting of standards often falls BEHIND what is now known about dogs.

Tue, 15 Feb 2011 07:01:38 (PST)

[Soaphie & Sydney's Mom]

Pam - do you have a picture of Newman posted somewhere?

[pgcor]

I've been looking around for a behaviorist and found that our Internal Specialists in Buffalo Grove have a department for that. They have a web site www.vetspecialty.com. We like this place and they also have an ER that treated Pip for his bite.

I'm going to call after work and see what they say. My husband said he let the dogs out in the yard today and Pip won't let Newman back in the house. He's just barking and snarling at him. I've seen this behavior before and sometimes have to pick Pip up so Newman can get back in the house.

I have pictures in my album of both dogs. I think you just have to click on my name? They are old, but I don't have any other pictures.

I have to say that I feel sorry for my Newmie. He is constantly tormented by the little one and maybe he's had enough. He really isn't a bad dog, but Pip is so crazy all the time. We thought he was such a good boy for tolerating so much.

[k9diabetes]

If you didn't have a good rapport with the behaviorist, that won't work for you. And obviously you don't want someone who is "mean." So hopefully you can find someone who is a good fit with you AND who is strictly a positive trainer.

Which is not the same as saying you will like everything that they tell you.... there is apparently a longstanding problem between these two dogs and it is going to take some hard work to address it. It certainly does sound to me like Newman is afraid of Pip and possibly is quite fearful generally. What you describe is not a confident dog secure in his place in the world.

I personally do not believe in dominance theories. Sophia has argued eloquently that dogs are not wolves. Even when feral, they don't live in the kinds of packs that wolves live in. They have been domesticated over thousands of years and have a very different social structure from wolves. I think most problems of behavior are more nuanced than that and I suspect fear is behind a lot of what people describe as dominance.

As an example, someone wrote recently on the Cushing's forum about a guest dog trying to hump her two dogs. Someone framed that as the guest dog trying to be dominant but a far more likely scenario, to me, is that the dog is insecure on another pair of dogs' turf, a natural reaction it seems to me, and is expressing a lack of confidence rather than a desire to take over.

Jack has spent as much time in classes and working with a behaviorist as he has because he skips a lot of the intermediate steps you've seen in Newman and goes straight to aggressively trying to drive off whatever scares him. His theory is that the best defense is a good offense and I suspect that's a pretty common thing with insecure dogs.

What is the history on Pip and Newman? What were their puppyhoods like?

Jack had zero socialization plus possibly some bad treatment so he got off to bad start and it's taken a lot of work to get him to where he is now, which is far from confident and worry-free but he is managed in the environment to avoid any problems and we work constantly on his brain games and trick skills to improve his confidence and continue to take him to classes so he experiences environments with other people and dogs that are safe.

Natalie

[pgcor]

Hi Natalie: Boy, I'm getting a very quick lesson in the dominance/submissive category. Apparently, there are quite a few people out there that do not subscribe to that theory. I must say it never occurred to me. I adopted Pip at 6 months. He was a rescue dog who the breeder sold to a store and the folks that bought him could not keep him when their apartment went condo. So at 6 mos. he wound up at the shelter. Pip came to us with staples left in his ears after they had been cropped. That's all I know about Pip.

We adopted Newman at around 3-4 months old and he was a very happy exuberant puppy. I know nothing about his background except that he was a Katrina rescue.

Both my dogs have been socialized though. They hang out at friend's houses with their dogs and my sister has two dogs too. They both went to puppy training with other dogs as well.

I fear that a combination of Pip and my inability to deal with his issues might be exacerbating the situation and making Newman unhappy.:(

Food time in my house is chaos. Pip has to be locked out of the kitchen or my husband has to hold him until the food is put down. Pip charges Newman as soon as I begin to prepare his breakfast or dinner. And Newman's is not even in the kitchen at the time! He's usually in another room - but that doesn't stop Pip. He barks continuously until he eats and then I have block him at his bowl so he will leave Newman alone. He'll gobble his food and then run around the corner and try to charge Newman. I have to do this every day, twice a day.

I couldn't even begin to explain all that goes on in my house. However, they both sleep in bed with us. And, sometimes they will sleep on the couch together or Newman will lick Pip's eyes and face. The fights are usually prompted by some signal we don't see or notice. If I had to put money on it though, I would say it starts with a stare from Pip.

I found that our vet specialist group has a behaviorist there and have left a message to speak with him.

Natalie, thank you for your insight as usual. I saw that Sophia Yin has a connection to Narnia a dog training center in Plainfield, Illinois. Unfortunately, that is a considerable distance for us to travel on a continuing basis and poor Newmie is always car sick.

[CarolW]

Hey, Pam!

Natalie's post makes an awful lot of sense. By the way, Dr. Sophia Yin is widely respected among veterinary behaviorists.

Even wolves don't really have "packs" - rather, it's a family structure. David Mech, wolf expert, has updated his materials since around the year 2000.

Here's what I think (so far, from your descriptions) I'm seeing:

Newman seems to be under attack from Pip really often. You reported elsewhere that his bite to Pip was first said to be 2 cm deep; then that was changed; the vet said it was shallower than that (I gather). ONE bite, no more - after Pip bit Newman.

So I think Senior Dog Pip keeps the problems going. Why? Well, because HE is scared!

Trouble spots typically include passageways, doorways, gateways, and so forth, and that's what your husband saw when Pip wouldn't let Newman back in the house.

It's very possible my Camellia would be as difficult as Pip is being. SHE was, i know, bullied by other dogs before I got her, and it seems clear that she believes ANY dog she can see is trouble for her.

I haven't gone the drug route yet, and I may not, as Camellia's responses to humans has changed quite a lot in the six months she's been my dog.

Also, she doesn't live with any other dogs, and I'm not planning to add any.

Sometimes there are drugs that can help a dog who is scared - include BOTH your dogs in that, I'd say, though if drugs are to be tried, Pip and Newman might be on different ones!

Any time drugs are used to help dogs adapt to their environments, behavior modification techniques are an essential part of the program.

A really good veterinary behaviorist would recommend drugs if s/he thought they would help, and also, help you plan a program of behavior modification, probably, for both dogs.

As Natalie pointed out, it's a LOT of work to change behavior in dogs who have such a longstanding history of anxiety and fear about each other (or about anything else). In principle, you would be making an effort to prevent further occurrence of the "bad behaviors."

I put that in quotes because we humans tend to see the behaviors as bad - but in fact, it's useless to try to think in terms of good dog, bad dog, when dealing with a situation like yours. The questions are, more, what can we do to ease life for both dogs? And how can we help them accomplish a peaceful relationship?

If you keep Newman, the job will be large indeed. Maybe you can keep him, successfully. As Natalie said, it's a lot of work. I only mark Newman for re-homing, if re-homing a dog becomes necessary, because he was the second dog on the scene. Of course, also, it might be more difficult to find another home for Pip - older, and diabetic. No question in MY mind, though - that you'll be working individually and together, with both dogs, as long as both remain with you.

In your place, I'd put a cheerful face on this, and once we get you the help you need, enjoy the work to ease things between these two dogs, and ALSO, ease things for Pip - and you! - at injection-time for instance.

You'll accomplish most if you look at it cheerfully - and your cheerfulness rubs off on the dogs.

Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:02:22 (PST)

[pgcor]

Thank you Carol. I'm attempting to read all I can to see what the calming techniques are...I'm waiting to hear back from the Behaviorist. I so want my dogs to be happy here. I can't thank you enough for all your personal time and efforts in trying help us through this.

I have to say that what you and Natalie have said is an entirely new way of thinking for me in terms of dog training, but it makes sense. I need to learn new techniques but am confident that I can do this.

[k9diabetes]

The problem of socialization is that the key time for it to occur was before these dogs came to live with you.

During the sensitive period for socialization and continuing afterward, dogs learn how to interact with others appropriately. In these early days, between 3 and 12 weeks in general (which probably varies across different breeds), they learn which animals and species are their friends, and whomever they're not introduced to, they may fear later on.

Learning to Behave So Your Dog Behaves, p. 26

Because it would not be adaptive for animals to be continuously spooking at rocks and trees and bird song, a mechanism is wired in to ensure the animal habituates to normal environmental features. This is the socialization period, a finite time when young animals are much less fearful and are much more likely to approach and investigate novel things. And they readily form social bonds.

Adult animals can habituate to novel things too; it simply takes much longer. The socialization window cannot remain open forever. If it did, then you could have animals trotting up to you in the forest. Every species of animal has acquired, through natural selection, an average time to assimilate and accept things in their environment. After this period, they will behave to increase distance, through fight/flight mechanisms, from anything to which they have not been socialized. There is also a "use it or lose it" clause; some animals will become increasingly fearful of things they have encountered in the critical period but see too seldom thereafter.

The Culture Clash, p. 59

So you didn't have either dog during that critical period.

Same thing with Jack, who was rescued at a minimum of 7 months old, maybe older, and we know that he lived in a deprived environment, plus I'm told he was pretty much terrorized by a small dog already in the home when they got him. Some might see his fence-fighting with the terriers next door as a game but even now, two years after we started working with him, when they bark, the hair on his shoulders stands straight up. Doesn't look like fun to me. He's much bigger than them but they still scare him.

We didn't go straight to Prozac. We worked with Jack for a long time and he made a lot of improvement. But when he demonstrated fear even of Jeff when enough triggers piled up, that's when Sophia felt that medication could really help him. And wow, he's so different on medication. He used to get nervous if Jeff just leaned over him (anything looming over him is a potential trigger) and there were certain things Jeff couldn't do with Jack that I could. Now, Jeff can do all of the same things I do with him and it's obvious from Jack's facial expressions and posture that he's not afraid when Jeff does them. So it's a huge turnaround.

It was his inability to completely relax with Jeff, who Jack LOVES, that was the catalyst for Sophia thinking that his baseline anxiety level was just too overwhelming and that he was a good candidate for medication. She has used it with her own dog.

Natalie

[pgcor]

Oh jeez, somegthing else I didn't know. Well, I'm certainly not opposed to medication if that's what it takes. Newman certainly didn't show any signs of fear when we adopted him. I can still see him jumping up in his "playpen" to get one of us to pick him up. He was so cute. He played with Pip in the yard of the shelter and all "seemed" well.

I will do the best I can for these two Natalie. I guess if Newman proves to be very unhappy here, I will attempt to find another home, albeit, it will be one of the saddest days of my life. But, I'm not going out without a fight.

[CarolW]

Hey, Pam!

Those calming techniques aren't going to work right off the bat, because both dogs are too upset to ISSUE calming signals themselves. However, you can still USE the signals, yourself, especially in approaches to either dog, and they will make a difference.

Maybe tomorrow I can go into a bit more detail.

Glad you're contacting a veterinary behaviorist; I think that's needed, with Pip and his diabetes.

I'm getting an impression that Pip is really worried about FOOD! Does that seem to you to be a major element in his being upset?

Do you know how his regulation is lately? When was his last BG curve? Can you get another sometime fairly soon? Any ketones?

I'm inclined to think that Pip's upset is what's mostly driving the relationship between the two dogs. Hard to tell what's going on with Newman, as it's totally natural he should be scared of Pip when Pip goes off like that.

Just do what you can in the interim, till we can get something sorted out for you. ACT as cheerful as you can in the interim!

Love and hugs,
Tue, 15 Feb 2011 18:00:50 (PST)

[k9diabetes]

We are probably overwhelming you... I just wanted you to know that a lot of what may be going on with both dogs is completely unrelated to anything you have done with them and can be pretty common in rescues.

Jack's aggression didn't start showing up until he was about 2 years old also. It started with some minor issues at the dog park, where previously he had been doing well. Certain dogs would set him off and once he decided he didn't like them, that was it. He would start an issue with them. And then fence fighting with the dogs next door on both sides.

Then we took him to Easter Sunday at my sister-in-laws house where (1) one of the kids went playing on the other side of the fence and she stuck her head up over the very tall fence and looked in on the festivities. Jack knew that wasn't right - this disembodied head seeming to float 8 feet in the air! And then (2) someone started an egg toss game... there couldn't have been a worse trigger for him than a strange man yelling and excitedly hurtling eggs across the patio... Jack couldn't recover from that and he was barking, lunging, wanting to nip when Jeff's dad tossed a wad of paper up and down in his hand. We had to take him home.

Prior to the dog park incidents, we had no idea he had an aggression problem but did know about his history.

I think for him it was a combination of maturing that can trigger some of this plus he was settled in and no longer "stuffing" it.

Hang in there. You may find that with a little good help Newman and Pip can work things out much better. Being aware of the problem is half the battle.

Natalie

[BestBuddy]

Hi,

There are so many ways to deal with this problem and you will have to find what works with your particular dogs. Any dog has the potential to bite, after all they have teeth don't they.

I remember years ago when still living at home, my father had a very well trained female working cattle dog named Cassie who just adored him. I had a very spoilt little house dog called Cindy who was my best friend. Both these dogs got along and there was no issue until one day (6 years later) my father was cutting tree branches with his faithful dog by his side and he knocked his cap off. My little dog decided it would be a good place to make a bed on the cap and dad's dog just attacked. It wasn't just one bite it was many that required lots of stitches. It changed our thinking about these dogs interacting but it never happened again and both dogs seemed to forget the incident. I never did and was always watchful. Cassie would let Cindy take her food and walk all over her but if dad was involved it was a different story. You said the fight was over a glove, whose?

Jenny

[CarolW]

Jenny,

Thanks so much for that report. I'm surprised there wasn't more fall-out after the attack - that the dogs got along okay afterwards.

The event has to have been extremely traumatic for your little dog Cindy - and, quite apparently, for Cassie, too!

In general, by nature, dogs are peaceful creatures, and do all they can to maintain peace; it's a characteristic of the domestic dog.

Your report is of one of the relatively rare exceptions to that - when stimuli - as Natalie reported, a la Jean Donaldson, build up to the point where triggers set dogs off.

I hadn't thought to ask whose glove it was that was the apparent trigger for the fight that resulted in bites to both Newman (first, apparently, though who knows) and Pip.

I keep feeling that Pip's focus on food could be a very large part of this picture. I know Kumbi at times was totally ravenous; the diabetes triggers that.

Tue, 15 Feb 2011 20:02:48 (PST)

[pgcor]

Natalie - You know....for once I don't feel overwhelmed just anxious to learn what I've been doing wrong and how to right this situation.

Jenny as to the glove - No one should have had the glove as it was on the counter and it was my husband's winter gloves. Newman took the glove off the counter and proceeded to chew it. When Pip saw that.....well

I never, ever give them rawhides or anything else that can't be eaten immediately because they try to take each other's toys or food. I usually take Newman in our basement and my husband keeps Pip upstairs when we want them to have a longer lasting treat.

Carol, Pip has been good with his regulation and if memory serves me (which it hasn't lately) the issue with food happened before Pip was diabetic. But, I can barely remember yesterday, so I could be wrong. I strongly believe the food issue is not only related to diabetes though.

The routine we go through to eat is a nightmare though! It is nonstop Pip barking until the food is placed in front of him and he's blocked in. I think I mentioned that he will routinely charge poor Newman (who by the way just lays there) unless we hold him or block him in. Typically I will lock one of the dogs in the kitchen with me until I can feed them. Basically just to keep poor Newman away from Pip.

As I'm writing this, I'm thinking... OMG what a nut house!

[CarolW]

Pam,

I've seen far WORSE nuthouses than yours. But sympathize with the feeling.

Perhaps Pip was already leaning in the diabetes direction before he was diagnosed. Or, who knows what might have set him off about food.

You had mentioned that you really liked the place where you took Pip to have his neck wound cared for; if they have a veterinary behaviorist, perhaps that one would be good for you, Pip and Newman.

Because you seem to be catching on about dog-behavior, I think it quite possible you can find some workable solutions that will ease your lives - yours, your hubby's, Newman's and Pip's. It WILL take time, and it WILL take effort. So, while making efforts, you WILL also need to keep the faith, learn to relax as much as you can, be cheerful about it all - and take breaks when you need them!

We are REALLY loading you up here, and you can't do everything at once!

I tell ya, I have to do the same with Camellia, but the payoff, so far, is that today is our six-month "birthday" of Camellia becoming my dog - and we HAVE made lots of progress. Our remaining Big Deal is - other dogs. I, too, will need to relax and keep the faith. Hoping Camellia will eventually (with assistance) learn she is safe around other dogs.

Love and hugs to you, Pam; you are a brave woman.

Wed, 16 Feb 2011 07:03:51 (PST)

[CarolW]

Pam - whatever you or Natalie did, your pictures are now available for viewing:

http://k9diabetes.com/forum/album.php?albumid=17

Thanks! Great pictures! I saved them.

Wed, 16 Feb 2011 07:24:57 (PST)