Border collie Jack

[pgcor]

Hi Natalie - I just had to ask, but could Jack have allergy/asthma problems that could affect his breathing? Could that explain his exercise intolerance???

[k9diabetes]

I finally had to abandon all of the collars and put a bandage on it. It's in a spot that's difficult to keep anything on for long - socks and wraps tend to sag down, exposing the wound again. But it has finally dried out... or it was until he got past the bandage today when no one was looking. But I think it's past the worried-about-an-infection stage.

Pam, as far as I know it is not allergy related. Without Metacam, he actually limps, rolls his back right leg, and sometimes bunny-hops when running. And if he overdoes it, he will do the same while taking Metacam. Like if he does any extensive running or jumping, even inside the house. It only takes a few very energetic leaps before he seems to be pretty sore.

I figure it's like a back ache I can get from certain types of walking. If you were to press down on my spine, it wouldn't physically hurt. It only hurts when I do that particular activity and shortly after I stop that activity it stops hurting. Similarly, the neurologist did a really rigorous exam and put some intense pressure on his back and didn't get a response. So he can't localize the pain.

Jack's exercise tolerance has been limited ever since we adopted him. At one year of age, 30 minutes at the dog park, where he loped around but didn't tear full out with other dogs, and he was done. And as far as I know his heart, etc. are all fine. I would guess that the two discs that are damaged were from some kind of an injury and that he lost that top front tooth at the same time. So my guess is that he's had this problem as long as we have had him.

Which is sad for a young dog. Who knows what might have happened to him.

Natalie

[buddingartist]

Natalie, I am just catching up on your boy Jack. It feels like a bad news/good news scenario. You now know and are satisfied that you have explored the situation as best as you could and it is now a question of learning to manage and live with the condition.

When Cleo had her surgery when she was around 7-8 months, coupled with a level 4 heart murmur, we learned that when <missy< stopped suddenly during her walk, layed down and panted, we needed to give her time. She lets us know when she is ready to resume her walk and she has let us know for 10+ years when she can't move any further. On the positive side, she has been overall healthy otherwise. We couldn't ask for more. Now, thanks to your suggestion the Metacam in pill form works a lot better than the liquid form and when she has a flare up and she has a greater difficulty to walk, 1/2 pill twice a day for a day or 2 usually does it.

Jack is one lucky boy that you found him. He couldn't be in better hands:cool:

Louise

[Dollydog]

Hi Natalie....I've been following your posts on Jack but haven't had anything to add or comment on.

When Lady had a spot on her front leg that wouldn't heal....can't remember what it was exactly but it was during the last few years of her life....I made a homemade bandage. I cut out cardboard from a cracker or cereal box and rolled it into a shape that would fit up over her foot....it would sit just above her foot so she could walk without a problem. I cut out a few pieces in the cardboard and taped cheesecloth over the cut out spots to allow the air to get at the spot but she couldn't lick it. I had a combination of adhesive tension bandages and duct tape over the top and bottom of the "bandage" and that held it in place. She never bothered it so it stayed there for a day and then I was able to take it off to clean the spot and put it back in place again. Not sure how that would work for a younger bigger dog who would be more active than Lady was then!!
Take care,
Jo-Ann

[Bruno'sMom]

Hi Natalie, I've been trying to follow up on how things are going with Jack. I know we are built differently than our four legged friends but I suffer from chronic back pain and I actually have to move around more often than I used too because I seem to ache and stiffen up from not moving. Does Jack shift around when he's sleeping? Does he seem more stiff/sore when he gets up from a nap or in the mornings? At least he's in good hands with such loving parents. If anyone can figure a way to help him and/or make him more comfortable so he can live a more normal life it's you! :)

[k9diabetes]

Hi Jo-Ann! :) What a great idea!! A toilet paper or paper towel tube would have worked very well I think. I will remember that next time.

His leg has healed up nicely and now I'm just keeping it bandaged to keep him from tearing at it again. I'll unbandage it once the fur grows back in. His butt was shaved too on top from the spinal tap and he looks like the kid from the old TV series... Our Town? He's got this crazy shock of hair sticking straight up.

Kathy, Jack's problems definitely seem to be related more to activity than rest. He does change positions periodically at night but he doesn't fidget or change them often.

He's the most ritualistic dog. Every morning he starts by rolling around on the floor and rubbing on the side of the bed. That's his pre-potty routine. From the bed you just see his white flag of a tail traveling across the end of the bed! LOL

I tell him "Let's go potty" and he goes down the hall and makes a right into my office, checks my desk, and then heads in the opposite direction for the slider to go out into the backyard.

Every meal, he goes into the hall to check on Katie, the cat.

And at night he jumps up on the bed and stays there for just about exactly the same amount of time every night - maybe 20 minutes. Then he gets up like some alarm clock in his head went off and jumps off of the bed and lays at the foot of it with his neck wrapped around one of the legs. In the morning he's always sound asleep in his bed.

He never reverses the night-time routine - always the same order.

Natalie

[CarolW]

Ahhh, Natalie; I so much enjoyed your description of Jack's rituals and routines! Dogs so totally thrive on these!

Camellia has her rituals and routines, too. She joins me, coming up on Our Bed, moving to the wall-side, because somehow, I managed to teach her that's the side I want her on (so I don't inadvertently knock her off the bed in my sleep!). She'll lie down there, stay for a time, then move down to the foot of the bed (still on it) - and, a short time later, jump off the bed, come out here into the only other room (the Great Room, of course), and sleep on the sofa - her favorite spot since we moved here.

This would make an interesting thread!

Hoping Jack continues to do well - glad his leg is healed up! He is, indeed, a very fortunate dog!

Mon, 4 Jul 2011 02:17:34 (PDT)

[Patty]

That's so funny Natalie :D

[Soaphie & Sydney's Mom]

I LOVE SEEING SYDNEY'S TAIL AS SHE WALKS AT THE END OF THE BED! Such a great description of Jack's tail....

[CarolW]

Oh, yes, Tami - the vision of this TAIL moving along the end of the bed is a lovely one! Camellia's tail doesn't reach quite that high - she usually carries it curled over her back, less often, just loose and hanging behind her. Very different kind of tail! (Hope Sydney feels better soon!)

Mon, 4 Jul 2011 12:21:18 (PDT)

[Bruno'sMom]

Natalie,
I'm sitting here smiling at the image of
Jack's routine! It's so funny how they all have their little quirks. I am starting to see a more noticeable improvement with Bruno. The better he's feeling the more demanding he gets! My little guy looks like an 'ewok' from star wars when he stands on his back legs (which he does often) and yesterday morning he woke me up by standing on his hind legs and hitting me with his front paw! When I didn't respond fast enough he started grabbing things off my nightstand- knocking the remote to the floor, chewing kleenex and barking in a high pitched tone. You can tell he is simply being a baby brat =D I have been so worried with his lack of energy that I'm actually happy to see him showing some spunk!
:) I'm glad Jack's leg is healing up well. I wonder if they make ice packs & heating pads that would be safe for dogs, to ease their aches and pains. I use a dish towel (sewn into a packet & filled with rice) heated in the microwave to ease my aching back, do you think this would make Jack more comfortable after he has been active? Maybe lay it near his spine when he's napping? Just a thought. Kathy :-)

[k9diabetes]

Hi Kathy,

I owe you a text message - will do that tomorrow.

I sure am glad to hear good news about Bruno.

We know that the human insulin works for him so if you can't get Vetsulin I think the good vet you've been working with can see about getting Bruno regulated on something else. I still think it's possible he can do okay on NPH.

Will be in touch,

Natalie

[CarolW]

Natalie - the other day, you mentioned having a really bad day - hope that wasn't a problem with Jack!

Anyway, I'm wondering how Jack - and you - are doing? No need to reply if you're too swamped!
Sun, 10 Jul 2011 00:16:20 (PDT)

[k9diabetes]

Fortunately my very bad day / week is strictly related to humans. Nothing at all to do with dogs - as is usually the case!

In fact, I have a Happy Dog Story!

A few months ago a woman who lives about 50 miles away managed to get her story on the local news. Her young black labrador, Rocko, had been diagnosed with cancer and he needed surgery to survive. She didn't have the money so she decided to hold a garage sale to raise it and succeeded in getting the local news to cover the garage sale. As you can imagine, that generated a lot of donations from people who couldn't go all that way for the garage sale. In response, she sent everyone who donated a button with Rocko's picture on it and I've had that button on my desk ever since. I have often thought about Rocko and wondered if he had his surgery and whether he survived.

A couple of days ago, I found an envelope in the mailbox with Rocko's return address on it and I tell you, I was really afraid to open it.

But inside I found an invitation to Rocko's "Full Return to Health" party at the end of the month. :) That was the most wonderful thing to read...

Jack's back remains the same. His good news is that the three Jack Russells next door who have terrorized him for the past almost three years with their mere presence moved down the street to a different house!!! I'm hoping the house stays empty for a while and Jack can learn that his backyard is no longer a scary place and then maybe either no dog will move in or it will be a calm quiet type.

I have been a bit swamped so my presence here has been in bursts unfortunately.

Natalie

[CarolW]

Aha; I see. Humans can be difficult, indeed. Hope the worst of THAT is over! I wouldn't have known you were THAT swamped, since you did manage to attend in really crucial places here!

SO glad the Jack Russells moved away from right next door. I adore Terriers, but would never myself have taken a Jack Russell on purpose; they tend to be less tractable than some of the other Terriers.

Hope Jack has a Safe Yard for a very long time to come.

LOVE the story of Rocko! That is truly wonderful news!

Mon, 11 Jul 2011 03:29:04 (PDT)

[buddingartist]

Hi Natalie,

I read in my thread that your boy Jack is on metacam daily. How is he doing? Seeing any improvement in his gait and tolerance to exercice?

Louise

[k9diabetes]

Jack has been on Metacam daily since November but we did take him off of it for a week in April so the neurologist could see how Jack walked and ran without it providing pain relief.

Within 48 hours of stopping Metacam, Jack starts to limp, walk stiffly, roll his right hip, and bunny hop when he runs. It's all mild but the difference is visually obvious.

So Metacam is, at least at the moment, allowing him to hold steady at his current activity level with no noticeable limping or stiffness. Whatever the problem is, it's now chronic. It has not improved at all since last June. Hasn't gotten any worse since November. Any significant running or jumping out of doors and he quits within a couple of minutes.

Natalie

[eyelostit]

I'm glad he's doing ok with the Metacam, Niki did best on that with her hips as she got older, I never noticed any side effects.

[k9diabetes]

We went to a distant park yesterday with Jack. Two and a half hours in the car each way and then we walked 2.5 miles on the trail through a small stand of Sequoiahs. Didn't mean to walk him that far. Jack is somewhat sore but not terribly so. He did better than I thought he would. He was really ready to get back in the car though.

Natalie

[Judi]

I'm glad to hear he felt well enough to walk! yay Jack

[Patty]

Fun day! Good to hear he tolerated it fairly well :)

[k9diabetes]

Three years ago today we met Jack at the SPCA Thrift Store and took him home. And since they said he was about one year old, we designated the same day as his birthday.

:) So Happy 4th Birthday to Jack! :)

He had a bowl of ice cream and unwrapped a new toy - a Kong rubber stick that squeaks. Frankly, he has so many toys that I don't think he thought much about yet one more! More interested in the ice cream.

He's one of those package unwrappers that, if he had thumbs, he would have folded the paper neatly to save for next year! LOL He very methodically tore off bits at one end, working his way down the side of the stick.

It's been an interesting year. A lot of work done on his back problem by us and a huge amount of progress on Jack's part in his behavior. I think due in large part to the benefit of Prozac. Reducing his baseline level of anxiety has greatly improved his confidence and ability to trust and feel safe.

Three years after taking him home, we are both totally smitten, I swear more so every day.

Natalie

[Shellie]

Happy Birthday, Jack! Wow...four! ONLY four! lol He's a baby around here with all these oldtimers! lol So glad he came to you and you've been able to help him! Hugs!

[diggydog]

Happy birthday jack!!!!

[Judi]

Happy Birthday neat and tidy Jack! He is a lucky dog to have found you!

[Soaphie & Sydney's Mom]

Neat and Tidy - that's awesome!

Happy happy day Jack!!!!!

[Patty]

Happy 4th Birthday Jack!!!

[jesse girl]

happy birthday jack

glad to see things are really improving for him and good vibrations for the future and many more birthdays to come

[eileen]

Woo Hoo!, another Birthday Celebration...

Happy Birthday Jack!

[HarrysMom]

Happy Birthday, Jack! (One day late - sorry) May your upcoming year be filled with happiness and health. :)

[buddingartist]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY JACK

Wonderful to read about the improvement. Good on you Natalie

Louise

[jjefferjo]

Happy Birthday Jack!

[MaryLea]

Happy Birthday, Jack!!!

[bgdavis]

Happy Birthday, Jack! Isn't it grand to be 4? Hope you and 'mom' had a great day.

Bonnie and Angel Criss

[k9diabetes]

Thanks everyone for your good wishes! :) It just doesn't seem like he could be four years old already. Times goes by so fast.

Natalie

[peggy0]

Time does go by quickly. Toby is 2 this week!

[pgcor]

Oh wow Natalie! I was surprised that this was Jack's 4th birthday too. I feel like he's still your new puppy!

Well, what more can I say, except I wish you and Jack many, many more happy birthdays together!

[Abby's Mom]

Happy Birthday, Happy Birthday, Jack!! What a great age!.

[CarolW]

Well, I'm only FIVE days late wishing you a Happy Birthday, dear Jack! Sorry for the delay!

I'm so glad things are going well! Oh, my, dogs do grow up, don't they!

Love and hugs,
Tue, 18 Oct 2011 03:58:38 (PDT)

[Dollydog]

Happy Belated Birthday Jack....it doesn't seem like you could be 4 years old already!!!
I'm so glad to hear he's more comfortable with life and enjoying himself with both of you....will check back more often for updates...
(((HUGS)))
Jo-Ann

[k9diabetes]

Jo-Ann! What a pleasure to see you here! How are you?

Natalie

[Dollydog]

Hi Natalie and thank you...I'm just awesome!! Our lives revolve around a gorgeous little girl who lives across the street from us....she will be 6 months old tomorrow! Her name is Keira and we just adore her. We always remember to let her parents(our son and his wife) know that they are just as important to us as they've always been....but I'm not sure we're very successful at that!! ;)

I check up on everyone about once or twice a month....depends on how the old computer is working. Victoria is doing great....she would love to lick the baby's face but she's not allowed....just her hand. :D

Take care and will keep checking on you two...
Jo-Ann

[k9diabetes]

Yesterday was going along pretty normally. We got Jack out later than usual, about 4pm, took him to the park and let him chase a ball a few times and then walked our usual distance. More exercise than usual by a tad but not a lot. He also got hold of a few things at the park and ate them, no idea what. Most likely poop as that's what it usually is....

A bit later my husband and I went out to grab some dinner and take care of some errands, leaving Jack at home. Got home at 8pm, fed Jack and Katie, and then I gave Jack a rawhide for entertainment, one of the big knotted end ones.

He was acting a bit strange with the rawhide... he wanted me to stay with him while he ate it and he was chewing it frenetically. Usually he will gnaw on it fairly leisurely but instead he was hyper and crunching it into pieces... it's hard to explain but I commented a couple of times to my husband that he was acting strange with it. I watched him the whole time so I knew he hadn't swallowed any big pieces.

Once he finished the rawhide, he was antsy and unsettled. We took him onto the bed to lay down with him and see if he would relax. He couldn't settle. Every 30 seconds he got up and changed positions and groaned. He was obviously in pain and his tail was held at a weird angle. He didn't want to sit and asked three times to go out into the back yard where he just paced and circled.

Since he had eaten unknown things at the park and just had dinner, I was really worried about the possibilities of bloat or of a sharp bone or other object he might have consumed earlier. His stomach didn't seem tender but I was really worried because he was in such obvious pain.

So off to the emergency vet. We are fortunate that the e-vet is just 20 minutes from home and they were having a very slow night so Jack got lots of attention.

After a lot of examination, it seemed like his tail was what hurt. He was holding it at an odd angle still. But no obvious injury to it.

The vet on duty, who I liked very much, gave him an injection of a narcotic pain med and did some x-rays of his body from the tail to this neck - nothing obviously wrong, no foreign bodies, no sign of abdominal tenderness. We came home and with the pain meds Jack slept well overnight.

The first thing I noticed when we got home was that now, instead of being held at an odd angle, his tail was completely limp. And it has been that way pretty much since. He did manage to wag it a bit this morning, anemically but enough to know that his tail wasn't paralyzed.

We had to be out of town this morning so took him with us. He's better but not recovered. And still this limp tail just hanging there and freaking me out.

So I went online and boom... something I have never heard of: limber tail syndrome.

Common in hunting dogs but can occur in any dog with a tail.

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/limbertail-update704.html

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/8_1/features/15685-1.html

This sounds EXACTLY like what happened to Jack, who is improved 20 hours later but still not recovered.

Jack was already on an NSAID daily. We try not to give Tramadol because of a potential interaction between Tramadol and his Prozac so he got a narcotic pain killer yesterday, has been on his own today.

I had never ever heard of this before.

Natalie

[jesse girl]

i have seen this in jesse before her tail would become crooked or cocked at a weird angle and i remember it did not take long to get better it almost looked broken running my hand down her tail she had no pain and i did not feel anything broken

its nice to finally have a possible answer for that it was very strange looking

it is kind of scary looking glad you found a possible answer and hope jack gets better soon

[Judi]

I've never heard of that. glad you got an answer and I hope it doesn't happen again. scary

[BestBuddy]

Wow never heard of that one.
Sounds like all will be well in a couple of days luckily.
Natalie, I hope Jack doesn't find any more new diseases/ailments for you.

Jenny

[k9diabetes]

He seems slightly better tonight. Wagged his tail a little a few times in the past few minutes while playing, though it is still painful enough that he refuses to sit.

It was a good chance to check out the ER clinic as it changed hands last year. The vet we had last night used to be a tech for the vet I really love who is mostly retired now and she had his clinic's very open and supportive style. And they were great handling Jack. I was back with him everywhere except for the x-rays and they were very gentle with him.

Natalie

[Shellie]

Wow! Who would have thought their tails could get 'broken'! That's amazing but I'm very glad Jack seems better! How awful to have something we love so much get injured!

[CarolW]

Gosh, Natalie! So sorry about the "cold tail" - that's what I knew it as.

I encountered that at a clicker-training workshop, around 1997 (where I knew more than the presenter, but the presenter was doing well with it) - when a four-month-old Lab attending the workshop had "cold tail." She'd had it from a day or two before. So sad, seeing her discomfort, and the tail just hanging down. She (the dog) was a good sport about the whole thing.

The presenter was a local veterinarian (from the Big City - not very local, but within half a day's reach).

Today was Camellia's Bath-and-Spray day; it took me ALL DAY to catch her for the bath, and she takes a couple of hours to dry; then comes the spray.

Well, I suddenly got very paranoid about Cold Tail, and shut her in (blocked the dog door) for a while. Nearly panicked when I stepped outside briefly, leaving her in, and saw through the window that her tail was hanging limp - I'd let her out to pee in the chill not long after the bath, when she was still quite wet. Power of suggestion!

Managed the spray about 1.5 hours after the bath, and was watching her tail.

WHEW - her tail came back up. Relief! I have to control myself some, so as not to be too suggestible!

I read the links you provided; most interesting. I'm curious that they call it "Limber Tail," when it seems to me, the tail is anything BUT limber!

You are such a good caretaker, Natalie. Hope Jack recovers in the next few days, with no remaining difficulties afterwards.

Camellia is waving her tail, suggestively, at Jack, and says, Look, Jack;here's how it's done!

Yeah, riiiiiiiight!

Wishing you the best!

Love and hugs,
Tue, 6 Mar 2012 21:10:19 (PST)

[Abby's Mom]

Glad everything is well for all of you...I too never heard of that. I wonder if it only occurs in certain breeds. For example how would know for a Dog that had a cropped tail?

They certainly keep us on our toes!

[Patty]

Wow, interesting Natalie. Glad Jack is doing somewhat better. Hope he recovers quickly. Also glad the Emergency Vet is so great!

[buddingartist]

Wow, I have learned something new today. I never even thought that the tail could affect a dog's balance.

Jack knows he can throw all kinds of curves at you Natalie because you are so knowledgeable and if you don't know, you will find the answer.

It's a good thing that you had access to excellent vet care and hope Jack recuperates quickly.

Louise

[k9diabetes]

Jack seems slightly better today but he's still subdued and didn't really object to being rested today. This evening when he went out to potty, he managed to raise his tail above his hips for a couple of seconds. First time he's done that since Monday night. It's mostly hanging limp with just the first few inches standing away from his body a bit. But he has wagged it multiple times today.

If I want to turn in an insurance claim I will need a formal diagnosis - not sure whether to get that from the e-vet or talk with our regular vet.

Jack was due for blood work anyway so had them do a panel and everything looked lovely on that, including his thyroid level.

And Jack was so good at the vet's too. They put him through quite an exam - the orthopedic exam involves a whole lot of pushing and pulling on his legs and neck - plus x-rays and a blood draw and a urine draw and an IV injection of the pain med. He managed to tolerate it very well and was not muzzled. Everyone on duty that night was very relaxed and had quiet personalities.

Think I will call the regular vet tomorrow and see whether I should bring him in for a formal diagnosis.

Natalie

[Soaphie & Sydney's Mom]

So glad you are seeing come improvement Natalie. Also glad his blood work is fine.

[jjefferjo]

Glad jack is better and I must say
Nobody but you Natalie :)

[Patty]

Good to hear, Natalie. Hope the improvement continues.

[Abby's Mom]

Glad he is getting better, and I just love Jack's story. Finally got some time to read it.

[Shellie]

Yay! Puppies tail wagged! NOTHING better than that! Ok...maybe puppy bellies but not much else! :) Hugs!

[Sparkhouse]

Hi Natalie

I posted a note to you yesterday, I am not sure where it "went". This is my first time ever participating in a forum so I am a bit rough.

At the risk of repeating myself, I was just sending my feel better wishes to your lad, and to thank you for taking the time to send me your reassurance regarding Mac's eyes especially when your plate is so full!!

Much appreciated.

Sian and Mac

[k9diabetes]

Hi Sian,

You posted the note to my profile page. If you click on my user name, you can go there and see it and my reply. Thanks for your kind note! :)

Never thought I'd be so happy to see a simple curl of Jack's tail!

Outside he's holding it generally at hip level or higher and the cute little curl at the end is back most of the time plus he's wagging it a lot more. Before it was just hanging limp and flat like a pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey fake tail... Still not 100% but much improved and he's obviously feeling better too.

Natalie

[buddingartist]

That's good new Natalie.

Jack is obviously bouncing back quite fast. Good boy Jack... wag that tail for mommy:D

Louise

[k9diabetes]

Mr. Jack's tail looks pretty much normal to me today. Standing at attention like a flag the way it used to. Yesterday he still was reluctant to sit. Seemed better last night and will check today to see how that is going.

No luck with the diagnosis yesterday. Saw a new vet at the same practice and she didn't want to do it. Might try to get the ER vet to issue a diagnosis given his rapid recovery.

A while ago I was in another room and heard Jack issue a couple of low boofs like something was outside. I went to the backyard and found a big rubber ball about 14 inches across. The new neighbors seem to lose something over our fence every day... did I mentiion that the new neighbors are breeding pitbulls who spend 24 hours a day in kennels with little human contact?

Anyway, this big blue rubber ball was scaring Jack. I brought it inside and started tossing kibble toward it - it was breakfast time so he was hungry. Took him a little while to get close to it but eventually he was willing to take kibble from deep underneath and to bump it with his nose. Doesn't completely trust it but is willing to manipulate it and can be around it without constant worry.

Natalie

[jesse girl]

i did think about getting one of those hurdling balls for jesse but i dont think i could get her not to be timid of it looks like so much fun for them pushing it around

sounds like something fun for jack to do and if with your training it maybe something he can do on his terms and stop when hes had enough

its great the tail is back at attention i felt so happy when jesses returned to normal her problem did start with exercise chasing rabbits high impact and it did happen a few times after that not recently though

[buddingartist]

Good news about Jack.

Say Natalie, do your neighbours know who you are and know of your dedication to animal welfare?

Louise

[Shellie]

Jack's tail is back! Whooohooo! SO happy that is resolving! Dogs need wiggly tails..it's just a must have item...even if small.

And agreed...do those folks know yet what an activist you are?

[k9diabetes]

It's generally a mistake to let me say too much about the neighbors... once I get started it's hard to stop me.

The situation works okay for Jack because they aren't rushing the fence when they are stuck in kennels all the time. They sometimes bark a lot and Jack is stressed by them but is managing as long as they aren't able to come at the fence.

But those poor dogs... I feel so bad for them. And I feel bad for whoever winds up with the puppies. Partly because they are a risky breed and completely unsocialized to humans or to much else beyond the kennel walls and partly because the kind of people who want the kind of dogs he sells are not good dog caretakers. He is definitely marketing them to the kind of people who like spike collars and huge chains for leashes and get a little kick out of having a dangerous dog. Dogs as an extension of self or lack thereof.

As far as I can tell, they are an income and an ego thing for him. Definitely not because he loves living with dogs.

[farrwf]

I sure hope they don't find a way into your yard.

You're spot on with with your "profile" of the average pitbull owner. Seen way too much of it. Like you, had neighbors breeding them and it was nothing but trouble till the police made several arrests. The mutts frequently got out of their yard and terrorized joggers and anyone else they came across. It also happened to be a center for criminal activity in a nice neighborhood.

One day a few years back I saw several cars of undercover cops pull in their cove to serve a search warrant. Well, about the time the police got inside the house I heard several gunshots. The owner of the pitbulls had set them on the police and the cops killed two of them. After they took the cretin owner to jail, the county animal control arrived and removed 13 pitbulls & puppies from the premises.

I could ramble all day, and part of tomorrow about the problems the neighborhood had with that mess, but I'll stop now. Anyone with doubts about the veracity of the "profile", just drive around different sections of your city or town and see who owns most of the pitbulls you come across.

BTW, never read an article about a Labrador Retriever, Golden, Min Pin or Pug killing or maiming anyone.

[buddingartist]

..... and then people say: <Oh, those are bad dogs<.

I say bad dogs, bad owners. This makes my blood boil when I hear of things like that.

Last summer, police raided a house not far from where I live. There were 20+ dogs walking around in their feces, no food, no clean drinking water, windows all closed and the owner had been away for a few days.

A Facebook friend posted something on my wall recently:

Wouldn't it be nice, if for just one day, dogs could take bad owners to the shelters.

Needless to say, this thing got reposted many times.

Louise

[MaryLea]

Louise, I'm going to post that on my FB page! You are right, too that bad dogs ususally belong to irresponsible owners.

Mary

Wouldn't it be nice, if for just one day, dogs could take bad owners to the shelters.

[momofdecker]

Natalie -
I'm so glad to hear Jack's tail is doing better. Recently read through the beginning of his thread. Loved the stories! Some of his behaviors reminded me a lot of Decker in his younger years :).

Sorry to hear about the pitbulls next door. One side of our fence is chain link - belongs to our 90+ year old neighbor, however, most of it is on our property line. She is a very sweet woman (who still drives) but given her age we suspect it won't be to many more years before we have a new neighbor on that side. Not sure I look forward to that day!

On the other side of her is a gentleman who lives by himself with his pitbull. Beautiful, non aggressive dog. He also has a chain link fence but we always see him walking the dog or holding the dog on a leash within the fence. One day as he walked by us he laughed as he told us how he had the fence put up for the dog only to learn in a few hours that the dog could and would jump it. Give our neighbor a lot of credit and have much respect for him for being such a responsible pet owner. One of few who try to counteract the bad name the breed receives due to irresponsible owners/breeders.

[Shellie]

I always feel so sorry for the entire pit bull breed...it's been so maligned over the years due to bad owners! There are two about a block away that are constantly getting out...completely irresponsible owners. Unfortunately, these dogs, while they are absolutely sweet and no problem with people, are completely prey driven. Both of them have attacked my Hank several times. Luckily, if I pick Hank up, they go away or don't even bother him. BUT... they've killed a cat and attacked several other dogs in the neighborhood causing severe damage. Police say nothing can really be done! Dogs and cats are property and so these 'crimes' aren't that big of a deal...damage done only to property. Another neighbor who was injured while pulling one of the dogs off hers is working to get the owners held responsible for all of this. My one fear is that they will put the dogs down and unfortunately, I think it will come to that. The dogs aren't safe anymore...because of their owners! That makes me SO angry! They are such beautiful animals...and probably very loving animals but because their owners didn't train them properly... they're the ones who will suffer! Oh I could go on and on! It's such a frustrating situation! I love that saying tho...these dogs SHOULD take their owners to the pound...preferably a kill shelter! :(

[buddingartist]

Hi Natalie

How is Jack progressing today. Is he able to sit with no obvious signs of pain?

Were you able to finally get the diagnosis so you can put the claim in as I'm sure it must have cost you a pretty bundle the way you described the treatment that he received at the vet emergency clinic.

Let us know when you have a chance

Louise

[CarolW]

So glad Jack is doing better with his tail!

I'm incompetent to comment on the neighbor-pitbull situation. Truly horrid. Sorry they are your immediate neighbors, but glad the dogs aren't at the fence bugging Jack from there.

There's so much in the world of dogs that so often tears at my heart. This place is a good place to be, here on these forums, because it's a heart-healing place, all around.

Jack - wag that lovely tail of yours! Camellia wags hers for you and Natalie!

Tue, 13 Mar 2012 18:30:10 (PDT)

[k9diabetes]

Jack's tail seems normal to me, though I'm still being a bit protective and cutting his exercise time a bit short for a while. It started raining today and is expected to continue, so that will give him some additional rest time.

I should probably call the ER vet back and see if she will slap a diagnosis on his chart there. I don't want to spend any more money trying to get a bit back from insurance. I suspect the vet I really like who is now mostly retired might have given a diagnosis. I sure miss him.

As for the pit bulls...

I totally agree - it's not pit bulls that are the problem so much as it is people drawn to pit bulls for all the wrong reasons.

I do think pit bulls present some risks that other breeds do not, including a tendency to be dog aggressive by breeding. The San Francisco Bay Area group that advocates for pit bulls used to say last time I checked that one should never ever leave multiple pit bulls or pit bulls and other dogs unsupervised. Ever. Especially unneutered pit bulls. Perhaps extreme, but safer.

So not everybody should have one. People maybe should be licensed to have one... Same goes for a lot of other breeds too. But not many other breeds have that genetic tendency.

The pit bull who was living next door when we moved here in 2001 was a classic case of human stupidity and neglect. Boyfriend buys house as investment, lets girlfriend rent it, and gives her a pit bull puppy. She hasn't got a clue about dogs so she throws the puppy out into the backyard chained to a doghouse. Rain, shine, wind, cold, 110 degrees... the dog's chained out in the backyard. She started barking and whining constantly. Who could blame the poor thing. So neighbors contacted Animal Control about the noise and that got her allowed into the house for periods during the day.

But never potty trained or trained at all or socialized or walked. She was already ruined. She chewed out walls and doors from the floor to as high as she could reach. She urinated in the house. Once she almost burned it down by jumping on the stove and managing to open the gas line on it.

And she was terribly dog aggressive. The older she got, the worse it got.

She constantly tried to fence fight and get at Chris. Fortunately for Chris, he wasn't even interested and he just ignored her.

But one day she got out - she also dug under the fence constantly and roamed the neighborhood - when she heard Chris and I coming back to the house on a walk. She went around the house, under the fence and across the street toward Chris and I snarling. I had no way to defend us other than my voice and a walking shoulder slung bag I swung at her. If there hadn't been a male neighbor out at the same time who hollered at her and helped back her off, I think she would have attacked us. He kept her at bay until we got back in the house.

Another call to Animal Control and she was required to be kept confined to their property. But one day she heard a tiny little chihuahua who lived across the street out in front of his house. The minute someone opened the door to leave, she tore past him and attacked the chihuahua, who didn't survive his injuries.

And then... they decided she should have puppies... because there's nothing more calming to a dog aggressive pit bull than motherhood... That's when she started trying to break down our wooden fence to get at Chris and every trip out for a walk was like stepping into a mine field because you never knew if she would be out there.

One of the best days of our lives, ever, was the day that wench had a big blowup with her boyfriend and moved out, taking that poor ruined dog with her.

Probably that dog would never have had a great temperament. She was a ruined pit bull from conception most likely. But six months of raising her properly when she was young and maybe she would not have been a dog killer.

I think there's a very good possibility that Chris had pit bull or Am Staff in his mutt mix. But he was the most nonviolent dog I ever met. Another dog couldn't make him fight.

Natalie

[Shellie]

Those stories just make me angry, Natalie. And I don't feel sorry for the people...it's the dogs I feel bad for. And there really isn't anything you can do! I think that is probably the most frustrating part. We have a lot of pits here due to having a certain type of people that live in part of our town. Thankfully, they keep them there so we don't see much trouble. But I always wonder when I do see one what it's life is like. Why does it always take a death of some other animal or person before any action is taken? I know it takes time and effort to get our society up to par on these things but sometime I wonder if we'll ever get there.

[Soaphie & Sydney's Mom]

Don't even get me started on pitbulls...

[CarolW]

Right, Tami, considering what you and Soaphie and Sydney went through.

I agree with Natalie - it's a genetic feature that underlies the problems. Some dedicated people can keep Pit Bulls (and their genetic cousins) safely, because they pay close attention to meeting all the dogs' real needs, and remain aware of the genetic tendencies. AND keep the dogs under strict control at all times.

Back to Jack, Natalie; I'm so glad he continues to improve. Good boy, Jack! Camellia will try to wag in synch with you!

Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:42:05 (PDT)

[Patty]

Good to hear Jack's back up to snuff, Natalie!

[MaryLea]

Yep, it's good to hear. We always worry when they aren't doing their best!

Mary

[pgcor]

Poor Jack! Next door to constantly barking dogs?! That would drive me nuts. Pip is a barker so once he starts I have to go outside and bring him in. Because he could bark all day long...

I don't know if you know this but Newman is a part pittie.

He's a sweet dog, but let me just say someone has to pay for others' mistakes.

I love him and I am glad he's with us, but he strikes fear in the hearts of everyone I pass while walking him. No one dares pet him and because of this I have to be careful as well. Isn't that a shame?

[Shellie]

I would pet him...but I only pet dogs after asking the owner. No owner, no petting. I don't care what breed...depends on the dog and how you approach. But it IS sad that you and pip have to pay for it with fear. :( Hugs!

[k9diabetes]

Newman is so handsome!

We used to have a dog down the street named Bodie who looked absolutely terrifying. He's a big red mix with wolf-colored eyes and a husky/shepherd look with long legs and no matter what he's doing, he always looks intense, intense, intense and mean. Just by being out front he used to terrify people who didn't know him.

I figured out he wasn't actually mean or scary because Chris, being blind, wasn't the least bit afraid of him. Turns out that's just how Bodie looks. He's actually a big ol' teddy bear.

For anyone with fearful and fear aggressive dogs, I love the concept of DINOS - Dogs In Need Of Space.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/DINOS-Dogs-in-Need-of-Space/251550661567160

DINOS promotes giving working, senior, reactive, and fearful dogs the space they need to live in the world and for others to always be courteous and obey leash laws, avoiding running up to unknown dogs, etc.

Natalie

[eyelostit]

Hi there Nat :)

My neighbor had a cute dog across the little valley from me, about 1/16 mile, dunno, he's my neighbor I really don't talk to him much and I don't care too other than when I get one of his UPS packages by mistake.

Anyway he had a male, he looked like a cross of a shepard and greyhound, the dog was kept in a kennel outside about 4 ft x5 ft kinda small for a dog like this. All the dog did was bark all day and all night, once he got loose and came over here, he was a great dog, he played and laid down for me, took one of my plastic flower pots and was throwing that all around, he was happy to run and not be locked up in that kennel he needed attention and he wasn't gonna get it. I put a lease on him and took him back to the neighor who was running his mower and naturally thanked me, the dog got loose again and my other neighbor asked me who's dog it was, so now he takes the dog back.

Now when I was looking for a dog after Niki died on the web, I seen this poor dog on the humane society website, I hope someone adopted him, I felt really bad, I couldn't take him, the dog was eager and would run to the AH if he got loose.

That rotten damn neighbor and they are the nice words for him %^*!#had a new dog over there in a months time, a smaller dog, the man is a complete AH, I guess the smaller dog suits him and can stay in the house not to mention this guy is a local small business man.

I avoid this person, he's not even a person in my book, he's goin thru the male change of life always rumming the engine of a car, or using a chain saw and its 10:00 pm at nite that don't bother me as much as it does the other neighbors, what a piece of work!:mad:
Just had to vent here ;)

Dolly & Angel Niki and the Pipster

[k9diabetes]

Just a quick update on Jack. Whatever causes his pain has been worse for the past couple of months. Today he hardly wanted to walk when I took him out, which isn't like him. He's also showing more signs of his weak pasterns, especailly in back. Not every day or all the time but intermittently and often.

A couple of weeks ago I took some photos of how he was standing on his back feet flatter than usual and sent them to the neurologist. He reviewed them with their orthopedic surgeon and suggested that we do an orthopedic consult since Jack's problems do not seem to be nerve related.

So we are signed up for an appointment in a couple of weeks.

I suspect that in the end his pain and limping problems will probably be soft tissue related, perhaps largely due to his pasterns. We noted this problem early on after we adopted him. And probably no fix but if we can ever truly KNOW what the cause of the pain is, we can better manage it. A couple of GP vets have mentioned laser therapy, for example. But we don't know what to aim the laser at.

Interestingly, also, this is the same time of year he had the acute back pain two years ago. I often wonder if it isn't at least partly related to a seasonal allergy that may generate some inflammation.

There doesn't seem to be much out there on weak pasterns. One show judge guy wrote an article some years ago and most of the other sites just reproduce it. Lots of theories (like most things!).

Risks tossed out as possibilities include a diet too high in protein while the bones and ligaments are growing and developing, too much calcium, raising puppies on smooth surfaces so the soft tissue doesn't get worked properly (Jack may have spent a large part of his young life on a kitchen floor). Some folks have managed to correct it in puppies if it's caught early and those kinds of things are changed.

It's sad to see such an energetic dog who is too uncomfortable to take a moderate walk... his brain really needs stimulation and other than giving him things to chew - he will only chew things he can consume, it's hard to entertain him when his movement is restricted plus not let him become a chubby-chub-chub, which also isn't good for his joints.

Kind of gloomy...

Natalie

[Brooke]

Poor Jack :( it must be really hard watching him in pain like that. I hope you guys can find out what's wrong, or like you said, at least manage the pain. Best wishes for the appointment.

[jesse girl]

its hard to watch our babies struggle you have worked so hard natalie to find the problem so you can figure out a possible procedure that might help

is swimming something jack can do removing gravity from the equation might release some of that energy with less discomfort

hope jack feels better and positive healing thoughts so jack can have some fun with less discomfort

[MaryLea]

I know it's hard watching them when you know they don't feel well. If only they could talk! ;)

You have done so much for Jack. Hope you find out something you can help him with this time, too.

Mary

[Patty]

Really, really hoping the ortho consult sheds some light on things Natalie.

[SandyL]

Oh Natlie, it is hard when you can't make your babies feel better NOW.... Not later! Hopefully you'll get some reliable info from the orthopedist.

We're currently getting the runaround from our vet for our other baby Heidi. She's having hind end and leg weakness.....never seen a dog sit like she does, it's actually weird looking:confused: vwho are you taking jack to?

Sandy

[Judi]

hope you get some answers and help Natalie. nothing can ever be easy can it?

[k9diabetes]

Aw Sandy, sorry to hear about Heidi's problems. Can you describe what she's doing?

We debated what orthopedist to see. There probably are some good ones around here, but the neurologist is in Rohnert Park and if we go to their orthopedist, they will have all of Jack's records and previous workup and the neurologist's firsthand experience with the diagnostics.

Plus, in their orthopedist's favor, he didn't go to the local vet school... and he has a border collie of his own.

So we are starting with the orthopedist in Rohnert Park and will see how it goes. They are a large specialty clinic so have IMs and neurologists and surgeons on staff.

I've heard really good things about a guy in Mill Valley as well.

The neurologist felt from the beginning that the type and location of Jack's limping and apparent signs of pain did not make sense as coming from the two bad discs we know he has. So I think everyone is leaning towards it being a soft tissue problem.

I actually need to find a new GP vet. There's only one at our current clinic that works very well for me and he's as afraid of Jack as Jack is afraid of him. I tried one last year and it didn't work out at all. So I need to get back to that task as well. We had a really great ER vet when Jack had the limber tail problem - wish she was in general practice.

Natalie

[SandyL]

Aw Sandy, sorry to hear about Heidi's problems. Can you describe what she's doing?



You are definitely an angel going all the way up to Santa Rosa!! Totally understand why... But I doubt if I could get the kind of time off that I'd need :(

She is having the typical problem with getting up from a lying position.... Totally uses all her strength with her front legs. Doesn't sit like a normal dog... She will either sit with both legs spread outwards (really wide) or sits cocked to the side with the other leg stretched outward. I really feel its her hips but in a split second if she hears the mailman, she's out the back door and RUNNING the fence line! :eek:

First vet... Out of the 30 they have there lol... Very conservative, felt Heidi had pulled something so just a 500mg buffern. 2nd opinion we got Tramadol. Both felt that the problem was due to the large area of laminate and lack of carpeting we have in the house. Said they've been seeing alot of this with large dogs.. So now I have a million throw rugs and runners and she literally will jumb from to rug to rug

You can really poke and prod and she NEVER shows signs of pain ANYWHERE! It's like when we go to the doctor for something and the morning of the appt it's gone:rolleyes:

If you hear of anyone decent in the area , that didn't go to our local vet school lol, please let me know. I'm sure I'm going to have to do something

Sandy

[k9diabetes]

Well, that seals our flooring decision! Glad you mentioned the concerns about the laminate.

We have been back and forth for months - tile vs. laminate vs hardwood vs. carpet - and in the end we decided that Jack would be a far happier dog with carpet. If we went with any of the others, we would have to have area rugs all over the place, which kind of defeats the purpose of a different kind of floor and would break up our great room floor plan visually into a bunch of blocks.

Having heard the concerns about Heidi and the floor, sounds like carpet is the right decision.

We are fortunate that I work from home and my husband's weekends are Sunday, Monday, Tuesday so we can make vet appts early in the week without a scheduling problem.

Our neighbors very overweight dog is limping recently. And sounds like they are having a similar problem with her. It seemed odd to me that this marked limping she has suddenly showed up and makes me wonder if she doesn't actually have some kind of an injury plus arthritis in the background. She's 12 so arthritis is likely but her behavior looks more like an injury to me.

The ER vet we use is a specialty clinic on Greenhaven so not far from you. Unfortunately, I don't know most of the specialists there any more as it changed hands last year. But it generally has a much friendlier atmosphere than VCA Referral Center in Sacramento.

Natalie

[buddingartist]

I just caught up with your thread Natalie.

So sorry that Jack's problems are back. I hope you finally get some answers as to what causes this problem. He is so young and I am sure it is disheartening to watch such a young dog go through this. Yep, if only they could talk:(

Good luck and extra hug for Jack

Louise

[SandyL]

Haha anywhere would be friendlier than VCA !! There are a few private vets around here so I guess I should get off my butt before it gets worse and make some calls!!

We originally got the laminat and tile BECAUSE of all our animals!! Figured it would be easier to keep clean and free of hair due to the kids allergies. Accidents are a breeze to clean up....Was REALLY a life saver before tig was diagnosed and peeing all over the place for a couple of days! But it's really hard on their legs and hips. A couple of years ago, Tiggy jumped off our bed and her nail hit the floor just right and rammed straight into the paw :eek: Stik with the carpet!! Next time, I'll probably go half and half :(

Sandy