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k9diabetes
10-14-2008, 08:44 AM
I never thought I would do this so soon... Please say hello to Jack!

http://www.randomfierce.com/canines/jack200810.jpg

This is his official SPCA picture. Jeff took a couple last night but I haven't had a chance to pull those or take my own.

Jack is about a year old and has a LOT of energy (did I mention that he's very excited and energetic?!?!? Did I? Huh? Wanna play? I'm bored!). We met him last night and brought him straight home. Theory is border collie mixed with possibly lab - he's got big lab feet and labrador fur. He hasn't had much training... knows Sit and gets the basic idea of Down but thinks leash walks are sled races.

So far the cats are NOT happy. He's way more excitable than the stray we had here a few weeks ago and he obsesses on the cats and chased Katie, who has taken a "best defense is a good offense" approach from the moment he walked in the door.

Carpet shampooer already put to serious use this morning... bland diet for him until his bowels settle down some.

Oh lordy, what have we done?!?!?!?

He's really cute and I think he will be a lot of fun when we get him and the cats on better terms. Right now, everything is just plain complicated....

We just got to the point where I realized how much I not only missed Chris desperately but missed DOG IN MY LIFE desperately. If nothing else, this will keep me very focused!

Natalie

We Hope
10-14-2008, 09:04 AM
Heard that Katie was reading the "For Rent" and "Free to a Good Home" classifieds this morning! :) They'll all calm down and Jack will get settled in.

Toodles was about his age and of about the same frame of mind when I brought him home. He's calmed down quite a bit since then--Jack will do that too once everything isn't so "new".

Even though I thought everything was out of reach, somehow Toodles started working on the phone cord. He didn't get the internet cables, so I could use that part of the phone fine--just couldn't make or take calls until I went out and got a new handset replacement cord. :D

Congratulations to you and Jeff, and of course to Jack, who's found a wonderful forever home!

Kathy

k9diabetes
10-14-2008, 11:35 AM
If he doesn't chew a cat, I'll be happy! It's a zoo here right now...

We Hope
10-14-2008, 11:39 AM
You know Katie has that black belt in karate! :D

Kathy

Cara's Mom
10-14-2008, 12:28 PM
Natalie! He is soooooooo cute!! Congratulations to you and Jack, who has picked the best Mom in the world:D:D

Jody
10-14-2008, 02:48 PM
Hmmm.......well Jack has just won the lottery probably due to his wonderful black and white coloring. ;) Congrats to all of you. Sorry is all I can say to the cats - I'm sure it's a bit shocking to go from Chris to Jack, but in time he will settle down....hopefully!

A border collie mix....whew....better get your walking shoes out Natalie. Perhaps a halti collar would do wonders with the pulling?

Sure you don't want to get a playmate for him? He'd get out all of his energy on another dog! (instigator, aren't I???) LOL But with that breed, I know they have to be busy, 22-7!

Keep us updated - looking forward to hearing his shenanigans! :eek: Jody

BestBuddy
10-14-2008, 07:13 PM
Wow Natalie,
Congratulations on the new arrival. He looks like he will keep you on your toes. I totally understand the need for canine companionship, know I could never be petless for long.
Jenny & Buddy

k9diabetes
10-14-2008, 09:04 PM
We survived our first 24 hours... Gus got his turn to be chased right after I posted that first message so there was much tighter supervision for the rest of the day.

Jack spent some time in his kennel this afternoon so the cats could enjoy some freedom of movement and Jack did really well in it, napping nicely, since it was right next to my desk. Sometime tomorrow - gates to divide up the house a bit until they can all get along.

He had a quick once over at the vet this afternoon - weighs 48 pounds but probably should weigh more like 55 - and seems generally fit. We will watch him to make sure the diarrhea clears up and I'm going to try to put some weight on him too. He had cottage cheese only today, will do same tomorrow. And then I'm planning to set the alarm tonight and let him out a few times since I don't think he knows how to signal his need to go out.

He bounced around a lot while in rescue, staying in various places. I can tell that he's not sure yet that this is a forever home. But he generally seems happy. He's asleep behind my chair right now.

Got him a Gentle Leader setup while at the vet and had a much more successful walk this evening. He doesn't particularly like it but I'm hoping he will get used to it cuz it really did the job -- No pulling, just lots of pirouettes! :) While on a walk, there are enough distractions that he doesn't fight it too much. Stop too long and he tries to get rid of it.

I haven't had a dog of this age in 13 and a half years... I've got a lot of studying to do!

Natalie

k9diabetes
10-15-2008, 11:48 AM
Dry, carpet-shampooer-free night. Yay! Long walk this morning with his gentle leader collar. Yay! Trip for kitty gates this afternoon.

k9diabetes
10-15-2008, 12:29 PM
http://www.randomfierce.com/canines/jackpublic01.jpg

gpgscott
10-15-2008, 12:38 PM
Very good news Natalie, we did similar recently and things are smoothing out nicely.

Hugs to you and Jack.

Scott

We Hope
10-15-2008, 01:07 PM
Natalie,

That face says it all--"Me doo-doo in the house? NEVER!" :)

Kathy

rhodesian46
10-15-2008, 02:07 PM
Natalie,
First if I must say he is a handsome boy!!! If you need any pointers in introducing animals to each other call me. I have a flippin zoo here BTW the new found cat is roaming free in the house now They all love each other I am happy that you got another dog. It will help with your healing! Pebbles sends a flirtacious wink to Jack:D:D:D:D

gpgscott
10-15-2008, 02:52 PM
Hi Natalie,

Don't know what a gentle leader is but we have had a simialar situation with Talos a one year old resue with no collar/leash experience and are doing well with a no pull harness. When you correct the dog the straps under the forearms pull up and it works real good. He also did a wonderful pirouette on an ordinary collar and leash.

Scott

Dollydog
10-15-2008, 08:08 PM
Hi Natalie,
Just saw this thread...what awesome news!! I would miss having a dog too. And I'm going to enjoy hearing about your new adventures with Jack.
Big hugs for your new baby!
Jo-Ann & Lady :)

eyelostit
10-16-2008, 10:12 PM
Ah Nat he's got that Niki look in his eyes if he's anything like her with the Border Collie in him, he'll soon be in charge, When i got Niki at 1 yr old she would be walking around with a huge log in her mouth playing with it, it must of been 3 ft long and at least 3 in wide, I could not get over it, and i could have her sit and throw the ball up in the air her way and she's just reach up and catch it. I'm sure he'll be really protective of you and hubby and will come around to even protect the cats if he has too being he will be in charge. I can't wait till you tell me how he talks back to you when he is mad, that certain lite cry bark, rrrrrr bark, rrrrr bark, where were you mummy!

k9diabetes
10-16-2008, 10:31 PM
He's kind of leggy. I'm thinking there might be a runner in him too. Will have to wait a while til we catch up on all the new-dog bills but eventually maybe we will do a DNA test on him, just cuz it's fun to see what we can find out. I think there's more than lab/border collie in there.

We have laughed a LOT in the past 72 hours. He's really fun to have around.

Though finally we tired him out. He's been snoozing at my feet for the past hour or more.

eyelostit
10-16-2008, 10:33 PM
I know what you mean by leggy, they have that agility, does he have dew claws?

Denise
10-17-2008, 05:35 AM
I'm so happy to read this! Congrats Jack, you got a great home!!!

When I got Lexi and Livi they thought their name was "No" and/or "Leave The Cats Alone!" Since getting Lily, Lex thinks her name is "Be Nice". LOL

I was going to mention baby gates. Baby gates can save the world!!! It's good to let the cats come to the part of the house Jack is in on their own terms and when they feel like dealing with him.

I bet you are hearing lots of little feet right now. I can picture his antics!

I picture him running circles and then bouncing off the couch. I'd hate to be an old cat in that situation too! :D My cats have the basement where they know they can escape the dogs and we have a gate between the dining room and kitchen that has been there for 5 years now. If I am in the living room then all the dogs have to be on that side with me. The cats have learned that when they hear "in the house everybody" that they can come upstairs and be in the kitchen or on the sunporch.

He should be very smart Nat! I bought a doggie doorbell but never got any of mine to figure that out. You can also try hanging a bell on the door that you use to let him out, he will associate that soound with that door and maybe pick up on making the bell ring to alert you?

I've also never had just one dog to concentrate on. It would be fun to work with just one at a time.

It's good he was good in his crate. I think that's good for any dog, no matter their size, to accept some time crated and be calm.

Good luck and have fun!!!

CarolW
10-17-2008, 07:10 AM
Natalie - I'm SO GLAD you got another dog. I cannot survive, myself, without having at least one dog in my life. (Denise, I read Lily's escapades - lovely!) And Natalie, that's a goodly handful of dog you got there! Haha! Adolescent, possibly with some Border Collie; ha!

For any of you who adore dogs - that means absolutely EVERYBODY here - I have a suggestion. I've put many, many years into the study of dog-behavior and training. And I find that one trainer in particular has led the way to better knowledge of dogs, though she also drew on the work of the more careful, current ethologists; however, she also used her own lifelong talents, experience and meticulousness - and miles and miles of videotape - to study how dogs talk to each other, and to any other living creature.

This woman is Turid Rugaas, of Norway. She wrote a few little books that have the very essences in them concerning dogs and their body language and behavior. She ALSO developed rather simple techniques for teaching dogs, all the while communicating and making use of how dogs talk among themselves and to us, their humans. She works with and teaches dogs based entirely on who the dogs actually are. That is the salient secret of her success with dogs.

I just changed my signature to link to a page that lists Turid's works in English. I recommend them highly. If you can only get two, do get the book on calming signals, and the accompanying DVD (or video) - or ask your local library to get them. But the other books are also of unending and great value; they help you learn a lot more about dog-signals and behavior, which in turn helps you make decisions from moment to moment, and also, helps you help a new dog adapt to your family.

There are a lot of email lists (mostly Yahoo Groups) about dog-training. The one I like the very best of all of them is dedicated to over-reactive dogs; however, it also has excellent information for any dog. You can find that one here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pos-4-ReactiveDogs/

I'd love to see any of you there along with me, though usually, I'm too busy to post, but sometimes I do, at least for a short stretch. If you'd care to join me there, I would just love that! When you apply, you may use my name if you like (Carol Whitney).

You don't have to download mail; you can set yourself to "No Mail," and read on the web. (I prefer to download mail, which indicates how much I treasure THIS forum - where everything is online!)

Fri, 17 Oct 2008 07:10:39

bowens2
10-17-2008, 07:31 AM
He is soo cute Natalie!

I have been looking on the website www.dogsindanger.com but it has been our busy season (3 more days then I am closed for the season - I still work but I don't have 40 employees to deal with. I only have 2 full time employees besides my husband and myself.) If I do get a new dog it will be after December when we get back from the convention.

I really want my daughter's dog Dahli but she won't give her up. Besides there is already such a tight bond there that Dahli would be devistated. But she is such a cool dog and so loveable.

I do have a new stray cat that one of my employees begged me to take in. I thought I could find her a home but she was pretty mangy and not very pretty but she is looking better and as sweet as can be. She must have been an indoor cat. She won't even let you take her near the door and never goes out when the door of the office is propped open.

k9diabetes
10-18-2008, 10:00 AM
It's so overwhelming to look. We did have a few criteria, which made it easier. We knew we didn't want a baby puppy and, as much as we'd like to help a senior, we just weren't ready to get a dog we knew would not be around for very long. Too soon after Chris for that. Someday we hope to provide a senior with a home.

A couple of years ago Jeff saw a dog on a cover of a magazine... Bark maybe... who looks a lot like Jack. He asked me to scan it for him so he could put it on his computer. So there was something about the border collie look that appealed to both of us.

I can also see shades of Chris' expressions in that picture of Jack...

There were other dogs available at the same time, though they actually did not have many medium to large dogs on their adoption page (and even fewer that could be adopted to a home with cats) that night. But we both focused on Jack right away.

Jack likes to sleep with some part of his body on top of a foot. Right now he's under my desk with his chin on my foot after a walk this morning.

Betty, I was laughing about how you'd really like to have Dahli!! :) We felt like that about Hank, the stray we had for a few days a couple of years ago. I wanted so badly to keep that dog! But we couldn't do it. Chris would have been miserable. After the lost boy we had here a couple of weeks ago, I was lamenting that we always seem to wind up having to give up the sweet animals we find. Pout, whine, feel sorry for myself... but Jack is extremely sweet and we got to choose him!

Hope you can find just the right one to add to your household Betty. He or she would be very lucky to wind up with you.

How is Monk?

Natalie

eyelostit
10-19-2008, 11:16 AM
Gosh Niki does the same thing, always has to have her paw on my foot, she's done this since I brought her home, my husband had noticed it. It's most of the time her paw, but sometimes her head with her baby toy.

Now lets see if when you are sitting next to him he takes his head and puts it under your elbow and throws you arm around his neck!! Like your arm is a toy. lol:)

If i think of it I'll post the pic of it

k9diabetes
10-19-2008, 03:39 PM
Dolly, I'd love to see pictures!!

Today, we took Jack to a dog park in the city where the SPCA he came from is located. A woman stood up, gave him a long look, and came over and said "Is this Bo, now Jack?" She had pulled Jack as part of the SPCA from his previous home!!! And she had gotten a copy of the email update I sent to the SPCA so knew about his name change.

So we got a fuller story about his history. Including that he was being terrorized by a pomeranian in that home and was so frightened of dogs when the SPCA first took him in (his owner was listing him on Craig's List) that he was actually dog aggressive in defense. I'd never have guessed that seeing him now. They did a great job of calming him down and he played well. One female bully breed was a little pushy and he did eventually get annoyed with her. His response was to continue to poke at and try to dominate her, though she outweighed him at least 50% and could just give him a shove and be done with him.

This information has also helped explain his reaction to cats. When they get aggressive, he gets very agitated.

The Gentle Leader harness is working wonders. He really hated the headcollar version and it was very hard on his nose. But the harness works perfectly and he's been on several long walks with it.

Signed up for Basic Obedience class starting at the beginning of November. I think he will enjoy it. If he does, we are considering taking him to an agility class as he's leggy and very very fast and I think he'd like the mental challenge.

Jody
10-19-2008, 04:30 PM
Hey Natalie - I was so looking for an update on Jack! Isn't it nice to get a background on him? I am so glad to hear that he is fitting in well - how are the kitties fairing? Got gates? :D Jody

Glenda12
10-19-2008, 07:27 PM
Natalie, he is adorable. He has such a gentle look about him. Albeit he's full of energy, I'm sure that he will do little things that will remind you of Chris and make you smile again.

Hopefully the cat's will adjust to the "chase the cat" games. TJ still does it every morning, but I think Smokey looks forward to it.

((Hugs)) to the new addition Jack.

CarolW
10-20-2008, 01:30 PM
....
Signed up for Basic Obedience class starting at the beginning of November.

Natalie - before you actually take Jack into a class, please watch one or more classes given by your trainer. If corrections are used (jerking on leashes, scolding the dog) - I'd ask for a refund, and find another trainer. These days, the "positive trainers" have developed punishment-free training methods, and those work best with ANY dog, without risking emotional damage to the dog.

If you're in a fairly well-populated area there is probably more than one good trainer somewhere not too far away from you.

Here's a lead to punishment-free training; you'll find others as well on my web site; many are linked to from the following page:

http://www.coherentdog.org/nopunish.php

Jack is SO GORGEOUS, and I just loved it that you were able to learn more of his history, Natalie. After being here something over a month, I know for absolute certain that Jack now has only the very best of homes - and DogMums! He is a wonderful tribute to Chris's memory.

Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:28:54

k9diabetes
10-20-2008, 05:02 PM
Hi Carol,

It's a positive training only class put on by the SPCA. Just five people per class too. And we have an orientation before bringing the dogs.

Natalie

eyelostit
10-20-2008, 05:11 PM
He'll love the agility class, you will be so proud !!:cool:

ladysmom06
10-22-2008, 09:58 AM
Natalie,

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!! He is so adorable - I love that face. So happy for you. Hugs to all of you.

Luv,
Lynne and Lady

k9diabetes
10-26-2008, 05:24 PM
We are thinking more and more that Jack could have greyhound or whippet in him. So we're going to go for the DNA test and see if we can find out. He's as tall as Chris but has a much leaner frame, especially in the waist and hips and is thin around the ribs, plus has a very long tail. Though taller than Chris, he weighs 10 pounds less.

So we will... I hope... find out. I figure it's worth the investment to know if we have a greyhound temperament or a border collie temperament.

From: http://www.greyhound-data.com

http://www.greyhound-data.com/greyhound/1382271/525/Greyhound_Active_X.jpg Active X

This is a pedigreed greyhound who looks just like Jack, including the pose!

AlisonandMia
10-26-2008, 07:49 PM
How is the whole Jack-and-the-kitties thing going? If he does have greyhound in him then a tendency to be super excited by "small furries" is going to be even stronger than other dogs, you'd think. You might find this interesting: http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1403

If he does have greyhound or a similar breeding in his background he will likely have unusually heavy muscling around his thighs and gaskins. Should be dynamite at flyball!

Alison

k9diabetes
10-27-2008, 08:38 PM
He chased a squirrel up a tree at the dog park this weekend and it took him a good fifteen minutes to give up on catching him... so yeah, he definitely likes chasing small furries.

I share my office with a kennel for one cat, Gus, so Jack and Gus have spent a lot of time in the same room and as long as Gus is calm Jack is calm. Katie, however, is unable so far to be calm in Jack's presence and he returns the favor.

Jack is very bright and I'm pretty sure we can teach him to leave them alone. He already sits very politely for his food and waits to be released to go to his bowl even though he's really really hungry.

He's also been going berserk when the three Jack Russells next door are out. They go nuts and he... returns the favor. I take all this as a sign that he's starting to consider this his home but will be glad when we get to a point where there is less supervision of all things furry required! :)

AlisonandMia
10-27-2008, 09:12 PM
My Zac is very like this - if the other animal is calm he is but oh dear! if the other guy goes off his head Zac joins the party and meets aggression with aggression or silliness with silliness or whatever. He very much takes his cue from others - easily lead I think its called!:p:rolleyes: Could be immaturity too - here's hoping..........

Alison

k9diabetes
10-28-2008, 04:38 PM
Two peas in a pod it sounds like. Jack is the same - he responds to aggression with aggression. Not extreme but with the cats we just can't take any chances with things getting out of control. Katie spent some time visible to him on the other side of a gate and he was pretty good about ignoring her the whole time she was calm.

I have no doubt we will get there eventually. Jack is really a smart guy and he's pretty good and learning to leave things he's told to leave.

Natalie

eyelostit
10-28-2008, 11:58 PM
nat, does he have dew claws?

k9diabetes
10-29-2008, 08:03 AM
He doesn't. I definitely think he's gonna come back as some kind of sight hound, at least partly. Got the DNA test kit yesterday and it's going back in the mail today.

Glenda12
10-29-2008, 06:48 PM
Natalie,

I remember way back on the other board, there was some info on the DNA testing. Can you possible send me something on that. I am wondering if they do that here in Canada. Would love to get the two goobers done to see exactly how much husky they have in them.

((Hugs)) to the new boy.

k9diabetes
10-29-2008, 10:02 PM
Hi Glenda,

I'll email you the following links too. We had both of these tests done on Chris, who turned out to be such a mixed up mutt they couldn't tell us anything about him!! But I've heard good reviews about both and know of dogs who did get results back.

Since the Heritage Breed test covers all the breeds we think are likely - border collie, greyhound, whippet, Italian greyhound - and requires just a cheek swab rather than a blood test, we are going with it with Jack.

Should be able to do it in Canada - they mail you a cheek brush that you use yourself to collect the cheek cells and then just mail it back.

Canine Heritage Breed Test (cheek swab)
This link takes you to the list of breeds that are covered:
http://www.canineheritage.com/breeds.php.

Mars Wisdom MX Panel (blood test - fairly large sample)
Vet must carry this test - we had to take Chris to a different vet hospital for this blood draw as our vet didn't do it.
http://www.whatsmydog.com/.


Also Denise sent me some information on an inexpensive one - I'm not familiar with this one -
"Who's Your Daddy?" DNA Breed Identification Kit
http://www.jefferspet.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=0&mscssid=6PRFE1KWGLPW9M71UFNBX2TMM81W0RE6&pf_id=0032028&cmkw=dna%20AND%20test
(If it comes up as page expired, just put DNA test in the Search space)

Jody
10-31-2008, 03:43 PM
I wish you lots of luck with Jack and the cats! ;) We dog sat last weekend for a young australian shepherd and boy did he want our cat!! We are also fostering a kitten and we kept him well protected as well. I'm sure that it was just the chase that he wanted, but again, I just wasn't sure what he would do. Sparky's family has a cat and he has scars on his face from it. It doesn't faze him - he just keeps going back for more! :eek:Why they wanted an aussie is beyond me - boy did that bugger have ENERGY! I did get lots of exercise last weekend, enjoyed our walks! But.....that's it! Back home he went!

It will be interesting to see what the results are on Jack's bloodline! How neat that we can do this at home! Jody

k9diabetes
10-31-2008, 05:50 PM
We are definitely making slow progress. Last night Jack stayed on one side of a gate that had pretty big spaces in it while I was on the other side with Katie. He was able to ignore her and consequently she was able to ignore him and get some attention. Jack gets the basic concept of Leave It and he doesn't try to go through or over the gates.

But we still keep them a bit more securely separated when no one is closely supervising things. Like now, there are two gates between Jack and Katie and the first one has a mesh instead of just vertical slats. They are ignoring each other, which is progress!

Natalie

k9diabetes
11-02-2008, 08:31 PM
Jack does not like pottying in the rain!! So Friday night through Saturday night as it poured steadily all day long was a pain in the neck! But finally today the skies cleared and his potty routine went well.

He seems to be pretty predictable about times he wants to poop - that's been the major challenge. He will pretty much pee when asked if taken outside. I'm starting to know when he's likely to have to go.

Am pondering what to use as a signal. Since he ran right through the screen door twice last week... ;) perhaps a decal at eye level that he has to touch his nose to!

Tuesday is our first obedience class.

eyelostit
11-03-2008, 12:46 AM
Niki hates to go in the rain also, so did Chief, but i had to use the "Now get going" with them or walk part outside with them, then they'd do their thing and i wait by the door.:rolleyes: What we do for the babies.

Jody
11-03-2008, 01:43 PM
Taffy too - did not like to get her 'tootsies' wet! I would say: Hurry up......and off she'd go, and right back in! Good luck with the obedience class - they were always so much fun for us! Jody

BestBuddy
11-03-2008, 02:03 PM
I always thought that I would try to train my next dog with a string of bells (maybe little cat bells) hung near the door so that it would be a visual and an audible signal.
Jenny & Buddy
PS Just reminded me of a funny. I had to rush a dog named Bill to the vet after he ate a cats bell from a collar. The vet was lecturing me about leaving a collar around for him to play with and didn't stop until I told him the collar was actually on a cat at the time. The cat was fine but the collar didn't survive.

k9diabetes
11-03-2008, 04:15 PM
Jenny!! LOL

Denise
11-05-2008, 07:28 AM
I bought a doggy door bell when Lex and Liv were pups but they weren't smart enough (or maybe it was me not smart enough) to get them to use it. I'd be happy to send it to you! It's like a wireless door bell, the part that hey are supposed to lear to step on looks like a big paw and you can set it to ring or bark. Let me know! It's not doing me any good!

My sister did the bells on the door knob.

k9diabetes
11-06-2008, 07:30 PM
Hey Denise,

I'd love to try your doggie doorbell. Let me know if you want me to reimburse you for it.

We did well at obedience class. Sitting was easy because Jack sat whether I asked him to or not! The hard ones for him will be "Attention" and polite leash walking. The other stuff I think he'll breeze through. He already knows Down, Sit, Wait, Leave It... performance isn't entirely consistent yet but he understands what he's *supposed to do.

I think actually I'm going to bring less exciting treats to the next class. He's pretty motivated anyway and if the treats are too exciting he can't think of anything else.

We are getting the hang of his bathroom habits too. No accidents recently. I restrict him to a small enough part of the house that he can't go far enough away to sneak off and relieve himself while inside.

All in all, with less rain, things are going well.

eyelostit
11-06-2008, 08:22 PM
Sounds like he's gonna be great, glad things are going well:)

Denise
11-21-2008, 04:59 AM
Accckkk! I'm sorry I didn't check back so didn't see you wwanted to try the doorbell. I will try and get it in the mail today, Monday at the latest!


Denise

eyelostit
11-27-2008, 05:50 AM
So how is Jack these days? Does he get some Thanksgiving Dinner?:)

rhodesian46
11-27-2008, 12:56 PM
Hi Natalie,
HAppy Thanksgiving Am having problems with 2 of my dogs chasing Cleo and Sabrina THey don't chase Yoda the 3 rd cat though. One of my clients take their dog to a trainer. He said to fill a spray bottle of water and Jasmine and when the digs go near the cat you tell them No. He says you should not praise if they listen as this is behavior that is unacceptable.I went to Wally Mart yesterday and bought 3 bottles One in each room I filled with just water She said maybe add a tab bit of vinegar if you don't have jasmine. THey may smell like a salad but oh well So I tried it out with just water Harley the lab pitt went on the chase I squirted I think he was more shocked He did listen I am a bit confused as to why you wouldn't praise. What would the dog whisperer do?
Anyway just a suggestion.

k9diabetes
11-28-2008, 11:25 PM
We had a nice quiet Thanksgiving. No turkey but Jack shared our homemade Mac n Cheese - it's an unusual recipe with a sauce that's more cream than cheese, chunks of cheese blended in, and a little dijon mustard... really yummy!

And of course Jack had a little, as well as a little whipped cream that went with our pie.

We have been taking him to the river and for hammies... sometimes it's hard cuz we miss Chris so much. But Jack is loving it and he gets a chance to run. We have a 30 foot lead we put him on so he can explore without wandering too far.

And he and Gus actually shared the living room for a while today with no barriers between them. This morning, Jack went out to the chair where Gus was napping and touched him on the nose. I think Gus was too startled and yet only half awake to react but it was good for both of them to see they could get along. Katie's resisting but Jack is getting much better at ignoring the hissing and spitting she throws at him through the gate. Now, he's directing his energy to the Jack Russell terriers next door and going absolutely berserk if they let out so much as a peep. He's starting to think I'm a real party pooper!!

We taught him to "say please" which is touching a sticky note on the patio door with his nose. As soon as he does that, we tell him to "go potty" and let him out. He's starting to get that he can ask to go out by touching the sticky note... now, whether it's cuz he has to potty - well, that's another question!

He learns SO fast. Teaching him to "say please" took about 6 repetitions.

Tried to bath him today... NO WAY! I suspect the previous owner threw him in the tub after leaving him for hours in the kitchen to poop and pee on the linoleum. He was so anxious and scared that we "reduced" to a sponge bath! Hopefully eventually he will trust us enough for a real bath. His fur is very water repellent so he doesn't need a lot of water to clean up.

Hope you ALL had a lovely Thanksgiving and have a great weekend. We are really enjoying the time to relax.

Natalie

eyelostit
11-30-2008, 03:53 AM
Sounds like they are all getting the hang of living together. Happy late thanksgiving.

k9diabetes
12-01-2008, 08:50 PM
Well, yesterday Gus and Jack shared a room but Jack got very excited about something or other, like dogs barking next door, and when he did he forgot about avoiding Gus and they had a little spat.

Nothing serious fortunately.

Afterward, Jack looked like a duck... you know how their feathers get pulled up and stick out funny? Well, he had these tiny little feathery things sticking out of his nose. I thought it was fur at first. But when I finally got a closer look at Mr. Wiggly's nose, I recognized the unmistakable arc of a cat claw. A very thin piece of Gus' claw was embedded in Jack's nose by the sharp end!!!

Even worse, the same scenario was repeated later in the day and I found another one embedded in his forehead?!?!?!?

I must say Jack wasn't terribly bothered by it. But Gus went back in his cage for the rest of the day! ;)

This morning, he, on his own, asked to go out by touching the sticky note on the patio door and when I dutifully let him out, thinking it was all a ploy, he went straight over and pooped. Sob... I'm so proud of my boy! ;)

Natalie

k9diabetes
12-01-2008, 08:51 PM
Accckkk! I'm sorry I didn't check back so didn't see you wwanted to try the doorbell. I will try and get it in the mail today, Monday at the latest!

Denise

LOL - not to worry! I wasn't stomping my foot with impatience! Nice to see you here - how's things with your clan?

Natalie

eyelostit
12-02-2008, 06:32 PM
LOL, the cat, I have a stray cat now she lives outside somewhere,, where she comes from I don't know, but I feed her every sundown and she is there, she is not human friendly, maybe by spring she'll trust me, I made a house for her on the porch and put little treats in it hoping the cat would go in it for shelter, I am not familair with cats, but this poor thing is hungry and her front paw goes backwards, but as time went on she seems to use it better to stand up on it when she is eating. I just hope to be able to get close to him/her.:)

k9diabetes
12-13-2008, 10:06 AM
Hi Dolly,

That's sweet of you to take care of this kitty. The ones who live on their own can be pretty cagey but she will no doubt trust you more and more as time goes on and the food supply keeps coming!

Natalie

k9diabetes
12-13-2008, 10:14 AM
Jack has officially graduated from Basic Obedience - including a little party at the end of the last class, complete with a gift (a rope/tennis ball tug toy) and treats. I absolutely LOVED the trainer in this class. She took such genuine delight in the dogs.

We had graduation on our minds as my stepdaughter is walking in commencement next week for her master's degree so I made Jack a mini mortarboard! LOL

He was so absorbed by all the goings on in class that he even let me put it on him and left it on his head! The trainers were cracking up. I used a catnip mouse for the tassle! Heh... it was pretty cute on him. I only have one halfway decent picture cuz at home he's too fidgety to leave it on.

We have made a little progress teaching Jack Pattycake, but he hates doing it! Not sure if I will torture him by continuing! He can do two pattycakes in a row before getting too frustrated!

We are discovering that he really likes riding around in the car. He still needs some physical exercise every day but the brain exercise of riding around watching everything around him has been really good for him. We also got a season pass to the parks that include the river and have taken him there three or four times already. There are about a billion squirrels there so he gets very excited to go there. They are so used to people and dogs that they don't run until we are quite close to them. And Jack will forever need a leash there!

Still waiting, rather impatiently, for the DNA results. It should be this month and I'm dyin' to know the answer!

Natalie

acushdogsmom
12-13-2008, 01:32 PM
We had graduation on our minds as my stepdaughter is walking in commencement next week for her master's degree so I made Jack a mini mortarboard! LOL

He was so absorbed by all the goings on in class that he even let me put it on him and left it on his head! The trainers were cracking up. I used a catnip mouse for the tassle! Heh... it was pretty cute on him. I only have one halfway decent picture cuz at home he's too fidgety to leave it on.So? Where's the picture? I wanna see that picture!!! :D :D :D

k9diabetes
12-13-2008, 02:34 PM
He let me put it on him one more time just now if I promised to never ever make him wear it again... This is actually the first pic we took a few days ago though. I still liked it the best.

http://www.k9diabetes.com/userimages/jackgrad1.jpg

That's Jeff restraining him from thrashing his grad hat!

BestBuddy
12-13-2008, 02:38 PM
Oh Natalie,
How cute. He is going to be one smart fellow and just for the record, pattycake always bored me too, couldn't see the sense in it.
Jenny & Buddy

k9diabetes
12-13-2008, 02:46 PM
Jenny - you always crack me up! I think you're right cuz Jack just thinks it's dumb!

eyelostit
12-17-2008, 07:09 PM
Nat, he is too cute !! What a lil baby, give him a hug for me.!!:)

k9diabetes
12-18-2008, 02:19 PM
This week he has a horrible looking track across the whole length of his nose after Gus got cranky when they were sharing a room and raked him big time. Jack didn't even yelp. I didn't realize for a few minutes that Gus had nailed him, til I looked at his face and saw the tracks with little drops of blood beading up.... :(.

He has been much more diligent since then about staying away from the cats... poor guy. I felt terrible.

Gus has been prickly lately - he wrapped his claws around my upper arm this afternoon.

But Jack got to go to the dog park and chase a smaller dog who was perfect for him. The other dog cared only about her ball and Jack treated the dog like she was a ball. Other dog eyes the ball, waits excitedly for it to fly and takes off after it. Jack eyes the dog, waits excitedly for her to fly and takes off after her. Exact same behavior only Jack was focused on the dog. She took off after the ball, Jack took off after her, everybody was happy and tired!

Still waiting for the DNA results... I'm getting most impatient!

Natalie

k9diabetes
12-31-2008, 03:00 PM
So last night my husband wasn't feeling well so was sleeping and I was trying to track down resources for Lucie... so Jack ate part of the rug in front of the front door to protest his abandonment. He's so quiet that it really doesn't work as an attention-getting device!

And the DNA test results are back....



wait



wait



wait



wait



wait



wait



wait...



He's a plain old border collie!! Nothing else mixed in at all!

Somehow, I'm vaguely disappointed by this! ;)

Natalie

BestBuddy
01-01-2009, 11:08 AM
Natalie,
So it looks like Jack is "normal". Regardless what breeds a dog has, his/her personality is what makes them who they are and that makes them special. Border Collie is a great breed so Jack has a good start but he will always be Jack.
Jenny & Buddy

k9diabetes
01-02-2009, 11:18 AM
New information about Jack - he does NOT like fireworks! Independence Day is definitely going to be a challenge.

k9diabetes
01-02-2009, 11:18 AM
I'm told Jack might be a McNab border collie.

eyelostit
01-02-2009, 11:13 PM
Bordie Collie !, all I can say is he will be great, obedient, great watch dog and will talk back to you, Niki has constantly wanted peted since she came to our house, Is Jack still keeping his paws on your foot? Niki likes to have a paw on someones foot. I'm waiting for when he talks back to you or when his water bowl gets down he starts clanging it around to tell you he wants water.

AlisonandMia
01-03-2009, 05:26 PM
New information about Jack - he does NOT like fireworks! Independence Day is definitely going to be a challenge.

My Zac doesn't like fireworks either - doesn't mind thunderstorms though - which is odd. When he was younger I did make an effort to make thunderstorms a "happy" thing by throwing treats around during storms so I think that may have helped. We got "caught" by some fireworks while out walking and that didn't help!:eek:

You can get DVD/CD's/MP3 files of sounds of thunderstorms and fireworks to help desensitize frightened animals (probably works on people too!). You start with it played very quietly and slowly increase the volume while associating it with good things.

A friend of mine has a BC who just loves thunderstorms and has to be securely shut inside because he wants to go out and "chase" the lightning! They live on top of a ridge.......

Alison

k9diabetes
01-04-2009, 01:09 PM
I think I might do desensitization not only on fireworks but on the terriers next door. It wouldn't be too difficult to record them barking and then play that in the house.

I think that will work better for him than the party approach, which we have been trying, but since this occurs when he's inside the house we can't get the stress/volume/stimulus down to a manageable level.

It didn't help that the fireworks were going off outside a large window with no cover of it - patio slider - and very close by. He could not only hear it but see the flashes. We did then put him in his crate where the sound was muffled and there was no visual, but he was pretty wound up by that point.

We have managed to desensitize him to some minor things he's afraid of, like pipes with a frost/UV cover. Those he just had to sniff and then he was fine. But the purple balloon down by the river the other day was too much for him to handle! Silly boy. He was scared spitless of it and wouldn't get close enough to sniff it even when I held it!

eyelostit
01-06-2009, 10:22 PM
you just made me think of the hot air balloons that used fly over, my dogs could not take it, I could not hear it at first, but they really hated that thing.:)

Bichon Mum
01-08-2009, 03:32 PM
Hello there Natalie

This is pretty late congrats (even for me :0)) but I was thinking of you and saw this post when I visited and wanted to congratulated you on your new member of your family.

He looks such a cutie, very handsome, and sounds a character!

Love Sharon, Zeno and Bobs xxxx

k9diabetes
01-10-2009, 10:18 PM
Sharon!!!!

How lovely to see you here!! That just made my day to see your name, along with Zeno and Bobs! :) :)

How is Mr. Zeno doing? And how are you?

Jack is definitely a handful and totally runs our lives.

Natalie

Bichon Mum
01-11-2009, 10:50 AM
Hi Natalie

Aww that was a nice hello from you!

Zeno doing good (touch wood - 3 years diabetic next month!) and Bobs OK - I think he is two tomorrow but must check.

For a minute I though you'd wrote "Jack ruins our lives" :0) Awww little man he sounds lovely - full of fun. When you have an older dog and then a younger one it is a bit of a shock, I know when we got Bobby it aged Zeno completely (he always looked like the younger one with Angela Charl). I like to see Chris's face in your profile, lovely fellow he was it's a crying shame they aren't with us longer.

Lovely to speak to you and I will try and not be so much a stranger, I'm a rubbish poster.

Give Jack a big cuddle from us.

Love to Jack, Sharon Zeno

k9diabetes
01-11-2009, 02:33 PM
LOL... there are days when "ruins" might be the more appropriate word! I'm so glad Zeno is well.

What a herder this boy has become. I can't believe how it's coming out in him the past month. Lately he can't stop herding pale yellow labradors!!

Shoot, I meant to drive him out to meet a sheep today after the dog park and forgot. Thought maybe if I showed him the real thing... although technically, I think the flock down the road are goats... he would figure out that pale yellow labs are not ovines!

rhodesian46
01-11-2009, 04:10 PM
JUst love that pic of Jack with his hat on. He looks pretty embarrassed!!! Poor boy!!! What mommies will do for a pic!!! Pebbles wasn't fond of fireworks either!! Once she heard the first pop days after she would go outside and immediately look up at the sky She wouldn't forget. I spend many a day telling her to go pee pee when all she wanted to do is run back inside. I hated the 4th of July because of this We didn't attempt to go camping on that holiday We always stayed home so that Pebbles could stay in and be less stressed. Kept "Kahlua" is scared of thunder Go figure The wimp stays up Moms but till the storm ends Jack is a handsome man.

AlisonandMia
01-11-2009, 05:12 PM
What a herder this boy has become. I can't believe how it's coming out in him the past month. Lately he can't stop herding pale yellow labradors!!

My Zac does this too - but he doesn't care if they are pale yellow or labradors - or probably even dogs. As long as they move they require herding his not particularly humble opinion. He's particularly fond of herding poodles and poodle X's - must look like sheep to him and they really excite him. Kinda annoys and confuses other dogs at times.:p Zac's herding style seems to involve a lot of very loud barking which doesn't help, either.:o Is Jack and "eye dog" like a lot of BC's? That would probably stress other dogs out too.

I knew of a dog (was actually the daughter of my husband's dog) that, when it was raining, would be out on the veranda herding frogs into gum boots! There are dogs (BC or Kelpies usually) that can herd a chicken into a large jam tin - poor chicken!

Alison

k9diabetes
01-11-2009, 07:36 PM
LMAO at the idea of herding frogs!!

Jack does some herding stuff with most dogs - nips at their necks or heels. But yellow labs are the ones he barks at. Stands in their face and barks like crazy. I read that McNabs bark when they herd.

I could definitely see a poodle... all that curly hair. I could see yellow labradors as sheared sheep...

Jack has only started to do the eye thing in the past month as well. Sometimes he stacks up behind a dog who is giving a ball the eye. Dog stares at ball, Jack stares at dog... as soon as the ball flies, the dog goes after the ball and Jack goes after the dog as if it were a ball.

But lately in the backyard he's been crouching and giving the eye to his tennis ball. He didn't do this at all when we first got him.

k9diabetes
01-11-2009, 07:37 PM
Alison, I'd love to see a picture of Zac.

Denise
01-14-2009, 05:56 AM
Just a border collie! Hhhrrrruuummmpphhh!!! LOL

My sister has 2 siblings, lab and border crosses and they have TONS of energy but have each other to run with.

I had a border when we lived in Utah. I love the breed and love to watch them herd and see their natural instincts.

How big is Jack? What does he weigh?

They are usually very smart and with your patience it's no wonder he graduated!!!

He's a lucky guy....except when a cat smacks him!

pgcor
01-16-2009, 10:34 AM
Hi Natalie:

This is my very first post to this board - but I wanted it to be. CONGRATULATIONS ON ADOPTING JACK!!!!!!!!!!!!! He's one lucky guy.

Pip is now 8, but I remember his first obedience class like it was yesterday. My husband took him, because Pip was HIS DOG! He came back home that night completely humiliated by a little 6-month old Min Pin that "crawled up it's own lead" and would not obey any command except spin, jump and drool.

He's been mine ever since and I love the little goof like crazy!!!!

Much, much happiness to you and Jack!

Pam

k9diabetes
01-16-2009, 03:26 PM
Hey Denise,

It's pretty rude, isn't it, to be a little disappointed that your dog is only ONE kind! I'm not used to this purebred thing!

Sue on the Cushings board had her dog tested and there were something like six different influences! I'll have to ask her which test she used.

Jack weighs about 50 pounds - I'm surprised it's not more as he's at least as tall as Chris, who weighed 60-65. But Jack's frame is much lighter and a lot of his height is in his legs. He's tall for a border collie. Kind of medium labrador size.

Although I have seen a handful of other short-coated border collies and many of them seem to be tall and leggy like Jack. He may not be a McNab as we met one the other day who, aside from a feathery tale, looks nearly identical to Jack but came from Romania or someplace so is not likely to be a McNab. When the two of them were running, I couldn't tell which was which. Once they stopped, I could see the differences in her markings and his but the body shape was really close.

He gets to be more of a herder all the time at the dog parks. Still need to take him out and see what he thinks of a real live sheep.

Natalie

k9diabetes
01-16-2009, 03:30 PM
Hi Pam!

I was excited to see your registration today! Thanks for the kind note about Jack. We are crazy about him, of course, even with his "issues." If only Jack would be as good at home as he was at obedience class!

Did you tell your husband not to feel bad? I'm pretty sure I couldn't handle a min pin!!

I wish now that Jeff and I would both have gone to the class. They enroll "per dog" so more than one human can attend and it would have been good for both of us to go through the class.

How is Pip doing? Hope you will start a thread about him here so we can get updates.

Natalie

k9diabetes
02-20-2009, 02:24 PM
Jack has discovered jack rabbits. And he is very very very excited about them. I really can't describe the sound he makes... he kind of shrieks and gurgles at the same time, and totally forgets about his hamburger patty from the magic window - now that's excited!

He's also quite abruptly decided tennis balls are cool and does the border collie thing at the park with them. You couldn't have paid him to pick up a tennis ball a month ago.

He and the cats are manageing to share the space for periods of time with no gates between them, which is making the humans in the house a lot happier. He is very good with them now. Does his best to avoid them. They are still a bit miffed and periodically remind him of his bad behavior early on. But we are making progress, thank goodness.

If only I could teach him to do number 2 on a leash. He just won't do it.... he got a really long walk the other day and he flat out refused. So we took a detour over to a nearby dog park and insta-performance... silly boy.

He's definitely settling in. Sleeps most of the night now on the bed, taking up more than his share of the space.

k9diabetes
03-19-2009, 09:42 PM
I am sitting here just cracking up... first there was my Google search the other day for thyroid and "equilibrium dialysis" that brought up four links, all of them my posts to various forums...

Tonight I put "Yolo County" and "dog parks" into Google and this was at the top of the list of links returned by Google! :D

http://www.yolospca.org/content/happy/success147.shtml

I didn't know his graduation had been immortalized! :)

Natalie

eyelostit
03-19-2009, 09:43 PM
Way to go Nat !!;)

BaileyBear
03-19-2009, 10:14 PM
Oh, he is just too stinking cute in his mortarboard! Congratulations on your graduation, Jack! :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/promecia/Congrats/341-1-graduation_dog_barking_md_clr.gif
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/promecia/Congrats/graddog.jpg)

CarolW
03-19-2009, 10:44 PM
Natalie - this was a lot of fun to read. I'm glad they put up your description! Maybe a bit surprised they didn't tell you!

Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:44:05 (PDT)

Margaret Boyle
03-20-2009, 06:43 AM
Oh, he is just too stinking cute in his mortarboard! Congratulations on your graduation, Jack! :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/promecia/Congrats/341-1-graduation_dog_barking_md_clr.gif
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/promecia/Congrats/graddog.jpg)

Hi Natalie,
Jack looks really cute (clever clever dog congratulations) on his graduation at training classes. He has got a good home :D

LOL

k9diabetes
03-25-2009, 10:18 AM
So we have a behaviorist coming to the house on Saturday to assess Jack's issues with the dogs in neighboring back yards. I want an expert to appraise the situation and suggest the best way to manage this as the combination of his seeming fear of the dogs next door and the fact that he won't poop on leash has made the bathroom routine quite challenging. If any of the neighboring dogs are out in their backyards when he goes out, he goes berserk.

He's also reactive to their barking from inside the house so it's not just visual cues.

In fact, he heard the terriers (the ones he most afraid of) from inside the SUV in the driveway the other day and lost it and it was difficult to get him into the house.

So we have lots of ideas from various sources - meeting the dogs, not meeting the dogs, blocking the visual, counterconditioning and desensitization (which is difficult since it occurs throughout the day while Jack is inside so we can't really control his distance from the stimulus), positive association, etc.

I want the behaviorist to see his reaction and the dogs involved and then suggest what she thinks will work best for Jack in this particular situation.

Our neighbors are all very nice people and most likely willing to help however they can, within the limits of their control over their dogs. The dogs on the east are extremely well trained so very manageable. The Jack Russells on the west, on the other hand, bark incessantly and probably have never been on a leash ever so they are not nearly so manageable by their owners. But Jack reacts to both.

So we will see how it goes.

If anyone is interested, Victoria Stillwell's site has a forum on training and behavior... http://www.victoriastilwell.com/phpBB2/index.php.

Also Sophia Yin at UC Davis has a behavior and training site with many videos on how to do some of the techniques. It is new... http://www.askdryin.com/

k9diabetes
04-24-2009, 10:03 AM
I have been so busy that I haven't had a chance to update on Jack... and I've been so busy largely because of Jack! :o

We really like the behaviorist and Jack has improved in some of the areas we have been working on but also has transferred some of the problem behavior to other areas. Plus we started using his meals as training treats and that threw off his poop routine so we have had some accidents in the house again. Sometimes I do feel like I can't win for losin' but somewhere down underneath it all I think we will get there.

I've also been concerned about Jack's health. He's estimated to be about 1.5 years old but his stamina is not all that great and his heat tolerance especially is very limited. Plus a half dozen times in the past couple of months his front leg has buckled under him when he was climbing in or out of a chair.

So he spent the whole day at the vet on Wednesday. They started with x-rays of his wrists and moved up the leg, pretty much x-raying all of his legs. The good news is that there's no obvious problem on the x-rays. Hips and elbows look great. The vet thinks the leg problem is a soft tissue injury with possibly overstretched or partially unattached ligament in the right foot between the paw and the dew pad.

Did full blood work and everything there looks okay. But on Sunday, after he spent an hour with very little activity on a patio on a warm day - about 90 degrees - but in the shade, he was so tired. He didn't even want to participate in the training and didn't care if he was going to get a treat. And he came home and flopped down as soon as he could and slept for 3 hours.

So we may be taking a look at the heart just to make sure there isn't a problem. He can be very energetic if it's cool but it doesn't last very long, which is kind of unusual for his breed. After 20 minutes at the dog park, he's generally done.

Yesterday I took him for a pretty mellow leash walk in temperatures that at most were 80 degrees and he was lagging behind me on the way home.

So I am very concerned about that.

I only have Chris to compare and Chris had heart problems from birth but I don't think Jack's heat tolerance is any better than Chris's... :(

I hope it's just his quirk and all is okay.

I'm getting ready now to take him out. Fortunately the weather has cooled so he will like it better.

Natalie

forscooter
04-24-2009, 06:44 PM
Oh Natalie...I am soooo behind!! I am so hoping that Jack is just having an "off" time of it and nothing more! After all you did for Chris, you surely deserve a break here....and I am going to add it to my never-ending list of gripes with the Big One if this turns out to be anything than something minor!

Are you sure it is heat intolerance, or could it be that the soft tissue injury could be just causing him to have the overall yuckies? Maybe he just can't keep up, or tolerate much, with that? Not that I wish that on him either but I'll take it over a heart issue....:(

Please keep us posted. Sending lots of positive thoughts for you both!!!
Beth and the crew

ladysmom06
04-25-2009, 07:04 AM
Hi Natalie,

So sorry that Jack is having problems. Praying it's nothing serious. Sending positive thoughts from our house to yours. Hugs.

k9diabetes
04-27-2009, 12:52 PM
Thanks Beth and Lynne,

I've been concerned about his stamina almost from day one when we adopted him back in October but the poor heat tolerance really stands out.

The foot injury does not seem to cause him much pain but who knows really? I believe the vet is going to review the x-rays with a radiologist and then he wants me to monitor Jack to see whether I think he's in pain.

Yesterday we had another dog class. The weather was much better, maybe 75 max. He did better than last time but still was pretty tired by the end of the class, losing interest in participating. And he looked tired when we got home. Again, not nearly as tired as last time but you could see it in his face.

I've noticed too at the dog park that he's looking for the shade even when the temperatures are very mild.

He does not seem stressed at class. We took him to one back in November too. And we don't do any strenuous activity there.

We will most likely do something - x-ray or ultrasound - in the next few weeks. I'm leaning toward going straight to ultrasound since it won't cost much more than x-rays but can tell us more. Our vet does his own ultrasounds, which is nice.

pgcor
04-27-2009, 01:04 PM
Hi Natalie - I'm hoping that Jack may be a little older than indicated? My Buddy was very heat sensitive as he got older and would lay on top of the air conditioner grate in the kitchen.

I hope it's nothing serious anyway. Will be watching....

Hugs, Pam

eyelostit
04-28-2009, 01:53 AM
I hope everything is OK with Jack.
Is he out in the yard alot? Did this just start to happen as the weather got warmer there? Or is it always warm there?
Just wondering, my dogs would tire out easily here but we get that humidity in July-Aug that just about makes us humans sick to the point we can't do anything except stay in A/C

k9diabetes
05-03-2009, 05:54 PM
We haven't really experienced heat until now so haven't seen the heat intolerance until recently. The lack of stamina has always been true with him.

At home, Jack's in the house probably 95% of the time. He doesn't have a concept of hanging out in the yard and causes trouble with the neighbor dogs when he is out there :eek: so we keep him inside mostly. He does go on a walk or to a dog park or both every day.

Margaret Boyle
05-04-2009, 05:20 AM
We haven't really experienced heat until now so haven't seen the heat intolerance until recently. The lack of stamina has always been true with him.

At home, Jack's in the house probably 95% of the time. He doesn't have a concept of hanging out in the yard and causes trouble with the neighbor dogs when he is out there :eek: so we keep him inside mostly. He does go on a walk or to a dog park or both every day.

Natalie,
Lucy is not good with heat if it does get very warm she will look for a shaded bit too lay down and usually wants to go indoors, she never ever has been good with the heat. So I do hope it is just heat intolerance with Jack as a lot of dogs do not like the sun. Lucy also flags in the heat (so when we do get good weather I do not take her too far) :)

lol

labblab
05-04-2009, 05:53 AM
Dear Natalie,

I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions to add, but I just wanted to tell you that I am so sorry to hear that you are having some worries about Jack. I am guessing that every one of us who has gone through the grueling (and sometimes heartbreaking :o) experience of caring for a dog with chronic problems says a little silent prayer on the day that they bring a new companion home...("please oh please may this little one lead a long and healthy life"). But of course, we love them just as much no matter what, and we marshall ourselves to do whatever needs to be done on their behalf.

I was just hoping that you'd be getting a break from any medical worries for a long, long time. And I'll continue to hope that these issues turn out to be only minor ones for Jack!

My best wishes to you all,
Marianne

ladysmom06
05-04-2009, 05:58 AM
Hi Nat,

He doesn't have a concept of hanging out in the yard and causes trouble with the neighbor dogs when he is out there :eek: so we keep him inside mostly.

Are they the JRT'S? ;)

k9diabetes
05-04-2009, 11:46 AM
Indeed! Noisy little devils. These three are cute as buttons but I don't think they have ever had so much as a leash on them. My neighbor said he tried taking the three of them to the dog park but they were like a little mafia mob hassling the other dogs!! ;)

Interestingly, our behaviorist, Sophia Yin, has an Australian cattle dog and... a JRT named Jonesy who she says is the most difficult dog she's ever trained! Met him at class the other day - he was boinging up and down for a squeeky toy, rising at least four feet, almost five feet of vertical lift!

Natalie

k9diabetes
05-04-2009, 11:51 AM
I'm hoping maybe he just runs hot... haven't moved to check the heart yet, although I may still do it just to settle the question. It's been raining here so heat hasn't been a problem recently.

I'm really really hoping it's just a quirk and he's okay.

rhodesian46
05-04-2009, 01:57 PM
Hey Nat,
Sorry to hear about your boy. All bloodwork was done right? I read that Jack has heat intolerance .This makes me think of Cushings as Pebbles had almost the same symptoms at first. Wanting to be on the cold floor Didn't want to stay outside at all in the heat and would cry. I know that sme dogs may have their liver enzymes a little elevated Most have them very high. Pebbles was in the 200 and 300's. Just a thought. I hope not I also hope that his heart is fine.

I do think though that God has a plan. You see you are wonderful with sick cats and dogs.Chris was lucky to have you. I do know whether it be a small problem or large problem you will take care of them. Many in their lifetime never have a problem with their animals. I seem to be given many that needed care including Cleo the 2x obstructed cat. BTW he is doing great.Sending positive thoughts your way

Roxee'sDad
05-04-2009, 03:37 PM
Hi Natalie,
Just wanted to drop by and let you know we are keeping positive thoughts and prayers for you and Jack. Hope it isn't anything serious.

I've really enjoyed your story on Jack at least until the latest "on no" news. Hope it works out.

By the way, what are JRT's? Maybe Jack Russell Terriers?

All our best to you.
John (Roxee's Dad)

ladysmom06
05-04-2009, 05:14 PM
Hi John,

By the way, what are JRT's? Maybe Jack Russell Terriers?



Yes, they are Jack Russell Terriers:D:D.

ladysmom06
05-04-2009, 05:21 PM
Hi Nat,

Interestingly, our behaviorist, Sophia Yin, has an Australian cattle dog and... a JRT named Jonesy who she says is the most difficult dog she's ever trained! Met him at class the other day - he was boinging up and down for a squeeky toy, rising at least four feet, almost five feet of vertical lift!


Lady use to do the boinging thing before she got sick. She could go pretty high too.

k9diabetes
05-04-2009, 09:06 PM
I've been doing some searching as I had read that hyperthermia is a somewhat common problem in border collies... There is a syndrome called Exercise Induced Hyperthermia where in just minutes the body can actually overheat. If you measure their body temperature, it will be very high even though they haven't exercised much.

http://195.184.239.210/health/exercise-inducedhyperthermia.html

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=21143&st=20

It is good to know, even if it might be hard for Jack given the climate, that heat intolerance seems to be a pretty common thing in border collies. It may be that we will just have to pace him some this summer and give him frequent breaks where he relaxes...

eyelostit
05-04-2009, 09:10 PM
I've been doing some searching as I had read that hyperthermia is a somewhat common problem in border collies... There is a syndrome called Exercise Induced Hyperthermia where in just minutes the body can actually overheat. If you measure their body temperature, it will be very high even though they haven't exercised much.

http://195.184.239.210/health/exercise-inducedhyperthermia.html

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=21143&st=20

It is good to know, even if it might be hard for Jack given the climate, that heat intolerance seems to be a pretty common thing in border collies. It may be that we will just have to pace him some this summer and give him frequent breaks where he relaxes...

I think this is what happens to Niki at times when we get some lows, I'll look at those links, thanks

Dollydog
05-05-2009, 05:55 AM
Hi Natalie,
I'm glad you've got a hint about what could be affecting Jack. With our long cold, winters it almost seemed cruel to have a little dog that couldn't go out for any length of time when it was so cold. I used to feel so guilty for bringing her here when she had to poop in -40 degree weather! :(

My Lady could go 3 feet straight up off the floor, up until a few years ago. She tries to jump up now but usually falls, so she's learning not to do it. :rolleyes:
Take care,
Jo-Ann & Lady :)

k9diabetes
05-11-2009, 02:05 PM
We needed to go to Reno to meet up with my mother Sunday and decided to take Jack on his first overnight trip....

I have four (or six, depending on your thoughts about hyphens... ;) ) words for how the trip went:

25-acre off-leash dog park

In other words, canine heaven on earth. Really, truly, seriously.... delirious joy.

It's essentially a pasture just off the end of Rancho San Rafael Regional Park in Reno. Basically a square 25 acres on the side of a moderate slope with rivulets of water running down the hill in skinny streams and across the grass in places in a very thin layer.

I have literally never seen Jack that happy before.

He was totally in his border collie element. Running flat out across the pasture, splashing through the water, wading and rolling in the little streams.

And only twice did we have any significant problems recalling him (with chicken as an incentive) - when he got a full half way across the pasture and in the midst of some very good stuff and when he found the toad.... that he did NOT want to give up.

We took him yesterday after lunch and then this morning before we left.

I think I'm gonna post a Dog-Friendly places thread as I know a bunch of folks here are close enough to Reno to maybe wind up there some day.

We also had two meals at Archie's Grill, which is just up the street from the regional park entrance. They have four or five tables on a well-shaded patio above street level where dogs are welcome so Jack could eat with us too.

He did great. He was a little anxious once we went to bed in the hotel last night - stayed at the Reno Ramada Casino, which welcomes dogs of all sizes and charges just an additional $20. No accidents, no problems... he was very relaxed in the hotel room while we visited. Still not crazy about elevators but was getting used to it.

For most of the two hour drive each way he looked out the front window so he was tired enough to be pretty mellow when we arrived. Today on the way home, he was still looking out the front window most of the way home but his upper eyelids were drooping and he looked like somebody trying to stay awake to watch a movie! :rolleyes:

Natalie

eyelostit
05-12-2009, 08:16 PM
That sounded great, I can just picture the elevator ride ;)

Margaret Boyle
05-13-2009, 06:06 AM
We needed to go to Reno to meet up with my mother Sunday and decided to take Jack on his first overnight trip....

I have four (or six, depending on your thoughts about hyphens... ;) ) words for how the trip went:

25-acre off-leash dog park

In other words, canine heaven on earth. Really, truly, seriously.... delirious joy.

It's essentially a pasture just off the end of Rancho San Rafael Regional Park in Reno. Basically a square 25 acres on the side of a moderate slope with rivulets of water running down the hill in skinny streams and across the grass in places in a very thin layer.

I have literally never seen Jack that happy before.

He was totally in his border collie element. Running flat out across the pasture, splashing through the water, wading and rolling in the little streams.

And only twice did we have any significant problems recalling him (with chicken as an incentive) - when he got a full half way across the pasture and in the midst of some very good stuff and when he found the toad.... that he did NOT want to give up.

We took him yesterday after lunch and then this morning before we left.

I think I'm gonna post a Dog-Friendly places thread as I know a bunch of folks here are close enough to Reno to maybe wind up there some day.

We also had two meals at Archie's Grill, which is just up the street from the regional park entrance. They have four or five tables on a well-shaded patio above street level where dogs are welcome so Jack could eat with us too.

He did great. He was a little anxious once we went to bed in the hotel last night - stayed at the Reno Ramada Casino, which welcomes dogs of all sizes and charges just an additional $20. No accidents, no problems... he was very relaxed in the hotel room while we visited. Still not crazy about elevators but was getting used to it.

For most of the two hour drive each way he looked out the front window so he was tired enough to be pretty mellow when we arrived. Today on the way home, he was still looking out the front window most of the way home but his upper eyelids were drooping and he looked like somebody trying to stay awake to watch a movie! :rolleyes:

Natalie

Hi Natalie,
Sounds as if Jack had a great time this would do him good :D
It is nice when you get a place where you can have your dog in with you
when you have a meal, we usually find one with an outside garden.
Our last dog was a Jack Russell we loved him too bits they are great wee dogs he was 16 when he died and he was a hardy wee dog.
No wonder Jack was nodding off he would be dreaming about all the splashing about and all that freedom.
We go away for a week on Sat and it's a 2hour run we are looking forward to it. :D


LOl

forloveofandy
05-13-2009, 07:05 AM
Just catching up on this post. He is such a cutie. He looks like a very happy dog. He sounds like a good match and great addition to your family.

That baby picture is just incredible!

k9diabetes
06-12-2009, 05:11 PM
Jack got a second trip to Reno on Tuesday and went berserk with happiness at the huge dog park. The grass had gotten tall and he careened through it at high speed, even occasionally coming when called!

He ran so hard and so much that he was exhausted for a full 24 hours after! Went back to the hotel Tuesday evening and he crashed. I could see just from his eyes that he was exhausted.

Man, I wish we could find someplace like that around here. Jack has had some problems at dog parks in recent months but the Reno park is so big that a dog really doesn't have to interact if they don't want to. We are gonna have to find him a pasture!

You can really see when he's out there the country that he was made for. Poor guy is a pasture dog living in the suburbs!

________

The other funny thing is that I went today to a pet store near home... nice store, browsed around, lots of good toys and snacks and healthy stuff. So I get to the counter and right next to the cash register is a box of note cards with pictures of dogs and cats on the front. Which caught my eye because looking back at me from the note card in the front of the stack was.... Jack!!

The cards were printed for the local SPCA to support them financially and there was our Jack, formerly Bo, smiling in one of his SPCA pictures. In fact, there were a dozen note cards with Jack smiling away... he is very photogenic!! :)

It cracked me up to see Jack there. The back of the card says:

Bo
was rescued by the SPCA

Natalie

BestBuddy
06-12-2009, 11:58 PM
Wow, Jack is famous.

I'm glad he had such fun in the big dog park, how far away is it? Maybe you better move to the country and get some acres.:D

Jenny

AlisonandMia
06-13-2009, 02:07 AM
Zac is a bounding pasture dog too! He loves any excuse to leave the ground - is Jack like that? And we have had "problems" at dog parks too:(:(:( and basically don't use them anymore - the situation is just way to "hairy" in every sense of the word! Zac is simply too reactive to be put into such a chaotic and overwhelming situation - and he really does annoy the other dogs by trying to round them up!:rolleyes::D

Watch out for allergies if the grass is flowering. My husband's working sheep dog went down with a severe asthma attack after a few days of working sheep in big stands of flowering grasses. She wasn't by any means an atopic dog (never any itching ever or anything) and it was a one-off thing - maybe it wasn't really an allergy as such but more a mechanical reaction to dust (ie so much pollen). It was pretty scary.

Alison

We Hope
06-13-2009, 05:03 PM
Natalie,

Does your county have a Forest Preserve District or something similar? We have dog parks in this area which are part of the Forest Preserves; they set some of the land aside for the dog parks. You might find one closer to home if there's something like this in your county.

Jack is probably hoping you'll all move to Reno and live happily ever after! :)

What a surprise to see Jack looking back at you! Did you get all of those with him on it to use as your note cards?

Kathy

k9diabetes
06-17-2009, 03:04 PM
Jack isn't much of a herder actually. He doesn't annoy other dogs so much as they annoy him - he's not keen on playing with other dogs. What we really need is somewhere where he can stretch his legs and run all by himself, which is really hard to do cuz he needs a fence.

We actually own some land up in the foothills that borders National Forest on two sides but haven't been able to get up there since we got Jack. I'd still like his recall to be a bit better too... if he sees a bunny or a squirrel, he'll take off.

What we need is a pasture... we are actually looking into trying to find something like that. Some herding dog trainers have facilities that you can rent for herding practice.

His other big issue is men with things in their hands, like cell phone, keys, etc. He got surly with a Petco employee the other day because he had something in his hand. That's a big one for us to work on.

Alison, how to do you exercise Zac? Neither of us is a runner and Jack is not a good enough leash walker to use a bike plus he freaks out at all kinds of things - kites, flapping trash can lids - and lunges after squirrels and rabbits and sometimes cats.

We did buy Jack a Hide-a-Squirrel, which he likes and I just ordered him a puzzle from www.clickertraining.com (http://www.clickertraining.com) - I think he needs mental stimulation as much as physical actually. But finding somewhere he can really run without arguing with other dogs is a major challenge.

Natalie

AlisonandMia
06-17-2009, 07:26 PM
Alison, how to do you exercise Zac? Neither of us is a runner and Jack is not a good enough leash walker to use a bike plus he freaks out at all kinds of things - kites, flapping trash can lids - and lunges after squirrels and rabbits and sometimes cats.

I've evolved a rather idiosyncratic way of exercising Zac which involves using one of those dreaded retractable leads(:eek:). But I don't use it in the usual hairy and irresponsible way they are usually used. He spends, I'd say, 90% of every walk walking beside me on a loose lead as he should. What I do do with the retractable is use it as a reward for good behavior and as a way of burning of extra energy (Zac's, not mine - I don't have extra energy generally!)

I'll wait until he is behaving in an exemplary manner and then, when a tree or lamp post is within the length of the leash I say "long line" which is his cue to race off and have a good sniff! (Zac is a particularly sniffy dog, BTW.) The rapid acceleration repeated a number of times seems to get the beans out of him and I tend to use it particularly in the first 10 minutes of a walk for this reason. I also use the length of lead allowed with the 16ft retractable to practice recalls - I say "long line" and then whistle or call him back (I prefer the whistle because it's quicker to deliver) and he spins around and races back for a reward - a food treat or sometimes a toy or a tummyrub - he never knows what he's going to get which makes it even more fun for him. Then I might make him sit (or something else) and then send him off again. He finds this very mentally stimulating and it burns off a lot of physical energy very fast with minimal exertion on my part.

What I don't do with the retractable is sort of wander along in my own little world with the dog wandering along in his own little world - that is where retractables get really ugly IMO. I use it in a very special way as a training aid and a way of getting him to burn off more energy than I do. Overall the whole situation was so controllable and easy that I'd walk Zac on his retractable and little Mia on a fixed 6ft lead and harness and all three of us were very happy hiking along despite our different exercise requirements - Mia always had a lot more stamina than little ol' me and bounced along happily sniffing here and sniffing there while I had a comfortable walk and Zac got the physical and mental workout he needed.

I've found that retractables are far from created equal. The one I've got is a "Walkabout" by Aspen Pets and has a very light mechanism so it doesn't encourage and reward pulling - the amount of "drag" would probably be no more than that which you'd get pulling an 6ft long rope along the ground - very light. I also bought a size larger (for weight of dog) than I strictly needed as Zac weighs close to the upper limit for the "correct" size and it's mechanism is still so light that I could use it with Mia who only weighed 9lbs.

Zac also lunges at "little furries" (very strong prey drive) - we don't have squirrels but we have possums that fill the same "psychological niche" - he's getting much better with cats after a lot of desensitization and counterconditioning. However if one springs up from under his nose - well he can't help himself! (BTW, he actually got attacked (physically attacked!!) by a cat a couple of months ago - it's the third time I've encountered dog-aggressive behavior from a cat when out with a dog but the first time I've ever had a dog physically connected with by the cat - the cats around here ain't "pussy cats" it seems, which is another reason for him not to tangle with them). Zac also reacts with some dogs - usually dogs that are going off aggressively at him (Jack Russells really get him going!). If the other dog is calm then he will be but, oh dear! if the other guy gets all intense and emotional then he's off too. It sounds like Jack is far more likely to actually take fright at things than is Zac - although that can happen. It doesn't seem to be such an issue these days as he's seen more of the world but when he was younger he'd sometimes shy at things just like a horse would.

We also have problems with some people too - men who look him in the eye and bend over and come towards him from the front (why do they have to do that???) and he's had a bad experience with a child who, in Zac's opinion, attacked him without warning and so he's now predictably unprediticable with kids too.:( Basically he's a "one family dog" which must be quite a common thing with dogs of his breeding (ACD and what looks like a touch of GSD). He is, however, absolutely fine with his people even if he's still a bit hyper with some of them - which is their fault for rewarding hyper behavior as I constantly have to point out.:rolleyes:

I'd thought of using a bike too. When he was younger and stupider it certainly wouldn't have been an option because if he saw a cat......:eek::eek::eek:. I also worry about overheating in our climate here (warm and humid) and for most of the year it would probably not work for that reason - not even at night. You can get semi-rigid devices that attach the dog to the rear hub which would have to be a lot safer than holding the lead in your hand. I've seen some people doing the latter and always wondered what would happen if the dog suddenly lunged either off at right angles or worse still across in front of the bike - or around behind. I think doing that is always a calculated risk with any dog - and with a reactive and athletic dog the numbers don't look good!

The other thing that burns off energy for Zac is playing fetch and similar games in the back yard. I do occasionally (very occasionally) take him to the dog park when no-one else is there and let him run and sniff but he seems to enjoy walks and playing at home just as much - which is probably why we do it so rarely - that and trying to find a time when the dog park is vacant isn't necessarily that easy.

I think every dog I've ever had has had a pretty high level of physical energy but Zac is completely different from any of the others with a much more difficult temperament and more "hang ups" and "issues" than all the others put together could have dreamed up if they tried!

Alison


Alison

k9diabetes
06-18-2009, 09:52 AM
Alison, I can't thank you enough for giving me a detailed description of what you do with Zac. It is incredibly helpful as Jack has many of the same kinds of issues and responses.

It's quite a challenge going from Chris, who was Mr. Mellow, to Jack, who isn't mellow about anything! And, like Zac, Jack is great at home with us. It's everywhere and everything else that's a challenge.

I swear it's always something. At the park down the street from our house, there's a guy who has a kite that I think must have a small motor attached. It makes a ton of noise while swooping and diving overhead and of course we can see and hear it from a block away. I find myself wishing that kite would have a fatal accident! Jack goes berserk if he gets too close to it, too close being half a block away.

I also find it difficult to meld his potty alerting issues with his counter-conditioning to the Jack Russells next door. We have better luck with the poop issue if we use the backyard only for potty trips - no play time. If we even just take treats out with us, he can't focus enough on his business to do it. But then he also doesn't get counter-conditioned to the Jack Russells if we don't take treats out there and loses it insanely when they come out, as they did yesterday...

Sometimes I feel like my head is going to explode from trying to figure all of this out. I know some of it will probably improve as Jack gets a little older. He's won't be two years old until around October. But between his issues and the cats' issues with him and Gus' IBD explosions, I'm feeling a little frazzled!

Natalie

eyelostit
06-18-2009, 10:13 PM
My dogs went crazy when a hot air balloon was in the area, or when they heard the back up beeps on any trucks nearby.

Margaret Boyle
06-19-2009, 01:12 PM
Alison, I can't thank you enough for giving me a detailed description of what you do with Zac. It is incredibly helpful as Jack has many of the same kinds of issues and responses.

It's quite a challenge going from Chris, who was Mr. Mellow, to Jack, who isn't mellow about anything! And, like Zac, Jack is great at home with us. It's everywhere and everything else that's a challenge.

I swear it's always something. At the park down the street from our house, there's a guy who has a kite that I think must have a small motor attached. It makes a ton of noise while swooping and diving overhead and of course we can see and hear it from a block away. I find myself wishing that kite would have a fatal accident! Jack goes berserk if he gets too close to it, too close being half a block away.

I also find it difficult to meld his potty alerting issues with his counter-conditioning to the Jack Russells next door. We have better luck with the poop issue if we use the backyard only for potty trips - no play time. If we even just take treats out with us, he can't focus enough on his business to do it. But then he also doesn't get counter-conditioned to the Jack Russells if we don't take treats out there and loses it insanely when they come out, as they did yesterday...

Sometimes I feel like my head is going to explode from trying to figure all of this out. I know some of it will probably improve as Jack gets a little older. He's won't be two years old until around October. But between his issues and the cats' issues with him and Gus' IBD explosions, I'm feeling a little frazzled!

Natalie

Natalie,
I have been reading with interest about Jack he sounds like a typical Jack Russell I can assure you he will calm down as he gets older.
How many are living next door to you? Is there any way you could get them socialised together maybe a walk all together a few times a week, (of course
with treats) or would this be a no go area.
I know they are very energetic wee dogs Sean was hyper when he was a pup
but as he got older he did mellow they are very determined dogs but at the same time very loveable.
You are right they need plenty of exercise to tire them out he would do fine on the tread mill!!!

I know it is not funny Natalie but he will calm down and it is frustrating.

There was a man up the road from us and every time he passed our gates
he was always reading his newspaper and Sean would run at the gates barking like mad and he always forgot about Sean doing this, we don't know how many times his newspaper went up in the air and he would curse every time. It was quite funny. We knew the man and we always said to him "you should be well used to it by now" he was always so engrossed in his newspaper he kept forgetting about Sean:D:D

Thought I would share this with you;)

k9diabetes
06-19-2009, 06:47 PM
There was a man up the road from us and every time he passed our gates he was always reading his newspaper and Sean would run at the gates barking like mad and he always forgot about Sean doing this, we don't know how many times his newspaper went up in the air and he would curse every time. It was quite funny. We knew the man and we always said to him "you should be well used to it by now" he was always so engrossed in his newspaper he kept forgetting about Sean


Hahahahahahaha! That's too funny. Paints quite a mental picture!!

We took Jack swimming today and he had a great time. We let him drag his 30 foot lead so we could catch him once he got out of the water. I stayed onshore and Jeff waded out to where he would have to swim and I'd throw a stick for him out to where Jeff was and Jack would take off to retrieve it.

Jack wasn't too sure about losing touch with the ground at first - this is only his second time swimming - but then he got comfortable with it and swam quite a bit. That used up a bunch of energy and he was tired by the time we were done. So that worked great. For the summer I think we will try to take him swimming fairly often as the river is just ten minutes from our house and we bought a season pass to the park there so we can go for an hour or ten minutes and as often as we want to. There's a small beach and then it's quite shallow for at least 50 feet out. It was very crowded today but only one other dog and very few squirrels, though Jack looked long and hard for them.

Natalie

k9diabetes
07-01-2009, 11:26 PM
Jack LOVES to swim! His feet are a bit webbed and he's really good at it. We have taken him half a dozen times and now he's very confident. Tonight with his daddy along he thrashed into the water the moment he got to it, splashed around, swam through some wakes, and just generally had a really great time. He likes the water enough that he can mostly forget about the squirrels.

Friday when we took him there was a pit bull type mix chasing squirrels up a tree that grows at a bit of angle. The dog was so determined that he climbed about 10 feet up the side of the tree! And fell out... they finally leashed him up as he had absolutely no self control.

We are so lucky to have a great swimming spot on the river just across town. There's a good beach and it's shallow enough for people to wade out 30 feet and for Jack to swim without having to go too far from shore. We bought an annual pass to the park so we can go every day and stay 5 minutes or an hour. It's the perfect way to exercise Jack this summer. The only real drawback is that it's crowded on weekends but I take Jack weekday mornings instead.

Natalie

pgcor
07-02-2009, 10:35 AM
It's time for a visit from Debbie Downer. Pip is 9...that's all I'm saying...

:eek:Pam

k9diabetes
07-04-2009, 06:14 PM
I confess, Pam, I did think of Pip when thinking about Jack settling down when he's a little older! ;)

I actually wrote a really long reply here the other night and then the website crashed briefly and I lost it!

Seriously, though, Jack seems to have improved so much in the past couple of months. We figure it's a combination of all his training and some maturity and the fact that he's now lived with us longer than any place else in his life so is starting to trust that this is his permanent home and a happy place for him. I think he's settling in more. And the "watch me" training has absolutely focused him more on us.

When we picked up Gus, we brought Jack into the vet's office to weigh him (53.3 pounds) and even the vet tech, unsolicited, commented on how much more confident and relaxed he is now and how happy he looks.

The boy is so spoiled... he'd better be happy!

We have discovered his love for plush squeeky toys and they are everywhere. We check each squeeker prior to purchase to make sure it's (1) not too loud for us, and (2) robust enough to keep Jack happy. He has a Hide-a-Squirrel stump and he pulls all the little plush toys out - squirrels, lambiedoodles... and scampers around the house squeeking them and tossing them around. We have to keep a lot of backup toys as once the squeeker is dead, which usually doesn't take too long, he wants a new one that squeeks. Some days there is plush carnage as far as the eye can see!

Natalie

pgcor
07-06-2009, 11:50 AM
Natalie - "plush carnage" made me laugh out loud at work!!! We had the same stump toy with the little squirrels in it. As you know, he'd rather get the real ones!

Seriously, I do believe you will be successful because you have a handle on training Jack. I have never been good at that...and it shows! Actually my husband used to raise Boxers, but has largely been unsuccessful training Pip. He claims the breed is a stubborn one, but I know Pip was spoiled rotten after we rescued him.

What do you mean by Watch Me Training?

k9diabetes
07-06-2009, 09:01 PM
The "watch me" is a big goal for all of Jack's training exercises - teaching him to look to us for guidance and focus on us, especially in stressful situations.

So, for example, we throw a treat on the floor and tell him to Leave It and he gets rewarded for looking intently into our eyes waiting for permission to get the treat or a different reward and ignoring the treat on the floor. He can't go get the treat on the floor unless we say so.

Eventually (he's not totally there yet), he will equate leaving something with getting a reward and look at us for his reward as soon as he hears Leave It.

On walks, we want him to focus on us so he is walking nicely by our side instead of pulling us down the street at the end of the leash.

And when problems arise, like a dog he doesn't like or a guy tossing a cell phone around, we stop and have him look at us for a reward, which distracts him from the problem.

Basically, teaching him good things happen when he focuses on us and also rewards him for calm behavior.

It's also a variation of Say Please by Sitting and Nothing in Life is Free.

k9diabetes
07-26-2009, 03:17 PM
Jack was hilarious today. We took him to a different river spot - kind of cobbly so he couldn't run around like he can at the sandy beach we usually go to. Jeff decided to throw a big tree branch into the river and Jack thought it was the best stick ever!

It was 7+ feet long and a inch or more thick around and Jack cheerfully retrieved it over and over. I swear he was gloating at his accomplishment!

Apparently his main complaint about his river toys is that they are way too small!

Natalie

Patty
07-27-2009, 09:37 AM
Just catching up over here...
LOL, So proud of that BIG stick!!! I bet he was worn out last night :)

Whenever we took Ali boating with us, she had her own life jacket (since we were in the middle of the lake). Every time the boat stopped she wanted to get out and retrieve her bumper. She didn't know how to just float. Her legs would just go and go and go. She'd crashed in the truck on the way home with her head on top of a stack of towels.

Great way to burn energy!

BestBuddy
07-27-2009, 03:01 PM
Natalie,
It really sounds like you are having far too much fun with Jack. My suggestion is to get a much bigger toy box to put all these oversize toys in.:p
Jenny

AlisonandMia
07-27-2009, 04:03 PM
My suggestion is to get a much bigger toy box to put all these oversize toys in.:p
Jenny

Or his own boatshed!:D

Alison

k9diabetes
07-27-2009, 10:34 PM
She didn't know how to just float. Her legs would just go and go and go.

Jack's the same way... lift him out of the water and he keeps paddling. It's great that they have an instinct to swim instead of having to learn how.

Jack's toes are somewhat webbed and he's got big clod hoppers, which make him a great swimmer. Plus his feet are much more durable than Chris' were. Chris, despite being 60 pounds, had very delicate feet! He didn't like rocks at all! Would have hated that cobbly beach.

Natalie

Autumn
07-31-2009, 07:07 AM
Wow...Jack is so adorable!!! Congratulation Natalie!! Jack is so fortunate to have you as his Mom.

I can't believe I missed this post, time and time again, reading forum.:o I'm so happy for you all! Sounds like Jack is having a ball. His life is so incredibly wonderful because of you, his new family.:)

Audy loves chasing squirrels too! That's how I know....yep... BG are ok at the moment. ;)

LOL, Jack ran through your screen 2xs. Audy did this back in May.

I apologize if I missed the post. Did the DNA test come back on Jack? Thinking to do DNA on Audy. It is so amazing to be able to get this information like this.

Congratulations and Enjoy!
Anna

k9diabetes
08-02-2009, 09:13 PM
The DNA test came back and Jack is 100% border collie! I was vaguely disappointed he wasn't a mutt! ;) But now having seen some smooth coated border collies, they are lean and leggy like he is. His main variance from other smooth coated BCs I've seen is that he's definitely on the large side - 51-53 pounds.

Natalie

Autumn
08-03-2009, 05:58 AM
Jack is 100% border collie! I was vaguely disappointed he wasn't a mutt!...LOL!!

Congrats! How wonderful it is that you know Jack's breed! Jack is a big boy too! :) It's so amazing that you can get this information!

You have encouraged me to look into the DNA test with Audy. We know positively she has Doxy in her. I'm so curious if she has the other breeds in her that we suspect. It's interesting how Autumn does has the trait of lifting her rght front leg and standing exactly like a Pointer does, when she is curious, sensing a critter. It is so incredible that we may be able to find out. :)

k9diabetes
08-05-2009, 08:56 PM
We did the DNA test on Chris as well, two of them actually because the first one, which was new, was taking so long to come back. In Chris' case, both tests came out inconclusive - they couldn't identify a single one of his breeds! We always knew he was a mutt of mutts but didn't realize just how mixed up he was until we did the DNA test.

With Chris, we did this one, which requires a blood sample:

http://www.whatsmydog.com/

And this one, which requires only a cheek swab and you can return by mail:

http://www.canineheritage.com/

The cheek swab test is the one we did with Jack.

We did the DNA test with Jack because, thinking he was a mix, we wanted to know if there were other significant personality contributors besides border collie. Jack hadn't started to do the BC crouch yet.

Natalie

BestBuddy
08-06-2009, 11:59 PM
I've just found the BITSA (great name) test for doggie dna here in Australia and I plan to get Luke checked. It is also the cheek swab one. I am guessing it will show Poodle/Whippet. Any betting people out there?
Jenny

Dollydog
08-08-2009, 03:40 AM
Hello,
Jack is such a beautiful dog and that's so interesting that you can find out what breed he is. I've never seen a smooth-coated border collie and known that's what I was seeing. No wonder he's got so much energy!!!
Jo-Ann & Lady :)

snow
08-08-2009, 08:10 AM
The DNA test came back and Jack is 100% border collie! I was vaguely disappointed he wasn't a mutt! ;) But now having seen some smooth coated border collies, they are lean and leggy like he is. His main variance from other smooth coated BCs I've seen is that he's definitely on the large side - 51-53 pounds.

Natalie

I wanted to do a DNA test on Devon when he was younger but I figured I'd get the same answer as Chris did - "too muttley for us"

So he's a shepalabragoldendobierottachow. Those are all the ones I can figure out for sure. He's got mega webbed feet too, swims like a giant silent otter.

Border collies are so much fun to watch, they never get tired and are so graceful when they retrieve. I don't have the energy to keep up with them, thank goodness Dev's a couch potato. BC's wear me out just watching them,

snow<--person
Devon<--paddlefoot

Autumn
08-14-2009, 01:57 PM
Thanks Natalie!
I have to decide which one to do. I will read through the links tonight. I wonder if the blood test DNA is more accurate. It's great to be able to do this.


Snow....shepalabragoldendobierottachow......LOL! :)

k9diabetes
08-15-2009, 09:57 AM
The company that does the blood test I listed has been around longer than the one that does the cheek swab test.

We originally did the cheek swab with Chris cuz we didn't want to put him through a blood draw for that. But they were just starting up and it was taking a long time to process the results and... well... we knew Chris did not have a lot of time. :( So we went ahead with the blood test.

So with Jack, because we were mainly just curious, we just went with the quick cheek swab. The company that does that one is just down the road from us.

Natalie

k9diabetes
08-31-2009, 08:40 PM
After two incidents with Jack, we are back to working pretty intently with a behaviorist to manage his fears.

The first incident resulted from someone who took it upon himself at our front door to grab Jack by the head just behind his ears and pet and scratch him pretty vigorously. I told this person Jack was a rescue with issues, especially with men, but he did it anyway.

The second incident was with a neighbor child who Jack has met before without incident. I think she startled him and he was on our property instead of across the street.

So Jack is off limits to people, period. We don't have a lot of visitors but I think we will be using a muzzle in addition to conditioning his acceptance of visitors with treats, just to be safe.

He's worse at home, worse when he's tired, and worse when something has ramped up his anxiety - loud engines, noisy mechanical kites, light poles, flapping signs, someone throwing something around in their hands. And he definitely does not trust men, especially if they are in their 20s or 30s. It's hard because he doesn't give much warning that he's scared and because he can be okay with someone until they do something that alarms him.

The trainer very kindly brought someone to video our recent session so I can review it, which is really helpful.

He did okay at the vet surprisingly... his anal glands had to be expressed and despite all of that experience he was pretty calm even after. We are in the process of trying a female vet as our current vet is scaling back his hours so he can semi-retire. Jack seemed to think she was okay and so did I. I definitely think he would be best off with a woman. He was quite intimidated by our male vet.

The trainer tried pretty hard to provoke him when she was here. He likes her and knows she comes in with a bag of treats strapped to her waist!

Poor guy... he's such a sweet dog and it seems a shame that he has to be limited this way.

Natalie

Margaret Boyle
09-01-2009, 05:07 AM
After two incidents with Jack, we are back to working pretty intently with a behaviorist to manage his fears.

The first incident resulted from someone who took it upon himself at our front door to grab Jack by the head just behind his ears and pet and scratch him pretty vigorously. I told this person Jack was a rescue with issues, especially with men, but he did it anyway.

The second incident was with a neighbor child who Jack has met before without incident. I think she startled him and he was on our property instead of across the street.

So Jack is off limits to people, period. We don't have a lot of visitors but I think we will be using a muzzle in addition to conditioning his acceptance of visitors with treats, just to be safe.

He's worse at home, worse when he's tired, and worse when something has ramped up his anxiety - loud engines, noisy mechanical kites, light poles, flapping signs, someone throwing something around in their hands. And he definitely does not trust men, especially if they are in their 20s or 30s. It's hard because he doesn't give much warning that he's scared and because he can be okay with someone until they do something that alarms him.

The trainer very kindly brought someone to video our recent session so I can review it, which is really helpful.

He did okay at the vet surprisingly... his anal glands had to be expressed and despite all of that experience he was pretty calm even after. We are in the process of trying a female vet as our current vet is scaling back his hours so he can semi-retire. Jack seemed to think she was okay and so did I. I definitely think he would be best off with a woman. He was quite intimidated by our male vet.

The trainer tried pretty hard to provoke him when she was here. He likes her and knows she comes in with a bag of treats strapped to her waist!

Poor guy... he's such a sweet dog and it seems a shame that he has to be limited this way.

Natalie

Natalie,
Poor Jack I feel sorry he has to be limited. These people really annoy me especially when you told him about Jack and he went ahead and man handled him, so he deserved all he got.:mad:

I think working with the behaviourist will sort out some of the issues, as he seems to like her.

Who knows what goes through the wee guys head Natalie. You don't know if he was badly treated or not Natalie? He trusts you and your husband but it will perhaps take him a while to build up trust with other people.

It sounds as if he is going to be fine with the female vet which is a really good starting point.

Stick with the women then gradually work up to the men, he will be fine Natalie.I think it has all to do with trust.

Hope the behaviorist can help him as he seems as you say a sweet dog.

Hugs to you all

BestBuddy
09-01-2009, 07:10 PM
Hi Natalie,
I hope it is just a matter of time before Jack is trusting again. I am having a few problems with Luke too and as he is my first rescue I'm not sure of how to help him. Keep posting about the progress because you may also have some answers for me too.
Jenny

Jody
09-02-2009, 05:34 AM
Hey Nat - reading up here on Jack and his escapades. Poor guy! It's so hard to know what they've been thru - if only they could tell us. Keep working on it - if anyone can get to the bottom of his issues, it will be you. ;)

Are you still keeping him away from your cats? Need to look for an update on your Gus too. Take care - Jody

eyelostit
09-02-2009, 05:22 PM
Hi Nat,

I can relate, Niki appeared at work one day, she would not come near me for about 4 hours, I went a bought biscuits, she wanted nothing to do with me petting her and had no use for the guys I worked with.

It took her awhile to get close to my husband, anyway Niki has never wanted anyone strange to pet her even before the diabetes, she loves my cousin who walks her when they visit and only likes a few family members who stop by alot.

I don't think she was around kids or if so they abused her, she has a slight crack in her backbone no doubt from abuse and thats why she appeared at work that day. So she don't like kids at all and men, I don't blame her ;)

She has had a woman vet all these years, when I went to the vet who is closer, she suggested that her husband could see Niki also as this vet did not have alot of hours, so I could not go there and stayed with my current vet.

I left her in the car years ago when I had a tire changover, I told them she was in there, I get paged over the store, the guy opened the door and went into the glove comp to get my manual out, well Niki nipped him and he realized he should not have done this and was not upset and said Niki was just doing her job.

I hate when people want to pet her and I have to say no, sometimes at the park she may let a lady pet her who has a dog minus the dog, Niki smells the dog on her, I tell the gal you may try but I do kneel down by Niki while the gal pets her to be on the safe side, usually that goes ok as dogs can sense people.

In this world people do not think, usually I ask a person if I can pet their dog.

I would not want an unknown person to be here when we get a storm and Niki starts scratching the floor and hides under the table, she never did this until we moved cuz we didn't have many thunderstorms at my old house and she lived there for 5 years. That upset all 3 dogs once we got here and they were always scared.

Someone had just been cruel or upset poor Jack in his past.

When I had Chief he never liked being petting from the front on top of his head, when you'd go to pet him that way he would scrunch down a little and blink his eyes, no doubt the prev owners where smacking him on his head, he was only 1 yr old when we got him and he never forgot about it.

So I'd be done with people in a way also and use the muzzle if you need too. I know how your feel but what else can you do sometimes.

Dolly :)

k9diabetes
09-02-2009, 09:35 PM
I'm prepared to be quite rude to anyone now who feels like they should handle Jack without asking!

We were following a guy and his dog out on a walk the other day and they were stopping every six inches so the rottie could sniff every shrub. This rottie was straining at the end of the leash every moment and getting excited about Jack's presence. So Jack and I passed him, making a big wide swing away from them. As I went by, the guy wanted our dogs to meet and said "Oh this guy's really friendly; he's just a big baby!" And as we kept walking I just said, "Well, unfortunately, my dog's not." Kind of caught the guy off guard and left him speechless. We were giving tons of signals that we did not want to meet them but they were flying right over his head.

I think in part Jack just has a nervous personality. He's been really wound up the past four or five days. I don't know what's gotten in to him! He's like a lava flow!!! You block the lava's path and it just moves over and comes out somewhere else... I've been blocking all kinds of aroused behavior at home and I swear it's just building up and looking to blow out!!

We will work on his stuff so far for another couple of weeks and then get together with the trainer again. I need to spend some more concentrated time with him but life has been an absolute zoo lately.

Jody, the dog and cats are totally separated right now. Lately Jack has been the main offender and we are working on that along with all of his aroused behaviors in the house. It's just kind of dropped to a lower priority, not only because of the more severe issues to deal with but because we have found an arrangement where Katie is pretty happy staying in the back half of the house so she's not miserable where she is.

Our trainer, Sophia Yin, says we need to train the cats. I know she's trained everything there is but honestly, if she can train THESE cats, I will be very seriously impressed. I might have to let her try it some day.

Sophia's really great. www.askdryin.com (http://www.askdryin.com).

Natalie

AlisonandMia
09-02-2009, 10:03 PM
What I decided to do with Zac quite a while ago was to (most of the time) cease to focus on and reward behaviors (like sitting) which is what I'd tried at first (ie sitting as an alternative to jumping up as is usually recommended) but to train for attitude instead. I started out rewarding incrementally calmer and less full-on behavior and then shaped it til he could just "hang out" without having to mug me all the time. Most of the time around me now (and the two girls who've also followed my line) he acts almost sleepy and lethargic a lot of time, if nothing is arousing him and even then he returns to a quiet state very quickly as he knows this is how he gets my attention, treats, clicks etc. I can now rev him up with a game and then have him calm and dopey looking within minutes.

With my husband and the boys he isn't quite as good as they just don't seem to quite get it!:rolleyes: They tend to respond to him running up to them wriggling and squirming and the next thing they know he's jumping on them. My husband has recently got a bit better but he does have trouble overcoming his natural tendency to just ignore the dog when he's being good and talk to him when he's a nuisance. He was like that with the kids when they were little too!:eek::rolleyes: Of the two boys the younger one (14) is a bit too short term in his focus and the older (19) is such a sentimental sook he feels sorry for the poor deprived doggy!!!

Cats are really easy to train - they are very materialistic and don't waste brain power wondering if you love them etc the way a dog does. When I was a child our cat was "trained" to leap around the kitchen from bench to bench like a circus lion before his dinner. He was part siamese and very human oriented so even though we didn't have a clue about training cats he had sort of got the idea of targeting more or less by accident and then we reinforced it with food. They also copy one another so once one has mastered a behavior you'll likely have the others wanting in on the action if the reward appeals to them. You can train just about anything that has a brain - even a very small brain (maybe the smaller the better!) I've trained our fish to color up and put on a display (usually a territorial behavior) to get fed - they learned that faster than I've ever seen anything learn anything!

Alison

k9diabetes
09-04-2009, 10:26 PM
I can't tell you how much I appreciate your sharing your experiences with me Alison. Zac and Jack seem to have so much in common.

With the backyard, we tried making it fun for him to go out there and do calm things as a way of dealing with the Jack Russell terrier problem - alternate sits, etc.

Trouble is, when it was fun to go to the backyard, he wanted to go out fifty times a day and we couldn't tell which ones were because he needed to potty and which ones were just for fun. And he couldn't realistically go out fifty times a day!

So we started doing the backyard for potty only and now we haven't had any accidents in the house in many many months and he's able to "tell" us he needs to go. We lavish praise on him for pooping outside, which must sound pretty funny to the neighbors! "Oh, what a good boy... you pooped!!! Way to go Jack!!!" We were cracking up today how we go gaga praising him over things that most dogs just do without thinking about! LOL

Fortunately, he likes car rides so that's one way he can have fun without getting into trouble. And if we go on Fridays, when Jeff doesn't work, we can usually find a safe place for him to swim or hike. Today we went up into the Sierras to a reservoir that has a really nice sandy beach and there was almost no one there so he played in the water on his 30 foot lead. And chased a squirrel up a tree... I wasn't there to witness it but I understand he jumped quite a distance up the side of the tree after it.

I tend to think myself that Jack doesn't necessarily respond well to the alternate activities and does just need to be rewarded for being calm.

Natalie

k9diabetes
12-10-2009, 08:31 PM
Wow, it's been a long time since I updated about Jack!

We had two sessions with the behaviorist and then we took Jack back to her class for the winter quarter. Jack had a good time and even managed to successfully attend a field trip downtown with all of his classmates. He wasn't the least bit bothered by people or dogs. Overhangs and basement stairwells... those were a different matter. Very very scary! :eek: But he recovered quickly after we left those things behind so I knew he wasn't too stressed.

Day before yesterday my husband had just gotten home from work and we were standing behind the couch talking about his day. Jack had been wandering around the room with his plush frog, stalking it border collie style. And he was getting very frustrated that we weren't paying attention to him or throwing it.

So he picked up his toy, ran headlong for the couch and jumped up. Usually he would just turn around and jump back down but apparently he thought more drastic measures were needed. So instead of stopping he bound up to the back of the couch and launched himself in a graceful, desperate arc past our heads! LOL

Well, he certainly got our attention!

What a melodramatic ham he can be.

Natalie

Patty
12-11-2009, 08:05 AM
I can just picture him launching from the couch...too funny!

k9diabetes
01-03-2010, 12:20 PM
Note to self: Jack doesn't sleep well when surrounded by deer and rabbits.

We rented a cottage at the coast for Christmas Eve and Christmas night with Jack along. Jack has stayed in a hotel in Reno twice and did fine. Got to the cottage and all seemed good. We went over to the park visitor center and walked Jack around, came back and made some dinner, watched a movie...

Then we tried to go to bed. Nope, not happenin'. Jack paced... front door, back door, ticking clock, stove pipe, picture window, repeat repeat repeat. All with his nails clicking on the linoleum... got to trim those.

I stayed up for a while with him and he finally settled down some. So we went to bed at 12:30 and he slept until 4:00 but then was up pacing again. So I got up again (Jeff had gotten a flu bug before we left so I was letting him sleep off his Nyquil) and watched TV - whew, good thing we had cable available. He curled up and slept so at 6:00 I went back to bed and we slept until 10:00.

Best we can figure it was the critters outside. He wanted out constantly and as soon as he got out there, he'd be hyperalert watching and sniffing. At 4:00 we scattered something, possible deer, out from behind the apple tree.

So poor Jack just could not relax until he was so exhausted he couldn't keep his eyes open any more!

Christmas day we went to the beach, which was nice all but the half mile trail back when a bunch of off leash dogs got all over Jack and he had to snarf at one to get him to back off. But otherwise, the beach was great. Jack liked it a lot.

Then we went back, packed up, and drove him Christmas afternoon. I wasn't doing another night like that one!

And I was sick with the flu by the time we got home!

Aah, the holidays!

Natalie

BestBuddy
01-03-2010, 11:06 PM
Well Nat, consider Jack's Christmas present to you the knowledge that spending a night or two in a cottage in the woods is not going to be tranquil and stress free. I am sure it was a great idea at the time.:D

Jenny

Dollydog
01-07-2010, 07:38 AM
That sounded like such an idyllic Christmas...oh well!:confused: :rolleyes: Maybe something on a beach next time??
Jo-Ann :)

k9diabetes
04-17-2010, 01:41 PM
Gosh... so much has happened since I last wrote about Jack! This spring has been a blur for me.

Sometime in January, we started having problems with Jack's anxiety here at home. He was afraid of Jeff when Jeff had his keys and cell phone in his hand on the way out the door in the morning. He's not afraid of Jeff and he's not afraid of the keys or cell phone lying somewhere untouched. But he's afraid of men, including Jeff, who are holding something small like that in their hands. We can only guess that maybe his guy owner threw these kinds of things at him or hit him with them.

We talked with his behaviorist, Sophia Yin (http://www.askdryin.com), and she felt it was time to try medication since even people Jack loves and trusts could scare him if they were holding scary objects.

So early in February Jack started taking Prozac, which in dogs is an anti-anxiety med rather than an anti-depressant.

And I think it's helped him significantly. He's afraid of fewer things and he recovers better and faster if something still scares him.

And we have been using his Manners Minder (http://www.askdryin.com/manners_minder/) to give him treats while Jeff is getting his stuff together to head out the door in the morning so he looks forward to the keys and cell phone coming out.

Plus making much more effort to provide mental stimulation. We enrolled him in Sophia's winter Tricks class and have been training him to do all kinds of tricks. He can sit, lie down, lie on his side, touch, shake, high five, wave, circle around, do a leg weave front and back, knock a box over with his nose, push a box with his nose, step into and onto a box, reverse in sit position, put his paw up on pretty much anything, take his toys out of his box, put his toys back in his box... the big challenge is finding new things to teach him. And every night we play Hide and Seek with treats.

So far so good.

Monday I upped Jack's Prozac from 10mg once a day to 15mg once a day. Jack weighs 54 pounds, which is about 24.5 kgs and the dose is typically 0.5-1.0 mg/kg. So at 10mg Jack was on slightly less than the minimum. But when we had tried 10mg twice a day, he was a zombie.

So after several months at 10, I decided to try 15mg and see how that went.

So Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday when he was a bit sluggish, I chalked it up to the meds. Friday morning he was sluggish so I decided to go back to 10mg. Took him for a walk mid-day. By about 5pm he was obviously in pain. I had been keeping an eye on his back legs since Tuesday too as it seemed like he was holding one stiffly.

By Friday night (of course on a weekend), he was hunching his back and walking very stiffly. In obvious pain. All body functions normal so I waited until this morning and called the vet, who was open half a day today. Got him in at 9:30am.

Poor Mr. Jack has two bad discs at the thoracic/lumbar transition. One has a significant amount of calcification - really obvious on the x-ray. And the other probably will look similar soon and is the one she thinks is currently really hurting him. It was easy to know when she found the right spot as he winced and hunched his back when she touched it.

She says the discs aren't stable and that these episodes could come and go throughout his life. It's not something for surgery - just rest and pain meds until it settles down.

Because of a potential interaction between NSAIDS/Tramadol and Prozac, we are using low doses of the pain meds and keeping the Prozac at 10mg. I gave him 12.5mg of Tramadol about an hour and a half ago and then we have some Metacam to give all this week. I don't know if he's ever had either med, possibly from neutering procedure but otherwise I doubt it.

So even though he's only about 2.5 or 3 years old, he's got a bad back!
:(

Poor guy was really hurting last night. He dragged himself out to potty and when he came back in he buried his head into my shoulder and about crawled into my lap.

Natalie

k9diabetes
04-17-2010, 01:42 PM
Oh, and last weekend we took a three day / two night trip to Carrizo Plain National Monument near Bakersfield. He stayed in two motels and did great!! Both had good potty spots. He never relaxed the entire time he was in the car but it didn't seem to bother him too much. So he travelled really really well - not at all like the coast cottage trip.

Natalie

CarolW
04-17-2010, 04:40 PM
Natalie - I just reviewed your thread since last June - had missed all those posts! Very interesting, and fun to read.

Sophia Yin is a very highly-respected, board-certified veterinary behaviorist, as YOU well know! She differs in some of what she does from what Turid Rugaas does and recommends. (haha! - we've chatted about that before!)

Doesn't matter; what really DOES matter, is that you and Jack (and Jeff) should all be happy - and WELL! And the cats, too!

I'm really sorry about Jack's Bad Back. Bad luck there. Will require some rest, obviously. I'm wishing you and Jack a ton of good luck with that! It's good Jack likes mental-work, as most dogs do - that can tire them, often, even more than physical exercise does. Nose-work of any sort is great, too!

Hoping Jack feels better very, very soon.

Hugs,
Sat, 17 Apr 2010 16:39:14 (PDT)

Patty
04-17-2010, 05:00 PM
Natalie,
I could never get Ali to put her toys back in the box! She will pick up socks that I drop out of the drier though :D I bet Jack has loved all the training.

Glad to hear about the progress but sorry to hear about his back. Poor guy was really hurting last night. He dragged himself out to potty and when he came back in he buried his head into my shoulder and about crawled into my lap.
Awe, that's quite a sweet but sad picture. I hope he feels better real soon! :o

Patty

peggy0
04-17-2010, 05:17 PM
Poor Jack. Its always something. I met a dog at animal diagnostics who couldn't get up one morning, a 4 year old weinmaramer (spelling) . He needed 2 discs removed/replaced and 5 days after the surgery, she couldn't keep him still in the office. Its amazing what they can do to help our pups. I'm glad Jack did well on your trip after his last endeavour Natalie.

k9diabetes
04-17-2010, 06:24 PM
Patty, Jack really doesn't want to put his toys back into his box but will do it if I insist! :) But he LOVES to toss them out of the box.

I like that Ali will do something useful! Sophia Yin taught her Jack Russell Jonesy to bring her a kleenex when she sneezes - really cute! She has a great video of it:
http://www.askdryin.com/player.php?mov=movies/Kleenex2Hifi.mov&wi=480&hi=380

Ironically, on Monday I donated our dog ramp to the local SPCA thrift store cuz we figured it would be at least 10 years before we might ever need it again and hoped to never need it again. And then I had to lift him out of the car...

I might have to go buy it back!

Natalie

AlisonandMia
04-17-2010, 06:29 PM
With Jack's fear of mobile phones in the hands of men particularly, I wonder if someone hasn't used a shock collar on him. If you look up "shock collar" on Google Images the bit the human holds looks awfully like a mobile phone....

Alison

Patty
04-17-2010, 07:04 PM
Patty, Jack really doesn't want to put his toys back into his box but will do it if I insist! :) But he LOVES to toss them out of the box.

I like that Ali will do something useful! Sophia Yin taught her Jack Russell Jonesy to bring her a kleenex when she sneezes

Natalie,
Oh my goodness...she stole our trick! :D That's too funny. I had Ali in training when we were up in Maine. One of the assignments was to come to class the last day having taught your dog a trick and they would give out prizes. Well I'd gotten a horrible cold and had a box of Kleenexes across the room. I was so miserable I was wishing Ali could bring me one, so I used clicker training to teach her to bring me a kleenex when I sneezed. She won a prize out of the ordeal.

I also taught her to pull a dollar bill out of my back pocket when I ask her if she wants to go shopping. My dad says she makes a cute pick pocket. ;)

Because of my job I thought it'd be neat to train her to do some of the things an assistance dog would do. So I bought a Train your own assistance dog DVD. I should send it to you for fun with Jack when he's feeling better. :cool: We only got part way through it.

I hope your ramp's still there if you decide to go back for it!

Alison, that's a very interesting and insightful theory. I wouldn't have thought of that.

Take care,
Patty

BestBuddy
04-18-2010, 12:14 AM
Poor Jack. Finding out so early will make a big difference in keeping him comfortable. You can start some supplements to stop things getting worse. If you haven't already pop over to k9cushings (everything else) and have a look at the mind puzzles Saskia gives to Yunah. I had no idea these things even existed let alone have a dog who would/could do them.:o

Jenny

Patty
04-18-2010, 07:31 AM
Jenny,
I really enjoyed reading through their thread. Thanks for posting this :)
Patty

Patty
04-21-2010, 06:57 AM
How's Jack doing today Natalie?

k9diabetes
04-21-2010, 10:17 AM
Jack has a wood Dog Brick from that line of puzzles. It's rated moderately difficult but is not difficult at all for Jack even after we started blocking the sliders so he had to push those blocks out of the way.

We recently started substituting Hide and Seek at bedtime instead as that is more challenging and takes longer. I hide a half a dozen small treats in various spots - under blankets, inside shoes, in the notch of the door frame - while he waits not so patiently in another room and then I turn him loose to find them. Even that's not very challenging any more but it's still a bit of mental stimulation for him. He uses mainly his nose to find them. And then we tell him "All Done" when he's found them all.

We also tell him "warmer, warmer, warmer" or "colder colder" when he's having a difficult time finding one. I'm sure he listens more to tone than actual words but he hones in on a spot when we say "Hot, hot, hot!!!" It's pretty funny.

With tricks, it's sometimes just a matter of demonstrating what you want him to do with stuff he likes to do. It was very difficult to get him to put his toys back in his box because that's such a precise task compared to tossing them out - he tosses toys all the time. Anything involving his front feet onto things is easy. Anything involving his back feet or standing up... impossible so far.

He's not into being a performing seal so we generally concentrate on the tricks that are fun for him since the main goal is mental stimulation.

Natalie

k9diabetes
04-21-2010, 11:01 AM
He's in a lot less pain than he was on Friday night. Sunday it still hurt enough that he was perfectly happy to stay in and rest. Monday not so much and yesterday even less so. Guess he feels better but I'm still avoiding walking him very much and he will be on Metacam for another three days.

He's tolerating the Metacam really well - that was a relief. I loved what Metacam did for Chris so was hopeful Jack would tolerate it well. He licks it out of a dish too so easy to give.

We suspect that this back issue may be what has limited his exercise tolerance. We were surprised when we adopted him, knowing enough about border collies to know they are considered high energy, and found that 30 minutes of moderate exercise such as loping mixed with walking is about all he can handle. He has weak pasterns, which also may contribute, but we think now that his back may have started to hurt.

We also wonder if the crisis level of pain was generated by our recent trip. Every single moment spent in the car on that trip he stood up. There was no getting him to lie down. Not sure if this could have aggravated it but it was right after we got home that I noticed that he was carrying his back leg in an odd position.

If that is a contributor, we will need to adjust his travel set up to see if we can get him to rest part of the time. Maybe a soft-sided kennel. We have also thought about finding a way to elevate him so he could lay down AND watch what's going on outside the car.

Natalie

Patty
04-21-2010, 05:03 PM
Glad to hear he's feeling better. :)

k9diabetes
04-21-2010, 08:24 PM
Well, this afternoon he seems a little sore. I offered to take him out at 4pm and he really wasn't interested.

He gets Metacam in the evening, about 7pm, and he's on a low dose to avoid an interaction between that and his Prozac so I wonder if maybe the pain control is fading by afternoon. If he's that way again tomorrow afternoon, I'll give him a Tramadol and see if that perks him up.

No luck on getting the ramp back. I bought one at Petco yesterday just so we would have something we could use but I don't like it as well. It is fairly light, which is good, but it's folding rather than telescoping and it's just really awkward to handle. I'll probably cave in and go buy another one of the kind I like since our SUV is pretty tall in the back plus sits on a slanted driveway and, when he feels good again, he's in the car once a day every day. Seems like it's in his best interest to use it daily.

He went up and down it once yesterday. He wasn't crazy about it but he did it.

For anyone needing a ramp, this is the one we like best of the... five! we have tried, or six maybe now with the Petco one!

http://www.amazon.com/Solvit-62337-Deluxe-Telescoping-Ramp/dp/B000RUJEUU/ref=pd_bxgy_k_img_a

Natalie

AlisonandMia
04-22-2010, 01:32 AM
I'm pretty sure the pain med most likely to interact with Prozac is Tramadol rather than a NSAID. I can't find anything about Prozac and NSAIDS being a problem - but plenty about an at-least-theoretical or maybe documented problem with Prozac and Tramadol.

(I'd look into it a bit more but I'm having a lot of problems with a very sl-o-o-o-o-o-w connection this evening - 3 minutes to load a page (if it loads) and then all I get is ads for tooth whitening - aaarrggghhhh!)

Alison

Patty
04-22-2010, 09:25 AM
I love the hot and cold cues for hide and seek :D

Bummer on the ramp Natalie. That looks like a really nice one too. Doesn't it just figure when you finally give something up, you need it again :rolleyes:

k9diabetes
04-22-2010, 09:28 PM
Among the many coincidences/ironies associated with this back problem, I had just a few days before downloaded an article on psychopharmacology for pets and had read about seratonin syndrome, which was one of the concerns the vet had.

I think part of the concern about the NSAID was just a lot of meds passing through the kidneys.

Fortunately so far he's had no problems at all with the meds. I gave him a Tramadol this morning to cover the afternoon and he seemed to feel better.

I posed a "what now" question to the VetPet list and it seems that we really must try to keep him from jumping up on the bed... not sure how that will be accomplished. We put a pet step there but he has no interest in using it. He's willing to come down it if coerced but totally unwilling to use it to get up on the bed. He jumps over it!

I confess I got a bit sad this afternoon when I read about how to deal with dogs who had disc problems.

Jack finally has a home where he's loved and wanted instead of shut up and ignored in the kitchen all the time... it just doesn't seem fair to him to limit so much of what he enjoys. Among his favorite things in life are pouncing on his toys, riding in the car, and flying up onto the bed. He is not at all interested in being lifted up and down or walking on ramps. :(

It just is not fair to Jack who is a sweet soul and hopefully finally happy and feeling like he belongs and that we will look out for him.

Natalie

Margaret Boyle
04-23-2010, 04:09 AM
Hi Natalie,

Sorry to hear Jack has a sore back, I agree with you it is sad when you have to restrict them from doing things.------especially jumping.

I know your Jack loves to play, I hope the discs heal soon and his pain eases up.

Hugs

Marg

Patty
04-23-2010, 08:30 AM
Natalie,
A great explanation on the VetPet list but still quite frustrating that Jack has to deal with this long term.

Just offering my sympathy...:o
Patty

Dollydog
04-23-2010, 10:07 AM
Oh Natalie....it's a sin that Jack has to have this issue after finding such a wonderful home. Keeping Lady still for 6 weeks when she was recuperating from knee surgery (she was 19 months old) was absolutely horrible but we did it. BUT it was only for 6 weeks.
The fact that he has such a great family to live with is the only plus in his situation because we all know he'll have the highest quality of life with you and Jeff. ;)
(((HUGS))) for you all,
Jo-Ann & my Dollydog angel :)

CarolW
04-23-2010, 05:08 PM
Natalie - you and Jack have my LARGE sympathies.

I've been faced with similar problems at times, especially with Kwali. Kwali would SAIL over ANYTHING! I had lovely bed-steps, all in place, for the dogs to go up and down. Kwali? She'd just sail past all of them, jumping off the bed.

Eventually, I worked out a way of preventing her from doing that - putting all kinds of things in the way. She ended up using the bed steps okay.

The living room couch was another one. I blocked that by up-ending a coffee table, so she couldn't get up on the couch at all. Of course, then Kumbi couldn't, either!

There are just times when I think we need to do what is best for our dogs.

With Jack, as this appears likely a life-time problem, I'm wondering if he could, eventually, be taught to use that ramp. What I'd likely try with it would be enclosing it with wire ex-pens on both SIDES, perhaps with a fanned-out entrance-way on the floor - maybe another on the bed or couch?

Which would leave you very little room, if any, to sleep on the bed or sit on the couch!

And so goes Life With A Dog.

MAYBE Jack will heal up enough so eventually he could be allowed to jump a little bit. I don't know. He probably doesn't know what jump a little bit means. (ha!)

Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:06:35 (PDT)

k9diabetes
04-27-2010, 03:30 PM
Poor Jack!

We tried to increase his activity a little over the weekend but he wasn't up for it. Sunday we went to Circus School for Dogs and he was distracted and apathetic - I was pretty sure he was in pain and it was obvious as we walked back to the car.

So back to the vet yesterday.

This time we saw his "official" vet, who just came back from maternity leave. She didn't have many detailed notes from his last visit with another vet so she gave him a pretty thorough physical exam of his reflexes, etc. and found that the paw-turn test response was not so good on the back right foot. So there does seem to be some effect on the nerve from the inflammation around those discs. It's the same foot that I noticed he was carrying oddly in the days before his pain became more obvious.

So Jack has been ordered to two weeks rest - as much rest as we can get him to do. No car rides, no walks of any kind, as little moving around as possible. He's been hemmed into my office and the hallway outside by the baby gates with only beds on the floor to lie on.

It's not a problem during the day time so much - he's used to me being busy on the computer during the day. It's when Jeff gets home at night and he expects to play that it will be difficult.

The vet feels he is pretty stoic about displaying pain so is probably in a lot of pain. We upped his Metacam to a full dose for his size since the smaller dose didn't bother him.

She would like to have him crate-rested but agrees that would probably drive him crazy so we are trying a modified version of it. If he doesn't improve, the next step is to see the neurologist. I love the neurologist - we saw him with Chris - but sure hope we don't have to see him again if you know what I mean.

Natalie

Patty
04-27-2010, 04:05 PM
Oh poor Jack :(

I do hope the restriction will be worth it in that the inflammation will subside and he'll won't need to see the neurologist quite yet.

Patty

ozzi
04-27-2010, 08:05 PM
She would like to have him crate-rested but agrees that would probably drive him crazy so we are trying a modified version of it. If he doesn't improve, the next step is to see the neurologist. I love the neurologist - we saw him with Chris - but sure hope we don't have to see him again if you know what I mean.

Natalie,

I really do know exactly what you mean...ha ha! Ozzi did quite well for several years on an NSAID and we upped his dosage to the maximum for a couple more years, and again he did well. He has had a poor response to the paw-turn response for a couple years as well. After seeing the neurologist, Ozzi started tramadol twice/day and it literally changed his life. We can take walks now, and he is so much more comfortable. I had no idea that he was in such pain until the neurologist told me that, and I saw the difference myself once the pain was treated. I realize that Jack and Ozzi have some of the same back issues, and some that are different, but I was wondering if Jack would feel better if he got some tramadol regularly during this difficult period. I know that you know best...I just hate to see anyone or any animal in pain if it can be avoided, especially since I saw such a dramatic response with Ozzi. I used to use crates for Ozzi and Abby when they were babies, but I don't think either one would be too pleased to revisit that now! So I agree with you about the stress level and frustration of using a crate now. Good luck with Jack and I hope he's feeling well quickly. The NSAID's are an amazing class of drugs.

Ozzi also became unable to jump onto the couch or the bed, and has a great deal of difficulty with the stairs or getting into the car. He did NOT want me helping him EVER! I tried picking him up to get him into the car, and he really resented it. My nephew is in trade school for carpentry and built Ozzi an awesome step that allowed him to get into the car for a while. Now that he is blind, it doesn't work well, and I have to pick him up which is a struggle, but we both manage! He also hates the ramp I bought and won't use it to get on the bed, but insists on being on the bed, so I had to put the mattress on the floor. It works better for him than it does me! Do you think Jack would use a "step" rather than a ramp to get into the car when he's feeling better? I really found this to be a lifesaver...Ozzi's dignity was not sacrificed, and he really was able to use it well while he could see. Just a thought.
Kevin

k9diabetes
04-29-2010, 10:49 PM
Hi Kevin,

I sure wasn't expecting Jack to share this particular problem with Ozzie!

We have been miserly with the Tramadol because apparently there's a significant concern about an interaction between it and the Prozac. The dose allowed is so small that I don't know if it even does anything.

Jack also shares Ozzie's dislike of being assisted! :o

We have successfully lifted him into the SUV but lifting him out is nearly impossible. He hunches down to avoid it and refuses to stand up! He's also not crazy about the ramp but I have gotten him to use it at times. I've ordered another ramp of the kind I liked best and I think ultimately the ramp will be better for his back than the squirming and hunching he does when we try to lift him.

We got a step for the bed... no way, won't use it to go up. Leaps over it, even on leash. He can be coerced into using it to go down.

There is so much irony in this whole situation! :confused:

Besides giving away the best ramp we ever owned just before this problem developed, we bought a bed frame in the past month or two - first time our bed has been raised above the floor since Chris went blind in 2004!!!!!

We are already debating whether to just put it in the garage and go another decade and a half (I hope) with our mattress on the floor!

He is not happy about this sudden change in activity in his life. Doesn't understand it and seems a bit depressed about it. I wish I could explain it to him...

Natalie

ozzi
04-30-2010, 06:41 AM
Natalie,

I knew you would be doing everything you could for Jack! I had forgotten Jack is on Prozac, so the tramadol probably isn't even worth it. I share your frustrations. The "I don't need help" thing must be a macho thing...Jack and Ozzi are exactly alike in that, however Abby would be thrilled if I carried her around all day! ha ha I cannot believe you just got a bed frame, and may have to get rid of it already...the things we do for our pets!!
Kevin

BestBuddy
04-30-2010, 04:40 PM
Wow Natalie, how do you keep a young healthy dog from doing what is fun and natural to him.

I guess if you can convince him that it is more fun to do it your way but then how would you do that.

I didn't realize you had been sleeping on the floor.....I didn't quite go that far but we did buy a bed set that was pretty low to the floor for Bud.

Jenny

k9diabetes
04-30-2010, 08:53 PM
We didn't have much choice after Chris, once blind, made two very graceful leaps to get up onto the bed... front feet tucked in, beautiful rising arc to his body...

Landing place nowhere near the bed :(

He came crashing down onto the floor and that was it - the bed frame went out in the garage so he could step up instead of jump.

I was a little surprised myself to realize it had been five years without a bed frame.

The new ramp came last night and I used it today to get Jack out for a car ride. Drove carefully, tried to keep it brief. He was gonna go stir crazy if he didn't get out of the house. He went to Wendy's and had a junior hamburger (meat only, no bun), two chicken nuggets, and a dollop of whipped cream off of my Frosty-cino... how guilty do I feel?

Natalie

ozzi
05-01-2010, 06:24 AM
LOL Natalie...Ozzi did the same thing. His attempted leaps ended up with him hitting his belly on the frame, and then he fell backwards onto the floor. Of course, like Jack, Ozzi refused help to lift him up! Despite a couple of failed attempts, he continued to try to get up on the bed, actually, insisted! I quickly put the mattress on the floor, and life has been good since...at least for him!

I'm glad the ramp worked for you and Jack. He needed the break! I'm all about keeping them quiet when they need to be, but, at a certain point, cabin fever sets in, so I think it's actually beneficial to "break the rule" for a short time! And a dollop of whipped cream never hurt anyone!! I bet he loved getting out and having a special treat!
Kevin

Dollydog
05-02-2010, 06:18 AM
Glad to know I'm not the only one whose bed was on the floor because of a dog!! :p
I'm also glad to hear that Jack had a fun outing....maybe that will help his depressed self. ;)
(((HUGS)))
Jo-Ann

k9diabetes
05-12-2010, 11:45 AM
Yay! Good news at the vet today. Jack's reflexes and responses are all normal - apparently they were markedly impaired two weeks ago - and he didn't show any signs of pain when the vet pressed on his spine in the affected area, this despite his being off of Metcam for 48 hours prior. He is cleared for a very gradual return to exercise, for now just one trip around the block. We will see how it goes without the Metcam in hopes that we can drop it entirely.

A few days of having to get in and out of the car either held or with the ramp and Jack became a nervous wreck about getting in the car. So we have just been backing it down the driveway until the tailgate is as low as possible and letting him jump in and out. Hopefully eventually he will stop stressing and go back to his previous approach to it. He still likes the ride once in, just does NOT want to be picked up or forced to use the ramp to get in.

I am so thankful he healed up so much because it has set some of his behavioral issues back and he just really needs to be able to go out into the world again.

Natalie

Patty
05-12-2010, 05:23 PM
Yeah!!! That's great news Natalie. Laughing at Mr. Independent and having to back the car down the driveway. Bet Jack's glad to be moving around again :)
Patty

CarolW
05-12-2010, 06:10 PM
Hey, Natalie - so glad Jack is getting better! It's SO hard when a lively dog has to be confined! Keep us posted!

Kumbi agrees with me. Kwali, even more so!

Hugs to you and Jack,

Wed, 12 May 2010 18:10:01 (PDT)

k9diabetes
05-20-2010, 08:10 AM
So far Jack seems to be doing okay with a gradual return to exercise. He doesn't always show us he's in pain until it's bad, though, so I'm going to have the vet do her neuro tests next Tuesday and also ask her if she will show me how to do them so I can monitor him at home.

Two days ago I had Jack in the car and thought he needed a bathroom break so stopped at a riverside park (not his usual swimming spot).

Jack just barely stuck his head into some tall grass and when I looked at him a few minutes later he was covered in ticks. Seriously... I've never seen so many on one dog in such a short time! He had seven ticks on the flap of one ear!! At least 20 over his whole body.

Poor dog could not understand why I was suddenly agitated and swatting at him! :o

I'd just put his Advantix on two days earlier so it should deal with the ones we miss. I found one embedded yesterday that I had to pull and am checking him over periodically.

I hate ticks... really really hate them. I have had the creepy-crawlers nonstop ever since!

Natalie

Patty
05-20-2010, 08:32 AM
Ugh...ticks! Gosh Natalie, that many so fast. And the tiny ones are so hard to find. :(

Good luck with the appointment next Tues.

Patty

peggy0
05-20-2010, 05:42 PM
OOH yuk!! i hate ticks as well. They are awful. Poor Jack

BestBuddy
05-20-2010, 05:57 PM
I haven't ever come across a tick.:eek:
They don't seem to be in the areas where I have lived thank heavens.
Poor Jack, those ticks must have just been planning an attack on the first dog they saw and jumped him.
I am guessing you won't be making a stop at that spot again.

Jenny

ozzi
05-20-2010, 07:01 PM
Ticks ARE nasty! I have pulled so many off of my dogs and myself over the years...even one in February after taking a walk in the woods in Connecticut! One of my previous dogs, Bonkers, had Lyme's disease from a tick and I have had it twice.

Here's a fun fact about ticks: they are all right-handed, and embed themselves with their right hand, so when pulling them off of you or your animal, it's best to grab them with a pair of tweezers and rotate them counterclockwise. I always put them in a piece of tape so they can't escape, and throw them in the trash.

peggy0
05-20-2010, 07:13 PM
Never heard the right handed thing before. Geez Kevin Lymes disease is nasty! Stay out of the woods man

k9diabetes
05-22-2010, 01:26 PM
So far, the only other tick we have seen is one dead one on the carpet yesterday. Looks like the Advantix is doing its job.

Fortunately these are big honking dog ticks and Jack walked into them white chest first so most of them were easy to find. But they are sneaky little buggers who dig in quick.

Kevin - Yikes! Lyme disease seems to be almost more common in the east than in the west. As much as I hate using Advantix on Jack, I hate ticks and tick diseases even more and it seems like too many of the places we would take him are infested.

We had a huge infestation right here at home actually with Chris. He LOVED bunny dens and I made the mistake of taking him to a weedy field near our house to sniff the bunny dens. He apparently brought home a boatload of ticks - soft and hard ones - and they were everywhere... it was so gross. My husband was working nights at the time so I worked late into the night too and I would look over and find multiple ticks crawling up the walls at night. We sprayed and sprayed and eventually got rid of them but it took a while.

Worst of all here is that we have them year round. Deer ticks it turns out are most active in the winter...

You are so right - never again to that spot! He didn't even go to the bathroom!! :mad:

Natalie

ozzi
05-22-2010, 06:18 PM
So, here's another fun fact! Lyme Disease was first identified in 1975 in Lyme, CT, hence the name. It is VERY prevalent in the Northeast, and Ipswich has the highest rate of Lyme's in the country. Specifically, the road that I live on!! Here's a link from 1989 discussing Lyme's on my street...please know that we don't hire hunters to shoot deer anymore!
Kevin
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/03/us/ipswich-journal-fighting-lyme-disease-at-its-worst.html

AlisonandMia
05-22-2010, 06:52 PM
We live in terror of ticks in our area as, while we or our animals are very, very unlikely to catch a tick-borne disease (not totally impossible though) we have the dreaded paralysis tick. (http://www.vetstop.com.au/info/tick.asp) Tick season is basically all the warmer months - which is probably about 10 months of the year these days and in these parts.

If a dog gets a tick here, and it is one of the nasty ones (we have non-paralysis ticks too), it often means about 3 days at the vet, at least $400.00 worth of anti-venom (last time I heard) and no guarantee of success - although usually they pull through but it does depend on lots of things. My sister-in-law lost an elderly dog to a tick some years ago.

We just have to plaster on the Advantix, check them regularly (including inside the mouth!), avoid dense scrubby, grassy environments - and hope for the best. We also have to check ourselves of course.
At least one or two kids end up in hospital with tick paralysis most years and it is a real problem for non-marsupial mammals such as fruit bats - they literally fall out of the trees, poor things. The marsupials seem to be more or less immune to the tick toxin. Out in the rural areas around Brisbane I've heard of people going to get their mail at the end of a 50 foot drive way and coming back with several ticks attached!:eek::eek::eek:

I saw something interesting on TV once - there were these scientists trapping ticks by spreading out a large white bedsheet with a lump of dry ice (CO2) in the middle. The ticks just converged on the dry ice thinking (if ticks think which they probably don't) that all the CO2 was the breath of a large juicy animal. They caught what looked like hundreds. I've often wondered if that technique couldn't be used to reduce the number of ticks in an area like a back yard, especially if you repeated the treatment regularly. It would certainly give you an idea of the level of threat in an area.

Zac absolutely hates having Advantix applied (it never seemed to worry Mia one little bit). Anyone else have a dog that hates Advantix? It does sting in wounds and maybe the first time applied it he had a tiny scratch on the area and the horror of it all has stayed with him. He is a great "catastrophizer", our Zac, so that is more than likely the explanation.

Alison

k9diabetes
05-25-2010, 11:17 AM
There seriously isn't a word that adequately conveys how I feel about ticks! That's absolutely horrible Alison!!

Jack does not seem to be bothered by Advantix and no skin reaction thank goodness cuz I don't know what we would do without it. Mostly it's just tricky to keep him standing while we apply it so it doesn't run into his fur.

We found another one embedded but I think in the process of dying last night. She was not dead but was kind of shriveled up and died quickly after I dropped her into some alcohol.

We have a "Tick Key" that is just a piece of metal with a slot that gets narrower and narrower. You wrap it around the tick and then pull gently sideways to dislodge them.

http://www.amazon.com/Purple-Tick-Key-Removal-Tool/dp/B001HRFXWK (http://www.amazon.com/Purple-Tick-Key-Removal-Tool/dp/B001HRFXWK)



http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41luXne%2BBiL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

peggy0
05-25-2010, 07:18 PM
I LOVE the dry ice concept. I bet you'd gather up a million mosquitoes with that as well.

Patty
05-25-2010, 08:44 PM
There was a link to "How to build a dry ice trap" in one of the B-naturals newsletters: http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/tick-borne-disease-in-dogs-part-ii/

Link to the trap: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/54980/how_to_build_a_dry_ice_tick_trap_and.html?cat=6

Was an interesting read.

Tikobird
05-25-2010, 08:55 PM
Thanks for the link for the Tick Key - just purchased one...ticks here in rural Tennessee are out of control this year...our house is in the middle of 50 acres surrounded by woods...my 2 young chocolate labs spend a good part of the day running thru those woods. We brush them before letting the in the house but it's tough spotting them on chocolate labs & have banned them from our bedroom since finding a tick on the bed!!! Hate them little things!

k9diabetes
05-26-2010, 08:54 AM
Jack had a quick vet exam yesterday to assess his back because to me he seems to have some good days and some not so good days since allowing him to exercise a bit.

He did fine on the paw flip test (Conscious proprioceptive!) so that's good news that the spinal cord seems to be functioning better. But he flinched when she palpated his back along those vertebrae.

Given that it's been about 7 weeks since his original episode of severe pain, not a lot of progress.

So we decided to do the neurology consult as Jack is facing many many years of back pain and limitations. He goes next Tuesday to see Dr. Kortz, who, fortunately, is a very kind, quiet person. But since Dr. Kortz is a guy, Jack may be afraid of him. Will have to hope that his Prozac has relieved enough anxiety that he can manage it.

I don't know what we will come out with. Could be there's really nothing to be done for him but manage it - both good news and bad news as any more serious diagnostics involve anesthesia and sticking needles in places that are risky... I don't know what I hope the answer is.

I forget whether I mentioned already that Jack's vet's office currently has plastic inflatable parasites hanging from the ceiling! LOL The tick doesn't look nearly as scary as the real thing, thank goodness. There is a flea, a tick, a round worm, and a tape worm! :p

Natalie

Patty
05-26-2010, 09:30 AM
I hope the neurology visit is encouraging Natalie.

Guess plastic bugs hanging over your head while you wait is a good attention grabber, lol.

Patty

peggy0
05-26-2010, 03:37 PM
Wishing Jack well on his visit Natalie. Bugs sound fun@!

Tikobird
05-27-2010, 09:33 AM
Good luck with the tests...Jack's in our prayers!

k9diabetes
05-28-2010, 03:35 PM
LOL... this was in my email box just now:

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2010/04may_ticksat/

ozzi
05-28-2010, 05:57 PM
Natalie,
I'll be interested in hearing about Jack's diagnosis. When Ozzi saw the neurologist, he had the exact same reaction of great pain when the doctor palpated over his lumbar spine. The neurologist felt it was lumbosacral stenosis and some herniated discs, although I never did follow through with an MRI, for several reasons. He did look at plain films of Ozzi's lumbar spine, but that was as far as we went with the testing. Hoping things go well for you on Tuesday!
Kevin

k9diabetes
06-02-2010, 09:44 PM
We had our consult yesterday and I am happy to report that Jack and Dr. Kortz got on very well. This is my second consult with Dr. Kortz and in both he has wound up sitting on the floor at dog level, one of the many things I like about him.

He has asked us to "challenge" Jack this week with longer periods of exercise and see how he handles that as all of his tests of his reflexes, etc. gave positive results yesterday. Jack had been having a good two days after what seemed like a pain day.

If Jack winds up being in pain again, he would opt to prescribe a stronger anti-inflammatory, prednisone... ugh... and/or gabapentin. And only go to a myelogram if there was some indication that the spinal cord was again having problems. We talked about the risks - of anesthesia and of a reaction to the contrast agent - of the myelogram.

He wants us to try to keep Jack's exercise to walking or swimming where he isn't hurling himself into the water as he usually does. I think if we wade out a way with him, we could make that work. Most important, he says, is to avoid things that flex the spine vertically or hoizontally.

Of course everything Jack does flexes his spine. His favorite thing in the world is to pounce on his toys!

After his appointment and a walk, we took him to the park in the evening and before too long his tail was tucked between his legs and he seemed sore. But today he seems okay... it is hard to know if what we are seeing is spinal or something else.

So for now we are upping his exercise with as little flexing of the spine as possible and will see how it goes.

The day before, we went to the same park and there were about 25 rabbits at the archery range! Jack was trilling like crazy - he's never seen that many rabbits in one place!

I think it will be weighing how many days are good days and how many are bad days. I suspect he's had this the entire time we have had him and that his seeming tired after a long hike was actually back pain. So we may be approaching what was normal for him and are just more aware now of what his being tired actually means.

Natalie

Margaret Boyle
06-03-2010, 06:07 AM
Natalie,

I hope things go well for wee Jack and he does not have a lot of back pain with the increased exercise :)

It is worrying when you have to constantly watch that they are not overdoing things. I know you are expert at watching Natalie so he will be fine;)

Hugs

Marg

Patty
06-03-2010, 07:33 AM
Really hoping he has more good days than bad Natalie and it doesn't come to having to use a stronger med like neurontin or pred.

Glad he got along with the male doc fine too ;)

Whoa, that many rabbits would drop Ali's blood sugar to the basement in 2 seconds flat! She'd think she went to heaven if allowed to chase them all :D I bet Jack was going crazy!

Patty

Joan
06-03-2010, 09:32 AM
I belong to a handicapped pets site, that is absolutely excellent. The admin there is a friend, Carol. There is no one in the world who has more experience with spine, disc and nerve troubles. She would be happy to give you some advice, on or off the forum. You would love her, and if anyone can help in a practical way it is she.

http://handicappedpet.net/helppets/viewforum.php?f=4

sorry I should have added that we get a lot of IVDD there, and they are certainly not handicapped, but still in need of assistance, for recuperation and prevention of further complications.

k9diabetes
06-07-2010, 05:43 PM
Thanks Joan - I signed up the other day.

So far, challenging Jack seems to be going well. I gave him Metacam for a couple of days but not the last two and he seems to be doing okay. I think we may have gotten him back to baseline and will just keep an eye on it for now.

Natalie

k9diabetes
10-14-2010, 10:50 AM
Yesterday was the second anniversary of our adoption of Jack and his third birthday!

Well, more or less. We don't know exactly when he was born but the rescue told us he was about a year old when we adopted him on October 13, 2008, so we set that as his birthday.

He got a bowl of vanilla ice cream with a canine peanut butter cookie on top and a trip to the river to swim and splash around. :) Plus I stuck three candles in the top of a hamburger bun (that he didn't eat) and we sang happy birthday! LOL Pretty silly. Jack didn't like the smoke from the match and ran around snorting and sneezing. :o

Jack has been working on Nose Work. I took a class but Jack was already searching the house for treats so pretty much knew how to do it. So we skipped the box searches and went straight to making his house searches more challenging. Last week in two brief sessions I transitioned him from finding a direct food reward to finding a scent! He knows exactly what it means when he finds it - I open up the magic treat bag and treats rain down! So he loves the game.

Happy Birthday Jack,

Natalie

Margaret Boyle
10-14-2010, 11:13 AM
Yesterday was the second anniversary of our adoption of Jack and his third birthday!

Well, more or less. We don't know exactly when he was born but the rescue told us he was about a year old when we adopted him on October 13, 2008, so we set that as his birthday.

He got a bowl of vanilla ice cream with a canine peanut butter cookie on top and a trip to the river to swim and splash around. :) Plus I stuck three candles in the top of a hamburger bun (that he didn't eat) and we sang happy birthday! LOL Pretty silly. Jack didn't like the smoke from the match and ran around snorting and sneezing. :o

Jack has been working on Nose Work. I took a class but Jack was already searching the house for treats so pretty much knew how to do it. So we skipped the box searches and went straight to making his house searches more challenging. Last week in two brief sessions I transitioned him from finding a direct food reward to finding a scent! He knows exactly what it means when he finds it - I open up the magic treat bag and treats rain down! So he loves the game.

Happy Birthday Jack,

Natalie

Happy Birthday Jack
Ican just picture you singing happy bithday Natalie:D

Hugs

Marg

Patty
10-14-2010, 11:45 AM
HAPPY BIRTHDAY Jack!!!!

What a GREAT celebration!!! Would have loved a pic of the B-day bun, LOL. :D

I bet Jack just loves the nose work games!

Patty

pgcor
10-14-2010, 12:09 PM
Wow, times flies Natalie. Jack is three years old already?! A BIG HUG AND A HAPPY BIRTHDAY FROM ME AND PIP!!!!

bgdavis
10-14-2010, 12:39 PM
Happy Birthday and Adoption Day, Jack and Natalie! May there be many, many more!

Bonnie and Angel Criss

k9diabetes
10-14-2010, 01:43 PM
There is video of the deed but I'm in it so chances are no one but Jeff and I will ever see it! ;) I just love having my picture taken...

Dollydog
10-15-2010, 06:43 AM
Happy Birthday and Happy Adoption day to Jack and Natalie and Jeff!! It doesn't seem like it was 2 years ago that he came to live at your house.

The search game has given me an idea of how to keep Victoria busy during the winter. She is such a hunter and is always searching so maybe we'll have her hunt for some treats inside when she can't be outside!

If my picture is starting to show up on the web....why can't yours be too?? We take terrible pictures....and how did we get to be so old? :confused:

k9diabetes
10-16-2010, 10:55 PM
It took a long time before my husband could convince me to let him take a picture with me in it. No way I'm showin' em to anybody!

I don't know how I got so old. I'm older now than I picture my parents in my mind... it's weird.

Okay... I guess this one is okay to show. I mixed his ice cream with milk so it was milkshake consistency. Otherwise, he gulps up the whole scoop at once (I speak from experience). And that's three candles and the match stuck in the mini hamburger bun.

http://www.k9diabetes.com/userimages/Jackturns3.jpg

Patty
10-17-2010, 06:11 AM
Love it, love it, love it! LOL. Jack just looks like he's waiting for the "GO" signal! :D;)

Margaret Boyle
10-17-2010, 07:59 AM
Great picture Natalie,

Jack's all eager to go:D

Ditto I do not like my photo's in the pictures either.........as I am getting "old" too:eek:

Hugs

Margaret

k9diabetes
10-17-2010, 09:21 AM
There's nothing quite like the intensity of a border collie. He's so ADHD most of the time but when he goes into border collie mode, I can see why the sheep pay attention.

peggy0
10-17-2010, 06:38 PM
He's a sweetie!!!! Happy Birthday Jack and manymany many healthy more

Noodle
10-22-2010, 06:31 PM
A Belated Very Happy Birthday to Jack!! :D

ozzi
10-23-2010, 05:57 PM
HAPPY BELATED BIRTHDAY JACK!!!

What a handsome and lucky guy Jack is!!!! :D
Kevin

k9diabetes
11-01-2010, 09:53 PM
I had occasion to inventory Jack's plush toys tonight... he might be just a little bit spoiled.

2 stuffed foxes, a pink pig, a squirrel, a chipmunk, a soccer ball and a football, a frog, 3 bunnies! (two small realistic looking ones and a fufu bunny), a starling (really cute with light tipped fur and orange legs), and a ducky.

He knows the name of the frog and soccer ball well and sort of knows the name of his squirrel.

They are all sitting in his toy box on top of my desk at the moment and he would like them back, thank you very much!

I won’t even go into all the treats in the cupboard.


Natalie

Oops - forgot the raccoon!

k9diabetes
11-28-2010, 04:20 PM
Poor Jack's back has been giving him a really hard time. We did Metacam for 2.5 weeks and that improved it quite a bit but didn't contain it entirely. Took him off of it for a while but he's back on it again.

Last week we started some acupuncture and we will see what that does for him.

He's been in enough pain that his behavior was regressing a few weeks ago. That's when we started the Metacam again.

I'm not sure if it's the cold or whether it's just been simmering and got to be too much to manage with medication.

We have been researching long-term options for pain control as I hope we will have him with us for more than a decade. It's a long time to be in pain...

Natalie

pgcor
11-29-2010, 11:31 AM
Oh, that's disappointing Natalie. I'm so sorry Jack is having such pain. But, equally glad you have some choices for control. My Buddy had back problems and I hated to see it! Perhaps it is the cold - he's so young though. He couldn't be in a better home though. Remind me to come back as your dog in my next life.

peggy0
11-29-2010, 02:49 PM
Poor Jack. Maybe the weather? I hope he gets to feeling better. Hope the accupuncture works

Patty
11-29-2010, 06:28 PM
Let us know if you see improvements with the acupuncture. Really hoping it helps alleviate some of his pain.
Patty

CarolW
11-29-2010, 08:07 PM
I think the cold weather could have a LOT to do with Jack's pain. Would he be willing, do you think, to wear a coat? Can't remember if you said something about that before.

I always had an impossible time trying to fit Kwali and Kumbi with coats, because of their shape.

http://www.coherentdog.org/kkcoats.php

and

http://www.coherentdog.org/kumbiponcho.php

and scroll down to see his Very Olde raincoat - some 25 years old.

During my recent move, I LOST my bag of dog-coats!

Fortunately, I had bought a coat for Camellia somewhat ahead, and when my groomer clipped her down, at my request, very short, I tried the coat on her, cut a hole, supported by duct tape, for the harness-ring to come through. This coat fits Camellia perfectly - AMAZING! I never had such a thing happen before!

I did learn, first with Kumbi, NOT to try to put a harness on OVER a coat. The harness just slips around, pulling the coat every-which-way - how useless can you get!

Anyway, a coat does need to fit reasonably well for the dog to be comfortable, but I think it can make a big difference, helping control pain that results from chilling or other exposure.

There are also people who make custom coats; you can search on the web to look for those.

I also think the acupuncture can help, quite a lot. I've had acupuncture treatments, and they were great for me. Don't ask me to explain how it works, though! I had some with, and some without, electrical stimulation. My acupuncturist was highly-qualified, and very skilled. I'm so glad people are enlightened enough to use acupuncture for dogs, too.

Keep us posted, will you, Natalie? Thanks! Meantime, best wishes to Jack (and to Kitty Gus, too).

Mon, 29 Nov 2010 20:07:20 (PST)

k9diabetes
12-13-2010, 01:41 PM
After three acupuncture treatments and weeks of Metacm, Jack is not only not better but is worse. He's twisting his back legs when he walks and even moderate car rides of 20 or 30 minutes or walks of 10 or 15 minutes having him limping and tucking his tail.

Saturday he rested the entire day because I was too sick myself to do anything with him and Sunday his limping was as bad as it's been in a long time and worse after a short car ride and walk.

So we are going back to the neurologist tomorrow to see if perhaps a disc is bulging or the inflammation is out of control again. I'd rather spend the $100 on the neurologist at this point to get a better picture of exactly what's happening with him.

Natalie

buddingartist
12-13-2010, 05:25 PM
So sorry Natalie. It must be just gutwrenching to watch his suffer like that.

Good luck tomorrow. $100.00 for a neurologist WOW. It costs me 75% of that for a plain ol vet's visit.

Louise

Patty
12-13-2010, 06:17 PM
Oh Natalie, I wish I could do more than just offer you and Jack my sympathy.

Praying the neurologist will come up with some helpful answers,
Patty

gail
12-13-2010, 06:30 PM
Natalie... good luck tomorrow with Jack. We are all pulling for him. Gail

CarolW
12-13-2010, 07:47 PM
Waving my rather unreliable magic wand, in an effort to collect the Forces of the Universe in your favor Natalie - and in Jack's. I'll watch for your report from the neurologist.

Hope you, too, feel better soon; your work here is so magnificent; I stay interested, even though Kumbi died. I've never seen any forum as good as this one.

Jack - Camellia sends you her great sympathy, and Kwali and Kumbi rain down licks and wags on you from the Bridge. Feel better soon!

Love and hugs,
Mon, 13 Dec 2010 19:46:29 (PST)

peggy0
12-14-2010, 04:56 AM
Poor Jack. I hope they figure it out for you and for Jack Natalie. Let us know how he is doing poor baby

pgcor
12-14-2010, 07:20 AM
Oh boy, I feel bad for you and Jack. Poor guy just can't catch a break. I remember my Shih Tzu having spinal issues due to his long back. All we could do was treat the bouts of lameness with pain killers. But, that was many years ago, so hopefully there is something better for Jack?

No wonder he's so anxious. I read you were doing better too Natalie. When it rains it pours.....

silkiegal
12-14-2010, 12:04 PM
I am sorry to hear about Jack's back! Silkie had back surgery for herniated discs. He became paralyzed in just a couple of days. But that is ONLY TEMPORARY...surgery will fix that. It was horrible. He had surgery, and after rehab, and patience, he was walking again in a month. Now he is running and doing everything as usual, just no jumping up and down. I hope all is ok, and know, in the worse case senario, surgery is an option. We got through it! If you have questions, I am happy to answer. We have been through 2 major surgerys and now diabetes. (For anxiety, I took perscribed xanax, and it helped, for Jack too!!)

Silkigal

Margaret Boyle
12-14-2010, 01:57 PM
Natalie,

Saying prayers and having positive thoughts for wee Jack:)

I hope everything goes well at the Neurologist I hate them having pain:(

Hugs

Margaret

Patty
12-14-2010, 02:54 PM
Anxious to hear how the visit went.

buddingartist
12-14-2010, 04:10 PM
So am I. I've been checking this thread periodically all day.

Hope all with well with Jack and Natalie

Louise

Dollydog
12-14-2010, 07:31 PM
Just checking in too to see how it's going....
Jo-Ann

SeattleCraig
12-14-2010, 08:35 PM
add my best thoughts to Jack and his worried ma.

I hope the appointment was productive today.

k9diabetes
12-14-2010, 09:55 PM
I am sorry to be so slow to get back to the forum and to report on our visit. I have a huge pile of work to do this week and on top of that have had serious trouble sleeping the past two nights. Might be the last of the flu bug as I didn't sleep at all the day I felt so terrible and usually I would. I feel pretty good now but I can tell that there's some vestiges of the flu left.

The neurologist was extremely harried today. I got the impression there was something critical going on in the back with another animal and he had to leave the room rather abruptly for a few minutes mid-appointment. So I wasn't able to get all of the information that I needed.

The potential solutions haven't changed. I mostly wanted him to run his tests and see how much impairment there seems to be.

So... have I bored you silly before getting to the point?

He did the pinch and proprioception tests and was able to see the stiff gait and limping. One thing he didn't find was signs of pain when he pressed on the area where the discs are damaged. But he does believe that there is pain. His feeling is that there is currently some reduction in communication across the spinal cord and that Jack is rotating his legs when he walks because he doesn't have a clear sense of where they are.

I asked if we needed to do something equivalent to crate rest and he felt like we basically are resting him in that his activity is pretty limited. He's not doing anything strenuous.

Options, same as before, are:

- Gabapentin (Neurontin) which treats pain generated by nerves.

- Steroids - antiinflammatory

- Better diagnostics: MRI or Myeologram that would possibly lead to surgery.

Jeff and I both agree we would want MRI cuz of the risks of a Myelogram. And that surgery has to have a demonstrably very good chance of making the situation better.

I sometimes feel like the neurologist gets frustrated because I don't want to go the steroid route unless I have to. But I've been there before and I'd really like for Jack not to be a diabetic or have Cushing's disease (call me crazy) so I just can't make myself put it at the top of the list. I will do it if we have to.

And since he's not paralyzed or incontinent or falling down, we're not ready to go to an MRI yet either - not until we have to resort to a much more serious and invasive treatment if there is one.

So that leaves Gabapentin at the top of the list, followed by steroids, followed by MRI to see if anything else can be done. Jeff is not on board with Gabapentin yet but I think it's worth trying as the side effects and risks are smallest.

One thing I didn't get to ask is why Gabapentin alone or steroids alone would work... maybe I'm confused but my understanding is that they target very different pathways - nerve excitability versus inflammation. So if inflammation is behind the impairment, why should Gabapentin iimprove his gait? It seems like it might reduce the pain but not improve spinal cord function.

As far as what to do about my questions... I may make another appointment and just leave Jack at home. And in the meantime, we may be able to try to Gabapentin and see if it helps.

Natalie

CarolW
12-15-2010, 02:36 AM
Sorry about the harried neurologist; that does make things difficult, especially when you are recovering from the flu and not yet fully recovered!

(And I noticed you did a lot of work on the diabetes forum too.)

If I may make a recommendation, which I am also trying to implement for myself (look how well I'm doing), catching up on sleep might be a big help. (I am working on it for me!)

Wishing you and Jack all the best!

BIG HUGS and thanks for all you do!

Wed, 15 Dec 2010 02:35:07 (PST)