Angel Monk... passed away March 6, 2012 [Archive] - Diabetes in Dogs: The k9diabetes.com Forum

Debbie & Apollo

09-02-2008, 06:03 PM

Hi - -- if you think there may be pancretitis I would take Monk in for a test. It would so much easier to get a handle on it before it gets blown out of control and there is a need for IV fluids etc...

can you pin point anything different about when he throws up??
time of day, food habit -- gobbling up the food --- activity after eating???

When Apollo had his bouts (at least 3 big ones) he really was sick -- and had the runs... no desire to eat... changing his food was the best thing we did -- and we now give him Denosyl and Milk Thistle... also a great move -- his last blood work up was soooo much better.

good luck.
Debbie and Apollo

We Hope

09-02-2008, 06:26 PM

I'd take Monk in for a checkup as soon as you can. Just as there are subclinical or hidden infections, there can be subclinical pancreas problems--

http://www.uq.edu.au/ccah/index.html?page=43392&pid=41544

Beyond Insulin Therapy: Achieving Optimal Control in Diabetic Dogs
Dr. Fleeman and Rand 2005

Page 2

Pancreatitis

"Subclinical exocrine (part of the pancreas involved in digestion--endocrine portion is involved in insulin production) pancreatic disease is also known to be frequent in diabetic dogs based on evidence from study of serum canine pancreatic lipase immunoreactivity (cPLI) , which is a sensitive marker for pancreatic inflammation in dogs. In long term diabetic dogs, with no clinical evidence of exocrine pancreatic disease, serum cPLI concenrations in the diagnostic range for pancreatitis were found in 2 of 12 (17%) dogs, with a further 4 (33%) recording increases in cPLI values that did not reach the diagnostic cut off values for pancreatitis. An additional 2 (17%) dogs had laboratory evidence of exocrine pancreas deficiency (unpublished data)."

So while these dogs were showing no outward signs of having either pancreatitis or maldigestion syndrome, their lab tests did pick up signs of pancreatic problems.

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Exocrine_pancreas

I think you'll feel better if you take him in to see about this.

Kathy

bowens2

09-03-2008, 05:58 PM

I backed off his insulin by 1/2 unit and he is still registering negative so even if it is not the cause of his occasionally throwing up, I imagine he was going pretty low. I will be at the vets tomorrow to pick up food and will check to see if they think they should see him. He is fine, happy, and frisky. I really don't want to subject him to tests if we don't have to.

eyelostit

09-03-2008, 11:41 PM

Hope Monkey is doing better today

k9diabetes

09-13-2008, 05:18 PM

Hi Betty,

How is Monk doing?

Natalie

bowens2

09-17-2008, 08:40 AM

He is doing great. He has not thrown up again as far as I know. He was limping. I think he stepped on a splinter or something but he was fine the next day what ever it was.

Ricksma

09-17-2008, 04:00 PM

Betty, I had just posted on Ricky's thread that he sometimes throws up a yellow foamy material...then seems fine afterward. Even though he seemed okay, I wanted to make sure, so I got his lab work done a little early. Everything was fine, so maybe Monk is doing the same thing...we will keep our fingers crossed that everything is okay for him, too.

Love and hugs, Teresa and Ricky

rhodesian46

09-17-2008, 06:21 PM

Glad Monk isn't vomiting. anymore I had Dr B call in a script of Cerenia .This is an anti nausea med for dogs. I comes in 4 packs (1 a day.) It works fantastic to stop the vomiting. I am to have this on hand if Pebbles vomits again I think (since all diabetic dogs are more prone to get pancreatitis) that we should all have this med just in case.ASk your vet about it but don't buy it from them I paid $43 for it 2 weeks ago Got Dr to call it in to petshed.com for $16 a 4 pk. A big savings Hope Monk doesn't throw up again.

k9diabetes

09-18-2008, 11:36 AM

I love good news!! :) Natalie

bowens2

01-30-2009, 01:51 PM

Monkey's insulin (Lantus) is now up to $91.56. I have decided when it hits $100 I will change to a different type of insulin and pray it doesn't screw him up. It has gone up consistently $5.00 every 6 months. He goes thru one vile about every 32 days. The normal price on this insulin is $101.47 but they give me a senior discount although I don't think I qualify but I'm not going to argue with them about that. I think they felt sorry for me the first time I filled the prescription in 2006 because I was crying (you know "that how can this be happening to my fur baby feeling" - The first stage of finding out your dog is a diabetic - denial - "no not my dog and maybe it's a mistake - I just can't do this!")

I recently started volunteering at a dog shelter to get my dog fix. Ever since my daughter adopted Dahli, I have been craving another dog (since she won't give me Dahli) similar to Dahli. I went to this shelter to look at a 6 mo American Bull but I let her slip thru my hands to a nice young couple. But I am volunteering to get this dog thing out of my system and even though it is hard work, it is very rewarding.

k9diabetes

01-30-2009, 02:03 PM

I'm so excited to get some news from you and Monk... very sorry about the price of Lantus!! I'm hoping that financial pressure will keep insulins like NPH around for a long time, for dogs and people with no health insurance.

We take Jack to the dog park every day so we have been meeting all kinds of dogs. It's a lot of fun for us too. Today we met Maggie (Irish Setter), Rocky (Aus. shepherd), Thunder (lab mix), and Sienna (vizsla), along with another half dozen whose names we didn't get. Jack has a new hurl-a-squirrel frisbee that he did his best to keep away from the rest of them.

I've been tempted, foolishly, once or twice to take a second dog but then I remember that we are still hauling ourselves over and around kitty gates and barely managing with one dog!

Maybe if Monk successfully changes over to NPH you will be able to afford to add another dog to your pack!

Natalie

We Hope

01-30-2009, 02:08 PM

Have you done any internet pricing re: buying Lantus from Canada? Most of the time, the Canadian prices for drugs are less than what we pay here because they have price controls.

When it became impossible to get Lilly's old Iletin II Lente in the US not long after discontinuation, I wanted a back-up vial in the house. I was able to get one at a Canadian pharmacy online. The cost of the vial was about half of what I was paying for the same insulin here in the US.

You might want to do some internet research before making that decision.

Kathy

PS--all insulin in Canada is available without needing a prescription. ;)

eyelostit

01-30-2009, 09:31 PM

I use Canada Vet for my heartworm and I think an RX way back, I'd try it, I had no idea your insulin cost that much, thats a shame.:(

bowens2

02-01-2009, 08:33 AM

I checked Canada online pharmacies back when Monkey was first diagnosed and there was no differnce in price unless I purchased 10 vials which besides having to have the money upfront, I am kind of leary of doing. What if it all expired in 3 mo or if Monk becomes sick and has to go on another insulin. Seems like every time I buy ink cartridges upfront, my printer breaks and I have a cabinet full of ink cartridges I can no longer use.

We Hope

02-01-2009, 08:45 AM

You might want to check on these people:

http://www.diabetesexpress.ca/product_info.php/manufacturers_id/147/products_id/555

Diabetes Express, a division of Hilary's Pharmacy, Toronto, CA.

Lantus® (Insulin Glargine)
100IU/ml (U-100) 10 ml Vial
$65.95CAD

http://www.diabetesexpress.ca/shipping.php

"Across Canada, shipping is FREE for orders over $150.00 before taxes.
Our flat fee for orders below $150.00 is $7.95

US orders must be phoned in as we carry many items that cannot be shipped across the border. Please call 1-866-418-3392 for details."

bowens2

02-01-2009, 09:57 AM

Great Thanks! I will do that. Thank you so much.

bowens2

02-01-2009, 09:58 AM

I checked it. That is fantastic! You have made me one happy camper! You don't know how much I appreciate that.

bowens2

02-01-2009, 10:08 AM

Figured it was too good to be true. Went thru the whole process to order 3 vials and when I filled out the info it asked for country and only gives you Canada as a choice. They don't ship out of Canada.

Thank you so much though, maybe that will change in the near future.

I am going to call on Monday though and see if there is any way around this. When you go to shipping they say something about shipping to the US plus I wonder if you need a prescription so I am not giving up yet.

We Hope

02-01-2009, 10:28 AM

Do call them--if you look at their instructions, it tells you that only Canadian orders can be done on website--US orders need to be phoned in-

http://www.diabetesexpress.ca/shipping.php

"US orders must be phoned in as we carry many items that cannot be shipped across the border. Please call 1-866-418-3392 for details."

Because insulin was isolated in Canada, there is a law there which says that no prescriptions are necessary for any insulin.

Hope you can get some good news when you contact them! :)

Kathy

bowens2

02-03-2009, 10:26 AM

Nope they won't ship to me in the US. However, there were a couple of other sites that were selling it for $75 so if the shipping is free or not over like $7 bucks it may be worth it to buy online.

When I checked in 2006 there was only one site who sold it in Canada and they were about the same price that I was paying by the time I paid shipping.

We Hope

02-03-2009, 01:09 PM

Insulin used to flow a lot "freer" across the Canadian border. A few years ago, all of the "big three"--Lily, Novo-Nordisk and Sanofi-Aventis, decided to try to limit the number of vials they were shipping to Canada, based on their estimates of how many Canadians were insulin users.

They became aware that many people in the US were taking advantage of Canada's price controls and were getting their insulin and a lot of other pricey meds from Canada at some VERY nice savings to them. In any country (which is most of the rest of the world) where there are price controls on medications, pharmaceutical companies make only modest profits on the sales of their drugs.

People in the US buying their meds from Canada were cutting into their "sky's the limit" profits in the US--this was their attempt to force people in the US to pay their prices.

Looking around on the internet can't hurt--you might find a pharmacy who's willing to send it here with a price you like.

Kathy

bowens2

02-05-2009, 06:43 PM

Yeh. I am going to try.

eyelostit

02-07-2009, 01:46 PM

Any luck? :)

bowens2

06-25-2009, 03:09 PM

Monk's latest curve

6/25/09

8:19am 132
10:17am 161
12:14pm 190
2:22pm 234
4:15 217

He ate 2/3 cup dry RD and 1/2 can RD with a little chicken broth on it at 7:45this morning and had his insulin - 14.5 units of Lantus
Plus a treat (Vitality chicken strip) right after his meal. He weighs about 26 lbs right now.

Dropped him off at the vet's at 8:10am. Thought he was going to have a heart attack he was so scared.

Dr. Merry thought I might want to up it to 15 units but I tried that before and Monk didn't seem to feel so well. But all in all I thought it was still pretty good.

Patty

06-25-2009, 03:18 PM

Betty,
I think that looks great! You know his fear may have had some effect too. ;)
Patty

bowens2

06-25-2009, 03:20 PM

Yeh thats what we discussed too. That's why I think I will stay at 14.5.

k9diabetes

06-25-2009, 09:53 PM

Nice Curve Mr. Monk!! :) He's our Lantus poster boy!

Natalie

bowens2

06-26-2009, 04:17 PM

Dr. Merry says all of his patients do well on it that really make the effort to control their pets diabetes. I know he had a schnauzer that the people put down but their problem was just giving him the shot. I tried to talk the people into letting me help and actually would have even taken the dog but they put him to sleep before I could make the offer to take him.

k9diabetes

06-26-2009, 09:39 PM

Grrrrr.... I hate that.

Patty

02-25-2010, 01:07 PM

Hi Betty!
How are thing with Monk?
Patty

Patty

03-31-2011, 07:16 PM

Hi Betty,
I hope you don't mind me pulling your thread up. I saw your name pop up tonight when I was online and wondered how you and Monk were getting along. I hope all is well.
Take care,
Patty

bowens2

11-22-2011, 03:45 PM

Wow I think its been a few years since I have posted. I have visited the forum a few times but did not post.

I am Monkey's Mama. Just a quick note, Monkey was doing fine up until today when we picked him up from the vets after we had been away for 10 days. Monk is panting and restless, drinking more water than normal, but eating. He seemed not to recognize us and seemed confused. I also think he is constipated which is very unusal for him. He has been home for a little over 6 hours. Now that doesn't sound bad but Monk usually goes about 6 times a day and within 15 minutes of eating and that's not happening. So I was looking for posts about constipation but did not find anything.

Thanks
Monk's Mom Betty

Monk's glucose level showed negative on a diastix. (Yeh I know after all these years you would think I would have mastered the blood and meter but he has done well and it has not been necessary.)

k9diabetes

11-22-2011, 04:34 PM

Goodness Betty.... did they say when this started with him?

He seemed not to recognize us and seemed confused.

This is especially frightening to me.

I haven't seen much problems with constipation among the dogs here but I'm really rather worried about your description of Monk. Are you going to take him back to the vet?

Natalie

Judi

11-22-2011, 04:54 PM

I hope his confusion is temporary. Have you boarded him before? My non diabetic dog really only likes to do his 2's in his own backyard. So he has been bound up after being at the kennel in the past.

I hope you can get Monk back to the vet. This certainly sounds worrisome. Judi

bowens2

11-22-2011, 06:02 PM

OK He finally went but he is panting and won't lay down. Just paces around the house. He ate his food but not his broccoli which he usually loves. I've tested his urine he is still negative. He has drank a lot and peed a lot. He might not be so confused now but he is certainly restless and panting which makes me think he has pain somewhere. We have palpitated (?spelling) all around his body but nothing seems to make him react as though it hurts. I even tried ear medicine because he gets so many ear infections. He absolutely can't lay down. I don't know what I am going to do with him during the night. I really don't want to subject him to more stress. They said he was fine the whole time we were gone but did act a little out of it this morning and apparently didn't eat right away but they did give him his shot. They gave him a bath too. I'm really upset. I will take him in the morning but I don't really want to. I was hoping it was just low glucose and he would come around but I don't think he is going to.
Thanks for your concern and if you have any advice I would welcome it. Hope everything is well on your end.

bowens2

11-22-2011, 06:07 PM

I've given him a little extra food so I expect him to have a higher than normal reading in the morning. I'm going to check him again in a few minutes. All he wants to do is follow my husband around panting and he normally does his own thing. I'm really upset at my vet. I have a feeling they did not monitor him very closely.

bowens2

11-22-2011, 06:10 PM

His tail is not tucked under his body which is what he usually does when he gets sick and he still wags it. He acts like he is still looking for food but won't eat brocolli but will eat kibble if I give it to him.

Patty

11-22-2011, 06:13 PM

Gosh Betty, I'm worried too. I'm surprised he was negative on the diastix with the drinking and urinating.

I'm glad his constipation seems to have resolved. Sometimes a little canned pumpkin puree can help for future reference.

I wonder too if he didn't eat right away, yet they gave his shot and later gave a bath if he was running low. I know he usually has a pretty flat curve on Lantus, but just a thought.

Keep us posted on how he's doing.
Patty

bowens2

11-22-2011, 06:46 PM

Ok I think it was his ears. I put a little more ear medicine in because the bottle was almost empty, I thought maybe I didn't get enough deep down in. I held the bottle upside down for a few minutes and put more in and made sure it was down in the ear. The thing was his ears weren't really red like they usually are and he usually uses his back leg to scratch when he has an ear infection but he has neuropathy (?spelling) in his back legs and they really look weak so maybe he was just to weak to reach his ears.

I'm still really upset with the vet though. If it was that severe it didn't just start this morning.

So the good thing is he is now resting and breathing normally.

bowens2

11-22-2011, 06:48 PM

Thanks for the support and I will let you know how it goes thru the night and when I talk to the vet in the morning. Its just that he must have been in severe pain to act so out of it plus I think his ears must have been throbbing and possibly could not hear because of it.

bowens2

11-22-2011, 07:12 PM

Ok now he is back up and panting again. I don't know what it is. That didn't last very long. Hopefully he can get some rest some how. I'll let you all know in the morning. If he wasn't eating and wagging his tail, I would take him to the emergency vet but since that seems ok I'm going to wait and see how he is in the morning instead of adding to his stress.

CarolW

11-22-2011, 07:33 PM

Gosh, Betty; I'm SO sorry Monk is having these difficulties. I don't know about giving him that shot when he hadn't eaten. And then a bath on top of that - and if his ears are hurting; GOSH; they should have checked his ears!

I think it's not all that unusual for a dog who has been boarded for a week or more to act confused for a bit after coming home, but I don't think it should last hours, either.

I'll be here watching for a short time; perhaps in the wee hours, too. Hope to heck Monk feels better very soon. If not, of course, it's vet-time.

Love and hugs, licks and wags,
Tue, 22 Nov 2011 19:33:06 (PST)

k9diabetes

11-22-2011, 10:03 PM

Betty and I spent most of an evening posting back and forth the day he was first put on Lantus. So Monk and Betty have long had a special place in my heart. Will be anxiously checking for news about Monk tomorrow. Wishing you a peaceful night.

Natalie

bowens2

11-23-2011, 07:26 AM

I think Monk does have a severe ear infection. I am taking him back in today even though I think he is slowing getting better. I hate to submit him to more stress but he is still restless and could not walk this morning but I think that is due to the fact his natural reaction is to scratch his ears and he doesn't seem to be able to but his legs want to. He is no longer panting but he is still very restless. He is acting more like himself now and ate well but still drinking water even though his glucose was not high this morning.

He finally settled down for good around 3:30am this morning when I put a second dose of ear medication in his ears. So I think with a few more applications of ear medication he may be fine.

I'll update after he sees the vet.

CarolW

11-23-2011, 07:44 AM

Thanks for this update, Betty. Hope it IS the ears, and that treating them will get Monk more comfortable again. I'll be watching.
Wed, 23 Nov 2011 07:44:00 (PST)

MaryLea

11-23-2011, 09:54 AM

Hope things settle down more quickly, Betty. Thanks for the update.

Mary ;)

bowens2

11-23-2011, 01:51 PM

Ok Good thing I took Monk to the vet. He did have an ear infection but his real problem was low blood sugar. It was 33. So I don't know if they didn't make sure that he ate which is probably what happened. He got his shot at 8:30 and they said he wouldn't eat at that time but I was assuming that they made sure he ate later. Then turned around and gave him a bath. But I am wondering why he didn't eat because he ate the whole time he was there. I think his sugar was so low that he possibly could have had a seizure because when we picked him up he was wet all around his face and they said he was lying in his food but his food is dry and that is not like him to just lie in his food. So that leaves me wondering if they didn't make sure he ate the night before or gave him double insulin shots. I actually started feeding him kibble and chicken treats as soon as he got home and fed him his regular food early but I did give him his shot at that time too.

So they gave him glucose intraveniously. Told me to hold his insulin tonight and only give him half the dose tomorrow and take him back in on Friday morning at 9am without giving him insulin until they checked him out. I also have ear medication. I also had them do his blood workup now which was due next month.

OH how I would just love to give him a big bowl of food and let him eat to his hearts content. He is still looking for food right now. He isn't panting but he is still somewhat restless and drinking a lot of water. He does seem stronger and more alert.

So let me know what you guys think about his insulin intake. If you think that is a wise move or not. I know in the end I have to go with my gut because I am here with him and know his behavior more than the vet.

Thanks - advice is appreciated!

bowens2

11-23-2011, 01:59 PM

Its like he is a different dog. He would never have anything to do with my new dog for the last year. He was always afraid of her because she is rambunctious and he just tried to crawl into bed with her in a tiny bed under my desk. So funny. He didn't have any room so he got back up. Just weird!

heinzle

11-23-2011, 02:15 PM

Patty

11-23-2011, 02:58 PM

I agree. I'm not happy about his diabetic care either based on your post.

Sounds like they are playing it safe with the insulin advice. Since the urine sticks can't tell you how low he's going and the office is closed Thursday, might be wise to follow their plan. I'd still test with the diastix and see how's he's doing with this.

bowens2

11-23-2011, 03:06 PM

Monk just had three seizures in a row. I put syrup in his mouth between seizures. When he was at least a little stable I gave him double amount of kibble with fluids. ADVICE NEEDED!

jesse girl

11-23-2011, 03:18 PM

jesse is epileptic we cant tell if its low blood sugar so i must treat it as low blood sugar

the only thing i could do is rub sugar on the gums continuously until the seizure stops her mouth stays shut so i am very generous with rubbing on both sides of her gums

the thing is you dont know if it is low blood sugar or some thing else so treat it like low blood sugar and get to the vet asap multiple seizures is serious

CarolW

11-23-2011, 03:31 PM

I too am unhappy with how your vet handled the food and insulin before you brought Monk home, and now, don't know what to say, but agree that since you don't test BG levels, best be conservative with the insulin.

And I totally agree with Jesse girl - OFF TO THE VET - NOW! Seizures are very serious.
Wed, 23 Nov 2011 15:30:48 (PST)

Judi

11-23-2011, 03:40 PM

I'm sure thinking positive thoughts for Monk. Jenny went scary low a couple of weeks ago and she had no insulin for 36 hours. she did get back up in the 400's again but her vet said no insulin at all until we were certain she was no longer low.

(I also let her eat and have treats that day). I hope Monk feels better enough to do that.

hugs, Judi

k9diabetes

11-23-2011, 03:53 PM

Hi Betty,

I think you should take him to the emergency vet and find out for sure what's happening with his blood sugar.

The drinking and urinating don't match low blood sugar... could be the seizures are unrelated.

It's serious enough that if he was my dog, I'd take him to the ER.

Natalie

k9diabetes

11-23-2011, 04:00 PM

I sent you a PM too. One possibility is that he's developed Addison's disease, which is a lack of cortisol. It will cause very low blood sugar and electrolytes off and can make them extremely ill and weak. It's a very serious illness that needs immediate treatment by replacing the missing cortisol - usally with prednisone at first.

I agree with not giving him insulin until this can be checked out. It would help narrow down what might be going on with him. If Addison's, he might still have normal or lower than expected blood sugar without any insulin injected.

I'm really worried about him Betty. I hope you have a good ER vet where you are.

Natalie

bowens2

11-23-2011, 04:08 PM

Ok that's what I wanted to know. He does seem back to being fine. I shouldn't say fine. He is moving around at a pretty quick pace like he is looking for something. Just read all of the posts on lows and that is exactly how he acts. My mother-in-law said my father-in-law would act like him also when he would have lows. He's just had so much stress lately I hate doing it to him again. I wish I wouldn't have panicked and paid attention to how much of everything I was giving him.

He was so super stressed when we took him back today. I just had to give him a bath to get the pee off of him.

What can they do for him? We did a full blood work-up today. He is drinking and eating so I would think fluids wouldn't be needed.

bowens2

11-23-2011, 04:09 PM

He did have two seizures not three when I thought about it. He was sleeping and had a seizure and then got up and walked around and about 5 or 10 minutes later had another.

k9diabetes

11-23-2011, 04:14 PM

I'd like to see them not only check his blood sugar now but also put him through some good neurological assessments and check his cortisol level and electrolytes, all of which they should be able to do in-house and get results right away rather than waiting for them to come back from the lab.

The neurological assessments are noninvasive and can tell them a lot about whether there is some neurologic impairment.

The thirst just doesn't match low blood sugar.... maybe he does it backwards but the fact that he's so thirsty concerns me that something else is going on with him unrelated to his diabetes altogether.

He could be very dizzy from the ear infection but seizures wouldn't go with that. And usually an infection will raise the blood sugar.

It's such a mixed bag of signals. I would want to KNOW more about what's going on with him.

Natalie

CarolW

11-23-2011, 04:25 PM

I hadn't thought of the possibility of low cortisol. Betty - if Monk were my dog, he's be on the way to the ER now. To me, it's a matter of safety. Seizures should not be occurring at all; best get to the bottom of things.

Sending you and Monk all the very best,
Wed, 23 Nov 2011 16:25:42 (PST)

bowens2

11-23-2011, 06:13 PM

I'm taking him. But would some level of his in the past (what ever it is that they test for cushings) showed him borderline cushings if he had Addisons? The value for cushings was 22 or higher and his was 21.22 what ever the test was? This vet keeps pushing about the cushings and having him tested again. She did again today.

CarolW

11-23-2011, 06:22 PM

I can't answer your questions, Betty, though I got the impression Natalie might have been thinking of temporary lowering of cortisol levels, which would mimic Addisons. SO glad you're getting Monk to the vet. I really think that's crucial. I'll be here watching as often as I can; praying for you and Monk - and awaiting your reports!
Wed, 23 Nov 2011 18:21:45 (PST)

Patty

11-23-2011, 06:41 PM

I'm just now reading Betty and would take Natalie's 'checklist' of things to have the ER check for with to be sure they do a full assessment.

Not sure how long ago the Cushings test was you were talking about but I'd have them test his cortisol level while there to see if it's low.

k9diabetes

11-23-2011, 09:44 PM

Hi Betty,

I'm glad he will be seen tonight.

A dog with low blood sugar is UNLIKELY to have Cushing's disease.

So good that they did the cortisol testing at the vet today - just not for the right reason.

Cushing's testing in a diabetic dog is notoriously unreliable because the diabetes not only mimics many Cushing's symptoms but also tends to throw off the results of the testing. I wouldn't accept a Cushing's diagnosis in a diabetic dog unless it was (1) confirmed through more than one kind of test (and it has to be the right tests); (2) the blood sugar refuses to regulate; AND (3) the dog has more than one obvious visible symptom of Cushing's disease.

There is a direct connection between cortisol levels and blood sugar.

Cushing's = high levels of cortisol = high blood sugar and large doses of insulin needed.

Addison's = low levels of cortisol = low blood sugar, often quite severely low, along with weakness and lethargy.

Blood sugar remaining low - perhaps low enough to cause seizures - is not a Cush dog. But it could very well be an Addison's dog.

It's not unusual for a diabetic dog to show a high level of cortisol on the Cushing's test even if he doesn't have Cushing's. And the more stressed a dog is, the higher the cortisol results are likely to be. That's why concurrent illnesses like diabetes throw off the tests.

So the results of the Cushing's test they did today will be important in figuring out what is going on with him but he is not likely to have Cushing's based on what I've heard.

If he truly had Addison's disease (low cortisol), even stressed he won't be able to produce a large amount of cortisol on the test.

Finding out whether his blood sugar is still low will be a big indicator of what might be happening with him also so it really needs to be tested tonight after he's had all that food and syrup.

I think the neurologic exam is also very important because it's possible that something else entirely is going on with him.

I hope that a set of fresh eyes will be able to take a comprehensive objective look at Monk and sort out what's going on.

Natalie

Patty

11-23-2011, 10:30 PM

If he truly had Addison's disease (low cortisol), even stressed he won't be able to produce a large amount of cortisol on the test.

Finding out whether his blood sugar is still low will be a big indicator of what might be happening with him also so it really needs to be tested tonight after he's had all that food and syrup.

I think the neurologic exam is also very important because it's possible that something else entirely is going on with him.

I hope that a set of fresh eyes will be able to take a comprehensive objective look at Monk and sort out what's going on.

Natalie

I totally agree with Natalie and am hoping the same thing with a new team to sort things out.

The thought also occurred to me that it's possible Monk uses overlap of his Lantus duration (if it's lasting longer than 12 hours for him) to keep his flat profile and if he starts running significantly lower, it may take some time to rid the body of the excess insulin.

But a neuro eval, coritsol levels, etc could help determine if something else entirely is going on.

Will be waiting to hear, Betty.

heinzle

11-23-2011, 10:39 PM

Addison's also occurred to me but I felt I was too close because Sammie also has Addison's. Please know that if he does have Addison's it is very treatable. I actually believe that it is easier to treat than Cushings because the adrenal glands have just stopped working - easier to treat when that variable has been taken away.

*If* he has Addison's I would absolutely want the 28 day Percoten shot with daily prednisone versus the daily Florinef pill. Percoten is much easier to give/monitor/stabilize and, overall, will be much cheaper.

There is a fantastic Addison's dog site at http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AddisonDogs_/ that will help you through all this *if* he has Addison's. Trust me when I say the Addison's is easy to treat but it's hard to detect. Once detected it is downhill but kind of a balance when it comes to diabetes management.

I'm watching and waiting for your next post.

k9diabetes

11-24-2011, 12:07 AM

Another thing that occurred to me is that maybe he was running low blood sugar throughout the time he was at the vet and exhausted his glucose reserves so is unable to maintain basal blood sugar.

Natalie

Soaphie & Sydney's Mom

11-24-2011, 10:15 AM

Any update on Monk?

CarolW

11-24-2011, 10:22 AM

Tami - probably half the forum is here watching, all holding our breaths. I have to go on my weekly Hunt Day, so will come look after I get back. Prayers flowing and flowing for Monk and Betty. I surely hope the vet is finding out (or found out) what problems Monk has.
Thu, 24 Nov 2011 10:22:30 (PST)

MaryLea

11-24-2011, 06:05 PM

Watching from Texas for your report, too.

Mary ;)

k9diabetes

11-24-2011, 09:22 PM

I've worried all day about you and Monk...

Natalie

bowens2

11-25-2011, 01:58 PM

Monk's sugar came back up really high so I did not take him to the ER. But here is what has happened since then. Thursday I gave him 8 units of Lantus and fed him. I had given him probably too much sugar during the previous evening after his seizures. He had no insulin that night. I gave him 8 units the next more with his regular food. He stayed high but we took him to Columbus (my son's house about an hour and half away)with us. He was high when we got to Columbus. I fed him about 5pm and gave him 10 units of Lantus. He paced and panted for awhile. He was nervous and shaking but I think he thought he was going to the vets. Took him a couple of hours to really settle down but it is no different than what he has been doing at home. He finally zonked out for awhile. I got him home about 11:30 and he was negative. Now when everything is normal he pretty much stays at negative and that has never been a problem until now. I guess I panicked and may have read into his behavior differently because of all that is going on. He doesn't like to be picked up at all but I wanted him to go to bed and he would not get off the sofa so I started to pick him up and he acted terrified, whined, and even growled a little. So once again I started giving him treats and syrup. He was pretty much fine during the night. I fed him at 7am because he was negative still and didn't want to wait until 9:15 when we saw the vet but he did not get insulin.

I discussed all that was going on with my regular vet. He had the test results back while he says he can't rule out cushings he definitely does not think he has Addison's Disease. His liver phosphates are very high but they have always been somewhat high. He was going to look and tell me if they were higher than last time but I guess we both got side tracked.

He really wanted to keep him but I said no because they leave at 5pm and are not back in the office until 8am. If he did have a seizure or his blood dropped there would be no one there. He said I could take him to the emergency vets because they were there 24/7. But for me that's not an option. One because you don't know which vet you will get. Two I could not afford to leave him there all weekend regretfully and can monitor him better myself and if he has a problem again if nothing else but for a second opinion.

While he was there they did a blood glucose test and he was at 400. The vet assured me he would not drop dangerously low in one day. He wanted me to be consistent the next three days and give him 10 units but after having 8 and then 10 units and dropping low. I told him I would comprise and start with 9 units. He is going back into have another bg test at 9am in the morning. What I didn't know is since he ate at 7am but took his shot at 10am should I give him his insulin when I fed him which I did at 4:15pm because he was whining and pacing. I think while he was boarding they were feeding him and giving him his shot at 8am and 4 or 5pm. His normal is like 8am and 6pm or 7pm. He is definitely a creature of habit so I think everything has been thrown off.

So should I give him his insulin now? or wait an hour and give it with his broccoli around 6pm?

I was going to attach test results but I haven't figured out how to insert or attach them.

bowens2

11-25-2011, 02:06 PM

The vet thinks its all of the ups and downs that are really causing the problem. I did make him show me how to take blood from ear. My first attempt was a failure so I tried it on myself so I think I may be able to do it and I am going to try again in a little while. I know I could do it if I had someone here but my husband is out of town. I think it didn't work because of the time lapse of putting the test strip in and actually getting his ear pricked. He did squeal and hid from me as soon as I let him go.

I tried to have the vet give me his number if something did happen but he wouldn't so after this is resolved I am going to find a vet I can contact in situations like this.

bowens2

11-25-2011, 02:08 PM

I thought they were doing a cushings test but they did not. He has told me that a cushings test is not conclusive. Its the other vet that really thinks he might have cushings. If he can get him stable we are going to do a cushings next week since they didn't do one the other day.

Natalie I am going to email his test results.

bowens2

11-25-2011, 02:24 PM

I reread my post. He was not negative this morning at 7am. He was high. But I was afraid not to feed him.

bowens2

11-25-2011, 02:28 PM

I thought he would be even higher considering I gave him an extra cup of Chic's food which is Blue Wilderness Chicken around 2:30am. Twice I also gave him a chicken strip with syrup on it.

So even though I think they started this at the vets while he was boarding, I think I am not handling this very well. So I have started logging once again. His behavior and his food.

jesse girl

11-25-2011, 02:33 PM

i think home testing would be the best rout to take jesse uses the lip when i told my first vet this they seemed s bit confused we have been doing it for a year and a half with no problems and many others for a lot longer but where ever you are comfortable we started with the ear also and moved to the lip and jesse was fine with that

it really is the best way to keep them safe from going to low and as you know it is not a pleasant experience and life threatening

trying to adjust on physical signs and urine tests would be difficult and with what i know from testing at home we would never do it or based on one high reading jesse can run high at times out of the blue and it is temporary for the most part so raising the dose could be problematic without proper monitoring for her

the fact that monkey had such a hard time he may not be happy doing full curves at the vet and results could be skewed so we are glad you are exploring the possibilities of home testing

bowens2

11-25-2011, 02:47 PM

Besides the pacing, he is pretty much acting himself most of the time now. He is not lethargic (nor has he been in this whole process) and he is eating. He slept for 2 1/2 hours which is normal for him. I did just give him his broccoli with some canned chicken and shot of 9 units and he has gone to his bed. He has been more coherent. Tuesday and Wednesday part of the time even though he was alert he had like a wild kind a blank look. Now he looks like his regular self and was even pawing at my husband which is what he normally does. My husband was his safety zone in all of this and he left last night and it seemed as though Monk was searching for him.

He was negative on the diastic at 5:30pm. I am going to try and draw blood around 11pm hopefully I will get it right this time. I will feel so much better if I can monitor him. I guess sometimes you just need to be hard for their own good.

bowens2

11-25-2011, 02:59 PM

Jesse when Monk became a diabetic in Sept 2006 (I think) I tried monitoring his bg myself but Monk is a very timid dog and I could not even get him to bleed. I tried off and on for about a month maybe more at the base of the tail and the ear. He won't let me touch his lip and I have to secure him to do either of the others. He panics and fights like a lion when secured. He doesn't even like to be picked up. So the urine up until now has always worked but he also never had a hypo in all of those years. I if I had not left him at the vets for 10 days he probably would still be fine. Although the vet said the girl was wrong and he did eat and got 1/2 dose but something got him all screwed up. Maybe it was just his nerves and being away from home. I know one thing, I'll never leave him anywhere but home from now on. He is a creature of habit and it seems too much stimuli really reeks havoc on him. My husband used to try to bring him to our office and he freaks out at that. Just wants back in the car and back home in his garage to watch over the house. The garage is his choice not ours but we don't keep him out there for long. He sleeps in our bedroom or under our desk. Don't want you to think that he is one of those dogs that gets thrown out in a pen or fenced yard and only fed twice a day. He is very much part of the family.

k9diabetes

11-25-2011, 03:02 PM

Hi Betty,

Unfortunately, I have to run right now but wanted you to know that I read your posts and looked at his test results - liver values are off but not horrendously so. I can post them later today.

Overall, it seems like he is doing better - that is wonderful news. Especially that he seems to be getting back to normal in his behavior. That was especially worrisome to me.

Natalie

jesse girl

11-25-2011, 03:31 PM

well you and monkey have been doing this for a while with success but if you ever want to explore the possibilities of testing again you know the forum is always here

Judi

11-25-2011, 03:51 PM

I'm so glad he is acting more like himself. I drove the forum crazy trying to test Jenny's blood sugar. I can only get blood from her lip and it was a struggle.

Some of the things I've learned.

1. Warm up the area. Warm up his ear. Either with a warm washcloth or with one of those beanbags you heat in the microwave.

2. for the ear put a teeny tiny bit of vasoline where you are poking him so it will bead.

3. Be fast. This is where the lancing device is my savior. I keep hesitating cause I don't want to hurt her. If no blood soon, poke again. Upset dogs get more upset when we are sitting there praying more blood will show up.

4. Bribe bribe bribe. Jenny gets 2 treats during and cheese after. I rub her chin, hug her, and tell her how much I love her when she is getting upset. When I tried the stern approach she just fought harder and we had some ugly battles.

I completely understand where you are coming from. Jenny's BG had always been so high, I'd tried and failed a few times but didn't really have to worry until the morning she hit 66, then 44. The folks here have been so patient and helpful.

I'm just glad your Monkey is getting back to himself and hope he and you can calm down and get back into your routine now.

hugs, Judi and a very sympathetic Jenny who had to be poked 3 times tonight.

bowens2

11-25-2011, 03:56 PM

I tried early today but failed on Monkey so I tried it on myself. So I know what I did wrong. I put the test strip in and failed to apply the blood in a timely manner so I am going to try again. I just wish I had someone to hold him.

I hope we start getting things back in order. Its still kind of early to say we are out of the woods. I don't want to jinx him. So we will see. 9am at the vets.

bowens2

11-25-2011, 04:12 PM

Thanks Judi. I need a refresher course. Monk has always done so well that I forgot a lot of that stuff. I keep waiting for something that you can poke and test all in one. It would be so much easier.

We have had a few ups and downs since 2006. The very first day Monk was home after being diagnosed he threw up and I was frantic but Natalie helped me thru that and besides a bad case of pancreatitis once and a slight case a second time his other problems have been non-diabetic. The first case of pancreatitis he became infected from the fluids and then about 6 months ago he thru up while being trached during a teeth cleaning and having a small growth taken off his eye which had started causing him some irritation. He got bile in his lungs other than that he has had smooth sailing. His curves are always pretty good up to this point and up until now he never had a hypo. That's why everytime they mention Cushings I back them off because I've read that cushing dogs were hard to regulate and Monk wasn't. But we are going to do another test next week. He hasn't had one since 2006

bowens2

11-25-2011, 04:27 PM

He has lost weight since he was diagnosed. He was never fat and now he is down right skinny. It seems like everytime I board him he loses more weight and doesn't put it back on. I left him at a different animal hospital one year and he lost 2 lbs. This time he only lost a few ounces but even that is becoming critical for him. He is so boney. You don't really see it but I feel it.
He weighed almost 28 lbs when he was diagnosed and now weighs 24.1 lbs. He has no muscle mass in his back legs.

I switched him from 2/3 cup dry food and 1/2 can of canned food back in July to almost 1 cup of RD dry food because he eats so much better. He loves dry food and but will turn his back on canned food. Didn't make sense to me but I had to up his insulin a little for that. Took me a few days to figure out the amount of food and dosage of insulin but he did get regulated even switching him over until I boarded him this time.

So lesson learned no boarding for the MonkerMan.

bowens2

11-25-2011, 04:32 PM

I'll let you know how things go. I used to be on this board daily but I have had to work more in the past years due to the economy and I volunteer at a dog shelter so time is scarce (that's why I now have two dogs again). I love this board it is so helpful especially when you first start out and when you have problems like this and can't reach your vet.

Thanks for the help especially Natalie once again!

MaryLea

11-25-2011, 05:31 PM

I'll look for my (much) earlier post where I describe the procedure which finally worked with Ruffles, but I totally agree with the "bribe, bribe, bribe" comment. I got everything ready, including several slivers of chicken (which was her fav). Put everything on the end table beside the couch. Picked her up and put her beside me on the couch. Made her sit, then lie down. Gave 1st sliver of chicken. Put the arm nearest her over her back, just a light touch but enough to let her know I was there. The vet told me to always approach her mouth from her body (behind her ears) so she didn't react. I could work with her mouth as long as I did that. If I came from the front or side of her mouth, she evidently thought it was an "attack." Always gave a treat after a successful test; she knew hen the meter beeped, the next bite was soon to come! :D

Keep working with Monk until you find the right combination and place (on his body) to do the test. If I can learn to do this (and I did) you can too!

Watching with interest and cheering you on,

Mary ;)

k9diabetes

11-25-2011, 08:42 PM

Monk's test results - decided it was easier just to enter them as the scan is a pretty large file.

Testing done 11.23.11

Total Protein - 6.0 -- RR: 5.0-7.4
Albumin - 3.8 -- RR: 2.7-4.4
Globulin - 2.2 -- RR: 1.6-3.6
A/G Ratio - 1.7 -- RR: 0.8-2.0
AST - 84 (HIGH) -- RR: 16-68 or 66, hard to read
ALT - 293 (HIGH) -- RR: 12-118
AlkP - 1,489 (HIGH) -- RR: 5-131
Total Bilirubin - 1.0 (HIGH) -- RR: 0.1-0.3
BUN - 29 -- RR: 6-31
Creatinine - 1.5 -- RR: 0.5-1.6
BUN/Creatinine Ratio - 19 -- RR: 4-27
Phosphorus - 4.9 -- RR: 2.5-6.0
Glucose - 141 -- RR: 70-138
Calcium - 9.7 -- RR: 8.9-11.4
Sodium - 145 -- RR: 139-154
Potassium - 4.6 -- RR: 3.6-5.5
Sodium/Potassium Ratio - 32 -- RR: 27-38
Chloride - 113 -- RR: 102-120
Cholesterol - 202 -- RR: 92-324
CPK - 388 -- RR: 59-895

Note: AST may be lower than reported due to a Hemolysis 2+ and Lipemia 2+ but is still abnormal.

CBC normal except:
Platelet Count - 446 (HGH) -- RR: 170-400

T4 - less than 0.5 (LOW) -- RR: 0.6/0.8-2.? (can't read it well)

Fructosamine (Antech) - 292 -- RR: 142-460
Less than 500 = Good regulation
500-614 = Fair regulation
Greater than 614 = Poor regulation
Covers the preceding two weeks so mostly covers his time while boarded.

k9diabetes

11-25-2011, 08:50 PM

The low thyroid level may or may not be real - Chris used to test borderline low on the standard T4 in the blood panel but tested in the middle of the normal range with the more sensitive Free T4 with Equilibrium Dialysis. Any concurrent illness can throw off the thyroid level on the basic blood panel.

I've seen worse liver values but all of them are elevated quite a bit, enough that I don't think I could write them off to "just" his diabetes, especially given how well controlled his blood sugar is.

The liver is the organ that manages the release of stored sugar to maintain the basal blood sugar levels. I wonder if he's having trouble doing that because of liver problems.

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/lab.aspx

Bilirubin is produced by the liver from old red blood cells. Bilirubin is further broken down and eliminated in both the urine and stool. Bilirubin is increased in the blood in patients with some types of liver disease, gallbladder disease or in patients who are destroying the red blood cells at a faster than normal rate (hemolysis). Large amounts of bilirubin in the bloodstream will give a yellow color to non-furred parts of the body, which is called icterus or jaundice. Icterus is most easily recognized in the tissues around the eye, inside the ears and on the gums.

Alkaline phosphatase originates from many tissues in the body. When alkaline phosphatase is increased in the bloodstream of a dog the most common causes are liver disease, bone disease or increased blood cortisol either because prednisone or similar drug is being given to the pet or because the animal has Cushing's disease (hyperadrenocorticism). In cats, the most common causes of increased alkaline phosphatase are liver and bone disease.

ALT is an enzyme produced by liver cells. Liver damage causes ALT to increase in the bloodstream. ALT elevation does not provide information as to whether the liver disease is reversible or not.

http://www.nwlabs.co.uk/testinterp2.htm#CK%20(Creatine

AST (Aspartate aminotransferase)

AST occurs in the liver, erythrocytes and all types of muscle. It is found in the both the cytoplasm and mitochondria of cells hepatocytes and is released into the blood due to hepatucellular damage and during changes in cell membrane permeability or necrosis. Half life is about 12 hours in the dog, less in cats and 7 to 8 days in horses
Small Animals
Reference RangesCanine0-< 30 IU/LFeline10 - 30 IU/L/l

ELEVATED LEVELS Hepatopathies (see ALT)Hepatic disease
Muscular diseases and myopathies
Haemolysis
Recent intra-muscular injection
Myocardial infarction or ischaemia
Congestive heart failure

Patty

11-25-2011, 10:36 PM

Betty,
So he's on 9u now twice a day. Remind me what his dose was prior to boarding. Was it 8u? Just curious since he's showing negative now on the strips.
Patty

bowens2

11-26-2011, 08:44 AM

OK I didn't feed Monk this morning or give him his shot. He was showing negative but not acting out of the norm or panting. I took him in and Dr. Merry was really surprised at how low he was. He was 84 but Dr. Merry expected him to be at 300 or more. That was on 9 units of Lantus and probably a bit more treats than usual. When I say treats its Vitality Chicken strips. They are about 4 inches long and thin. They worry me because they are made in China but they work for Monk. He used to only get about 3 a day. 1 1/2 in the morning stuffed in a kong and another one when one of us leaves the house.

So Dr. Merry said there is one of two things going on.
1. His pancreas has started pumping insulin (kind of like a cat will do)
2. Cushings

If its 1 then like a cat it will probably eventually stop or slow down again.

Most likely its 2 but Natalie said its usually high blood sugar not low with a Cushings dog.

He will be tested for Cushings next week. He is now cut back to 6 units of Lantus and we will slowly increase him as needed.

I tried this morning again to test him. I finally took him into our small 1/2 bath with canned chicken. I tried 3 times and could not get enough blood. I am going to try again this evening. He is tolerating it a little better. The sound used to freak him out but I don't think he hears so well any more so that isn't a problem.

Patty, Monks normal dose was up to 15.75 units in the morning and 15.25 in the evening. He used to get 14.75 and 14.25 but when I switched to dry food it took more to get him regulated.

He now weighs only 22.1 lbs. I thought he weighed 24.1. I don't like that at all. He is skin and bones. He looks best at 26 lbs. I am going to discuss this with Dr. Merry on Monday.

So I fed him and gave him his food and 6 units at 9:15 and he is acting normal. I was worried about him dropping more until his food kicked in but he seems ok. He is sleeping and that is normal for him. The other times when he was low he would pace and pant.

He goes back Monday morning but hopefully I can monitor him at least a little. Right now I'll only try when I think he is low because at this time that's my biggest concern. Once again Dr. Merry was concerned that I would change his dosage in big increments and I told him I would not increase or decrease but a half unit to a unit at a time at the most.

MaryLea

11-26-2011, 09:02 AM

Glad you reduced the dose, and that you are going to follow up next week. The results of his blood panel indicate something else is going on. I'm not experienced enough to know what that is, but when I looked up the high readings, every comment mentioned liver in one way or another. So I'm concerned for him (and you :)).

Monk is one lucky pup to have you as his HumanMum!

Mary ;)

bowens2

11-26-2011, 09:07 AM

Thanks Natalie. Those posts were helpful. I read something about intra-muscular injection. Monk did just get his yearly vacines while there also. I really didn't want him to get them anymore but he had to have them to board.

But I won't have to worry about that again.

bowens2

11-26-2011, 09:14 AM

bowens2

11-26-2011, 09:18 AM

I always thought he took an unually high dose for his size but that's what it took to regulate him.

jesse girl

11-26-2011, 09:22 AM

its just very strange this all happened after being boarded

i see monkey had pancreatits before and with my jesse she had a severe case and almost did not make it but her values on just about everything was out of whack including her liver

maybe there is a flare up going on they say that can shock the system into production of insulin again on rare occasions

with testing you can do practice testing also just go through the motions and let monkey get accustom to the routine and with dogs its all about structure and routine . thats great he is being more tolerable of testing but go slow make it as pleasant as you can stay calm if you dont get a drop come back and do it again later or just do a dry run

it gives you both a chance to get comfortable

k9diabetes

11-26-2011, 09:58 AM

Betty... I wouldn't let Dr. Merry or anyone else in that clinic treat Monk for Cushing's disease. Please do NOT let them put him on Cushing's medication no matter what the ACTH test results are.

The chances of Monk producing insulin again after all this time are extremely small. And there are other ways for the body to need less insulin.

Right now, he's the complete opposite of a typical Cushing's dog and I think it would be extremely irresponsible to treat this as Cushing's without some expert advice.

What I do think is possible is that there is some type of liver problem - I just don't think it's Cushing's.

He could also be failing to digest his food well and that's why he needs less insulin. Our cat developed IBD. After a few months of just seeming a bit blah, she started losing weight rapidly even though she was on more food than she had been maintaining her weight a few months earlier. In three weeks, she lots 3/4 of a pound and weighed only 10 pounds when she started losing. As soon as we put her on Flagyl, her weight came back up just as quickly.

Have they talked about putting him on supplements good for the liver, like SamE?

This just screams for a really good internal medicine specialist...

Natalie

bowens2

11-26-2011, 10:40 AM

I've never tried SamE but I do have him on milk thistle. Dr. Merry doesn't act like he wants to put him on Cushings medicine, although there is a new one out that isn't as hard on the system. They have been using it in Europe and it was just approved over here but Dr. Merry has not used it yet. Dr. Whitaker wants to keep exploring the Cushings end of it. Dr. Merry never pushed the Cushings medicine on Monk or Pepper who's values showed she probably did have cushings. He said the medicine was worse than the disease.

At 1:30pm Monk showed a 1 on the diastix which is very high. He ate at 9:15am and received 6 units of insulin. So I may up him to 7 at dinner.

bowens2

11-26-2011, 10:43 AM

bowens2

11-26-2011, 10:49 AM

Betty,
So he's on 9u now twice a day. Remind me what his dose was prior to boarding. Was it 8u? Just curious since he's showing negative now on the strips.
Patty

Patty
He pretty much showed negative all the time before this started happening. He stays pretty even. That's why he has always done so well.

I think you can tell from his test results he normally stays pretty regulated.
Fructosamine 292

k9diabetes

11-26-2011, 10:50 AM

The newer drug is Trilostane, the older one Lysodren. Trilostane has been used for a while in the U.S. by being ordered but was approved in the U.S. a couple of years ago.

I would disagree that Trilostane is "safer" - it has just as many potential side effects as Lysodren, they are just somewhat different. It is perhaps less expensive to monitor than Lysodren but both are extremely powerful drugs.

There's an ongoing myth out there about Cushing's treatment being worse than the disease and that tells me that the vet doesn't know enough about it. The treatment has to be managed carefully by someone skilled - the lack of that is almost always the source of problems. There are well established protocols for these treatments.

If I had a Cushing's dog, I would treat when symptoms appear and after a very thorough diagnostic workup. My friends at the Cushing's forum (www.k9cushings.com/forum (http://www.k9cushings.com/forum)) prefer that Cushing's be confirmed with more than one kind of test and also for there to be visual symptoms of Cushing's disease. They absolutely do not support a diagnosis on a single test.

And I would find the best IMS in the area, plus read up even more at the Cushing's forum than I already have.

Probably the bigger impediment to Cushing's treatment is the expense. The tests are expensive, the meds are expensive, and the amount of monitoring required can be expensive.

But the treatment in a dog who clearly has Cushing's disease and who responds well to the treatment medication can go on to live a very healthy life and normal lifespan.

Natalie

k9diabetes

11-26-2011, 10:57 AM

Our cat didn't have any diarrhea or other poop problems either. The only Gi sign was that she was having a lot of hairball problems - she has long fur. And in her case, her blood panel was great. But she didn't look good or act normal - she just seemed "off" - so when she suddenly lost weight we had x-rays and an abdominal ultrasound done. The x-rays picked up signs of possible inflammation of the bowel that were confirmed and located precisely with the ultrasound.

Within days of starting Flagyl, she started gaining weight back.

Her brother Gus had severe IBD that shaded into lymphoma. And he eventually died after a large tumor developed at the end of the colon. Katie's inflammation is in the same area of the colon but caught much earlier. And she takes her pills cheerfully. Gus was always almost impossible to medicate.

Both Gus and Katie were very sensitive to food changes all their lives and Gus as a youngster had a very bad bout of inflammation that resulted in cups and cups of clear white mucus. Gus was on prednisone and a mild chemotherapy agent and the tumor that developed was a different type of cancer from lymphoma but I wonder if all that inflammation isn't how it got started.

Natalie

Soaphie & Sydney's Mom

11-26-2011, 11:32 AM

He bowel movements are very healthy and very frequent. He used to go about 6 times a day now I think its about 8 times a day. I don't count but it seems like it is about 8. But they are solid and not off colored or all that smelly.

Hi!

In my opinion, this is a lot of bowel movements....alot. I know every dog is different - but it seems to me that if your dog is having this many BM's each day, it may contribute to the weight loss - everything is just moving right through him.

Sydney typically goes once per day and Soaphie always 2....sometimes 3 times a day.

Any thoughts?

k9diabetes

11-26-2011, 11:48 AM

That was my thought as well. Jack takes exactly two a day, about 12 hours apart. Chris... on WD he might have gone four times with all the fiber in his diet. I think without all the fiber it was twice a day.

bowens2

11-26-2011, 01:01 PM

He has always gone alot since he was switched to RD when he became a diabetic. He has always gone at least 4 to 6 times a day and so did my other dog before she passed away of bladder cancer. She also ate RD. RD is high fiber also I believe. So I just thought it was the food.

I'll have to count tomorrow. I think today he has only gone 2 so far but he will go at least 2 more times minimum. But sometimes he will go in one place and then move completely across the yard and within about five minutes make another big pile so maybe I should count that as one. He poops big for a little dog.

I know my vet's office knows how much he goes because I discussed it with the girls but maybe I should mention it to Dr. Merry in case they haven't. I thought he went more in the last couple of days because of the extra food and syrup.

Chic (my other dog) who eats Blue Wilderness Chicken goes at least 3 times and every now and again 4 but occasionally she will go only twice. She is bigger and heavier than Monk She did eat Oerjen which gave her a lot of gas because of the amount of protein in it. But I mix RD in with her food too because her stool was always soft.

bowens2

11-26-2011, 01:06 PM

jesse girl

11-26-2011, 01:24 PM

You can stick a fork in Monk's. I know because if he can't get out he will poop in the den or behind a stool like a bad little boy but never in front of you. It never sticks to the carpet and is very solid and heavy. Where my other dogs is hard to pick up because its formed but very seldom is it solid like Monk's. Chic's stinks to high heavens and Monk's stinks but not real bad. Sometimes when he goes in the house you will see it before you smell it.

Ok enough about poop talk

oh i am the same way

i like the stick in fork technique to check consistency

it really does tell you quite a bit on how things are being digested and monkey seems to be doing fine in that department

things may settle down in a week or so and get back to normal for your little monkey we all have are ups and downs and most things seem to pass

you know your baby better than anybody so keep a watchful eye for any changes and what you want to see is improvement over the days to come

good vibrations for monkey and you

Soaphie & Sydney's Mom

11-26-2011, 01:25 PM

MaryLea

11-26-2011, 01:44 PM

You can stick a fork in Monk's....

Must admit I'd never tho't about trying that! Ha Ha. :D

Mary ;)

Shellie

11-26-2011, 06:28 PM

Thanks MaryLea. His liver enzymes have been elevated since he became a diabetic but they actually were lower last time (about 5 months ago) than they had been. I forgot to ask Dr. Merry how much they had risen.

Some of you said you give your dogs cheese as treats? Does this not have an affect on their BG? Because maybe I will try that.

I definitely want to see him gain some weight.

I give Hank cheese sticks mostly as an appetizer to his meals. He is a VERY picky eater but will eat cheese most of the time. I just add it in as calories. If I had a dog that actually ate the way they were supposed to (2 meals a day) then I would just reduce the food down by the 70 to 80 calories they get from cheese.

You can also just use very tiny pieces as rewards and you likely won't affect the bgs enough to make any difference. Remember..it isn't the size of the treat...it's what the treat is and when they get it. Dogs would rather have ten tiny pieces than one big one... :)

MaryLea

11-26-2011, 06:42 PM

Remember..it isn't the size of the treat...it's what the treat is and when they get it. Dogs would rather have ten tiny pieces than one big one... :)

So they can count, but have no reasoning power? :D

Mary

Shellie

11-26-2011, 09:10 PM

So they can count, but have no reasoning power? :D

Mary

You got it! LOL All Hank figures is that I'm STILL giving them to him rather than stopping at just one. More, Mommy, more! :)

CarolW

11-26-2011, 11:55 PM

I think it's partly the symbolic value of sharing - but also, the smell; as it's said dogs have better smell than taste. You're so right, Shellie, that dogs would much rather have ten tiny pieces than one big one.
Sat, 26 Nov 2011 23:55:07 (PST)

bowens2

11-27-2011, 05:06 AM

This morning Monkey is still high so he is at 7.5 units of insulin which is still less than half of his normal.

He is totally acting like his old self. He even went and laid down in the garage which is his favorite place in the whole world even when he is sick and it doesn't matter the temperature outside but he has not even attempted to go to the garage until now since we got home Tuesday. The garage is attached to the house and I have left the door open so he can come in if he wishes.

But today's problem is he threw up bile which I can't even remember the last time he did that, a year maybe two since he has done that. I know that has to do with his liver also. After that happens he will only eat if I give him some type of protein. Then its like his stomach settles and then he eats just fine and he won't do it again for a long time. My other dog used to do that too and they thought she had cushings but not bad enough to treat it. She actually would throw up bile a little more often especially if there were long spaces between eating.

I tried to test him again this morning and failed to get blood but he is getting more use to it. I've been trying to use the little lancet but I think I'll try to just use the lance itself next time because the first time that worked. I put it on 5 but it seems like it doesn't really pierce the ear very well. So I'll try again this evening.

bowens2

11-27-2011, 08:25 AM

Scenario: (is this feesible) Monk has only been on 15.75 and 15.25 units of insulin since September when I switched him to mostly dry food. Prior to that he was on 14.75 and 14.25 units. I switched him because he started to frequently turn his nose up at the dry mixed with wet but loves just dry.

He was fine when I took him in to board. Could he have been borderline low the whole time and having to sit in the run with no exercise have gone even farther down but still was eating so they continued to give him the same dosage (and I wonder if they are careful or if they just gave him 16 and 15.5) and it didn't catch up to him until the day before I picked him up. This is unusal but I don't think they tested him even once while he was there. I know when I left him in July they tested him several times.

We gave him more dry food when he was acting a little off when we got him home. But now I realize he had probably had a seizure. Not knowing this I gave him his regular meal and 15.25 units of insulin. To me he acted like he was high so I gave him his morning meal and insulin of 15.75 and then realized he was not right and took him to the vet and he was low like 58 and she gave him glucose. She did not tell me to take him home and feed him right away which is probably what I should have done. Instead I was waiting until 5:30 even though that was earlier than he should have eaten on a regular basis before I could feed him he had seizures.

My question is could this 10 days of staying low affect his liver counts (his numbers other than his enyzmes) even though his enzymes are always high? Could 10 days of that have increased his enzymes even more? I'll get a copy of his test from 5 mo ago on Monday to compare but I believe that was after he had boarded for 4 days and did not eat but they lowered his insulin.

He just came down stairs at 11:15 and peed on my chair and I tested his urine and it is negative. I gave him a kong with his chicken treats. I just tried sticking him again and could not get blood again. I am going to try again in a few minutes. He was still really high this morning so I upped his insulin from 7 to 7.5 at 7am and now he is negative at 11am. He acts fine right now but needless to say I am worried. I thought we would slowly creep upward until his dosage was back to normal. I didn't expect him to even have a low on 7.5 units.

bowens2

11-27-2011, 08:33 AM

He is not acting strange even went out to his bed in the garage again. I was going to run some errands but now I am afraid to. So I guess I'll go back down to 7 in the evening if he is acting normal.

I just watched the videos on testing again. I can't believe how calmly these dogs sit there. Monk fights you like a lion. He is calmer now with his ear but I can't get any blood. I tried using just the lancet not the device and I guess I really hurt him and still didn't get blood. The lancet device no longer scares him but it isn't poking him enough to draw blood even on the highest setting. I did not have vasoline so I used a little neosporine to see if that would help it bead up but I didn't get enough blood for that.

bowens2

11-27-2011, 08:51 AM

Ok I am a little bewildered. I tested the urine that was a huge puddle on the floor and it said negative but I thought ok maybe because it wasn't clean like in a cup and it was wrong and sure enough he is still high at 11:49.

Could a little bit of canned chicken (like three really small pieces) and a chicken treat have taken him back up in less than a 1/2 hour.

I expect the high so that is kind of a relief.

bowens2

11-27-2011, 08:58 AM

I am going to test him again in about 1 hour. If he is still high I am going to run some errands. I need to go get some more lancets (it only came with 10) and some food. I have no food in my house since I was gone. If he stays high I am assuming it would be safe to leave for about an 1 1/2 hour. Or not?

I have cameras in my basement set up to watch my dogs but I don't think they would really help in this instance

bowens2

11-27-2011, 08:59 AM

Which is better to use cheese or chicken while I am trying to test him?

I thought I had given him cheese one other time and it raised his bg.

jesse girl

11-27-2011, 09:01 AM

i struggled with the ear also

i am not sure if monkey will let you use the lip but it maybe worth a try

you can do some dry runs start by lifting the lip up run your finger on the sweet spot above the canine and release say good boy you may give a very small treat do that for a bit when you believe he is comfortable

next get the lance device no lance in it and not activated lift the lip up place the device on the sweet spot and remove say good boy and very small treat
do that until comfortable

next do the same thing with the lance device but this time activate it but with NO lance in it and apply to the sweat spot and activate it do that until comfortable

next install a lance into the device activate it apply to the sweat spot and engage hold for just a split second after it has been activated firm but do not over do it remove if you see a spec of blood you may have to milk it a bit to get a large enough drop you can attempt to test that sample or not till you feel more comfortable just getting the sample then trying to test it takes a little bit of coordination but repetitive motion helps allot

its a step by step process getting comfortable with each step both of you
for jesse she is an unstable diabetic I looked at testing as i dont have a choice she is just to unpredictable. monkey may be a bit unstable for whatever reason so you can look at it the same way you have no choice i must find a way to do this to keep him safe

CarolW

11-27-2011, 09:14 AM

Jesse girl's suggestions are excellent, Betty. Do dry-runs, in other words. If you have bits of boiled chicken, I'd use those for treats, but cheese will do also. It's usually a LOT easier to get blood samples from the "lip" (really, the inner lining of the mouth, not the lip itself) than it is from the ear.

If you want to persist with the ear, make sure to WARM it before pricking. Same goes for the lip, if you're having trouble. What is the gauge of the lancets you're using? Usually, the thicker the lancet-needle (the lower the numbers), the easier it is to get a blood sample.

I used a fairly hot wet paper towel to warm Kumbi's lip - I'd fold the lip up against his jaw, then fold it back down over the wet paper towel, and hold that for about 10 to 15 seconds; then blot it dry with another paper towel, and then prick by hand, sinking the lancet all the way. I think pricking by hand, you have less force than is exerted by a clicking-machine, and suspect the puncture is "lesser" than one caused by the clicker.

Can't remember who described putting the dog on the couch - maybe MaryLea - sitting beside the dog, and reaching over the dog's back, to get the lip - (was that the lip?) - the point there is, the dog can't track where your hand is, at the time you fold the lip up - isn't freaked by your hand coming up to fold the lip - I THINK that was the idea.

Linda and Ladybug devised a great way to test on the lip; I think her thread might be still visible on page 1 here. Linda wrapped two of her fingers in gauze, and used those to lift the lip and hold it against the upper jaw. Really brilliant!

Don't get discouraged - keep trying - but not too many tries all at once. You don't want to freak the dog out! About three tries is usually enough for one session - giving treats at every stage.

Sun, 27 Nov 2011 09:14:32 (PST)

Sadie's Mom

11-27-2011, 09:19 AM

I struggled finding the right spot too. Sadie is a really calm dog and usually lets me do anything. However, the only spot she is okay with me testing is the base of her tail. She doesn't really love it, but tolerates it. I did do some practice ones, which was recommended on this site. That really helped me. I don't test a lot, but was helpful this morning when she was on the low side. I was in a real panic when I was finding the right spot. I am sure that Sadie sensed that :) Now, I don't love poking her, but am much calmer which I am sure makes her calm too. She also gets a small piece of boiled chicken when she gets "stuck" with the lancet and when she is finished for being a "good girl". Of course there are times when she has to be "stuck" 3 or 4 times, so she gets a few extra treats for that! Good luck with finding a spot that works best for the two of you :)

Debbie

bowens2

11-27-2011, 09:49 AM

MaryLea

11-27-2011, 10:11 AM

Can't remember who described putting the dog on the couch - maybe MaryLea - sitting beside the dog, and reaching over the dog's back, to get the lip - (was that the lip?) - the point there is, the dog can't track where your hand is, at the time you fold the lip up - isn't freaked by your hand coming up to fold the lip - I THINK that was the idea.

Linda and Ladybug devised a great way to test on the lip; I think her thread might be still visible on page 1 here. Linda wrapped two of her fingers in gauze, and used those to lift the lip and hold it against the upper jaw. Really brilliant!Sun, 27 Nov 2011 09:14:32 (PST)

We learn from each other, and that is one of the strengths of this site. Carol, you have a good memory! We had two owners and Ruffles would tolerate almost anything for the other one, who perfected the routine and taught it to me. I was very hesitant to test BGs at first, and I'm sure Ruffles sensed my anxiety. We chose the couch because Ruffles liked to sleep there; she associated it with resting. I would put Ruffles on my right side on the couch when I tested on the left side of her upper lip and on my left when using the right side of her lip. I used (small) slivers of chicken; would suggest one bite before you place her on the couch, another before you test and at least one more after you test. If you have to poke her an extra time, give her an extra treat. Being calm, as you mentioned, really helps calm her, too. :) I used a slightly damp, warm paper towel to dry her lip before testing (to keep saliva from interfering with the test), holding the lip up after wiping it. Never tried the gauze idea, but it sounds great!

I got everything ready and on the end table before picking her up. She was beginning to have difficulty with her hips, and I didn't want her jumping onto the couch, although she could still make it. I didn't put the strip in the meter until right before the prick, so it would not time out (hopefully). The idea of coming towards her head from behind her ears was our vet's; as she became more ill, she would sometimes growl or even snap at me if I came from the side or front of her face. She never did that when she felt normal (unless you tried to mess with her food :eek:).

I know this sounds like alot of detail, but once you get the procedure in sequence, with a little practice it becomes routine. I like Carol's ideas about dry runs, gradually working up to the real test. It will get both of you more comfortable.

Watching and cheering you on!

Mary ;)

Judi

11-27-2011, 10:14 AM

When Monk first became a diabetic I tried the tail and the lip. The tail was a struggle but the lip was impossible. Monk has a real fear of being secured and fights like a lion. I may try the tail again but I couldn't get him to bleed before he would freak out. The lip would be the hardest for him but I'll try again. The ear he is letting me do if I could just get the blood to flow.

I know Craig uses Annie's ear to test. I think he really gets her ear warm. I think I even tried blow drying the base of Jenny's tail when we were experimenting but she has no blood in her butt or ear. Good Luck!

bowens2

11-27-2011, 11:22 AM

Monk is still high at 2:15. So the one must have been a fluke and not a good idea to take it from the floor because the one within 30 minutes and this one are very high. So I'll stick with 7.5 or 8 for his next injection. In the mean time I will need to leave him for about an hour to get lancets and diastix. I think I've gone thru almost 50 of them in the last 4 days. I don't want to run out.

bowens2

11-27-2011, 02:11 PM

Still high at 4:30. I gave him 7.5 units at 5:15 after he ate. Tomorrow morning I am going to try 8. He ate well and is acting very good. I left him for about 2 hours. I didn't think he could drop very far since he was so high in that amount of time.

k9diabetes

11-27-2011, 10:30 PM

This is starting to look more and more like one of those mysterious bumps in the road that may never be explained!

I think it's okay to work up in small increments but at a fairly fast pace toward what was his previous normal dose of insulin. Slowing down more and waiting longer as he starts to have better blood sugar so there's time for the doses to settle in and give a longer term response.

Natalie

bowens2

11-28-2011, 10:57 AM

He ate at 7:30am this morning but Dr. Merry wanted to test him this morning before giving him is insulin. So this morning at 7:15am he showed 1/10 - second level in the diastic. Didn't really act like he wanted to eat at first. I gave him a very small chicken treat and he started eating. He will no longer eat canned food at all.

He tested 140 at 9am. We then gave him his insulin 7.5 units while he was in the office. He is scheduled for the cushings test next week and Dr. Merry says it would be the same test for Addison's. After asking he did say SamE would be good for him and I bought some at his office. I believe it was $38 for 30 days (30 pills).

Testing done 6/01/2011

Total Protein - 6.4 -- RR: 5.0-7.4
Albumin - 3.6 -- RR: 2.7-4.4
Globulin - 2.8 -- RR: 1.6-3.6
A/G Ratio - 1.3 -- RR: 0.8-2.0
AST - 38 -- RR: 16-68 or 66, hard to read
ALT - 91 -- RR: 12-118
AlkP - 1664 -- RR: 5-131
Total Bilirubin - .02 -- RR: 0.1-0.3
BUN - 14 -- RR: 6-31
Creatinine - .04 (LOW)-- RR: 0.5-1.6
BUN/Creatinine Ratio - 35 (HIGH) -- RR: 4-27
Phosphorus - 4.0 -- RR: 2.5-6.0
Glucose - 107 -- RR: 70-138
Calcium - 10 -- RR: 8.9-11.4
Sodium - 149 -- RR: 139-154
Potassium - 4.4 -- RR: 3.6-5.5
Sodium/Potassium Ratio - 34 -- RR: 27-38
Chloride - 110 -- RR: 102-120
Cholesterol - 291 -- RR: 92-324
CPK - 34 (LOW) -- RR: 59-895

Hemolysis 1+ the following results may be affected by this degree of hemolysis"
INCREASE
ALT May be increased by 15-20%
AST may be increased up to 10%
LDH maybe be increased up to 20%
DECREASED
Direct Bilirubin may be decreased up to 80%

TOTAL T4 - .08 (LOW) RR 1.0-4.0

CBC normal except:
Platelet Count - 341 -- RR: 170-400
WBC - 23 (HIGH) -- RR 4.0-15.5
NEUTROPHILS - 20700 (HIGH) RR 2060-10600

Fructosamine (Antech) - 430 -- RR: 142-460
Less than 500 = Good regulation
500-614 = Fair regulation
Greater than 614 = Poor regulation

LIPASE 1561 (HIGH) -- RR 77-695

I think this is after Monk had been very sick after having his teeth cleaned and a growth removed. He became very ill after getting bile in his lungs when he was trached. Took two rounds of antibiotics to clear him up. I'll have to check. I am also getting the test before this one.

bowens2

11-28-2011, 11:00 AM

Nope he was vomiting and sick staying at the vet and received fluids. Pancreatitis. But it wasn't as bad as the first time a few years back. He was there for 4 days.

bowens2

11-28-2011, 11:01 AM

He had his teeth cleaned and growth removed and the infection in his lungs in January.

bowens2

11-28-2011, 11:12 AM

His test in 10/29/2010 every thing is normal and his Fructosamine is 476. But his Akaline Phosphatese was 1851.

bowens2

11-28-2011, 11:45 AM

I am pretrified of him going too low now. I used to feel reassured when he showed negative on a diastix but now I get sick to my stomach. I'm going to try his lip this evening. I want to let him rest after being stressed at the vets and going to my office.

One other thing I have noticed is that before he became all screwed up his legs looked like they were getting weaker and shaking more. Now his legs look stronger and while they still shake a some, its not as noticeable as it was before. He was slipping a lot when coming up the deck steps even before I left him to board. Now he seems stronger coming up the steps. I was just chalking it up to the diabetes and old age. I was thinking he was 13 but he is not he is 12 1/2 yrs old.

He loves to take walks at the golf course across the street. I didn't do it so much this past summer because it was so hot and I was working a lot. So back about a month ago I was going to take the dogs. I went to leash Monk and he ran about 10 ft so I moved closer to him and he ran again and then all of a sudden he just took off. I was not in running shoes so I was having a hard time and I had my other dog on a leash also. I can tell you I was not a graceful site. I was flailing all over the place, screaming at the top of my lungs for Monk, and screaming for my husband who was on a lawn mower. Well Monkey just goes flying down the middle of the highway oblivious to everything. Luckily no cars were coming because he has no clue about cars. But his little ears where just flapping in the wind and his tail was flying. He was just as happy as can be and even though I was frantic and sick about the possibility of him being hit I could see the joy in his flight. Once he gets to the course because the gate is like kaddy corner to my house he is fine but I always take him on a leash and then let him go on the course. Never have I taken him across not on a leash. Its probably only about 750 ft from my house and only about 150ft of highway but its far enough he can get hit because cars are going 50 miles per hour and don't slow down. But now I often think about this incident and his happiness for such a few seconds of time. I imagine this is how he will reach the pearly gates of heaven when it is his time.

jesse girl

11-28-2011, 12:57 PM

oh i understand completely

jesse has disappeared from my site the last 2 days searching and chasing rabbits its in a lot but fairly large and some time i day dream and not paying attention to jesse and boom i wake up and she is no where in site. after scanning the area i saw that little white tail bobbing around

Oh jesse where did you go ? she says i am just having fun aren't you ? hmmmm

take it slow with the lip i know you want to know what level he is at but let him get used to it you can practice at any time of the day even now just finding a location like your bed and just lifting the lip and investigating the possibilities for both of you . you want it to be a positive experience and it can be

Patty

11-28-2011, 01:04 PM

Betty, have you seen the videos that have been put on the main page since you've been away? http://www.k9diabetes.com/bgtestvideos.html
The carpal pad might be something to try as well.

Remind us which lancets you have.

bowens2

11-28-2011, 01:39 PM

Patty
Yes, I did rewatch and view the new ones too. I thought about trying the carpal pad. While I was sitting at the vets today I kept reaching down and pulling his lip up. Needless to say he was distracted but it looks like that bleeds the easiest so I'm going to try that this evening. The trick will be holding him still long enough to get the blood. I doubt no matter which one I do, he is going to try and bolt if he can. He has always panicked when being secured in any way. He is very timid and feels trapped. The ear if it would bleed is the one spot that even though I hold his ear I don't actually secure him so he doesn't panic.

Believe me when I say all advice in this matter is appreciated. I did go thru a lot of this when he first became a diabetic in 2006 but I had forgotten it. He was so easy and I just didn't have to although he would probably be in a better spot right now if I had. I would have had a better idea where his bg register before I took him in and make things a lot more clear.

Thanks

Cebe

11-28-2011, 02:07 PM

Here's a link to a couple of youtube videos about carpal pad testing. I use the carpal pad. The lip was hard on me and my dog. She couldn't wait for me to get ready and would lick the blood and it stressed her out to have her mouth held for that long (all my fault, but I couldn't get a system together for the lip). My dog is very big at 65 lbs so it's easier to test her at the carpal, but I'm sure you can do it with a smaller dog as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU6wmn5Niog&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuMtkL5dCRs

bowens2

11-28-2011, 02:14 PM

Thanks I watched those videos. If I can't get the lip, I'll try the carpal pad when my husband gets back in town.

Judi

11-28-2011, 02:38 PM

Jenny doesn't like having her lip pulled up but I have her stand on a stand in my bathroom. She gets 2 treats and a hug. I have everything ready, even have the strip in the meter.

the warm washcloth Carol kept reminding me to use has helped a lot. As has the Accu Chek clicker and lancets. If I hold the clicker for a few seconds like Jesse Girl suggested I usually get blood. If not, I poke again while she is still holding still.

I stroke her chin and croon to her. Judi

bowens2

11-29-2011, 05:18 AM

Monk stayed high all day yesterday. I gave him 7.5 units at 5:30pm yesterday with his evening meal because I know he has been dropping lower at night. At 5:30 this morning he was a 1/10 (second lowest on a diastix) so I gave him a treat and then at 7:30 he was negative. I fed him at 7:45 am because I tried to get blood from his lip but he would not bleed and I did not have the strip inserted all the way so I dropped it. So I after he ate I tried again but no blood. So I tried his ear no blood. I'll try again later. I gave him his insulin at 8:00am. He is acting great.

I can't believe he took almost 15.75 and 15.25 units prior to boarding and now is taking it looks like will be 8 or 8.25 and 7.5. Has anyone else ever had to lessen there dosage so dramatically? And the thing is the 8 units sounds more like what he should have regulated at in the first place for his size. We will see if he continues to steadily rise a little bit each day.

If I ramble, I am kind of using this as a journal even though I am charting it also but this lets me go back in detail and read what was going on.

Patty

11-29-2011, 05:43 AM

Betty what gauge lancets are you using?

bowens2

11-29-2011, 05:52 AM

28 plus I just took the meter the pharmacist recommend because I had thrown my old one out because it was really old. It was from my father-in-law who passed away. It's a TrueTrack from Walgreens. I just sent for the other one that someone just recommended on here recently. Lost track of who it was. I thought about trying a different lancet device.

jesse girl

11-29-2011, 06:14 AM

I have used the true track it was accurate below 250 the problem with is it took a very large blood sample compared to the other meters i have used

dont worry to much about the meter concentrate on just the blood sample itself remember just above the canine tooth but you may have to move it around a bit to find the sweet spot every spot may not yield blood but once you find the spot you will do great

you may have to hold it a bit firmer and a second longer

practicing on yourself may help also seeing how the blood is drawn up and the amount you need

Judi

11-29-2011, 06:32 AM

bowens2

11-29-2011, 06:39 AM

Thanks Patty
Even though it took me a minute of courage I did try it on myself about 3 times.

So can you re-insert the test strip and try again? The first time I did re-inserted it, it would not restart but I tried a few minutes ago and it restarted. I put the whole meter and strip in a baggy to use again later if it will work. I started with 25 test strips and did not want to buy more if this other meter is coming but if I finally get it right, I am sure I will go thru this 25 plus more. I am going to keep trying.

He came back up to 1/10 on the diastix at 9:20 so I figured he must not have been that low.

I need to find a different treat to put in his kong since they are saying these chicken treats are so bad. These are thinner, shorter, and cost more than the Waggin Trail and those other but they are still made in China. I suspect at least part of the reported illnesses from them were probably caused by other things like the dog foods they were fed. Monk has never had a problem with them. You know so many people think they are feeding their dogs a good dog food like Beneful when apparently they are not. I used to feed Monk way to many Jumbo bones. I wish I could pin point and say hey yeh Monk ate those chicken treats or Jumbo bones and that made him a diabetic then I could rest assured my other dog or any other dog would not become a diabetic. Monk did not eat chicken treats before he became a diabetic.

I need a treat that I can wedge in his kong that takes awhile to get out. I like to make Monk work for it or use his brain to get it out. I did use wet his kibble and stuff it in but he would not work to get it out. My other dog is funny because she will take her kong to the top of the steps and roll it until it falls down the steps to get the treat out.

bowens2

11-29-2011, 06:58 AM

I just saw Natalie's link for treats back in 2009. The dog treat of the year award was the one I give Monk. Its funny because they still got the dog treat of the year award for 2011-12.

http://www.gripetfoods.com/PetTreatoftheYear.htm

Is this really a good treat or is this something ficticous?

I did find the one chicken strip that is made in America. I may give it a try or try to make my own.

bowens2

11-29-2011, 07:11 AM

Jenny has cushings so I don't know if she counts but for several months 7 units twice a day was the magic # for her. Now it appears 3 1/2 units twice a day is it.

She went scary low like Monk did just out of the blue. It is definitely a moving target.

Natalie said that Monk doesn't act like a cushings dog. He is having a cushings test next week. My vet's partner thinks he has cushings and has been pushing it for almost a year now. My vet discusses it but doesn't push it. If I didn't know better I would think she gave him cushings (I do know that would probably be impossible to give a dog cushings) while he was there just to prove her point because I was emphatic about him not having cushings.

Monk has taken over 14 units twice a day since something like Dec 2006 and went up to 15.75 and 15.25 a few months back when I took him off wet and dry food to almost completely dry because he wouldn't eat the wet anymore.

He has always been so easy to regulate. His curves are always so good. I took it for granted until now. I never worried. He only got sick when he got into something or I forgot his shot or something non-diabetic happend to him. Once he ate Christmas nuts (they were sugared) and peppermint bark. He's sugar shot up but other than that he was fine. Even when he got sick he would get like half the dose but a couple of days later was back to his regular dose.

bowens2

11-29-2011, 07:15 AM

bowens2

11-29-2011, 07:18 AM

My vets partner started this when he got pancreatitis and then again when they had to fool with his injections because he wouldn't eat while he was boarding in July during my son's wedding and his bg went up and down.

Judi

11-29-2011, 07:19 AM

Its hard to explain what he has going on unless he does have cushings but we will see.

Jenny's Mom - Is Jenny regulated now? What does she take for her cushings? Do you have any problem or side effects?

Betty: Jenny is on Lysodren but she had a lot of symptoms and her cushings was confirmed (after we started treatment) with an ultrasound. She has an adrenal tumor.

Over on the cushings forum there are numerous stories of dogs who got false positives for cushings and wound up with very low cortisol. I think you are smart to trust your gut on this.

My vet, who is not a specialist, said that of the 2 tests for cushings, neither is 100% determining. Also, cushings is a slow moving disease so unless Monk has a pot belly, RAVENOUS hunger, crappy skin and been confirmed by the test, I'd trust your gut on this one.

Abby's Mom, Barb, had to fight 3 different vets about Cushings but it seems pretty clear that Abby does not have cushings.

I hate arguing with the vet. hang in there. Judi

bowens2

11-29-2011, 07:22 AM

I went back and read some of your postings on Jenny. Hope she keeps feeling well.

CarolW

11-29-2011, 07:25 AM

About the lip-testing, Betty, I think actually, you're on your way to being able to do that, and to get enough blood, too!

I'd surely HATE to see you keep wasting as many test strips as I did! I wasted about 75 in just a day or so.

Which is why I have a section on my site about testing BGs.

The crucial elements are:

WARM the site before testing. For the lip, I folded the upper lip DOWN, over a wet paper towel soaked in hot running water (but I checked the towel-temp against my wrist before using it - no burning dogs; please!) - and held the lip over it for about 10 seconds. Then blotted it dry quickly with a clean, dry folded paper towel. THEN I'd prick by hand, sinking a larg-gauge lancet all the way.

When I had 21-gauge lancets, I got blood the first time, every time, without having to warm the prick-site first. With 25-gauge, I had to warm the prick site. The lovely thing about pricking by hand is, there's no real force to the prick - just sink the lancet all the way, with a gentle push.

THEN, as you mentioned, came the tricks with the METER!

With the 21-gauge lancets, I didn't have to play test-strip/meter tricks. I'd just insert the test-strip (which turned the meter on), fold Kumbi's lip up, prick, and then pick up the meter, check that the display said to Apply Blood, and then touch the strip to the blood sample. I found if I held my hand in certain ways, I could keep Kumbi's tongue OFF the blood sample.

But when I was using 25-gauge lancets (couldn't GET the 21-gauge), I'd first insert the test strip in the meter JUST enough so it wouldn't fall out, but NOT far enough to turn the meter on.

Then I'd warm the prick site, blot it dry, prick, and while I was waiting for the blood drop, I'd pick the meter up with my free hand, and pull the test strip all the way into the meter:

http://www.coherentdog.org/vek/pullstripin.php

Somebody on another site taught me that little trick - inserting the test strip, but not far enough to turn the meter on.

Being like anybody else who gets discombobulated, there were times I did things like forgetting to wait for the "Apply Blood" display on the meter, and would touch the blood sample with the strip too early, thus wasting the strip. Ugh!

You want mistakes? I think I've made them all!
Tue, 29 Nov 2011 07:24:56 (PST)

bowens2

11-29-2011, 07:32 AM

Even my vet says the test is not conclusive. Monk's belly isn't really any different than it has been. He is the really wiggly stuffed teddy bear type. He seems very flexible. Wiggles all over when he walks and he has always been that way. He can curl up in a tight little ball.

He did have the thirst and the ravenous hunger with low blood sugar. He has never seemed like he got enough food would still want more right after he ate or would start pawing you for his treat or kong. It eased up somewhat but you could tell he was always looking for food but not the way he was while he was low. It was a pacing wild find anything I can hunger. Now he is acting normal. He has never been a big water drinker. I used to try to mix water in his food but now he likes it totally dry. He visited the water bowl a lot when he was real low and drank a lot. Now he is drinking more than he did before he got screwed up but he is drinking a lot at one time and not visiting the water bowl as frequently and not as much as when he was low.

bowens2

11-29-2011, 07:47 AM

Carol - I watched your slides. They are helpful. I think I need to get a bigger gauge lancet. i'll try that next. I was just getting ready to open a new box but I think I'll make a trip to the store and get different ones.

Thanks

I think I am calmer this time around. The first time Monk and I were new to everything from the urine strips, food amounts, and insulin and injections. So maybe I can get it right this time. I know as he grows older this becomes more and more important.

I think there is more information here now than ever.

bowens2

11-29-2011, 07:48 AM

Judi - Monk has not had skin or hair issues at this time. My other dog who they suspected had cushings did have a pot belly and problems with her skin and fur but the skin problems went away. She did live to be 15 with no cushings medication and then died of bladder cancer.

Judi

11-29-2011, 08:01 AM

Some of the low blood sugar symptoms are so close to the cushings symptoms. With Jenny the hunger did not go away based on her blood sugar. She would scarf her supper down in 1 minute.

Look for the Accu Chek lancets if you can. those do seem to draw blood better from my bloodless wonder of a dog also.

I know you are going to get this done!

hugs to you and Monk, Judi

Abby's Mom

11-29-2011, 08:56 AM

The more I read, the more I am so convinced that Vet's sometimes push the Cushings DX. My Abby was diagnosed as having Cushings, and yes, she seems to have the ups and downs and is still not regulated yet, but I think I just haven't found the right food/insulin combination yet. She is NOT insulin resistant, as she gets down into the 100s, and I don't think this would happen if she had Cushings. In addition, she has had no physical signs. She is a good eater, and will scarf things down, but only when her numbers seem to be running higher for longer term.

Wishing you the best, we test at the base of the tail, and it works for us. Abby would not stand for the lip at all!!

bowens2

11-29-2011, 10:03 AM

When I say stuffed teddy bear, I don't mean he is fat because he is skin and bones now. He's like one of those floppy stuffed animals that kids drag around.

Its funny because even before he was looking small and skinny and today its like he is holding himself more erect and strong so he doesn't look quite so pathetic compared to my other dog who is not a big dog but solid as a rock. He's moving around with more confidence. I just trained her to our electric fence and they have been out in the sloppy wet yard together. I wasn't putting his collar on until today. I used to leave him in the garage with the door up enough to get out but I don't anymore even with his collar on I would worry if he went to low that he would wander out of the boundary.

I have to leave him alone for awhile to take my mother to the doctors but I feel like he will be fine. He is running high again so I am pretty sure he won't bottom out while I'm gone.

Patty

11-29-2011, 11:16 AM

Look for the Accu Chek lancets if you can. those do seem to draw blood better from my bloodless wonder of a dog also.

I just wanted to add they are the Accuchek Softclix Lancets if you go looking for them. There are a couple different kinds.

eileen

11-29-2011, 12:16 PM

The more I read, the more I am so convinced that Vet's sometimes push the Cushings DX.

I have to agree with you on this, Barb! Over the span of 7 years and being an active member of several diabetic groups I have seen this time and time again.

Mildred had the test run back in 2005 immediately following her cataract surgery when her glucose level was extremely high. I can't remember which test was performed but she did test as a possible positive.
As soon as her OP took her off the post op steroidal eye drops her levels returned to a lower range.

Because she never showed any of the outward signs of having Cushings we never followed thru with more testing.

Having both diabetes and hypothyroidism many of these symptoms can mimic what some vets percieve to be cushings.

Judi

11-29-2011, 12:46 PM

Leslie (Squirt's Mom) on the Cushing's Forum wrote an excellent explanation just today.

In summary, she pointed out that if something is wrong with a dog their body releases cortisol to fight it. All of the tests for cushings are measuring cortisol levels, if elevated, they call it cushings. Her dog had a tumor on his spleen, causing elevated cortisol and an incorrect cushings diagnosis. When the tumor was removed the cortisol went back to normal.

So, I think with our dogs who have more than one thing going on, you can see why the cortisol might be elevated but why it is so important to make sure the dog has other symptoms and truly is a Cushdog.

bowens2

11-29-2011, 03:37 PM

OK thanks I look for them tomorrow. I was frantic my mom's 10 minute check up ended being a two hour ordeal. But Monk was fine still high. Gave him 7.75 for the evening. He had 8 units this morning. We will see where that takes us.

CarolW

11-29-2011, 06:37 PM

Gosh; sorry about your mother's ordeal (and yours!). Very glad, though, that Monk was okay when you got home!

Hugs,
Tue, 29 Nov 2011 18:37:04 (PST)

bowens2

11-30-2011, 04:54 AM

Monk was 3/4 on the urine test this morning. I thought he was negative but for some reason when I saw the urine in the laundry tub I decided to test it again and it read 3/4.

We upped his units to 8.5

Going to get more lancets today to see if today will be the day we get blood. I feel like a vampire.

Monk continues to act like he feels great. Stronger and ate with no urging this morning and Chic (aka Chiclet) and I had to wake him. He was snoring away which is a very re-assuring sound during the night. This morning he even stratched at the door after he ate. I let him out to see if he had to potty again but he went directly to his spot in the garage and seems very comfortable despite the cold weather but the garage says its 51 degrees inside so it should be warm enough for him. That was his usual routine for years even if it was 13 degrees outside. The garage stays about 10 to 15 degrees warmer than outside. Sometimes I would have to forceably make him come in.

bowens2

11-30-2011, 06:13 AM

AT 9am he is now negative on the diastix. So since this is his urine I am assuming and more or less a reading from 2 hours ago before he ate. I gave him 1 1/2 treats.

heinzle

11-30-2011, 07:02 AM

AT 9am he is now negative on the diastix. So since this is his urine I am assuming and more or less a reading from 2 hours ago before he ate. I gave him 1 1/2 treats.

The strips read all the urine that is voided from the bladder so, from what I understand, urine strips will indicate the HIGHEST the sugar level was in the urine was between potty breaks.

MaryLea

11-30-2011, 12:28 PM

Betty, I'm happy to hear that Monk is doing better. Watching and cheering you on,

Mary ;)

bowens2

11-30-2011, 04:14 PM

High at 6:30pm Gave him 8 units right after his food. Prancing and dancing again and even pranced about with Chic.

Tried to get blood from his lip . It did bleed a little after clicking three times but I couldn't get the meter to it. By that time he was getting frantic.

Stopped by Walgreens. The pharmicist was emphatic that the lancets did not make a difference and they did not have any that were not in the box with a meter. I was running late and worried so I did not stop anywhere else. She did say she could order me one. I'll check CVS tomorrow.

I did see where the Lifestyle Lite needed less blood. Plus you can get a small one that would be easier to put the strip in one handed. Has anyone had tried this meter?

CarolW

11-30-2011, 04:45 PM

A pharmacist who says lancet gauge doesn't make a difference hasn't likely tested dogs! (hehe)

Even pharmacists can be wrong at times!

Sounds as though you're making progress with the lip idea; and that would be a real boon to you and Monk, because it's really painless!

Keep up the good work of working at it, Betty!
Wed, 30 Nov 2011 16:45:16 (PST)

bowens2

11-30-2011, 04:56 PM

I'm sorry I meant lancet devices.

Ladybug

11-30-2011, 05:10 PM

Hi Betty,

Tried to get blood from his lip . It did bleed a little after clicking three times but I couldn't get the meter to it. By that time he was getting frantic.

We also do the "lip stick". Ladybug NEVER did like the clicking noise of the lancing device. I hold the lancet between my fingers and stick her by hand. Maybe Monk may have gotten frantic from the noise of the lancing device.

Also, the gauge of the lancets do make a difference. I've tried the 31 gauge which are the thinnest possible, supposedly no pain involved, but I don't get any blood. I always buy 26 or 28 gauge lancets.

Our routine - get Ladybug situated (all I have to tell her is that it's "lippy time" and she comes running!), she lays on the bed, I put the lancet and meter on the bed close by, put the strip in the meter and it turns on, prick her lip, put down the lancet and grab the meter while I'm still holding her lip. Takes maybe all of 15 seconds or less once she gets up on the bed.

Will be watching for your success which I know will come very very soon! :D

Linda and Ladybug :)

bowens2

11-30-2011, 05:20 PM

If Monk ever comes running it will probably be a cold day in hell, I have to leash him. He is a very timid dog and can fight like a lion. He actually growls at me if I try to come at him on the couch to get his bg. He hides under the table or goes upstairs and hides. But the couch is the worse place for him. You are so lucky. I don't think Monk will ever just give in let alone come running. I thought about the bed but I think it will be like the couch but I was thinking about it last night. I just hate for him to hate the bed because if I really want to keep an eye on him I put him on the bed with me during the night.

MaryLea

11-30-2011, 05:35 PM

Betty, we used 26 gauge lancets in order to get enough blood for testing. Ruffles would come when I called her, but I'm sure that's because she smelled the treats which were sitting close by! :D

I do not reccall if you've tried "dry runs" or not. Might help.

Mary ;)

Ladybug

12-01-2011, 03:13 AM

Hi Betty,

I don't think Monk will ever just give in let alone come running.

It took quite a while for me and Ladybug to get into this routine. In the beginning, I was just like you, thinking I would never be able to test her. She would go crazy, running around the house like a Jack Russel! :eek:

But it will happen, just be patient and relax. When you are tense, Monk can feel that and he becomes tense as well.

Also, have plenty of treats on hand - one or two before and after testing. Now, I only give one treat after testing and it's usually a piece of broccoli or a green bean, which she loves.

Linda and Ladybug :)

bowens2

12-02-2011, 04:26 AM

Monk ran high all day yesterday on 9 units and I gave him 8.5 in the evening. He was 1/2 on the diastix this morning. I gave him 10 units this morning which makes me a little nervous because he went low on 10 units on Thanksgiving but I really don't think it will happen but we will see. The bad part is not knowing just how low he is. I gave him 8.5 and 8 the day before. This evening if he is ok I will give him 9.5. I guess we will slowly get back to his regular dose but I'm just wondering if that was really too high of a dose as he built up. Maybe he just stayed just below the radar at times and then when he stayed at the vets with no activity dropped dangerously low. The reason I say this is because his legs were beginning to shake more and more and now they are not really shaking at all. Like I mentioned before he looks stronger than before I took him to board. I still can't believe they didn't spot check him at least.

I tried twice yesterday no blood. This morning I tried the ear again and he was ok but I couldn't get blood. Then I went for the lip and he got upset so I let him go. I am going to try again this evening.

Linda - I am not nervous about it. I stay calm but I can't get blood. This morning I took the cap off the lancet device and used it that way. I think it went all the way thru the ear and even got my finger a little but no blood. I poked him three times. I was going to try the lip that way but we didn't get that far. He was totally throwing a fit so I let him go. I am going to try to do it that way again this evening but warm the ear more. His poor little ear is red where I have been poking him can't imagine doing this to his ear six times or more in one day. Please feel free to keep mentioning anything you think of that would help because it does give me ideas. Seems like you take little tips from everyone until you come up with your own way by combining what works best.

He does have a little growth on that ear that I swear he didn't have before he went to board and I tought about trying that but I was afraid of what might happen. Has anyone everyone done that? I thought I read someone that had at one time.

I went to purchase the FreeStyle Life Lite because you need the least amount of blood but the test strips are $79 (although it is 50 strips) so I thought I would keep trying with what I have for right now because I can't even get enough blood for that. I would buy it any way if I thought it would work.

bowens2

12-02-2011, 04:53 AM

Ok well I just tried doing the ear and the carpal pad on the couch that went over like a lead balloon. He squealed when I pricked the carpal pad.

bowens2

12-02-2011, 04:57 AM

MaryLea I can't find any lancets bigger than a 28. Can I ask where you get them?

Also does anyone use the SamE? I got some from the vet and replaced the milk thistle with it because Dr. Merry says it has milk thistle in it. I am assuming SamE for dogs is the same as SamE for humans. I bought it from Dr. Merry but I haven't looked I would think some place like Sam's Club would be cheaper.

eileen

12-02-2011, 05:44 AM

MaryLea I can't find any lancets bigger than a 28. Can I ask where you get them?

ReliOn 26g lancets can be purchased at Walmart or Sam's Club.

http://www.relion.com/diabetes/lancets

I know many use this thicker size but for Mildred I have always had to use the very thin, 30 or 31g.

bowens2

12-02-2011, 06:35 AM

OK Monk is negative at 9:30am. Now this used to make me happy. Now I am a little nervous even though he acts fine.

I'm going to try his ear again. I tried the base of his tail but no blood.

bowens2

12-02-2011, 06:36 AM

Thanks Eileen I'll look there today.

bowens2

12-02-2011, 06:51 AM

Just tried the base of his tail got blood but not enough. Here is what I think I might be able to do. I usually give Monk a kong stuff with a chicken treat (I know they are not supposed to be any good but its the only treat that I could find that did not raise his bg and I could wedge in his kong. He has been eating them since about 6 mo AFTER he became a diabetic) so I am going to stuff one and let him concentrate on that while I try the base of his tail. I did that a few minutes ago and got a tiny bit of blood while he had the kong in his mouth but my other dog grabbed the kong.

So that may work for me. I am using the lancet device without the cap on it. It seems to work.

I think I will actually stuff his kong with kibble and regular canned chicken to see if that will keep his attention enough for me to draw blood. But I think I will wait and get the 26 gauge lancet.

Thanks for everyones help

Judi

12-02-2011, 07:05 AM

try to get one of those microwaveable heating things to warm up his butt and do the dab of vasoline if you can. Jenny's lips are looking rough but if I put the lancet on a lower setting I don't get blood so I am struggling along with you again too.

hugs, Judi

Abby's Mom

12-02-2011, 07:36 AM

I test Abby at the base of her tail, and found initially that warming the area, certainly helped. I think in time, once you test more frequently, blood seems to flow better.

I noticed when I was away on vacation, testing was not done so frequently, so it seemed like it was harder to get blood and test Abby when I got back.

Vasoline definitely helps, as this helps pool the blood, and the bood does not smear. I used the (thickest) lancet I can get, and poke her about three times in the same spot, using the lancet device on the deepest setting.

Also... I used the BEST treat to reward her. I boiled some chicken breast, and used this to entice her. You can cut them up in about 1/4's so you could freeze for later use. Now, she is so use to me testing, she continues to sleep in her spot, and when I call her she comes (no treats are given now). If Monk likes the dried Chicken strips, I am sure he would love the real stuff, and this NEVER raised Abby's numbers. I just would give her a kibble size.

SandyL

12-02-2011, 08:26 AM

I've found since the weather is much cooler, I have to heat tiggy little butt to get a really good drop of blood.

Sandy

bowens2

12-02-2011, 09:59 AM

i think I have some of those warmers you are talking about. I have gloves and slippers I think somewhere unless I gave them away. Great idea Judi! My washcloth kept getting cold.

He is back up to 3/4 on the diastix so I think it is safe to leave him for awhile.

bowens2

12-02-2011, 10:02 AM

My daughter just informed me they have to bring both of their dogs for Christmas. Poor Monk will be a nervous wreck but I can't tell my daughter not to come. I'll love it but my husband will be right there a nervous wreck with Monk. I'm one of those people that dream of a house full of dogs instead of a house full of grandkids. Of course I won't get much done.

Judi

12-02-2011, 10:12 AM

Sandy (Tiggy's Grandma) suggested it for Jenny's bloodless butt. hope it works on Monk!

MaryLea

12-02-2011, 12:10 PM

We purchased all our supplies at Wal-Mart due to cost. Hope you can find them there.

Mary ;)

bowens2

12-02-2011, 03:20 PM

Good news I did it. Bad news the meter says 500. I gave 1/2 unit more than last night. If I had know he was at 500 I probably would have given him 1 whole unit more but its early morning when he drops low. I did give one whole unit increase this morning

I took his bed put it on the kitchen floor. Put a nice soft green Christmas blanket in it. I leashed him took him over to the bed which is in bright light. I forgot about the 26 gauge lancets and tried with the 28 but then I got the 26 and a different lancet device (came with the Nova Max meter - free one it came in the mail today) I put a warm cloth on his behind and held it there. I gave him his kong with a small piece of fresh rostisere chicken without the skin and deep in the breast. But after several attempts with the lid on the new lancet device I finally took the lid off and did it without it with the 26 gauge lancet. While he was concentrating and licking his kong I kept him still long enough to prick and squeeze it. Poor thing has a real red spot though even after I washed the blood off. I hate to see what it is like after six readings in one day. He just ate about 30 minutes before and had his shot about 5 minutes after he finished his broccoli. I tried to get more blood so I could test with the new meter but he'd had about enough. I had just tried his ear again front and back prior to that and had no luck.

So we will see I am going to try again around 9 or 10 but I'll keep checking his urine also.

bowens2

12-02-2011, 03:30 PM

bowens2

12-02-2011, 03:31 PM

If he is going to jump around any way I may switch insulins. I kept him on the Lantus because he has always done so well. First I will see if we can get him on an even keel again.

jesse girl

12-02-2011, 03:53 PM

never used the lid always did without did not know what it was used for till people on the forum talked about it sometimes its good to not be so smart and read directions

you did it congratulation it opens up so many possibilities on getting your baby back on track

basing a dose on one number is difficult i know we dont want them to stay at high levels but adjusting the basal part of the insulin (bodies production of sugar) with the peakiness of nph that address the bolus side( the food) makes it difficult to find the correct dose to settle on

the next thing maybe starting tomorrow is figuring out monkys trend and seeing exactly what curve he has and what level he is throughout the day if you and monkey are up to it and the correct adjustment

what i am concerned about your at a higher reading and you have been getting negative readings on the strip there could be some huge swings in blood sugar and that can be a sign of rebounding if you are seeing rebounding you may have to do another curve in a couple days just to determine whether the numbers are elevated due to rebounding

the little pokey red marks do go away and when the blood sugar comes down they will go away faster we have been poking for over a year and a half about 5 times a day and there is no lasting affects from poking remember this is you best tool to keeping monkey safe .

also to many added treats throughout the day could possibly give wide variations in numbers so you may want to give very small reward for testing and maybe cutback all together as he gets used to it . we stop giving treats a long time ago because it affected jesses numbers so much

the thing you want to do is get back to a routine day in day out settle on a dose do a curve and adjust the dose to the trend you are getting from the numbers i know carrol talks about the patience hat maybe a discipline hat would help also i know it is difficult but you want monkey getting back on the wright track and keeping him safe healthy and happy he is definitely loved

MaryLea

12-02-2011, 05:22 PM

I did find the lancets at Walmart MaryLea but believe it or not Walmart is somewhere around $15 a bottle higher on Monk's lantus. We also have to pay sales tax in Ohio now on pet prescriptions. So that added another $7.00 onto a $108 dollar prescription.

Did you see the link for a pet Rx card? The site is http://www.yourrxcard.com/ You will have to look for where to get the pet card, as that is the home site for humans.

We used NPH, so never priced Lantus. Glad you got a reading; hopefully it will get easier as you go along.

Mary ;)

Patty

12-02-2011, 05:44 PM

:D Congratulations Betty :D
Hopefully testing will continue to get easier for both of you!

When I tried Lantus with Ali up in NY in '09, Kmart had the cheapest price at $99.79 and had a 5% discount for the PetK program. A human discount card there was 20% off.

bowens2

12-02-2011, 08:19 PM

Tried again finally got blood but the meter errored out. Tried again not enough blood and the meter errored out. Monkey's poor poor rump is so red with surface blood. He acts like I am punishing him. But he is laying there quitely most of the time. So in the morning we try again. I forgot to get the vasoline and so I used Aquaphor which is vasoline based but I think I might have gotten it on the strip even though I wiped my hands.

bowens2

12-02-2011, 08:25 PM

I think I was paying less than $99.95 at Krogers in 2009 because I am paying $108 right now but it has gone up every 6 months a minumum of $3.00 once it went up in a three month increment and $6 instead of the $3. In 2006 I was paying $69.00 when Monk first became a diabetic. Most places are $15 to $20 higher than my Kroger. Even a Kroger near by charged $20 more. Doesn't make since but I check back every once in a while to see if the price has changed. Most of the K-Marts have closed down around here. I think we have one about 20 miles away.

bowens2

12-02-2011, 08:36 PM

I don't get this card but I will try it. It shows my Kroger as a participating pharmacy.

k9diabetes

12-02-2011, 09:12 PM

Target has been matching Walmart's prices for prescriptions too and I believe they have pet pricing, some sort of program. Might not be better than Walmart but you never know.

I got Katie's thyroid meds - 135 pills - there this month for $8.12. The vet's supplier had upped the price 5-fold so they suggested I buy it direct at a pharmacy.

:) Congrats on a successful test! :)

That's great that he sat still for you! What a good boy.

But it sure is a mystery what's going on with his blood sugar. It would be nice if he could get an abdominal ultrasound. Maybe that would shed some light on things.

Natalie

Shellie

12-02-2011, 11:03 PM

ReliOn 26g lancets can be purchased at Walmart or Sam's Club.

http://www.relion.com/diabetes/lancets

I know many use this thicker size but for Mildred I have always had to use the very thin, 30 or 31g.

I've always used the 28g on Hank's lip and gotten very nice drops. I don't think I could use a larger lancet without hurting him. I did try the carpal pad with a 26g and it hurt him and now I can't even get near them without him freaking out.

Just take your time...and relax...don't stress your pup out. It's a lot of stuff to think of doing all at the same time but you can do it! :)

bowens2

12-03-2011, 05:20 AM

Well I got blood three times this morning with two meters but they both errored out. So I guess I will have to get more test strips. I didn't think I left them open for any length of time but both are erroring out. I thought it was just the test strips last night but it must be them all. It upsets me because there are about 13 left in one bottle. The other Nova Max came with ten strips but there is one left but I doubt if that is going to work.

Judi

12-03-2011, 05:30 AM

Betty I've been getting a lot of error messages so I tested myself again. Error message the first try, a reading the second. I wasn't just putting the edge of the strip on the blood and letting it soak up.

We seem to have a lot of the same problems on this testing stuff. I hope your strips are still good but it is frustrating to finally get blood and not get a reading! hang in there. Judi

bowens2

12-03-2011, 04:35 PM

I went out and bought new test strips. Had a perfect blood drop, tested, error message. I was very upset. Monk has been testing negative all day so I wanted to make sure he was not too low. I sat down with him and try to do his lip again, once again a no go. So I went for his poor butt again. I was so excited because I didn't warm him or anything (but I did rub him first) and got the perfect drop of blood. Put the test strip to it. It beeped. Took it off and low and behold E-2. That is three times today with two different bottles of test strips but I'll do it again this evening and try to be more careful even though I thought I was being careful.
Thanks for the advice.

Gave him 10.5 units this morning and 9.5 this evening.

k9diabetes

12-03-2011, 05:11 PM

Are you having the same problem if you test yourself?

There is usually an 800 number you can call for the meter company and ask them for advice and/or report a problem if you still have trouble even when testing yourself.

Make sure you just touch the end of the strip to the blood drop and let it do the filling for you. If you push the end of the strip into the blood, it will not fill properly.

Natalie

Ladybug

12-03-2011, 05:14 PM

Congratulations!!

You and Monk are having great success!! :D

I remember when I first started testing Ladybug, I went through at least 100 strips (maybe more!) until we got it right! And I also had a lot of error messages with the meter which I found out later were "human errors" and not the strips. It's just a part of the learning process. But you are definitely on the right track! :D

Linda and Ladybug :)

bowens2

12-03-2011, 05:21 PM

I did try the number but I did test him again and I don't know what I did different but it says 407. So the diastix said 1/2 about 10 minutes prior and he was negative on the diastix at 11am this morning and at 6pm. He ate at 6pm so I guess that is his food kicking in now with 9.5 units. I almost forgot his insulin he got that about 15 minutes after he ate. I am going to try again at 10pm. I am putting a small piece of fresh rotisseire chicken in the kong each time - its not much but is this going to have any kind of affect on him since this is about the 4th or 5th time today? Its not even say the equivalent of a tbsp if you smash it down.

He behaves better at night than in the morning. He was really good tonight. I do have to verbally correct him when he tries to get up. But his morning he squealed like I really hurt his hip just trying to put him back down and even tried to get nippy which he rarely ever does. I thought maybe his side hurts but he is a really big baby. He squeals like he is dying if Chic even brushes him.

bowens2

12-03-2011, 05:31 PM

Thank you guys for all of your help. I didn't think I would ever be able to do it. But hopefully it gets easier. I feel so mean. Monk is such a baby. I am a lot sterner on my other dog because she is head strong but Monk has always been babied. Like I said he's like a little floppy stuffed animal especially now that he is so skinny. He is so sweet you just feel terrible for correcting him for anything. My new dog (I call her my new dog and she just turned 2) looks at me like: Yeh right! Sure tell me that again and I will think about doing it".

So thanks to all of for your help I think we are at least on the right track to recovery and good readings.

I am going to go back and reread some prior posts on the most recommended meter. The one I am using is a TRUEtrack. But I know you guys said there are some meters that could be off as much as 40 or more points.

bowens2

12-03-2011, 06:07 PM

Can anyone tell me which meter they consider the best? Most posts were from 2009 on meters. I'm willing to get which every meter gives the most accurate readings all around.

I went back and read some of the older posts and other info that I either forgot or just never knew. Really helps and maybe it registers in my brain better now than 5 years ago because I not so frantic. Well as long as he's not having seizures.

Judi

12-03-2011, 06:21 PM

I was trying to read through CraigM's thread because he is the king of comparing meters.

I use the One Touch Ultra. The one time we compared it at the vets, mine read something like 183 and theirs said 234 so it was off 50 at that range.

I think the Alphatrak is the most accurate for animals but the strips are supposed to be really expensive.

bowens2

12-03-2011, 06:31 PM

Ahh Husband if finally home from Florida. Monk loves his daddy so maybe he can hold him and keep him calm while I get his blood for the next few days until he gets more use to it. Or then again maybe Daddy will feel sorry for him and let him go. Protect me Daddy!

bowens2

12-03-2011, 06:32 PM

I wonder how the TrueTrack measures up. I guess I can always compare it to the vets on Thursday.

jesse girl

12-03-2011, 06:39 PM

it appears from what i see on the forum individual dogs can have some variances on the same meters used

it seems on the forum the one touch ultra and the relion is widely used with good result from both

i have used both on jesse and had similar results and my jesse is about 28 pounds so yours is in the same weight range it seems smaller dogs have more accurate results

i think the one touch is a better quality meter but the relion has less expensive strips i use the prodigy auto code for the last 6 months and have had good results but no one else that i know is using it so no comparison to anybody else it was the least expensive as far as strips and for all my meters it used the smallest amount of blood

i have used the true track with very accurate results below 200 but it did need the largest blood sample than all my meters and was off a bit above 250

bowens2

12-03-2011, 07:11 PM

jesse girl

12-03-2011, 07:29 PM

I just used 4 strips and collected blood but got an error message on all 4. Should have known my husband said it just wasn't right to do that to him. He Couldn't believe that I would do that to him every day. Hahaha. I should have known. That's his baby.

But I am upset that I had enough blood but couldn't get a reading. I'll try again in the morning. Maybe I'll try the Relion. The strips are certainly cheaper. I can't believe from four strips I couldn't get a reading.

Where did you get the prodigy auto code? I had the Nova Max but those strips are more expensive too.

i got the prodigy auto code on ebay its a talking meter i think it was 30 dollars and they gave 50 or a 100 strips with. i was able to buy strips on ebay between 5 and 10 dollars per 50 its really the only way i can afford to test jesse needs a bit more testing than most to keep her safe

bowens2

12-03-2011, 08:06 PM

Ok thanks I'll check it out.

SandyL

12-03-2011, 08:50 PM

Have you tried testing on yourself?? It sounds like you're not holding the strip correctly to let the blood "wick" into the strip. If the blood doesn't go into the strip fast enough, you will get an error.

Another reason to get the error is that the strip isn't in correctly, or just isn't ready to receive the blood.

I'd really try testing on yourself a few times so that you get the hang of the angel you need to successfully get a blood sample. Once you can do it on yourself with no problem, try it on your baby

Sandy

bowens2

12-03-2011, 09:01 PM

Well I thought I did. I'm going to do it again tomorrow morning (without my husband around) I thought I let it take it in to the strip just right but you never know. I had a great drop of blood. Maybe I started it too soon (maybe before the beep - I can't be sure) so I'll do again and again and again till I get it right.

Are any meters less touchy? If I can change meters and use less strips from foul ups I might as well pay more. I seriously thought about the FreeStyle Life Lite because it said it took the least blood of all.

Patty

12-04-2011, 05:02 AM

The new Nova Max meter that was posted about takes very little blood and you can see it draw into the strip like the OneTouch strips.

You could request a free one sent to you to try out.
http://www.novacares.com/DMINE0711/

bowens2

12-04-2011, 05:04 AM

Got blood and got a result - He is only at 55 this morning. He is acting fine. I just fed him. I have not given him his injection yet. Thought I would wait about 10 minutes.

I guess the thing I don't know is if the meter is right at 55.

I could not use the Nova Max at all. I did not get a reading on anyone of the 10 strips so I definitely won't buy those strips. It must be for the "pros". I thought I would try both meters to see the reading but two strips and I could only get an error message.

I will test him again in an hour to be on the safe side.

He is acting fine but does anyone think I should put syrup on his lip to give him a temporary boost even though the is acting normal.

I am going to take him outside for a little activity.

bowens2

12-04-2011, 05:09 AM

Patty

12-04-2011, 05:12 AM

That 55 would be about 83 adjusted on my meter but at low numbers you really want to take them at face value since meters are more accurate in lower ranges.

If it were Ali, I'd give some syrup and be cautious about activity which could lower his bg.

I do worry about all the error messages on your meter Betty. I like Sandy's suggestion about testing it on yourself a few times to see how it's registering on a human.

bowens2

12-04-2011, 05:12 AM

I reread my notes he was not high most of the day. He was low in the morning and did not get high until evening. So 10.5 units is that I am giving him just to be on the safe side. If I can get readings all day I can make a better decision tomorrow. I edited the above post and thought it was easier to just explain my crazyness in a new post.

Patty

12-04-2011, 05:16 AM

I was going to give him 11 units today since he was high yesterday but I am a little hesitant since he is at 55. Yesterday he went from 1/4 on the diastix to neg in two hours but then stayed high all day. Then stayed fairly low until evening according to the diastix. Then he was at 407 at 8:15pm but back to 1/2 at midnight.

Hopefully we can get readings all day but I think for today I will stay at 10.5 for today. Any opinions?

I'd be hesitant too if he's too if he's actually dropping. It's possible the neg diastick 2 hours later was refecting his earlier low status and he was rising. Hard to know.

You might delay longer than 10 min and drop his dose to 10u. I wonder if the higher numbers are a result of rebound or if he's rising through the day.

bowens2

12-04-2011, 05:18 AM

OK I will do that but I did try to be even more cautious than I though I was already being the TrueTrack and with the Nova Max. I know I can get a reading on myself.

As far as activity I was thinking backwards I guess. I was thinking it would help bring him back up instead of dropping him. Glad you pointed that out. I was just going to let him walk around the yard though not take a walk or anything.

Thanks

Patty

12-04-2011, 05:21 AM

If his insulin was waning you're right it could bring him up.
If it's still active though it might drop him.

Congrats on your reading this morning :)

I think it's kind of trial and error at this point Betty. Figuring out what dose doesn't create any lows then hopefully you can tweak things to even him back out.

bowens2

12-04-2011, 05:22 AM

I just gave him his 10.5 units (about 15 minutes after his food). Now if I give him syrup is this going to screw up his readings for the next few hours. Or should I try to test him now and see if he is getting any kind of rise or not. Would he in 1/2 hour?

bowens2

12-04-2011, 05:23 AM

I think I will give him the syrup. I would rather error on the side of safety.

bowens2

12-04-2011, 05:25 AM

He is sleeping though. When he gets too low he has been pacing and hungry. I haven't given him syrup yet.

bowens2

12-04-2011, 05:27 AM

Oh I didn't see the post about dropping him back. I will just keep an eye on him now. At 10 he ran high all day.

bowens2

12-04-2011, 05:35 AM

I did give him a about 1/4 tsp syrup on a chicken strip.

bowens2

12-04-2011, 05:36 AM

I got nervous thought it would be best to be safe until I can compare the meter with the vet. He wants to go out to the garage which is usually a good sign for him.

bowens2

12-04-2011, 05:45 AM

Was that too much? He wouldn't let me put the syrup under his lip so I gave it to him on a small piece of chicken jerky.

Now that he had syrup, I thought I would test him at 9:45. He went to his spot in the garage.

bowens2

12-04-2011, 06:21 AM

I used to always post Monk's curves but I could only find one from 2009 on this message board and it must have been the last one that I posted. I need to check back with the vet and get the old curves since that time that they have. Although they probably won't have much bearing on what is going on now. He isn't even close to the same dose as before.

I really thought I would see a steady climb until he reached his prior to boarding dose or close too it.

bowens2

12-04-2011, 07:39 AM

I did a control test and I tested on my own finger. They were fine. I used twelve test strips and got and error message every time on Monk just now. I poked the crap out of him. A couple of times I thought for sure I would get a reading.

I am going to go buy the FreeStyle lite. I hope I am not wasting my money.

Monk was still showing negative on the diastix at 10:10. But he seems fine.

Patty

12-04-2011, 09:42 AM

Sounds like you're going to be home today to watch him Betty, and you know his behaviors best so can catch if he's "off."

bowens2

12-04-2011, 10:13 AM

He is still negative on the diastix at 1:00 but he also did just chase a dog out of the yard. I tried two more times and got error messages. I think the droplet of blood is just not big enough. After the game (on tv) I am going to go get the FreeStyle Lite to see if that will work with him. I checked the internet and I can get strips for just a little more than what I am paying now for the TrueTrack. My husband will be here with him and I think he is low but not low low like he must have been this morning.

Judi

12-04-2011, 10:41 AM

you are going to get this done I just know it! hang in there

CarolW

12-04-2011, 12:33 PM

I agree with Judi. You ARE going to get this done - and suddenly, it will be easy for you! Good work, Betty!
Sun, 4 Dec 2011 12:33:43 (PST)

bowens2

12-04-2011, 04:46 PM

Oh yes the FreeStyle Lite Mini worked perfect the first time. He was negative all day which worried me. He ate at 6pm but I made my husband wait and I gave him his shot 6:45. I wanted to see if his urine was still low and he was negative once again so I was anxious to get his blood sugar. He is at 138 on the FreeStyle Lite. It took so much less blood. After going thru about 16 test strips today I figured I would probably be saving money. I also found the test strips online for about half the price. So I will be ordering them in a couple of days if this meter is always this easy to use.

It did not come with any control solution. So I guess I am going to have to order that also. But I am so happy and this meter was so quick. Monk is still sitting there in his bed in the same place with his kong.

I made a little table out of a shoe size box and put all of the stuff I need on it. Right next to the kitchen counter. Its nice and bright in my kitchen. I put him in his bed give him his kong - I get on the floor - put a baggy full of really warm water (I must have given away my microwave gloves and slippers that I was going to use) on his rear for a minute - then I prick and actually turn the lancet (someone on here suggested that and I didn't think I could do it but I did) - I don't get very much blood but the FreeStyle Lite did just what it said it would do the very first time with so very little blood.

I am so happy! I did back off a half unit to be on the safe side. If I can get numbers that easy tomorrow Monk and I can get on the right track. Now I have to calibrate it with Dr. Merry so I can see how accurate it is.

Monk had 10.5 this morning and 9 this evening after running low all day.