Brandy Yellow Lab Insulin Not Working Help

[MadMadMom]

Hi all, I am not sure where to start. I am a little overwhelmed right now. Our yellow lab was just diagnosed last Friday with Diabetes. She has always been a little overweight, but not much. For the last year we have been feeding her according the to bag measurement and she has slowly thinned out, but over the last month, she started losing weight and fast. She was at 74 lbs at her biggest, and she weighed 64lbs on Fridays vet visit. Today she weighed in at 59 lbs. Her lab from friday came back with a blood sugar of 880. I read it was supposed to be under 120. It has been a long, anxious and sad weekend. Today couldnt come fast enough. Today was the day she started her regulation (the vet was not in on Monday or we would have started then) When we found out on Friday I knew there was no way we were putting her down. She still has so much life left in her. The Vet said other than this she was healthy, good heart, blood pressure etc. Since I am a novice to this and a week and a half ago I didnt even know diabetes in dogs even existed. I put what was wrong with her (lots of drinking, urinating, weight loss) into a search engine and diabetes is what came up. I have spent hours researching and learning about it. I thought we could afford everything or could scrape up enough to. Our visit was $159 on friday and $160 today. It will be that much until she get regulated. She will spend from 7:30 til 5pm once a week at the vet til then They gave us a vial of Humulin N and she gets 12 units in the morning and at night. The vet said this is no where near where she needs to be but it is the amount she needs to start out on. After we left I looked at the paperwork and started to think about it. Just at this low dosage it is only going to last for 4.5 days and is $42 dollars a bottle. Is there a lower cost that is the same thing. Is there such thing as a generic match to it. When I am adding it up, it will be over $300 a month for insulin that isnt even the level she needs to be at. That doesnt include the Vet, and food and everything else. Am I in over my head? She is my baby and I WILL NOT put her down before its time, especially over money. But at the same time I am not sure what to do. Please, anyone who know anything about this please give us some advice. She is our 4 boys best friend, always by thier side, she is part of our family. Thank you for any advice:(

[MattiesDad]

Hi, MadMadMom:

I'm still learning about all this myself, but I get the Type N Reli-On from Walmart for about $25.

[Cornspot]

Hi, MadMadMom:

I'm still learning about all this myself, but I get the Type N Reli-On from Walmart for about $25.

I use the Relion also, and I don't use prescription food (I feed a grainless kibble--chicken & potato based)

This is a great place to get your questions answered!

[MattiesDad]

Just at this low dosage it is only going to last for 4.5 days and is $42 dollars a bottle. :(

You may want to check your math-- each bottle is 1000 units. 100 units per ml, each bottle has 10 ml. So you know where to get cheaper insulin, and it's going to last longer than you thought. See? It's getting better already!

[ozzi]

You are NOT over your head at all, and this is exactly the right place for you to be. Every person here understands the overwhelming feeling of hearing your dog has diabetes and then racing to try and get a handle on what to do. It's confusing, difficult to absorb, and in many ways a very helpless feeling. What I promise you is that in a very short time, ALL of those feelings will dissipate, and you will feel much better.

When Ozzi was diagnosed, he was over 600, and he responded very quickly to insulin. After the first injection, I could see immediate, positive changes in his behavior (less drinking, fewer trips to pee, etc.), so I want to reassure you that you will most likely see a quick improvement. It's the regulation that can take a while.

I cannot believe a glucose of 880!! WOW. Given that Brandy's sugar is so high and she weighs 59 pounds currently, I'm surprised her dose is only 12 units twice/day. Generally, the starting dose is about 1/4 unit/pound, which would be closer to 15 units twice/day. Ozzi weighed 65 pounds at the time of diagnosis and his sugar wasn't as high as Brandy's and he was started on 15 units of Humulin N twice/day, and now takes 25 units twice/day. Your vet is right, this is just a starting dose, and how she responds will determine where she ends up. The increases are done slowly to give her body a chance to respond to the insulin, to determine how the food/insulin balance works on her, and to avoid hypoglycemia (the sugar dropping too much, generally below 50).

With a BG of 880, she must have been running about 2-3+ ketones in her urine. Do you know what the value was? It would be a good idea to pick up some ketone sticks (over the counter at any pharmacy, and fairly cheap at WalMart) to at least monitor her ketones now while her sugar is up. With the insulin on board, she will definitely come down from when she was diagnosed, but you don't want her to continue spilling ketones and that's important to report to the vet if it continues. If she is anything other than negative, I would call the vet to ask about increasing a unit or two now, rather than waiting a week.

At the current dose of 12 units twice/day, the bottle of Humulin that you have will last about 6 weeks, however, I suspect that dose will be increased. Relion Novolin-N is an NPH insulin made exclusively for WalMart and Sam's Club. Humulin-N is also an NPH insulin (intermediate-acting). Both work very well and for most dogs, are interchangeable. The difference is that the Relion at WalMart is half the price of Humulin! If you are in the US, you do NOT need a prescription for insulin...it is over the counter. You do need a prescription for syringes, and WalMart sells Relion syringes, which are also half the cost of retail pharmacies and work great. I use them and am very happy with them.

A couple of things about injections that vets sometimes forget to mention: (1) when you take the insulin out of the refrigerator, roll it gently back and forth (about 10 times) to completely mix it. Don't shake it though! (2) after you draw it up in the syringe, warm it by putting it under your armpit or hold it horizontally in your mouth for 30 seconds or so. This will take the sting out of the injection so it is not painful. (3) Always inject with the bevel (the opening at the bottom of the needle which shines when you hold the needle tip to the light) in the UP position. Again this will make it fairly painless for Brandy.

You can cut your costs by half if you use Relion Novolin-N and Relion syringes. You can cut your costs by 100% by learning to test at home and reporting the results to your vet. There are several videos and resources here to help you learn, and I cannot encourage you enough to learn asap. I realize how much info is being thrown at you, but I don't want you to make the mistake of waiting six months to test (as I did) if you are willing to learn. It is cost-effective, and so much less stressful for the dog! I was scared to learn and avoided it, and now am a believer that testing is a necessary, not optional part of Ozzi's treatment.

Finally, post all your questions. There are so many awesome people here to help and support you. The people here have made a HUGE difference for me, and for Ozzi. You will be surprised in a month or so, when you realize what an expert you have become on canine diabetes!!!

My best wishes,
Kevin

[Patty]

Brandy's Mom,

Welcome! It is overwhelming at first to try to absorb it all but it does get easier.

Weight loss often comes with the onset of diabetes. When there's not enough insulin, glucose is unable to be used by the cells for nutrition and the body starts using its fat and muscle stores for fuel. As the blood sugar gradually comes down you should start to see her weight stabilize.

With an initial blood sugar of 880 and not receiving insulin until Tuesday, did they test her for ketones? Here's some information on ketones: http://diabetesindogs.wikia.com/wiki/Ketones

You can purchase Ketodiastix at your local pharmacy. They are urine strips that will measure the amount of glucose and ketones in the urine. Anything more than trace ketones is cause for concern and should be evaluated by a vet immediately. Just FYI, my local pharmacy has sold me the ketostix before and I didn't realize it until I'd left the store so be sure you have the Ketodiastix which measure bothe the glucose and ketones.

Humulin N is often a very good insulin for dogs, so I'm glad your vet started you out on this insulin. As the others mentioned, Novolin N is essentially the same insulin made by a different manufacturer and is sold cheaper under Walmart Relion Novolin N brand. You can ask your vet for a prescription for this as some pharmacies will ask for one even if the state doesn't require it.

You can also save a lot of money by learning to home test. It will give you peace of mind to know how her blood sugar is ranging throughout the day. With a dog Brandy's size the OneTouch Ultra2 is a good meter to look at. I have one similar to this an get my strips on ebay so there are other options for making testing affordable. Here's a link to some of the areas you can test: http://www.k9diabetes.com/bgtestvideos.html

Glad you found us. Again, welcome to you and Brandy,
Patty

[MadMadMom]

Hi, MadMadMom:

I'm still learning about all this myself, but I get the Type N Reli-On from Walmart for about $25.

Thank you, I will check on that!

[MadMadMom]

I use the Relion also, and I don't use prescription food (I feed a grainless kibble--chicken & potato based)

This is a great place to get your questions answered!

Will it be labled as grainless? Or what should I look for to know that it is grainless? Thank you

[MadMadMom]

You may want to check your math-- each bottle is 1000 units. 100 units per ml, each bottle has 10 ml. So you know where to get cheaper insulin, and it's going to last longer than you thought. See? It's getting better already!

Oh my goodness!!! I feel a huge weight lifted off of my chest. It does say 10ml and 100 units per ml, but the bottle looks so tiny. If I RE-figured this out right ...it is going to last 10 times longer than I thought? Oh Thank You. Thank You!!!!

[MadMadMom]

You are NOT over your head at all, and this is exactly the right place for you to be. Every person here understands the overwhelming feeling of hearing your dog has diabetes and then racing to try and get a handle on what to do. It's confusing, difficult to absorb, and in many ways a very helpless feeling. What I promise you is that in a very short time, ALL of those feelings will dissipate, and you will feel much better.

When Ozzi was diagnosed, he was over 600, and he responded very quickly to insulin. After the first injection, I could see immediate, positive changes in his behavior (less drinking, fewer trips to pee, etc.), so I want to reassure you that you will most likely see a quick improvement. It's the regulation that can take a while.
So it wont take until she is completely regulated to start to see and improvement? That is a relief. She seemed to have more energy when we picked her up, but I just chalked it up to her being in a strange place all day and happy to see us
I cannot believe a glucose of 880!! WOW. Given that Brandy's sugar is so high and she weighs 59 pounds currently, I'm surprised her dose is only 12 units twice/day. Generally, the starting dose is about 1/4 unit/pound, which would be closer to 15 units twice/day. Ozzi weighed 65 pounds at the time of diagnosis and his sugar wasn't as high as Brandy's and he was started on 15 units of Humulin N twice/day, and now takes 25 units twice/day. Your vet is right, this is just a starting dose, and how she responds will determine where she ends up. The increases are done slowly to give her body a chance to respond to the insulin, to determine how the food/insulin balance works on her, and to avoid hypoglycemia (the sugar dropping too much, generally below 50).My heart sank when I heard that number. She had a morning appointment and she ate before going there so I dont know if that would have an affect on it. It was the lab that they took last week at 64lbs. They called us with the results that afternoon, but we had to wait til today because they are closed on the weekend and Monday the vet was not in. He said he was starting her at a really low dose and that I he would increase it to get to the right one. I asked why he didnt start with a higher dose and he said it would kill her, its better to start low. All I know is I want to get her to a better place, where her food is actually giving her nutrients and she can gain some weight

With a BG of 880, she must have been running about 2-3+ ketones in her urine. Do you know what the value was? It would be a good idea to pick up some ketone sticks (over the counter at any pharmacy, and fairly cheap at WalMart) to at least monitor her ketones now while her sugar is up. With the insulin on board, she will definitely come down from when she was diagnosed, but you don't want her to continue spilling ketones and that's important to report to the vet if it continues. If she is anything other than negative, I would call the vet to ask about increasing a unit or two now, rather than waiting a week.Okay I will get some. I dont know what the value was. Im not sure what that is. They went over the results today and she stayed in the low 300s except the test 2 hours after given her first dose of insulin. She went to 6 hundred and something. I dont remember the exact number. When I read about it I thought it was supposed to be closer to the low 100s. I didnt ask the vet as I was a little overwhelmed taking everything in and learning how to give the shots. I will go down in the morning and get those before work. I have to read more about the ketones, because Im not quite sure what they do

At the current dose of 12 units twice/day, the bottle of Humulin that you have will last about 6 weeks, however, I suspect that dose will be increased. Relion Novolin-N is an NPH insulin made exclusively for WalMart and Sam's Club. Humulin-N is also an NPH insulin (intermediate-acting). Both work very well and for most dogs, are interchangeable. The difference is that the Relion at WalMart is half the price of Humulin! If you are in the US, you do NOT need a prescription for insulin...it is over the counter. You do need a prescription for syringes, and WalMart sells Relion syringes, which are also half the cost of retail pharmacies and work great. I use them and am very happy with them.I was very relieved to see that I messed up on my math. The bottle is so small, I still am in disbelief that that much could be in there. So are they pretty much duplicates? because it says not to change them off of it without getting regulated on it first. Is it something I should bring up with the vet...if it is slightly different. I dont want to take any chances or hurt her. We were scheduled for her next visit on Monday, then he said "could you make it in on Friday" so we will be dropping her off again then, I think they might up it then

A couple of things about injections that vets sometimes forget to mention: (1) when you take the insulin out of the refrigerator, roll it gently back and forth (about 10 times) to completely mix it. Don't shake it though! (2) after you draw it up in the syringe, warm it by putting it under your armpit or hold it horizontally in your mouth for 30 seconds or so. This will take the sting out of the injection so it is not painful. (3) Always inject with the bevel (the opening at the bottom of the needle which shines when you hold the needle tip to the light) in the UP position. Again this will make it fairly painless for Brandy.He showed us how to roll it but didnt say anything about warming it or the bevel. Thank you

You can cut your costs by half if you use Relion Novolin-N and Relion syringes. You can cut your costs by 100% by learning to test at home and reporting the results to your vet. There are several videos and resources here to help you learn, and I cannot encourage you enough to learn asap. I realize how much info is being thrown at you, but I don't want you to make the mistake of waiting six months to test (as I did) if you are willing to learn. It is cost-effective, and so much less stressful for the dog! I was scared to learn and avoided it, and now am a believer that testing is a necessary, not optional part of Ozzi's treatment.Do you mean testing to regulate them or just the monthly blood draw after she is regulated?

Finally, post all your questions. There are so many awesome people here to help and support you. The people here have made a HUGE difference for me, and for Ozzi. You will be surprised in a month or so, when you realize what an expert you have become on canine diabetes!!!

My best wishes,
Kevin

Thank you so much for all your info and help. I already feel better and feel more confident in helping Brandy with everyones advice

[k9diabetes]

Already some good news! :)

Definitely go for the Walmart brand. It is Novolin NPH but is packaged as a Walmart house brand called Relion N and it's about $22-25 a bottle.

I sure am glad to hear the insulin got started today... I worry about a dog going even two more days with blood sugar that high.

One way you can save a small fortune is to learn to test her blood sugar at home. Take a look here: www.k9diabetes.com/bgtestvideos.html (http://www.k9diabetes.com/bgtestvideos.html) to see various folks testing in different places. Brandy being a lab might well have an elbow callous, which is a great place to test, and the lip is another good alternative.

Once you learn to do it, you can do the curves your vet is doing at home for about $10 each.

Your vet may not be supportive of home blood glucose testing. Many aren't but more are coming around to it all the time. You can show them this study by UC Davis that shows that a OneTouch Ultra meter is a great meter to use testing on dogs:


ACVIM 2008 Abstract

Evaluation of Six Portable Blood Glucose Meters in Dogs.
T. Cohen, R. Nelson, P. Kass, E. Feldman
School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis

The purpose of this study was to evaluate six portable blood glucose meters (PBGMs) - AlphaTrak, OneTouch, Elite XL, AccuChek, Precision, Contour - for use in dogs. One hundred fifty-eight venous blood samples were asayed for glucose using all PBGMs in randomized order and by a reference hexokinase method. Results from the PBGMs and reference hexokinase method (HM) were compared.


HM blood glucose concentrations ranged from 41 to 639 mg/dl. There was excellent correlation between PBGMs and HM results (table). Results were consistently low for 4 PBGMs compared with HM results. High and low results were common with the AlphaTrak. The difference in results between PBGMs and HM increased as blood glucose concentrations increased. Difference in results between PBGM and HM were significantly (p<0.0001) less for the AlphaTrak and OneTouch and significantly (p<0.01) higher for the Contour compared with other PBGMs. Problems with correct identification of hypoglycemia (<70 mg/dl), normoglycemia (70-120 mg/dl), and hyperglycemia (>200 mg/dl) varied between PBGMs (table).


Percent Incorrect from Reference Range
AlphaTrak -- 18
OneTouch -- 21
EliteXL -- 45
AccuChek -- 45
Precision -- 49
Contour -- 73

Results of this study support use of the AlphaTrak and OneTouch glucose meters based on significantly closer results with HM.


Besides saving you a lot of money, you can learn way more about your dog's regulation by testing at home because you can spot test periodically and check any time you are concerned about the blood sugar being unusually low or unusually high.

It is the best tool I ever had with Chris.

If you haven't already, take some time to read up on diabetes on the main website for this forum: www.k9diabetes.com (http://www.k9diabetes.com).

It's always scary at first but we have all been there at some point.

Natalie

[MadMadMom]

Brandy's Mom,

Welcome! It is overwhelming at first to try to absorb it all but it does get easier.

Weight loss often comes with the onset of diabetes. When there's not enough insulin, glucose is unable to be used by the cells for nutrition and the body starts using its fat and muscle stores for fuel. As the blood sugar gradually comes down you should start to see her weight stabilize.

With an initial blood sugar of 880 and not receiving insulin until Tuesday, did they test her for ketones? Here's some information on ketones: http://diabetesindogs.wikia.com/wiki/Ketones

You can purchase Ketodiastix at your local pharmacy. They are urine strips that will measure the amount of glucose and ketones in the urine. Anything more than trace ketones is cause for concern and should be evaluated by a vet immediately. Just FYI, my local pharmacy has sold me the ketostix before and I didn't realize it until I'd left the store so be sure you have the Ketodiastix which measure bothe the glucose and ketones.

Humulin N is often a very good insulin for dogs, so I'm glad your vet started you out on this insulin. As the others mentioned, Novolin N is essentially the same insulin made by a different manufacturer and is sold cheaper under Walmart Relion Novolin N brand. You can ask your vet for a prescription for this as some pharmacies will ask for one even if the state doesn't require it.

You can also save a lot of money by learning to home test. It will give you peace of mind to know how her blood sugar is ranging throughout the day. With a dog Brandy's size the OneTouch Ultra2 is a good meter to look at. I have one similar to this an get my strips on ebay so there are other options for making testing affordable. Here's a link to some of the areas you can test: http://www.k9diabetes.com/bgtestvideos.html

Glad you found us. Again, welcome to you and Brandy,
Patty

I am going to get those strips tomorrow morning. Thank you for the video links. I am going to look into the OneTouch Ultra 2 also. Thank you again for all the explanations of stuff. I am in disbelief of how much this site helps and how much great info that everyone has and shares...Thank You!!!

[MadMadMom]

Already some good news! :)



I sure am glad to hear the insulin got started today... I worry about a dog going even two more days with blood sugar that high.

One way you can save a small fortune is to learn to test her blood sugar at home. Take a look here: www.k9diabetes.com/bgtestvideos.html (http://www.k9diabetes.com/bgtestvideos.html) to see various folks testing in different places. Brandy being a lab might well have an elbow callous, which is a great place to test, and the lip is another good alternative.

Natalie

Yes, it was very hard not doing anything for 3 days...that is what made it a long hard weekend. I felt helpless and knowing nothing could help her til the visit was disheartening. She does have a callous on her elbow. I am a little nervous about doing the testing myself, but it is something I am willing to learn. Just knowing the medicine will last 10 times longer than I thought is a relief. Thank you

[k9diabetes]

If you give the videos time to download, there is one of Killian tested on an elbow callous and one of Chris being tested on the lip.

Both videos are valuable as much for the fact that the dogs couldn't care less about having their blood sugar tested as they are for the instruction on how to do it! :D

Chris was tested at least three times a day every day because he got four injections a day - very unusual you will be happy to know!

Did the vet say anything about ketones?

I see you are off the beaten path a bit - do you go to the vet in Reno or have one closer?

We have a warm spot in our hearts for Reno because of the incredible dog park space they have there up on the hill. Of course where you are, you may not need a dog park! ;)

It all gets easier one day at a time.

Natalie

[MadMadMom]

If you give the videos time to download, there is one of Killian tested on an elbow callous and one of Chris being tested on the lip.

Both videos are valuable as much for the fact that the dogs couldn't care less about having their blood sugar tested as they are for the instruction on how to do it! :D

Chris was tested at least three times a day every day because he got four injections a day - very unusual you will be happy to know!

Did the vet say anything about ketones?

I see you are off the beaten path a bit - do you go to the vet in Reno or have one closer?

We have a warm spot in our hearts for Reno because of the incredible dog park space they have there up on the hill. Of course where you are, you may not need a dog park! ;)

It all gets easier one day at a time.

Natalie

I watched the one on the lip test this weekend, he did so good. I dont remember anything specific about ketones, but it was so much I could have just missed it. It was an overload of info that come as fast as possible and a crash course in how to give shots...kind of a blur looking back on it. I will be more prepared Friday with anymore questions that I have. I do believed I got more info here that I would ever from the vet, but people that are and have gone thought it personally...and am extremely grateful.

We have a vet in the North Valleys, so its not all the way in town. Unfortunately this is a new vet because when I called our vet in Lemmon Valley, the receptionist said that she (the vet) not longer takes care of large breed dogs, but she would talk to her after she got out of surgery since she had already taken care of her. We just decided to find another one, which might have been a good thing.

I think I know where you are talking about...the hiking trails on Peavine? We dont need a dog park where we are at....lots of open space...where Brandy and the boys are always on the go & exploring:)

Have a great night! Thank you again!
Amber

[MattiesDad]

Will it be labled as grainless? Or what should I look for to know that it is grainless? Thank you

If you do a search for "Grain free dog food", you'll come up with lots of choices. You'd probably want to make a gradual switch, so you don't upset Brandy's tummy. Make sure you monitor the glucose levels.

[Noodle]

Welcome to you & Brandy! :)

There is so much flying at you in the beginning that's it's easy to forget pieces of information and get things confused. But after you have had a few days of reading, it will all start to fall into place. Once Brandy is regulated, you'll all slip right into a routine and it won't feel like such a big deal.

I made the same mistake as you the first day, thinking there were only 100 units in the vial. Considering Noodle is now on 30+ units, twice a day - well that would have been a lot of monthly vials and he would've needed his own mini refrigerator to hold them all, lol. I was very relieved to find my math error. ;)

You'll save a ton of money if you learn how to test Brandy's BG at home and it will give you such piece of mind. Labs are so easy going (Noodle is a lab mix), so I'm betting she will handle the testing just fine. We use the lip method, so if you & Brandy run into any issues with the callous method, you might want to give the lip a try or two.

[CoolGram]

Hi Amber & Brandy - Welcome to this wonderful site. I'm pretty new to it myself and honestly don't know what I would have done without all the support I've gotten. There's so many wonderful people and much valuable information here. And a lot of the information you won't hear from the vet. We're still trying to get my mini-schnauzer, Gretel, regulated. She was diagnosed in mid-January. Things are improving but we're not quite where we want to be yet.

I really felt for you when I read your concerns about the costs of treatment, and in particular of the insulin. I initally made the same mistake you did when trying to calculate how long it would last. It was such a relief to find out in would last more than a week or two!! I know money can be an issue, but somehow we do it

Right now Gretel is on the Humulin NPH insulin, and I'm a little hesitant to change it until she's well regulated (hopefully soon!), but then I will be asking the vet about making the change to the WalMart brand. Anytime you can save money without any undesirable effects on our dear pets, why not?

Everyone's advice about home testing is good too. Admittedly I haven't begun that yet - a little nervous about it :o, but I think I'm slowly getting there, and I'm sure you will too.

Best of luck to both of you,
Carolyn & Gretel

[MadMadMom]

You'll save a ton of money if you learn how to test Brandy's BG at home and it will give you such piece of mind. Labs are so easy going (Noodle is a lab mix), so I'm betting she will handle the testing just fine. We use the lip method, so if you & Brandy run into any issues with the callous method, you might want to give the lip a try or two.

I am going to try it. I am a little nervous on that one. I dont think the vet will be too keen on it as it will keep me from using them. I think once I learn a little more, I will be more comfortabe with doing it. I think my biggest fear is not knowing and possibly chancing her life because of it. Brandy is so mellow that as long as there is not a loud noise or pop with it, she will sit there like nothing is happening. Thanks again

Amber

[MadMadMom]

Hi Amber & Brandy - Welcome to this wonderful site. I'm pretty new to it myself and honestly don't know what I would have done without all the support I've gotten. There's so many wonderful people and much valuable information here. And a lot of the information you won't hear from the vet. We're still trying to get my mini-schnauzer, Gretel, regulated. She was diagnosed in mid-January. Things are improving but we're not quite where we want to be yet.

I really felt for you when I read your concerns about the costs of treatment, and in particular of the insulin. I initally made the same mistake you did when trying to calculate how long it would last. It was such a relief to find out in would last more than a week or two!! I know money can be an issue, but somehow we do it

Right now Gretel is on the Humulin NPH insulin, and I'm a little hesitant to change it until she's well regulated (hopefully soon!), but then I will be asking the vet about making the change to the WalMart brand. Anytime you can save money without any undesirable effects on our dear pets, why not?

Everyone's advice about home testing is good too. Admittedly I haven't begun that yet - a little nervous about it :o, but I think I'm slowly getting there, and I'm sure you will too.

Best of luck to both of you,
Carolyn & Gretel

I am glad to know I am not the only one who made the measurement mistake. Gosh! I felt a little dumb miscalculating like that but the overwhelming relief and weight off my chest overtook that feeling right away:D I plan on doing the testing, and will get all the stuff I need, but will make sure that I am a lot more knowledgeable before I do. I will also keep Brandy on her Humulin N, especially now that I know now that it is less that I thought. I think that also with this, in time when I know more I will feel more comfortable with changing it. I am very greatful for all the info that I have received on here. It has made a huge difference!

[connieandgypsy]

Hi Amber and Brandy,
Welcome to you, you will get the hang of this in no time. I've only been doing this since end of January this year and apart from asking these guys lots of questions. everything else is part of daily life now for both myself and my dog gypsy.

just a quick question also, is brandy desexed? can make a big difference if she is intact now and you get her desexed. well it did in my case.

connie and gypsy:)

[MadMadMom]

Hi Amber and Brandy,
Welcome to you, you will get the hang of this in no time. I've only been doing this since end of January this year and apart from asking these guys lots of questions. everything else is part of daily life now for both myself and my dog gypsy.

just a quick question also, is brandy desexed? can make a big difference if she is intact now and you get her desexed. well it did in my case.

connie and gypsy:)

Hi,
Yes she is. I am not sure when she had it done, but we got her from the SPCA when she was 2 (estimated) and she was already fixed.

[connieandgypsy]

Good to hear..:)

[Terry4444]

Hello Everyone! I wanted to share my story with you. So far, so good...so please keep reading.

Three months ago, my husband was diagnosed with Diabetes. About a month ago, my 7yr old Yellow Labrador (Goldie) was diagnosed as well. I have always heard that pets can take on their owner's symptoms and now I see it first hand!

Goldie was acting sluggish, walking slow, droopy eyes, drinking a lot of water, urinating a lot (a couple of accidents in the house)...she is a smart girl and went on the tile vs. the carpet. The last symptom scared me the most as she was shaking/trembling as she was lying down breathing trying to sleep. I took her in to the vet to get a complete blood workup on her.

Well, her blood sugar number was 540, she had a hypothryoid, she was anemic and her liver numbers were off slightly. I was shocked since I spoil my dogs like they were my kids. (I also have two German Shepherds)

My vet (who is wonderful and owns a small practice) started Goldie on Vetsulin at 15 units/twice a day, prescribed Thyroxine, liver soft chews, and told me to get CoQ10 (for her heart) and Cinnamon pills (to help regulate her blood sugar), and sprinkle salt on her food to fix the anemic part. After a week, she was more alert and playful! Her numbers dropped to 460 so we increased her Vetsulin to 20 units/twice a day.

After the second week, her shaking completly stopped and her numbers were down to 375. Her eyes are wide open, she is bouncing while she is playing ball or frisbee and she acts like she did when she was 3yrs old! :)

So, I went back to the Vet last week to let him know that Vetsulin was being taken off the market. He was unaware but I brought him in printed info from the internet. He said that we should switch to Humilin N (Walmart's brand is cheaper and is the exact same stuff) and stay at the 20 units since the new syringe is smaller but the new medicine is 2.5 times stronger than Vetsulin. I was glad to know that I would be spending less money and that the medicine would last a lot longer!!!

She has been on Humilin N for a week now and is still doing great and has a lot of energy. We go back to the Vet at the middle of May to get re-tested.

My Vet told me something that I value...each dog is different. He doesn't completely go by numbers alone. He looks at the complete health of the dog. Even though Goldie was still in the 300's, her fur is healthier, her eyes look great, her shaking has stopped and her energy level is amazing. She no longer runs to the water bowl all the time and she only urinates outside three times a day. (no more accidents). I feed her Natural Balance wet and dry food and she loves it! When I have time, I use my crockpot and make her food myself: 3 cups water, 1 cup brown rice, 2 cut up sweet potatoes, salt, 4 chicken breasts, and fill the remainder with brocolli, spinach or kale. Cook on high for 5 hours then shred the chicken and stir together.

So far so good...I wish it were this easy to get my husband's diabetes under control!!! By the way, I have always had a terrible fear of needles...needless, to say, I had to get over that fear pretty quick!!!!!

[MadMadMom]

Hi all.

Well first off I want to thank everyone for all their help. I dont know what I would have done without this place.

Brandy has been going into the vet once a week and spends every thursday there from 7:30 to 5:30 to try to regulate her. She started off at 12 units and he increased it between 3-4 every week. Her original reading when we found out she had diabetes was 880. Yesterday they increaded it 5 units to 32. They also want her to come back in two weeks this time to see if sitting in there is stressing her out. She had okay numbers yesterday, just still all over the place. Her lowest in the mid 200s and once in the 400s. I have noticed a huge difference in the last two weeks. She is her old self, she is sooooo happy and has so much energy. I think she is getting used to it too because on Wednesday she decided to sit by the door, like she thought it was time to go to the vet but was a day off. On Thursday she sat by the door in the morning and wouldnt let anyone by without following them. That actually amazed me (I know off topic, but wanted to share) I love this vet. The people in the front are so nice and helpful and always explain everything, in detail so I am not left with any question. Brandy absolutely loves them. I told them about waiting at the door and they said she loves it up in the reception area, she just doesnt like the back lol. Shes my social butterfly!

Okay, back on topic. She will now go in, in two weeks for an immediate blood draw and then can go home. She will not have to stay there. Hopefully this works. Right now, a bottle of insulin will last her 14 days. I want to change her to the relyon one, but am unsure when to try. I think I am going to try and wait until she is regulated. Did anyone have problems changing from the humilin N to the relyon? Thank you again for everyones help. It is all sinking in and at first it felt like the end of the world, but now it feels like everything is going to be good. Thank you, thank you...the support, help and words of encouragement helped more than anyone will know. :D
Amber & Brandy

PS She is up to 66 lbs and steady!! Yea!

[Tikobird]

Hi MadMom - We switched Dozer from Humulin N to Novolin N (ReliOn) 1 week ago today without any incident whatsoever. I was quite happy to pay the $25 at Walmart instead of the $62 my original vet charged me!

I have joined the band wagon on this forum of home testing. Dozer spent 3 days at the vet when he was first diagnosed which I know for a fact stressed him out badly. When I got him home he not only had more profound weakness in his hind quarters, he literally slept for nearly 24 hours. I was so distraught I spent the night on the computer and found this forum which I am SOOOO thankful for. With the encouragement and support of the people here, I started home testing. Now if I think he is acting a little weird, I do a quick prick and can calm my fears knowing his sugar isn't bottoming out or raging out of control.

Good luck with Brandy - it is a scary road we start out on, but through education and this forum, our fears are soon drastically reduced. Having others to talk to that are dealing with the same situation is certainly the best therapy for us "doggie parents"!!

[k9diabetes]

I am concerned and hope I am confused... what I understood from your post was that her blood sugar was between 200 something and 400 something on 27 units of insulin yesterday so they raise it 5 units to 32.

She started off at 12 units and he increased it between 3-4 every week. Yesterday they increaded it 5 units to 32. She had okay numbers yesterday, just still all over the place. Her lowest in the mid 200s and once in the 400s.

Is that correct?

I hope not... a 5-unit increase in a dog with blood sugar going down to 200 could be a very very big overdose of insulin.

I almost never support increasing 3-4 units at a time unless the dose is becoming quite large, like 40-50 units.

But I think it's dangerous to do it when the blood sugar is down as low as 250.

When you start to close in on good numbers, it's essential to slow way down. I have known several dogs for whom the difference between low blood sugar and blood sugar in the 200s was half a unit of insulin in a 23-25 unit dose.

And you can't base an increase in insulin dose on the high number. You have to base it on the lowest blood sugar, which apparently was around 250. More insulin will drop the high numbers and the low numbers so you have to figure how much lower the lowest number is likely to go when you increase the insulin.

So to be honest, I feel a bit panicky about the safety of Brandy on that dose.

Please let me know if I'm way off base. If I've got this right, I think you will have to keep a very close eye on her, no exercise which could drop the blood sugar lower, and reduce the dose at the next meal to 28 units.

Sorry to be a pain but I really am worried.

Natalie

[MadMadMom]

No, that is right on. That is the dose. She started it last night. What should I look for

[MadMadMom]

No, that is right on. That is the dose. She started it last night.

[k9diabetes]

Hi Amber,

I gave you the link via email but thought it wouldn't hurt to repeat it here for others.

Hypoglycemia: http://www.caninediabetes.org/pdorg/hypoglycemia.htm

Much of this information can be found at the Links page of the main website: www.k9diabetes.com/complinks.html (http://www.k9diabetes.com/complinks.html)

I'm glad she seems to have gotten past the low point on the curve. I would be WAY more comfortable with a 1-unit increase tonight.

There are ways, too, that you can try to reduce the difference between the highest and lowest blood sugar. The less difference there is, the tighter her regulation can be.

Natalie

[k9diabetes]

At most 2 units. As far as I'm concerned, 5 is just too many.

[ozzi]

Amber,
I also worry about that increase. I had Ozzi on 24 units Humulin-N for a while, did a BG and his low number was 188. I increased him ONE unit to 25 units twice/day, and he had a hypoglycemic event (his BG dropped to 34), so I think you would be wise to tread carefully and err on the side of caution, increasing at most one unit, or maybe even a half unit. It would be better to go slower and not risk the sugar going too low.
Kevin

[CarolW]

Amber - I completely agree with Natalie and with Kevin (ozzi).

I'm guessing that it hasn't been clear to you that it takes several days before a raise in insulin dose really settles in. Also, in a situation like yours, given the numbers, that large increases are actively dangerous. In effect, the dog isn't accustomed to managing such large amounts of insulin, so the hormones that kick in when the glucose levels are dropping too sharply or steeply are likely to do just that, if the dose is raised so much, so suddenly.

Then you face, first, likely hypoglycemic events; second, rebound, which takes many days to settle and bring back under control.

I'd suggest talking this over with your vet, and even maybe pointing your vet to this forum.

But first, and for now, I'd cut Brandy's dose back to no more than one unit increase from what you were giving before - and watch Brandy very closely.

I gather you haven't yet learned how to test Brandy's glucose levels at home. It's not hard to learn, though it can take a little time. If you'd like to learn, please say so, and you'll get all kinds of help here on the forum.

My fingers are crossed for you and Brandy. Kumbi's paws are crossed. Both our eyes are crossed. Please report back!

Fri, 7 May 2010 18:10:59 (PDT)

[k9diabetes]

I emailed Amber back and forth this afternoon. She's going to do 29 units tonight and buy a OneTouch Ultra meter and give testing a try.

Natalie

[CarolW]

Oh, Natalie - I'm so glad you were in that close touch with Amber!

That OneTouch Ultra2 is SO easy to use (even though you still have to code to match the test strips, but it seems nowadays, with the new Blue Strips, they're all the same number - 25 - which means you end up not having to code, after all!).

Amber, fifty million cheers for you, for keeping after this, and working so hard at it. Brandy will surely benefit greatly - thanks to you!

I'm looking forward to happy reports from you!

Fri, 7 May 2010 19:30:53 (PDT)

[MadMadMom]

This is Jacob. My mom posted on here before and she told me to go here and ask questions, That someone on here might be able to help answer my questions.

We got up today and Brandy was seing just fine. We took her out to the lake all day. When we were done, I noticed that she was tripping over Stuff and rocks. We got home and Brandy was running along the sides of stuff and feeling aroud with her nose. I put my finger up to her eye and she didn't notice until I touched her. My mom said her eyes might of got sun burnt. Can anyone help Please and Thank You.

[claire81]

Hi Jacob,

Is Brady diabetic?

How long has she been diabetic?

Some dogs, if they have high blood sugar, can develop issues with their eye sight.

Weather Brady is diabetic or not, you should really have her checked by a vet, because there are several different things that can affect the eyes, and it's best to know exactly what the problem is so that you can treat it properly :)

[MadMadMom]

Yes shes diabetic and shes been on medicine for about three months. Brandy is 8 years old. We have known about her cataratts. We got her up this mornig and she didn't even know where she was going. She was walking into the wrong rooms and running into stuff. What would make her blind in one day?

[Marlu]

:(Our Pepper (7 yr old diabetic schnauzer) was diagnosed in March.....within a 2 week period in June... Our vet saw the cataracs around then ...he was completely blind. He is doing well around the house, with an occasional "crash" when he moves too fast. He is very hesitant in the yard...has trouble finding the porch steps....unless our shepherd is out there too. What a sad, sad thing to watch. This happy, active little dog is so confused and afraid when he gets himself lost in the only home he has known since we brought him here at 8 weeks. World's not fair, even to pets...Marlu

[Joan]

Actually they can go blind practically overnight, or so it seems. I think that their eyesight leaves more slowly than that, but they adapt and do so well with just shadows and glimmers, that you would never know they were impaired. Then it is finally completely gone, and that is when most people will notice their dog cant see, esp when in strange unkown territory.

In many dogs, surgery can restore their vision, but it is expensive. I am sure there are several that will chime in later, that have had the surgery done on their dogs.

[Patty]

I wonder if as Joan said Brandy was adapting well in the house with reduced vision, seeing mainly shadows and glimmers and yesterday her sight left completely.

UV exposure can cause temporary vision loss, such as when you've been out in the bright sun and go back inside. But I would think it would have returned by now. Here's an exerpt on vision and UV rays:

"Possible eye damage can result from high doses of UV light, particularly to the cornea which is a good absorber of UV light. High doses of UV light can causes a temporary clouding of the cornea, called 'snow-blindness', and chronic doses has been tenitively linked to the formation of cataracts. Higher incidences of cataracts are found at high elevations,Tibet and Bolivia; and higher incidences are seen at lower latitudes(approaching the equator)." http://www.nas.nasa.gov/About/Education/Ozone/radiation.html

If you have a veterianary opthalmology specialist near you, it might be worth having her eyes checked out. They could tell you whether it is cataract related or not and whether she would be a candidate for surgery.

Patty

[MadMadMom]

Hello , I'm Jacob (I'm 16) and my dog Brandy (10 years old) has been doing really good with her diabetes for almost 2 years now. But the last couple of days shes been really high on her blood sugar levels and its getting over 600 all day and night. It is only getting worse. We have been giving her a little less food. We have been testing her about every hour and the insulin doesn't lower it at all. The only thing that will lower her is running and she doesn't run for long before she starts walking slow. Also running her only lower it only 20-50 points. The inselin dosen't lower her blood sugar and shes been drinking a lot of water. I know thats because the high blood sugar. About an hour after her shot, her blood sugar is still over 600. The blood meter only goes to 600 and after that it just says "HI" and it keeps reading "HI". We have already tried the batteries and a new tester and they read from the 500s to "HI". The vet is closed so we can't take her anywhere and the only thing we could do right now is run and walk her. Im afraid shes going to die.

Can some body tell me what is going on and why the inselin is not helping?

Also can some one tell me why her blood sugar is so high?

She has not gotten into anything and we have not been giving her to much food either.
Thank you for any and all help.
Jacob

[Diane Roehm]

Hello Jacob, welcome. I am new at this but there are a lot of good people that will help you. I will be following what happens. hang in there

[Judi]

Jacob I'm not one of the pros either but can you go to Walmart and get some test sticks to test for ketones? (they are in the diabetic section near the pharmacy). If she has ketones in her urine it can be very serious.

If she has an infection of any sort her insulin could go up. Your vet doesn't have any on call #? Is there an emergency vet in your town?

Sounds like you have been taking good care of Brandy. Sorry I don't know more. Judi

[MadMadMom]

Thank you two for the help.:) I will have my dad go too Walmart and get that.

What are keytones?

[MadMadMom]

I looked up what keytones are and Brandy has been getting enough carbs. I mix wet and dry food but why would her blood sugar stay up so high and not go down at all.

[jesse girl]

yes it can be scary to see your baby running so high

has this just happened all of a sudden ? if so has she found something to eat that she is not suppose to eat

another thing the insulin is not working as well you may need a new bottle

how is jacob feeling yes the numbers tell you a story but how brandy is feeling tells a very important story also . if she is feeling ok and not sick he should be ok to get to your vet tomorrow to have some tests .

so keep an eye on brandy today see how he feels your a very caring person to take such responsibility for your friend at such a young age

[MadMadMom]

We just got her on a brand new inselin bottle, so its not the inselin.

Shes mainly been just laying around the house. She didn't want to eat this morning but I got her to.

She hasn't got into anything and we have been keeping a good eye on her.

[jesse girl]

1 would take brandy to the vet first thing in the morning

she may have an infection so she needs to be checked

you have done all you can new bottle she hasnt got into anything.

hows her breathing ? normal

[MadMadMom]

Her breathing seems normal, maybe a little faster than normal. Yesterday she would not let you touch her stomach but it might have been gas.

[jesse girl]

what you want to look for is real stress on the body labored breathing ect . if anything changes dont hold back to take her to an emergency vet do you have any in your area if so it might not be a bad idea to give them a call remember we are not vets

can you touch brandys stomach now or is it still tender?

[MadMadMom]

I just touched it and it isn't tender anymore.

[jesse girl]

thats good

keep a watchful eye and make her comfortable

i would not exercise to much i understand it can lower the numbers but usually in these situations its is short lived

let her have good access to water and able to go out side and do her business

is she urinating and or drinking allot how does her stools look ?

[MadMadMom]

Shes drinking and urinateing a lot.

What are stools?

[Judi]

just another thought too. Another forum member, Barb, found out her dog was eating bird seed that had dropped from the feeder. Got anything like that in the back yard? Judi

[farrwf]

Shes drinking and urinateing a lot.

What are stools?

Turds ......

[farrwf]

No expert here but, if there's been no change in how much and what she's eating or the insulin dosage, ... most likely suspects are an infection or something causing stress.

[farrwf]

Shes drinking and urinateing a lot.

Classic symptoms of high blood glucose levels.

[MadMadMom]

If she has an infection is that common for this to happen with blood sugar? I will get her into the vet first thing in the morning. I didnt know weather I should give her more inselin or not. Thank you to everyone for all your help.

[jesse girl]

If she has an infection is that common for this to happen with blood sugar? I will get her into the vet first thing in the morning. I didnt know weather I should give her more inselin or not. Thank you to everyone for all your help.

it could. something has happened to cause the insulin not to work as well in such a short amount of time

sometimes we have to be detectives we know are dogs better than anyone else the more information you have for the vet the better there are know wrong questions so ask away

its a good idea to wright everything down that you can think of and bring it with you

please update us after brandy has had her visit

healing thoughts for your baby from me and jesse

[MaryLea]

Jacob, you are compassionate beyond your years! :) Brandy is fortunate to have you around. Glad you got online for support.

The tender tummy could be as simple as she was full (of urine and/or feces) or it could mean something is going on causing the tenderness (infection, swollen organ, etc.). You will need a vet to run some tests to tell what is going on. I agree with Jessie Girl that something has happened to make the insulin not as effective. Could she have eaten something outside (from bird seed to a small animal)?

You should probably feed her and give insulin as usual--presuming she will eat. Most of us here give 1/3 to 1/2 of the insulin dose even when our dog doesn't eat. With high BGs, she needs the insulin to help her.

Please keep in touch and ask any questions you may have. The suggestion to write everything down to discuss with the vet is an excellent idea.

The best to you and Brandy!

Mary ;)

[Shellie]

Hi Jacob! I'm sorry to hear that Brandy isn't feeling well! It sure sucks when they aren't a-ok!

Don't worry about the high blood sugar hurting her right away. It's not like the problems with low blood sugar being so dangerous. BUT...it still has to be checked since there is definitely something not so great going on with her.

Ketones are what the body makes when it isn't getting enough insulin (or the insulin isn't working) and can build up in the blood. That is one of the things we are worried about.

I'm very glad you'll be going to the vet...I'm sure Brandy will be happy when they figure out what's up, too! That list of questions is a def great idea...I know I always forget something when I go in.

Good luck tomorrow and lots of hugs to you and Brandy!

[MadMadMom]

Thank you for everyones help. We called my Grandma last night and told he what was going on. I told her what everyone on this message board said. She said to check her for infection abbsess tooth, that her old dog had that happen one time and when we checked her her one side of her mouth is swollen on the inside really bad. Not her tooth, but the inside of her cheek and we noticed that she has a tiny dot on the outside. Shes not eating good but her blood sugar got to 443 last night but was up to 555 before bed. She is going to the vet this morning. You guys told me the answer and now I feel better. My mom said if it is just the infection she can get better and it isnt her diabetes and she should be good with antibotics. Thank you everyone. I love this message board, you have all helped me so much.

[jesse girl]

great detective work

healing thoughts for a quick recovery for brandy

[SandyL]

Good Job!!!
Sooo hope the vet visit goes well and it's only an infection....Please keep us posted!

Sandy

[MaryLea]

Great job, Jacob! It really is good to have some virtual friends who can help direct your thoughts when things go wacky. We've all been there, and so we keep in touch via this board. :)

When BGs go crazy--esp. extremely high and stay there--you always need to watch for the reason, and you kept looking until you found it! :cool: (FYI: When Ruffles became terminally ill, her BGs were fine; everything else went crazy. That isn't always the case, but it happens. There were other signs/symptoms that something was wrong.)

Glad we could be here for you. ;)

Mary

[nibbles-mommy]

Hey Jacob,

How's Brandy feeling?