Need Help in regulating

[patseyj]

Hi, I am new to this forum. I have a mini schnauzer, Abbey. She's 7 yrs old and was diagnoised a diabetic the 1st week of March. Her glucose level was 290. The technician showed me on a syringe in the vet office how much insulin (NPH) to give her. On the syringe she went to the 2 mark. We had a curve done on the 11th and it was outragous. Abbey ate and I gave her the NPH to the 2 mark on my syringe. When she went in that morning her level was 73. Then all morning and into the afternoon it constantly rose to alittle over 600 and then slowly fell until when I picked her up at 4:30pm it was around 388. The vet told me to bring my syringe in that I was using. Well, It's a 100 ml? that goes along with the NPH insulin. The vet told me that they do not use that type syringe but a 40 ml? Anyway, instead of giving Abbey 2 units I was dosing her at 20 units!! Way too much. So, the vet said to not give her the shot that evening, but to start her on 1 unit the next morning. I started Abbey on the 1 unit as instructed (which looked like nothing). Abbey was back to square one drinking and peeing like crazy. I called the vet and she told me to maintain her at that level 2 x a day and we would do a curve on the 26th. After a few crazy days and sleepless nights. On the 15th I checked her level and at 5:25pm and it read "HI". Retook and "HI" again. Retook her level at 6:05 and was 517. At 7:43 it was 317. I started to panic. I decided to start her on 2 units on the 16th. She ate and received her 1 unit at 6am. At 1010am her level was 215. Checked again before dinner and shot at 5:25PM was 233. On 3/18 took before eating at 5:50am was 242. Checked again before dinner 4:30pm was 243. Fell sorry about poking Abbey so much and skipped the 20th testing. Tested again 3/21 before eating at 5:40am Yeah level was 196. Gave her the 2units at 6am and retested her before dinner 4:30pm was 164. Tested 7:45pm 263. YEAH!! Finally Abbey acted like she felt really good. WAS A GREAT DAY!. Continuing on the 2units 2x a day. Results for the next 3 days. I feed at 6am and then give the insulin. 3/22 3am 248; 5:55am 189; 11:20am 162; 2:20pm 255. Good day. Stopped at 2:20 b/c poked Abbey's lip so much. Figured she was doing well. 3/23 5:20am 323; 8:50am 288; 11:50am 190; 5:50pm 324; 9pm 322. Not too bad. This morning 3/24 5:55am 300; 7:10am 314; 8:30am 190.
This is a crazy roller coaster. This morning prior to giving her the 2 units, she wasn't panting or breathing fast. Mind you her level was 300. Then she eats and I give her the 2 units and about 25 minutes later she's breathing fast and panting. Now at 190 she is still breathing fast and panting. I'm not understanding any of this. Should she be breathing fast and panting like this after the shots? She's also extremely uncomfortable getting up and down lying in different places, etc. Please help me!!

[Diane Roehm]

Re: Need Help in regulating

Welcome to the forum. You are doing really good testing her and all though I am no expert at this I would say you are doing great. Seems like when they are first diagnosed they are all over the place and it takes time to get them used to the new feeding, schedule, insulin etc. Some of those numbers on the 2 units actually sound pretty good.

My Maggie was very uncomfortable and it is really hard to watch. You want a quick fix and there just aren't any. I have been going at this for 3 months now and she is starting to feel better. It seems they are a little uncomfortable with all the changes in the blood sugar but it will get better. You will see. Just hang in there. There a good people on this site that can help.

Diane

[patseyj]

Re: Need Help in regulating

Thanks Diane. I needed to hear something positive! I was really so discouraged this morning. Since the 8:30 reading, I tested at 9:25 which was 176 and 11:25 going up alittle to 184. If she would only stay in the 200 or below range, I'd be happy. She's still breathing hard. I don't understand that part of all this. I just hope that me going to 2 units on my own was the right decision. I have noticed that if I give her the 2 units in the evening, her glucose level goes up. Wondering if she needs less insulin at night. It makes me feel so bad for Abbey. I think when she woke up this morning she was actually feeling good and then I give her the insulin and start sticking her in the lip, just makes her feel so bad! I just keep telling myself, this is all for the good and knowing her levels is better than not knowing! I am just hoping so much that this coming Monday the Vet will be able to help me out with her curve and get her regulated.

[Diane Roehm]

Re: Need Help in regulating

It really does take time. I know exactly how you feel. Natalie says this all the time. Dogs can handle the high numbers better than people so don't get to freaked out. The numbers you are posting are quite good for a newly diagnosed dog. Try to relax and just keep things steady for now. Same food, same amount, same time, same insulin. Then do a curve and try not to get to freaked out by the fluctuation in the numbers.

It will be ok. Just takes time.

[JayneN]

Re: Need Help in regulating

{{hugs}} to you and Abbey

[jim maceri]

Re: Need Help in regulating

Welcome PatseyJ, Take a deep breath and continue to read threads and information here. This is a wonderful place for support and suggestions....

You are WAY ahead of the game by testing at home. The numbers you posted 176/184 are quite nice and they are well within a "healthy" range for diabetic dogs. This is a disease of "patience"....it takes time and as suggested, dogs can handle the high numbers for a period of time. Post the curve when you get it along with the details of her diet, feeding schedule, exercise regiment ect...

Now relax a bit....you will get there and you are doing very well this early in the game. The experts will be chiming in I'm sure with support and advice. BTW, my dog's curve has changed many times. Currently his BG goes up after shot and food and then starts to come down that is a mountain curve. If the numbers go down and create a "bowl" shape it is a bowl curve.

[jjefferjo]

Re: Need Help in regulating

Welcome to you and take many deep breaths you are on your way to helping Abbey (having a run on Abbys and Abbeys )
You are already ahead of the game and patience will bring the rest.
You maybe on your way to earning a patience hat
Welcome.
Jj

[Shellie]

Re: Need Help in regulating

Hi! Welcome to you and your Abbey! Glad you found us here since I know we'll help all we can on this new road you're on!

It's wonderful that you are testing! That is one of the biggest hurdles that new folks need to work on if possible. Gives you SO much information! Have you done a full curve yet? That's where you test every two hours starting with the first fasting bg and finish with a last test two hours after the second fasting bg. Spans about 14 hours. I think you probably should try one since it seems the numbers you are getting are very random. No way to tell what is happening between shots.

The panting and pacing is quite normal when their blood sugar is either very high or it's rapidly changing. With the numbers you are seeing, it's odd that she's having these symptoms which is why I would suggest a full curve. I'm thinking she may be rising or going too low and it's getting missed.

Schnauzers are a tough breed with this disease from what I understand. Natalie has mentioned many a time that they often require a bit more insulin and a bit more stringent monitoring than a lot of other dogs. BUT...our mantra..every dog is different!

One thing to remember...even tho Abbey looks uncomfortable, she's probably ok if her numbers are going back and forth and that is what is causing her symptoms. Dogs really do tolerate the higher numbers better than humans so they can be high longer and not suffer nearly the same effects. Patience really is the key here....sad to say since we all want our dogs to better faster and right now! lol

I would monitor the symptoms as well...and if they change radically...or really concern you, definitely call your vet. We can only help with advice and can't replace the vet when it comes to the more difficult stuff.

So take a deep breath...look into doing a curve (since you test, you can do it yourself) and take another deep breath! We'll all help as much as we can in any way we can! Welcome again and take care!

[jesse girl]

Re: Need Help in regulating

I am also confused as you on the syringes are you using u-40 or u-100

u-40 should not be used with nph i guess you could use a conversion method but that would make little sense anyway maybe i misunderstood your post

[SandyL]

Re: Need Help in regulating

Just want to add my welcome and to let you know we've all been wher you are today! . Take a deep breath, and take comfort that you're not alone!!

In regards to your syringes..... Walmart and Walgreen sells the U 30 syringes. Much easier to read doseages and they have half unit markings that come in handy for fine tuning doses!

Sandy

[CarolW]

Re: Need Help in regulating

Welcome to you and take many deep breaths you are on your way to helping Abbey (having a run on Abbys and Abbeys )
You are already ahead of the game and patience will bring the rest.
You maybe on your way to earning a patience hat
Welcome.
Jj

PatseyJ, you have already earned a Patience Hat. So here's your Patience Hat:

http://www.coherentdog.org/tidberries6.php

Now, Abbey is also doing well - feeling a bit better giving you some nice numbers (and I hope the panting will reduce some in time; it seems to be a fairly common response as the body adjusts, but others can tell you more about that than I can): SHE has earned a Patient's Hat. Kumbi wpent all day today making Abbey HER Patient's Hat.

http://www.coherentdog.org/tidberries5.php

Keep up the good work. I'm really very thrilled with you for deciding on your own to give 2 units.

Signing off, with a Big, Fat Welcome to this truly magnificent forum on canine diabetes. (Back later.)

Sat, 24 Mar 2012 20:04:30 (PDT)

[Patty]

Re: Need Help in regulating

Hi Patsey and welcome to you and Abbey!

I have a few questions after reading through your post if you don't mind.

The original insulin syringes you were using, did the vet give them to you?

Can you look at one of your current syringes? Does it say U-40 or U-100 on it? How many units of insulin does it hold?

NPH should be used with U-100 syringes. But I wouldn't want to change anything until we know exactly what it is you are using to measure with right now.

Anyway, instead of giving Abbey 2 units I was dosing her at 20 units!!

This doesn't make sense to me. Even syringes that hold 100 units are marked in 2 unit increments. You might take a look at these links and see if it helps identify your syringes.
http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=990
http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2477

- How much does Abbey currently weight?
- What type of food is she eating? It that given 12 hours apart with insulin? It looks like from your numbers you may be feeding an hour earlier at night?
- Does she get any snacks during the day?
- What type of meter are you using?

Mar 15th - 1u using syringes from vet
5:25pm - "HI". Retook and "HI" again.
6:05pm - 517
7:43pm - 317

Mar 16th I decided to start her on 2 units
6am - She ate and received her 1 unit (I think you meant 2u here)
1010am - 215
5:25PM - 233 fasting

Mar 18
5:50am - 242 fasting
4:30pm - 243 fasting

Mar 21
5:40am - 196 fasting
4:30pm - 164 fasting
7:45pm 263

Mar 22
3am - 248
5:55am - 189
11:20am - 162
2:20pm - 255

Mar 23
5:20am - 323
8:50am - 288
11:50am - 190
5:50pm - 324
9pm - 322

Mar 24
5:55am - 300
7:10am - 314
8:30am - 190

Hopefully answering some of the questions above will help us better help you. Glad to have you here!
Patty

[patseyj]

Re: Need Help in regulating

Thank you all for all your support and help. I was so discouraged when I wrote the post. Abbey had been feeling really bad with the panting, and levels all over the place, I was getting panicky and crying while writing the post, which is why it seemed kind of erratic. Anyway, the next day was like night and day. She stopped the heavy panting, but, acted still kinda listless. Anyway, Patty, YOU really enlightened me on the syringe!! I feel like such a dope!! Yes, the syringe is in 2 unit increments!! DAH!!!...I cannot believe how I was dosing Abbey! For some ungodly reason, when the technician showed me how to dose on the clinics syringe, I took it as it was at the 20 line and 2 lines up for (2 1/2 units, BUT was actually 24 units) 2 X a day...FIRST MISTAKE!! It's no wonder that I didn't kill her!!! OH MY GOD!! When I learned on the 12th when Abbey went in for her first curve that I was WAY OVER DOSING, HOWEVER, the tech told me (I took my syringe in with me) that each line was 1 unit!!! WRONG!! Patty, you are so right!! The dang lines are in "2 UNIT" increments!! THEREFORE, I am not giving Abbey 2 units now 2 times a day BUT actually 4 units (2 lines) 2 x a day which equals 8 units!! HELLO LIGHTBULB ON TONIGHT..I am so glad that Patty's post mentioned that syringe and directed me to pictures. I'm using the U-100 BD ultra-fine short needle. OK...even though I've screwed up sooo much, Abbey appears to be getting used to the insulin and doing ALOT better.

Abbey went into the Vet for her 1st curve on the 12th..it started out at 70 at 7:30 am and proceeded to go into the 600's and stayed there up in the 600's most of the day!! Guess, because of the 24 units (ya think!!)

To all your questions Patty:
Abbey weights 14 lbs. I am feeding her 1/3 cup Hills W/D and 1/2 can of Merrick Low Glycemic canned food at each feeding. Snacks: 1-2 a day Blue Health Bar baked w/chicken liver. The glucometer is True2Go...Love it, very little blood to get the reading!

I took it upon myself to do a curve on Sunday 25th. She was going in on Monday for her official curve and I wanted to see if they were close.

3/25/12 First feeding 6am

Time 0555 level 300 gave 2 units (which was really 4 @ 6:15)
0710 314
0830 190
0925 176
1105 184
1225 196
2 pm 231
5:30pm 166 Last reading I took at 6pm fed and after gave 1 unit
again actually was 2 units

I was SOOOO HAPPY with those readings. She acted and played like she used to.

Yesterday I took her into the vet at 7:30am after feeding and giving her shot.
Her curve was High all day...do not have the actual numbers but they were all in the 400's! However, she still was acting perky and not sick or panting excessively.

I haven't told the vet yet that I've been dosing her 4 units 2 times day...but..I'm ok with that because it seems to be working. I also feel so much more content as I questioned the vet about her eyes and she said they looked good for her age (7 years). I was so concerned about cateracts & going blind.

I do have a question. What is a normal level she should be at? If 150 is a high normal, should she be at or below that #? Do you get to the ideal # by adding insulin a little at a time? and if so, what would be a safe timeframe to figure this out?

Again, thank you ALL. You are a blessing in that newbies like me take comfort in that I have this forum to go to if I can't get the answers I need from the Vet.

PS...I asked the Vet about Abbey panting so heavy and if that was normal for a newly diagnosed dog on insulin and if her body was just trying to adjust to the insulin...she said no, she has not experienced that. Well, I tend to think you guys are right and that she is just adjusting to her new regime. It's amazing how much better she is acting today. But, I know we have a LONG ROAD to travel!!

I do have to tell you though, I have another mini named Max. He's 12 and we have battled with him having auto immune problems. About 8 months ago we weaned him off phenobarbital (for mild seizures since age 1) and Knock on wood, he hasn't had any...soooo...after all those years of thousands of dollars of testing to figure out his problems (which we never did find out), we thought we were home free with No Health Issues with the dogs!!! Never Ever did I think that we would ever have diabetes, because I was so ever careful to research and find a mini breeder that had bred for over 30 years and guaranteed the health. SO, you never can tell...whether you get a casual breeder (MAX) or show breeder (Abbey)...you can have issues...but, I wouldn't trade either for the world...they are both my doggie babies that we LOVE to death!!

OK, I'm done rattling on...Thanks for listening and reading.

[SandyL]

Re: Need Help in regulating

Lol don't feel too bad about the screw up between 2 and 4 unit , I DID THE SAME THING AT THE BEGINNING!!! The tech also told me they were 1 unit increments..... Thank you very much... But I was giving Tiggy 8 units each time instead of 4 Dealing with the smaller dogs, those u100 syringes are a pain in the butt !

150 BG is a good number, not necessarily a HIGH normal. I personally don't like Tiggy to go much below 150 so that we have some wiggle room to prevent lows from occurring. Tiggy generally has a fasting about 225-250 and usually never goes below 125 on a normal day. The numbers you had for her curve look really good... I wouldn't pay too much attention to the ones from the vet since they can run crazy high when they are stressed or in pain. In fact, since you're testing yourself , you really can forgo the vets testing and save yourself some money. The numbers you get in the comfort of Abby's home are much truer than at the vets usually.

Looks like you're on the right tract

Sandy

[jim maceri]

Re: Need Help in regulating

So good to hear your feeling better and Abbey too!!! yea. A quick comment on what a "goal" should be for her BG numbers. I am a person who was number crazy, always trying to keep my guy in a range of 100-150 and boy that was not only tricky but downright dangerous because of some of the early dips he had. For me, I took the advice of many on the forum and shoot for having most of the day under 200....if I can get him between 130-180 that is perfect for me but if he runs all the way to 250 its really no big deal. If you exercise your dog, they are eating, happy, healthy, playing, not drinking excessively, and for all intents and purposes are normal, that is what you are looking for.

For me that range is about 150-250 and I am thrilled with those kinds of numbers. Remember, a high reading is just that moment in time. I've found that exercise can really affect my guys BG so if he gets a bit high we simply take a walk for a mile or so and he will drop 40-100 points. I know this because of pre-walk / post-walk tests.

In any event, dropping below 100 got really scary and I found myself in a panic much more (as we should be) with lower numbers rather than higher ones. Eyes MAY be affected with prolonged readings above 250 and I say may because each dog tolerates higher levels differently. Some very wise people told me a range to shoot for would be 150-250 with no big spikes up or down so that is what I work towards and my fella is happy, happy, happy. and so am I.

Great Job!!!