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zeusmomma
02-03-2009, 11:06 AM
Hello Everyone,

I am new to this forum, but I have heard there are lots of great information that can be received here.

I have a 7.5 year old male yellow lab named Zeus that has just been diagnoised with diabeties. Zeus also had pancreatitis about two years ago. My first thoughts after he was diagnoised was how on earth will I give him two insulin shots a day. Well, I have adjusted better then I thought he is such a good boy about getting his daily shots. Right now Zeus is eating Royal Canin L/F formula along with some boiled chicken. He takes Huminlin N 15cc twice daily. He is going to his first glucose curve on Friday. The vet has me testing his urine 3x a day.

I would like to eventually test his blood and home. Could anyone share the thoughts and advice with me. What type of meter is best and easy to use?

Any advice is appreciated.

Zeusmomma

We Hope
02-03-2009, 01:00 PM
Welcome to you and Zeus! :)

OK, folks--this is your chance to talk about the meter you use, how you use it and why you prefer it, so c'mon! :D

Kathy

k9diabetes
02-03-2009, 01:09 PM
Welcome to you and Zeus!! :)

We had a larger dog, 62 pounds, and used the OneTouch Ultra - it seems to work very well will medium to larger dogs.

Freestyles work really well for smaller dogs but wouldn't be my first choice for a labrador.

I can't really explain this difference - just know that consistently over the years there has been a difference in the accuracy of these brands of meters based on the dog's size.

We tested on the lip... you can see me testing our angel diabetic Chris at www.k9diabetes.com/bgtestvideos.html (http://www.k9diabetes.com/bgtestvideos.html) along with Killian being tested on an elbow callous, another really great test site for big dogs. With the lip you can usually use a lancing device (we loved the Softclix by Accuchek). With the elbow callous, you usually need to do the lancing by hand rather than with a clicker.

The videos are large files so give them time to load up.

Although it seems like it would be the opposite, the lip has very few nerve endings and is a great place to test. If you watch Chris' video, you will see how he doesn't mind a bit. We tested him a minimum of three times a day as he was on four injections a day.

Home blood glucose testing is the most wonderful and reassuring tool so I hope you and Zeus are able to do it. It made all of Chris' success possible.

Hope to see a picture of your boy too,

Natalie

Maggie's Mom
02-03-2009, 01:32 PM
I prefer the One Touch Ultra. I'm new to dog diabetes, but used that meter with my diabetic cat. I bought the mini One Touch Ultra for my dog and it's easier for my arthritic hands to juggle!

eyelostit
02-03-2009, 01:54 PM
Hi Zeus's Mom Welcome to the board.:)

I have started using the Alpha Trac pet meter, which takes less blood and I test on the tail, about 1 inch down from the top, I have to shave the area, about 1 inch, my dog has lots of hair.

Sometimes there were variations for me when I compared the Relion (Walmart) meter to pet meters, the lower the BG this meter would compare to the Alpha Trak, but when I got highs there was a difference.

Best thing is to take your meter to the vet with you and have it compared with the actual blood glucose test they did, I find when I am in the range of say 125-150 and using the Ketodiastix for urine I can feel the reading of the meter is correct or pretty close when the urine stays in the green area.

BaileyBear
02-03-2009, 09:25 PM
Welcome to you & Zeus. :)

My dog Bailey is a 7 year old lab mix and was just diagnosed in January. I've been using a Walgreen's "True Track" meter which also came with a lancing device and 10 strips. Additional strips run about $50 for 100 (2 containers in one box). We haven't done a lab value comparison with the same blood sample yet, but it was within 10 points the day he had his first curve at the vet. I'll let you know how it compares when we do a comparison with the same blood sample.

Originally my vet only showed me how to test on the ear and Bailey clearly hated it and it was very difficult to do. After watching the videos on this site, I tried the lip technique and BINGO - SO easy. He lays right down when he sees me put the strip in the meter and it doesn't bother him at all. I've even tested him while he was sleeping and he didn't bat an eye, lol.

The meter seems very easy to me and it requires only a tiny bead of blood. Just be sure you dry the area a bit and get a good grip on the part you flip up so you don't lose a good bead and have to start over. Once in a while my dog sneezes, lol. You'll learn really fast what areas form a quick bead and you'll be through the whole process in seconds.

Good luck and welcome again. :)

Fishslayer
02-03-2009, 10:00 PM
Welcome to you & Zeus!

I use the One Touch Ultra II & it is very easy.

I was a total newbie when I started fostering a diabetic Cattle Dog & the folks here have guided me every step of the way.

I also use the lip method per the video. Lucy doesn't mind at all because she knows that after the test she is going to get her meal!;)

Rick

peggy0
02-04-2009, 04:45 AM
Hi Zues and mom

I have an alpha trak. i took it to the vet and his reading was 10 points higher :) I find it easy to use and forbes doesn't mind at all now! I test on the callous on his elbows . This board will be a tremendous help to you.

zeusmomma
02-04-2009, 04:24 PM
Thanks, for everyone's respones it was truly a help. Now I just need to purchase a meter and give it a try. Now, I just have a few more questions.

I had Zeus at the vet today they have not done his glucose curve yet since he was just released from the hospital on Saturday, but I have been testing his urnie 3x daily and going by his readings they up his insulin from 15 units to 18 units. How long does it usually take to regulate?

Thanks to all

Zeusmomma

We Hope
02-04-2009, 04:41 PM
I wish I could tell you the answer was X number of days or weeks, but the time to regulate depends on the dog. Some of the people here have had their dogs regulate very easily and quickly, while others have had to work at this for longer periods of time.

Do you have some corn syrup or pancake syrup in the house and did the vet tell you how to use it in the event Zeus gets some low blood glucose while the two of you are working at regulation?

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Hypoglycemia

You're doing a fine job with testing Zeus' urine; the one thing, though, that urine strips can't tell you is when a dog's blood glucose is going too low. All you will see is a "negative" for glucose on the test strip; testing blood for glucose, as you want to start doing, will let you know by the reading you if Zeus gets too low.

There are signs of lows at the link and we have a thread about the individual signs we've seen with our dogs right here.

http://k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=151&highlight=blood+sugar+signs

Again, I wish I had a more exact answer to your question about getting regulated, but it varies.

HTH! :)

Kathy

eyelostit
02-04-2009, 08:08 PM
Did the vet tell you what Zeus BG was before they increased his insulin to the 18 units? You start the 18 units today right?

Take care, Dolly:)

zeusmomma
02-05-2009, 08:59 PM
Thanks, We Hope I guess I just need to be patient and stay consistant with his insulin and feeding schedule. I do have some corn syrup at home (Karo) in case of a low blood sugar. Thanks, for the website links they are very helpful. As for the urine strips Zeus has been showing a high reading of 2000 the strips seem to be driving me a little crazy because I am not too sure what he should be reading. The vet is not to concerned since he just started his regimens. His curve and now be moved to Wednesday of next week. Can anyone tell me what to expect from the curve? So far Zeus has been eating well and acting like his normal crazy ball chasing furbaby.

Thanks for all the help

k9diabetes
02-05-2009, 09:51 PM
How much does Zeus weigh?

With such high urine tests, are you using ketodiastix to test for ketones?

Sounds like his blood sugar is still quite high. I'll be anxious to see how the curve comes out. If you look at Maggie's thread, Maggie's blood sugar has been dropping daily even though the insulin dose stayed the same so I'm sure the vet wants Zeus to stay at this dose for 5-7 days and then do the curve.

But I would check for ketones as if there is anything more than trace it is an emergency.

Natalie

Ricksma
02-06-2009, 05:03 AM
Just wanted to welcome you and Zeus to the board, and tell you that we are here for you if you should need some help. Listen to Natalie and Kathy...they are the best. Keep an eye on the ketones....that's extremely important until you can get Zeus' bg numbers into a more normal range. Sending good thoughts your way.

Teresa and Ricky

Cara's Mom
02-06-2009, 03:10 PM
Welcome to you and Zeus!!!
This is indeed the best place to be :). Here you will get all your questions answered and than some!!
You asked about meters: I use an One Touch Ultra II, but when it's very important or for curves I go back to my AlphTrak, which is a meter for animals (the testing strips for are rather expensive).
It's probably all still confusing for you, but believe me, with Kathy and Natalie's help, you'll be a pro at it in no time.

Best wishes :)

zeusmomma
02-06-2009, 08:16 PM
Natalie,

Zeus weighs around 72lbs. His ketones have been negative so far. I have called my vet on the glucose levels and he is not to concerned since his behavior and eating habits are doing extremely well. The vet thinks he will definitely need more insulin once the curve is done on Wednesday.


Cara's Mom do you do the curves yourself or do they need to be done at the vet's. Is the One Touch meter for humans? This all sounds so confusing to me.


Dawn

We Hope
02-06-2009, 08:48 PM
Dawn,

One Touch meters are made for people.

http://www.lifescan.com/

The AlphaTrak meter Cara's Mom talked about is made for animals.

For now, I would buy a human meter. There are many good deals on them--some give you a free meter for the asking or for a coupon or you can get a meter free with the purchase of X amount of testing strips. The AlphaTrak meter and the strips are quite expensive. I'd possibly think about that after you get started testing Zeus' bg's and get comfortable with the "how tos" of doing that.

Sometimes when you're learning how to do blood glucose testing, you mess up a lot of strips with your learning efforts--the human meter test strips are cheaper to "learn" on than the ones which go in the AlphaTrak. ;)

You can either have a curve done at the vet, which you'll be taking Zeus for on Wednesday, or you can do it yourself at home and report the results to your vet, depending on whether he/she is open to your doing ones at home and accepting your results.

After you get comfortable with blood testing, you could do them at home.

When you start testing blood, you'll still need to have some urine testing strips because there's only one meter that tests blood for ketones, and that's Abbott's Precision Xtra. You buy one set of strips for testing for glucose and a different one for testing for ketones. The ketone blood test strips for the Precision Xtra are very expensive.

http://www.walgreens.com/store/product.jsp?CATID=100133&id=prod2572481

Here's Walgreen's price for a package of 10 strips--$42.99

I agree with your vet that Zeus is going to need more insulin based on what you've been seeing on the urine test strips.

HTH!

Kathy

peggy0
02-07-2009, 04:29 AM
Hi dawn,

my forbin weighs 78 pounds and he is currently at 18.5 2x a day :)

rhodesian46
02-07-2009, 04:53 AM
Welcome!!!.I know this is scary When Pebbles was alive I freaked out man times. I kept my sanity because of Natalie and Kathy. They are great and helpful too!!
Question? Did your vet increase 3 units? To me that is a big increase.You are going to want the unit of insulin that works best for your. I used the One Touch Ulrta 2 meter Got blood daily out of Pebbles callous on her elbow She never flinched. My meter was 30 points lower than the vets lab I would suggest comparing your meter( when u get one)I would test her before she ate and mid day. I did curves every weekend and e mailed this info to the vet We were a team and that helped Pebbles tremendously.

Cara's Mom
02-07-2009, 07:13 AM
Cara's Mom do you do the curves yourself or do they need to be done at the vet's. Dawn

I had to do the curves myself. Cara would freak out completely when I brought her to the vet and left her there! They could never get a proper reading. So with me it was not a matter of "wanting" to do curves.....I had to, for everybody's sanity (Cara's included).

zeusmomma
02-07-2009, 08:06 AM
Thanks guys for all the help...I guess we will just wait until Wednesday to see what happens. I think I may go out and purchase the meter before than so I have it we I go to the vet. The thought of testing his blood is very scary. I saw the video on testing in the lip. What do you guys prefer? What seems to be the easiest and the less painful way?

Thanks again for all the wonderful answers to my never ending questions.

Dawn

zeusmomma
02-07-2009, 08:28 AM
What do you guys think of Precision Xtra meter from Walgreens?

Cara's Mom
02-07-2009, 08:47 AM
Be sure to check out the pharmacies...they often give you free meter when you buy box of 100 test strips! Or check out Internet for coupons on meters or rebates!

peggy0
02-07-2009, 10:23 AM
I test on forbins elbow callous. Not all dogs have them, usually larger dogs. he doesn't mind at all.

eyelostit
02-07-2009, 01:25 PM
I use the tail, about 1 inch down from top, a small dog would be just a bit down the tail, if you go too low on the tail you cannot get blood, but I do have to shave an inch area with Niki and all her hair.:)

k9diabetes
02-08-2009, 10:47 AM
I've never used the Precision Xtra... I seem to recall a few people over the years who have used it but cannot remember what their results were like.

If you can get the meter cheap, you can see how you like it and opt for another if you don't. That's how I wound up with five different meters at one point! ;)

Natalie

k9diabetes
02-08-2009, 10:49 AM
Is it the one that also checks ketones?

http://www.abbottdiabetescare.com/adc_dotcom/url/content/en_US/20.10.30:30/general_content/General_Content_0000078.htm

If so, it might be fairly expensive to use. It's the cost of the strips that are the real expense over the long haul.

We Hope
02-08-2009, 11:20 AM
The last time I priced the glucose test strips they were priced similarly to AccuChek Advantage. What's tough to absorb is the price of the ketone test strips--pack of 10 for over $40.

The good thing about the ketone strips is that they are individually packaged so you can open one at a time, as needed.

Read some rave reviews of them from some Moms of small kids with diabetes, as one said, "You can't get a 3 year old to pee on command so you can test urine." :D

I'd say shop till you drop (cyber-wise) for prices on the ketone strips. ;)

Kathy

zeusmomma
02-09-2009, 04:34 PM
Kathy,

Can any type of strips be used with any kind of meters? Does the strips need to be the same brand of meter that I am buying. I think I am leaning towards the One Touch Ultra. Looks pretty easy to use and by some of the reviews that have been posted sounds kind of painless.

Dawn

k9diabetes
02-09-2009, 07:08 PM
You have to purchase the strip designed specifically for the meter you're using. In the case of OneTouch Ultra, the same type of strips works for several different OneTouch meters - the OneTouch, OneTouch Ultra 2, and I think the Ultra Mini (not sure about this one) use the same type of strip.

We bought OneTouch strips from www.hocks.com (http://www.hocks.com) - cheaper than purchasing them locally by about a third.

I loved our OneTouch meter! :)

Natalie

Fishslayer
02-09-2009, 09:58 PM
The last time I priced the glucose test strips they were priced similarly to AccuChek Advantage. What's tough to absorb is the price of the ketone test strips--pack of 10 for over $40.


Kathy

YIKES!:eek:

I get kinda steamed when I waste one of the regular strips.

I'd go semi-tropo if I dipped a $4 strip & the blood didn't suck up the tube...:mad:


Rick

eyelostit
02-10-2009, 11:11 PM
I'm befuddled I thought a ketone test strip was for urine, is this something different, I don't think I paid that much for the Keto Diastix.;)

Fishslayer
02-11-2009, 10:05 AM
I'm befuddled I thought a ketone test strip was for urine, is this something different, I don't think I paid that much for the Keto Diastix.;)

It's strips for a meter that tests Ketones in the blood. At $4 a pop I think I'll stick with the Diastix, thanks.:)


http://www.abbottdiabetescare.com/adc_dotcom/url/content/en_US/20.10.30:30/general_content/General_Content_0000078.htm


Rick

We Hope
02-11-2009, 10:05 AM
Dolly,

The Precision Xtra meter is the only one on the market which can test blood for ketones.

http://k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6323&highlight=ketones#post6323

And here you see the price of 10 blood ketone test strips at Walgreen's. :eek:

Kathy

BestBuddy
02-11-2009, 11:36 AM
I was packing my meter up and just discovered it can also test for ketones. Its an older version of the Medisense Optium (made by Abbott) which I paid about $40 about 4 years ago. The ketones strips are much more reasonable here about $20 for 10 so I think that is only about $1.20 usd. I wonder what the postage would be to send that sort of thing.

Jenny

zeusmomma
02-12-2009, 06:09 AM
Hello Everyone,

Well, Zeus had his first glucose curve done yesterday his glucoses were high. He is now bumped up to 23 units twice a day of Humulin N. He seems to be doing well and still eating great. We go for another curve in 10 days. He does so well at the vets.

These were his readings; 9:15 am 420, 11:15 am 308, 1 pm 371, 3pm 438, 5pm 390.

I have been seeing so discharge coming from his eyes the last couple of days is this a side effect from insulin or could it be a different problem?

The vet did not seem to concerned.

Thanks, have a wonderful day.

Dawn

We Hope
02-12-2009, 06:26 AM
Dawn,

It generally isn't an insulin side effect. When Lucky was having the watery, irritated eyes from the insulin, it was because he was intolerant of NPH type insulin and both of its preservatives, as this all differs from Lente type insulin. It doesn't seem like this is a problem for Zeus.

You are seeing some response from Zeus to the insulin. What I'd wish for is to have another curve done a bit sooner than 10 days if Zeus is still in the higher number zone after this increase "settles in". It takes about 2-5 days for that to happen.

Kathy

zeusmomma
02-12-2009, 01:05 PM
Thanks, Kathy,

I just scheduled a curve for next Wednesday instead of waiting till the 10th day. Thanks, so much for all of your advice it has been a tremendous help.

We Hope
02-12-2009, 03:25 PM
Dawn,

It will be a lot better for Zeus to have that curve done a little earlier because if an insulin increase is needed, it can be easily and safely done on Wednesday. What you want to do is to try to move him along to getting regulated in a careful and safe manner, but also as soon as possible. ;)

Kathy

eyelostit
02-12-2009, 08:34 PM
Dolly,

The Precision Xtra meter is the only one on the market which can test blood for ketones.

http://k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6323&highlight=ketones#post6323

And here you see the price of 10 blood ketone test strips at Walgreen's. :eek:

Kathy

As we go along, I learn something new every day.;)

k9diabetes
02-12-2009, 09:27 PM
Is the discharge gray or yellow-green?

A gray discharge can be a blocked tear duct or dry eye. Yellow-green means it's infected.

Our nondiabetic Jack had some goop built up the first month we had him and one of the eyes got infected. It hasn't come back since we treated it so not sure what caused it but we did need an antibiotic drop for the infection.

Congrats on the curve! Though Zeus still has a way to go, he's heading in the right direction, the insulin's working... looks good! :)

Natalie

zeusmomma
02-20-2009, 06:32 AM
Hello to Everyone,

Well, Zeus went to his second curve yesterday. I thought it would be better news but yes they increased his insulin again. I am patiently waiting for him to get regulated. He was on 23 units now he is taking 27 units twice a day. It seems that this is a lot of insulin to me but the vet said for a dog his size it really isnt at all. Zeus weighs 76.7 lbs. His glucose numbers were still high. We go for another curve in 7-10 days. The vet suggested that I schedule an appointment for 10 days to give his body a chance to get adjusted to the new dose.

I am wondering if the insulin is not working well for him. He is on Humilin N which I think is a short acting insulin. How would I know if he is insulin resistant?

Here is Zeus's numbers from yesterday. He is still eating great, wanting to play and acting normal. So I guess I should not worry to much or should I?

9am 433,11am 362, 1pm 374, 3pm 370, 5pm 365.

Dawn

We Hope
02-20-2009, 07:24 AM
Hi Dawn,

First let's look back at the results of the last curve--you can see Zeus has made progress:

Hello Everyone,

Well, Zeus had his first glucose curve done yesterday his glucoses were high. He is now bumped up to 23 units twice a day of Humulin N. He seems to be doing well and still eating great. We go for another curve in 10 days. He does so well at the vets.

These were his readings; 9:15 am 420, 11:15 am 308, 1 pm 371, 3pm 438, 5pm 390.

I have been seeing so discharge coming from his eyes the last couple of days is this a side effect from insulin or could it be a different problem?

The vet did not seem to concerned.

Thanks, have a wonderful day.

Dawn

He's no longer going into the 400's, and even though they are still high, we are seeing them flatten out now. If we graphed out the readings you just posted, we would see a fairly straight line from them. If we did the same with the readings from the last curve, you would see the peaks and valleys this one had.

You bet, you want to go lower, but a step toward doing that is to get the numbers to even or flatten out, as Zeus' have done from the last curve to this current one. Because Zeus is still higher than he's meant to be, he does need the insulin increase your vet prescribed. What we all hope to see in 7-10 days is that Zeus has been able to keep his numbers flat, but that they are in a lower range than the 300's.

NPH insulin is an intermediate-acting insulin, just like Lente and all of the combination NPH/R insulins.

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Intermediate-acting

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/petdiabetes/images/b/ba/NPHtap.gif

This is a time activity profile graph of NPH insulin--compare it to what the short-acting R insulin's looks like:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/petdiabetes/images/9/98/Rtap.gif

I don't believe you have to worry that Zeus is resistant to the NPH insulin:

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Insulin_resistance

"The Axiom Labs article defines autoimmune insulin resistance as requiring a dose > (greater than) 2.2 iu/kg--more than 2.2 units per 2.2lb of body weight at a single dose. Animal Medicine Center of New York defines it as pronounced hyperglycemia throughout the day when insulin dosages are greater than 1.5 iu/kg per shot."

http://web.archive.org/web/20071123135159/http://www.axiomvetlab.com/EF+4-2+UC.html

Axiom Labs--the Difficult Diabetic

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7660542?dopt=Abstract

Diagnosis and management of insulin resistance in dogs and cats with diabetes mellitus.

Having hit more than 2.2 units per kilogram of body weight twice with Lucky, both on human and beef insulins, I can tell you from personal experience that the pattern of his numbers were a lot different than those for Zeus.

Lucky was living in the 500-600 and up zone. When the human or beef insulin began working, you would see a small "dip" in his blood glucose readings. Not long after that, they would return to their previously high levels. When we first spotted this, we believed it was a duration issue; this is why we tried the beef insulin. After seeing him do the same thing with the beef insulin as with the human insulin, we realized he had immune-mediated resistance. His body was destroying the insulin that wasn't just like his own before it could do anything about lowering his blood glucose. Pork insulin is identical to canine insulin; when we went to pork, we found that he accepted it because of this.

There's no set rule of thumb as to how long it takes to get a dog regulated--it varies according to the dog we're talking about. Zeus IS making some good strides toward getting there. None of them get there as quickly as WE'D like, though, so just keep up the good work! :)

Kathy

k9diabetes
02-20-2009, 01:03 PM
Hi Dawn,

At 77 pounds, it wouldn't be unusual for him to need 39 units of insulin to regulate and possibly even more. There is definitely a correlation between weight and insulin dose. Lots of variation in how much is needed per pound but the average is 1/4 to 1/2 unit per pound.

Judy's Bud, who just passed away, was a 24-25 pound terrier who needed 21 units of NPH per injection! But he was beautifully regulated on that amount. The last few days she was worried because his blood sugar had risen to 250 and that was unusual for him!

As someone once said, there's no prize for giving the least amount of insulin! (well, there might be a financial bonus...)

So you give however much they need.

I'm actually glad to hear that the vet isn't going to wait more than 10 days to reassess this new dose. Sounds like s/he is also working hard to get Zeus there as quickly as possible but also being careful not to overshoot the right dose.

Did his eyes clear up?

Infections will raise BG.

Natalie

zeusmomma
02-21-2009, 04:10 PM
Hi,

Ok so Zeus's insulin was increased to 27u on Thursday. Yesterday was his first full day on the new dose. I unfortunately did not get a chance to test his urine because of an event that tied me up the whole day and into the night. Trying to get my fifteen year old son to test his urine was not such and easy task. So today I have tested his urine and came up with two negative readings in a row with the glucose (his ketones were neg). I immediately called the vet as she suggested. Since it is a weekend I spoke with the emergency vet who suggested two situtions.

1. Feed him at his usual time, give him the 27 units and retest in the morning if still neg drop him down to 24 units.

2. Give him the 24 units tonight and test his urine if still neg call her back.

I am now in a panick is his blood sugar to low? I have been told that it is better to have a higher bg than a lower one. Zeus is still acting fine does'nt seem to be showing any signs of a low blood sugar.

Any help or advice would be great.

Thanks,
Dawn

k9diabetes
02-21-2009, 07:20 PM
Hi Dawn,

I'm sorry... just got your message so I'm sure it's probably too late for me to offer any advice tonight.

I would have cut his insulin 1 unit and see what happened from that.

Since he was acting fine, I'm not too worried about it, though it would be best if you could be around to monitor him. I can't tell you how many times a new diabetic's mom has wished fervently for a negative urine test and then freaked out when they got one! :)

So...

I would have cut one unit and checked his urine.

If a very small decrease in dosage of 1 unit put glucose back into his urine, you could be reasonably certain that his blood sugar was hovering around the 180 threshold for it to spill over and show up in the urine so most likely the 27 units was not too much.

If a very small decrease in dosage of 1 unit turned up still more negative urine tests, then you could be reasonably certain that his blood glucose was more like in the mid to low 100s (perhaps lower but you can't say much more than that) and I would have reduced tomorrow morning's dose by 1 unit further and see what you get.

Does that make sense?

With tiny decreases when you're around to monitor him, you can get a sense of where the "magic point" is where glucose shows up in his urine again.

Hope to hear from you tonight and see how you are doing.

You've got syrup, right?

Natalie

zeusmomma
02-22-2009, 05:35 AM
Hi Natalie,

I cut the insulin to 24 units as per the vet last night. This morning I checked his urine before giving him his insulin and still a neg reading. Called the emengency doctor again was told to stay at the 24 units and watch his sypmtons. So far Zeus is still eating well and acting fine. This is a bit scary and nerve racking. His dr that has been taken care of him since this all started we be in tomorow morning hopefully this will get it self together.

One questions I did have I am nearly near the end of insulin maybe about 4 or 5 more shot left. I have read that sometimes insulin can lose its strength when it is coming to the end. Is this true? Could this be maybe affecting the low bg?

Thanks so much for you quick response.

Dawn

We Hope
02-22-2009, 05:50 AM
Dawn,

When insulin gets to the lower ends of the vial, it does start to lose potency. That would mean you'd be seeing higher than usual readings, not lower ones. Getting higher than normal readings is often a sign that you need a new vial of insulin. Even if the insulin is new, there are times when you can get a bad one.

The other day Zeus got a 4 units per dose insulin increase--it might be that the increase was a bit much for him.

When you start a vial of insulin, it can also happen that you may see lower than expected numbers initially. They aren't anything that would cause a problem, but they sometimes can be lower than your usual readings. This straightens itself out after the vial isn't so "new" any more.

I don't think there's too much to worry about with the 24 units as Zeus' previous dose before the 4 unit per dose increase was 23 and all was well except for his higher than desired bg's.

Glad you'll be able to talk with Zeus' vet tomorrow!

Kathy

janspack
02-22-2009, 06:12 AM
Dawn,

When insulin gets to the lower ends of the vial, it does start to lose potency. That would mean you'd be seeing higher than usual readings, not lower ones. Getting higher than normal readings is often a sign that you need a new vial of insulin. Even if the insulin is new, there are times when you can get a bad one.

Kathy

I'm wondering if this is what was going on with Dazzle last week. After my vet questioned the way I was keeping the insulin and how I was giving the injection, I suddenly wondered if I did have a "dud" bottle. Yesterday, I opened a new one and lo & behold Dazzle's BG for the last two days have been sooooo much better. I'm just about to update on her thread what the figures are today but suffice it to say, I'm really happy today!:D

zeusmomma
02-24-2009, 12:50 PM
Hey There Everyone,

I know that I am so new to diabeties but, I am so confused and wondering right now....Zeus was running a negative glucose since Saturaday so the vet lower his dose from the 27 to the 24 units. Now, with the 24 units he was still running a neg glucose. I spoke with the vet again today and she lowered it to the 23 units that was the amount he was on before when he had the high numbers. Has anyone had this happen to them before? Does this mean he may be regulated with this amount?

I need to check in with her in the morning again to see if there is any change. I think it may be time for my to get my guts up and give it a shot again with the meter. Can anyone tell me how often they do the curves at home? Do you report your results to the vet for adjusting the insulin. Are normal ranges 60-120 for dogs?

Not sure what to do?:(

Dawn

We Hope
02-24-2009, 01:12 PM
Hi Dawn,

What it means when you see a negative urine glucose test result is that Zeus has stayed under 180. This is the renal threshold figure. When you go above 180 and stay above it for a while, the glucose starts spilling into the urine; this is how you're able to pick it up in a urine test.

What you see when you do a urine glucose test is the same results you would have seen two or more hours before if you had been testing blood for glucose.

Testing blood for glucose tells you the amount of glucose in the system at present; urine testing tells you what it was a while ago. Testing blood instead of urine can tell you if Zeus is in a good bg range or if he might be running low; the urine strips can just tell you when you get a negative, that he's below 180.

We needed to regulate Lucky 3 times due to changing insulins. Each time, we found that he would "drop back" each time. When we were on the way up with the insulin increases, we would be at that particular number of units and he'd still not be where we wanted him. With the smaller dogs, you work in terms of increasing by half units, so it would be a half unit increase at a time while we were doing this.

We'd do the "last" increase and then we would find Lucky was running lower than he should be, so we'd decrease the dose by a half unit for each shot. That would become his "set" or maintenance dose because he was very stable on it. On the way "up" that dose of insulin wasn't enough--when he got to regulation, it was right. He did this whether the insulin was U 100 strength or U 40 strength. Zeus might be reacting the same way.

What are normal bg's for non-diabetic dogs?

http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/nv.html

GLUCOSE 67 - 125 mg/dL

values somewhere in these ranges.

The frequency of doing curves depends on the person and the dog. Some vets are open to having clients do them at home and accept the results, and others don't--depends on the vet here.

Let's see what everyone else says they're doing in the way of curves! :)

Kathy

k9diabetes
02-24-2009, 02:35 PM
There can be insulin resistance that builds up just from having such high blood glucose for a sustained period of time and eventually after enough days with enough insulin to bring the blood sugar down you "break through" that resistance and less insulin is actually needed thereafter. This may be what's happening with Zeus.

Until you start home testing :p, I would do as the vet is doing and drop the dose in small increments, maybe half a unit at a time, until just a trace pof glucose reappears in the urine and then go up half a unit to the last dose that gave you all negative urine tests. And then learn to home test blood sugar! :)

Normal for a dog would be 80-120. The aim for diabetic dogs is to keep the BG between 100 and 150, which is not always possible. Next best is 100-180, which keeps them from spilling glucose into the urine.

Once we started testing, we did all of Chris' curves, originally reporting them to the vet. We were having to do them often as we were trying to figure out what was up with his weird insulin use and sure didn't want to pay vet prices for them or have him spend so much time at the vet.

Then over the years, we tested before three of Chris' four meals and injections a day and any time we had a concern about his blood sugar level, plus occasional curves - no set schedule... in our case it was often because we were changing foods or insulins.

Eventually, in Chris' case, we took over Chris' insulin management entirely. That's not for everybody, of course, and we did it only after an entire year of monitoring Chris' blood glucose at home with spot checks and curves and a lot of study of how food and insulin interact and what causes problems with regulation. But Chris' last vet, who he had for something like a year and a half... we never discussed diabetes or insulin doses. He knew I handled that and he didn't need to. I kept all of the information in Excel and charted his curves whenever I did one and saved them as records of his insulin use over time.


I know that I am so new to diabeties but, I am so confused and wondering right now....Zeus was running a negative glucose since Saturaday so the vet lower his dose from the 27 to the 24 units. Now, with the 24 units he was still running a neg glucose. I spoke with the vet again today and she lowered it to the 23 units that was the amount he was on before when he had the high numbers. Has anyone had this happen to them before? Does this mean he may be regulated with this amount?

I need to check in with her in the morning again to see if there is any change. I think it may be time for my to get my guts up and give it a shot again with the meter. Can anyone tell me how often they do the curves at home? Do you report your results to the vet for adjusting the insulin. Are normal ranges 60-120 for dogs?

Not sure what to do?:(

Dawn

zeusmomma
02-25-2009, 05:35 PM
Checking in today for some more advice. OK...so Zeus's bg was up again today when I dipped his urine. We were at the 2000 level with the 23 units. So I thought that it was time for me to be a brave soul and try the bg blood testing again. YEAH for me. I DID IT. I still was very nervous and wasted about five or so strips but it felt a little easier then the first shot. I think I can do this... I tested Zeus on the elbow. I tried the lip again but he doesnt really seem to care for that area too much and will not lay still long enough. I am not to sure if I like the lancing pen that came with my meter the setting needed to be set to 8 to actually produce the blood droplet. Can I use a different brand or do I need to use the brand like the meter. Also, while reading the manual it stated that the meter also test for ketones. In order to test for the ketones am I required to use different test stripes? Now I just need to get a rountine set down on testing times. I tested him around 3:30 pm and he had a reading of 196. Still trying to learn the peaks and when the best times would be to test him.

My vet would like him to stay on the 23 units for another day or two to see how he does. I just wanted to thank alll of you for your support and encouraging words. I don't think I would of had the courage to try the testing again without the help of this forum.

Thanks to all
Dawn:)

Cara's Mom
02-25-2009, 05:55 PM
Hi Dawn! Congratulations!!!!! You did it!! Nice reading!
Do not know anything about the meter you are using, so no help from me there! But you can use any lancing pen you like!! And make sure that the lancet you're using is not "fine" but about 25 gauge, that gives a better drop!

Keep up the good job:)

zeusmomma
02-25-2009, 06:33 PM
Hi Cara's Mom,

Do you clean the area before testing? I tested on the elbow but did not clean just made sure it was dry. One more question how do you compare the home meter that you are using the vets readings. How do I know if my meter is off? I read a posts that stated that there home meter was about 30 points lower then the labs.


Dawn

Cara's Mom
02-25-2009, 06:43 PM
I test the lip and just use a piece of paper towel to more or less dry it off. You do the elbow, if you wash that and don't rinse and dry it off good, you might not get a proper reading. On top of that, you want to do it quick, before Zeus decides he does not like what you're doing. So I think just wiping will do.

HTH :)

We Hope
02-25-2009, 06:50 PM
Checking in today for some more advice. OK...so Zeus's bg was up again today when I dipped his urine. We were at the 2000 level with the 23 units. So I thought that it was time for me to be a brave soul and try the bg blood testing again. YEAH for me. I DID IT. I still was very nervous and wasted about five or so strips but it felt a little easier then the first shot. I think I can do this... I tested Zeus on the elbow. I tried the lip again but he doesnt really seem to care for that area too much and will not lay still long enough. I am not to sure if I like the lancing pen that came with my meter the setting needed to be set to 8 to actually produce the blood droplet. Can I use a different brand or do I need to use the brand like the meter. Also, while reading the manual it stated that the meter also test for ketones. In order to test for the ketones am I required to use different test stripes? Now I just need to get a rountine set down on testing times. I tested him around 3:30 pm and he had a reading of 196. Still trying to learn the peaks and when the best times would be to test him.

My vet would like him to stay on the 23 units for another day or two to see how he does. I just wanted to thank alll of you for your support and encouraging words. I don't think I would of had the courage to try the testing again without the help of this forum.

Thanks to all
Dawn:)

Dawn,

You can use the lancets without any device at all, if you want.

It sounds like you have the Precision Xtra meter as that's the only one that tests blood for ketones. You do need to have different test strips to do ketone testing with it. The test strips are VERY expensive--we recently priced them at Walgreens' online; you get a pack of 10 ketone strips for $42.99. Testing urine with ketostix (urine strips that test for ketones only; ketodiastix test for both glucose and ketones in urine) if you're seeing high bg's would be much cheaper.

Every dog has different spots where he or she doesn't mind being tested. This is why you see information about so many different places people do testing. Some are fine with the inner or outer lip, while others aren't. What matters is that you find a place to do testing that's right for you and Zeus.

Most people test before breakfast and before dinner. Some also test in the middle of the day and before bed in addition to that. It's testing before Zeus eats and gets his insulin I think I'd try working on for now.

Congratulations for giving it another try and doing so well with it! :)

Kathy

zeusmomma
02-25-2009, 07:24 PM
Hi Kathy,

I have the Wavesense Presto. I guess I must of read wrong info about the ketones. I did just check my lancets it does'nt look like they are 25 gauge. The box says super fine maybe that is why my setting needed to be on 8. Will this affect the blood sample also?



Dawn

We Hope
02-25-2009, 08:18 PM
http://www.themedsupplyguide.com/lancets/

"Lancets are used for diabetic testing. It's the device that punctures the finger (or alternative site for most new meters) to extract blood for testing. Diabetic lancets are available in different gauges. The gauge of the lancet refers width of the metal point. The higher the gauge, the smaller the perforation the lancet makes. Usually a higher-gauge lancet is less painful to use, but it may be harder to get an adequate amount of blood with a higher-gauge lancet.

"Some individuals use lancets alone to get a blood sample. This method can sometime be painful so most people prefer to use some type of diabetic lancing device. A lancing device uses a spring mechanism to insert the lancet into the skin. It also allows the user to adjust the depth depending on the thickness of the skin and sensitivity of the fingertip. In this way, enough blood can be obtained without causing unnecessary pain. In most cases, when you buy a blood glucose monitor a lancing device is included.

"Most lancet devices come with short and long lancet covers to provide different degrees of penetration, and many have adjustable covers or caps. Generally, people who are first-time users, children, or people with delicate skin prefer a longer cover for more shallow penetration of the lancet. People who have tougher skin or poor circulation choose a shorter cover for deeper penetration by the lancet."

Lancet gauges are like needle gauges in that the higher the number you see on them, the finer the lancet or the needle. You may want something a little bigger so that you don't need to have as much penetration to easily get enough blood for a test.

I think you might be going through a callus there (they call the elbow stick the callus stick too), so it is going to be harder to make a stick there because the skin's tougher.

http://www.themedsupplyguide.com/lancets/faq3.html

What diabetic lancet gauge size is best?

"Many people have callused skin, therefore a thicker needle is required."

http://www.catinfo.org/felinediabetes.htm

"Lancets range in size from a large 25 gauge to a very small 33 gauge. However, most companies do not state the gauge size on their lancet boxes so it can be confusing when trying to figure out which lancets to buy. Generally speaking, when you see lancets labeled "ultra-fine" or "ultra thin", that denotes a very fine lancet size (31,32,33 gauge). Exception to the word "ultra" is the LifeScan One Touch UltraSoft lancets. They are 28 gauge and many people have good luck with those."

http://www.walgreens.com/library/centers/diabetes/lancets.jsp

Walgreens' has a chart with information about various brands of lancets, the gauges of those brands and the lancing devices they'll fit into.

HTH!

Kathy

BaileyBear
02-25-2009, 09:12 PM
Congratulations on successfully BG testing Zeus - way to go!! :D

eyelostit
02-25-2009, 10:24 PM
Congrats on the testing, I use a thicker gauge lancet also, my trick I learned, is I push the lancet in gently, give it a little easy twist and pull out and milk it a bit, I only do this because its hard to get blood with Niki, the thin lancets were never going to work with us.;)

zeusmomma
02-26-2009, 04:30 AM
Hi again,

Sorry for all of the questions....How do you know if your meter is pretty accurate when compared to the vets results. I read a post that stated their meter was lower by about 30 points. Would I need to compare my testing with the lab work?

I got a negative urine sample on Zeus this morning then tested his blood he was at 86.

Dawn

Cara's Mom
02-26-2009, 05:02 AM
At your next visit to your vet bring your meter along and when they draw blood or test with their meter have them use your meter too. So you can compare both reading. I am using OneThouchUltra and it's about 20 lower in high and low readings, but about 30 in the middle readings.

k9diabetes
02-26-2009, 01:12 PM
Our OneTouch Ultra was the same as Cara's. I tested it at various times during vet visits.

zeusmomma
02-28-2009, 05:10 AM
OK...so I have been testing Zeus's blood at home since Thursday. His readings have been as followed;

7am (preshot) 86, 3pm 125, 7pm(preshot) 52

7am 150, 3pm 209, 10pm 98

This morning 7am 194

I just checked in with the vet. She now wants me to decrease his insulin to 22 units instead of the 23 units that he was receiving. She also would like for me to do a curve next Sat or Sun.

I am currently using the WaveSense Presto Test meter. She recommended purchasing the AlphaTrak. Does anyone use the AlphaTrak? Should I not use my meter for the curve? Where can I purchase them?

Dawn

peggy0
02-28-2009, 07:23 AM
I use the alpha trak. Its made for animals. You can buy it on line. I use entirely pets for testing materials. www.entirelypets.com. Very reliable.

We Hope
02-28-2009, 08:40 AM
Dawn,

If you want the AlphaTrak, try cyber-pricing it as Peggy has suggested. It's not inexpensive, neither the meter nor the strips. Doing some checking before buying could get you a better price on it. Most vets do sell it along with the strips, BTW.

http://www.alphatrakmeter.com/atm/url/content/en_US/0:0/AlphaTrak_Instructional_Video.htm

Introduction to AlphaTrak
Control Testing with AlphaTrak
Obtaining a Blood Sample
Reviewing Results
Troubleshooting AlphaTrak

You'll find all the "how to's" at the link if you want to check it out before you buy one.

Kathy

zeusmomma
03-02-2009, 09:14 AM
So I did some price searching and purchased the Alpha Trak from entirelypets.com. Thanks Peggy. I have a appointment set up with the vet just to come in and see if there are any differences in the readings between her meter and my meter.

Zeus is now on the 22 units and his bg has been running higher. She was concerned since he had the low reading of 52 on the 23 units that he could be experincing Somogyi.

Now we are back to higher bg levels. When he was on the 23 units his levels were not as high but he did have that one low level. I am getting a bit frustrated it seems that he maybe between the 22 and 23 units.

I am going to perform a curve on Saturday as per the vet and hopefully we can find his dose.

The vet said that it is better to be high than low. Is this true? I have read also that it is not good to always have the high bg.

Dawn

We Hope
03-02-2009, 09:44 AM
Dawn,

High bg's can do damage when they stay there for long periods of time. One serious low can harm or even kill. Most people with diabetes are more afraid of the unexpected lows, especially when they happen while you're sleeping.

I have a friend who's an RN who has diabetes; she's very knowledgable about the mechanics of diabetes and how her insulins affect her body personally. Still, I know of at least two occasions she went into a hypo while sleeping; her husband had to use the glucagon kit on her to get her blood glucose back up.

Zeus may do fine on 22.5 units if 22 isn't enough and 23 is too much. He may well have been having a rebound situation, but the only way to get out of rebound is to lower the insulin because it's the insulin that causes the lows and then the counter-regulatory hormones activate to produce the highs. When you put a stop to the lows, you'll stop triggering the counter-regulatory hormones, and that ends the highs from it too.

Kathy

zeusmomma
03-02-2009, 10:14 AM
Thanks Kathy, that makes sense. I am hoping to get the vet to again with me.

Thanks for everything... Dawn

eyelostit
03-02-2009, 07:29 PM
I think the 22.5 might be the answer, what are you getting for am and pm fast lately? Are you stll feeding the Royal Canine wasn't that lowfat or low calorie ? and the turkey or chicken ? Also you may want to do a 22 and 22.5 some do that, If you are getting lows again you may want to add a bit more food, it just takes a tiny tweak at times.

Thanks,:)
Dolly

k9diabetes
03-02-2009, 09:38 PM
Paul's Zip was like this... a 1 unit increase sent his BG too low so he stuck with the smaller amount to avoid the risk of hypoglycemia. I used U100 syringes with half unit marks and adjusted by quarter units as Chris only used 7-8 units of insulin. A 1 unit increase was a lot for him.

zeusmomma
03-03-2009, 04:32 AM
Yes, Dolly I am feeding Zeus 1 can of Royal Canine L/F mixed with a 1/2 can of W/D and 1oz of boiled chicken. Should I give 22 in am and 22.5 pm? I think I need to get different syringes because I dont see the half of units marked on the ones that I have.

Maybe I should increase to 2 cans in pm and am. Zeus is slowing become my millionaire pouch.

Dawn

We Hope
03-03-2009, 07:19 AM
Dawn,

You're right in that all syringes don't have half unit markings.

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Syringe#U100_Syringes

I'd try getting some 3/10 cc syringes as they are the only ones offering half unit markings. These are considered "low dose" syringes for people and that's why some of them are marked for half units.

All 3/10 cc syringes are not marked for half units, as you see by the table at the link. Ask the pharmacist for 3/10 cc syringes with half unit markings. They hold up to 30 units of U 100 insulin so with Zeus at the 22-23 "neighborhood", you can use them without worrying they're not large enough.

Kathy

eyelostit
03-03-2009, 08:21 PM
Hi, just wondering how today went.;)

zeusmomma
03-04-2009, 09:45 AM
So...I just talked to my vet. She decreased Zeus's insulin again to 20 units. I told her some of the BG readings that I have be getting. And since he is still getting some low ones she decreased the insulin. We will now be doing the home curve in 10 days (next Sat 3/14). Here are his numbers what do you guys think?

3/2- 8am359
4pm-96
7pm-51

3/3-7am(pre fasting) 209
12pm 159
7pm 77

3/4
8am 220
11am 61

Dawn

k9diabetes
03-04-2009, 09:57 AM
Are those AlphaTrak or your human meter readings?

I am not comfortable with such low readings so I would agree with reducing the insulin. It would be nice to find a dose you can stay at for a while and let things settle. Hopefully 20 units is it.

It's not unusual for them to drop back to the final dose after some time at better blood sugars and that may be the case now with Zeus.

If you can keep the BG safely high enough - no lows - on 20 units, I'd ignore higher readings and hold at that dose for a week to ten days so there is time for him to settle in and just observe. Don't make any changes if the blood sugar stays above 80 and the lowest blood sugars remain fairly low.

That can be hard to do but it's only with a consistent diet and insulin dose that you finally get a chance to see the long-term response.

zeusmomma
03-04-2009, 12:36 PM
Hi Natalie,

Those readings are from a human meter WaveSense Presto. I am still waiting for the Alpha Trak to come in the mail.

I will keep him at 20 units till I do the curve on the 14th. When I check him at 11am he was reading 61. Feed him a little boiled chicken with a small amount of W/D and just check him now he is reading 134.


We are trying to be very consistent with his diet but it seems like he has be kind of jumping all over with his readings and insulin doses. Do you think I should consider feeding him a bit more at his am and pm feedings?

Thanks so much for all of your help and advice. This forum and kind souls like yourself and Kathy have been a god sent.

Dawn

k9diabetes
03-04-2009, 02:31 PM
I believe it was Maggie who did just this same thing - suddenly going low on a dose that was previously not a problem. In Maggie's case I think it was more of a blip.

Wouldn't hurt to feed a bit more. You can often do finer adjustments with food than with insulin. Sometimes a little bit more food will bring those low numbers up nicely and better balance the insulin.

I'll be curious to see what you get with the AlphaTrak versus the WaveSense.

Natalie

zeusmomma
03-04-2009, 06:40 PM
Hi..I know this is really silly of me to ask but, I was wondering if anyone changes the time of giving insulin when the clocks move forward on Sat. night.

Since Zeus is having a hard time right now getting regulated I wasn't sure how to handle the difference with the time change.

I know this is a crazy question but just wanted to get some feedback since I am a nervous nelly about changing his times.

Dawn

We Hope
03-04-2009, 06:51 PM
Dawn,

I can tell you how I did it--others may have their own "secrets". :D

What I wanted to do was to make sure we stayed with the 12 hours apart, so I kept one clock set to old time and worked from that. I'd gradually move the food and shot up about 10 minutes until I'd managed to get 100% on the new time with the shots 12 hours apart. Then I'd set the clock I'd kept at "old" time to the present as I no longer needed it that way.

According to "the book" you have a 1 hour "window" either way where you can be an hour early or late with a shot and things shouldn't get off-kilter.

My big thing was sticking with being consistent, as I'd seen that do wonders for Lucky when we had to work with insulin that was less than 100% potent. Consistency with the weak insulin made things work until we could get a replacement vial. (This was before Vetsulin was approved and pharmacies didn't stock pork insulin but had to order it for you.)

Kathy

k9diabetes
03-04-2009, 09:19 PM
If you don't want to leave it the same "real time" the way Kathy did, you can just switch them over to the new time.

You usually can get by with an occasional 1 hour difference so can make the switch all at once or you can do an adjustment of 15 minutes or a half hour.

So if you injected at 8am, spring forward makes that 9am.:
You could feed and inject at the "new" 8am, an hour early
(11 hours after last injection).

You could feed and inject at the "new" 8:30am, a half an hour earlier (11.5 hours after last injection),
then at the "new 8:00pm
and you'd be back on schedule in one day.

You could feed and inject at the "new" 8:45am, fifteen minutes earlier (11.75 hours after last injection),
8:30pm,
8:15am the next day, and
8:00pm the next day
- each shot is fifteen minutes earlier than a 12-hour cycle - putting you back on schedule the next evening.
Because Chris was on a short schedule, I did usually adjust it in increments - an hour was a much bigger change on a every-six-hour-injection schedule. But a lot of people using longer acting insulins like Vetsulin and NPH just switch straight through.

BestBuddy
03-04-2009, 09:24 PM
I usually change about half an hour for a day or two then got back onto the right time. That way it was only a few days for the changeover. I really didn't notice any big difference in Buddy's BG.
Jenny

eyelostit
03-05-2009, 12:05 AM
I'll start feeding earlier abit 1/2 hr or hour, 15 min, long as I check Niki, you should not see any big differences in the bg as the insulin is wearing down some by that 11th hour.

zeusmomma
03-06-2009, 01:24 PM
I just received my Alpha Trak meter today. Ok..so I made sure that the code was right and I used the solution. I can't seem to figure out how to set the date and time yet. But I just got done testing Zeus's blood with the Alpha Trak which had a reading of 385 and then checked him with the human meter which had a reading of 304. Is it possible that the meters can be that way off in readings!

I have a consultation appointment set up for Monday with my vet to compare my meters with her Alpha Trak.

Dawn

We Hope
03-06-2009, 01:33 PM
Dawn,

All meters have some variance. The ones for people which are FDA-approved have to be accurate within a certain percentage or they don't go on the market. If you had 3 meters and used some of the same blood sample on them all, your readings would be slightly different.

http://www.alphatrakmeter.com/atm/url/content/en_US/0:0/AlphaTrak_Instructional_Video.htm

There are some AlphaTrak Flash movies at the link which might help you get the date and time set up.;)

Kathy

zeusmomma
03-09-2009, 04:56 PM
Hello Everyone,

I am trying to hang in there but, I am slowly losing it.

Just came from a vet's visit today with Zeus. This is a new vet my old vet didn't have the knowledge to deal with the diabetes (at least I felt that way). She said that Zeus numbers we ok but not great and to stay on the 20 units and do a curve on Sat 3/14.

She gave him a full exam and then came the bad news. Zeus has a fractured tooth it is a bit inflamed so she put him on Clavamax twice a day and is recommended an extraction for next week. I feel horrible that I did not notice this I have been so concerned with the diabetes and bg's. She said it may be possible to do a root canal but needs to do the xray first. She was really leaning towards the extraction though. Has anyone went through this before. Is this a safe procedure for a diabetic?

Also, she wants to take an xray of his back leg because she has some concern that the might be an ACL tear. Zeus has had some stiffness before when he is done extremely rough exercise but this is the first that I have heard ACL mentioned.

I feel like we can not get our head above the water. Any advice?

Dawn

k9diabetes
03-09-2009, 05:29 PM
Chris had one of his huge molar type teeth extracted but it was about a year before he became diabetic.

I can say though that he hardly seemed to notice the extraction. I don't think he even needed any pain meds!

He broke off the whole front face of the tooth (an upper one) chewing on a large bone and we didn't notice it for a while either - didn't seem to particularly bother him - We discovered it because we found a big chunk of the front of the tooth on the carpet!!!

But then it got infected up inside there. We didn't even consider a root canal. Just took it out.

My cat also had several extractions and did well.

I know lots of dogs who have been anesthetized while diabetic for various operations and all have done well. There's always a risk with anesthesia, of course, but I haven't seen any adverse events so far with diabetics.

Natalie

peggy0
03-09-2009, 05:43 PM
Forbins having his teeth cleaned next Tuesday under anisthesia. I had a very long talk with the vet today about my concerns. He spend alot of time with me explaining the monitoring and anisthetic and I'm comfortable having it done now. Onward...

eyelostit
03-09-2009, 07:53 PM
Dawn, :)

At times when taking an antibiotic the bg may come down as the infection heals, I think it was mentioned about adding some more food, its great that you are hometesting now.

That difference in the pet meter vs the human one makes perfect sense, I've noticed with human meters the lower the bg the closer the human meter is to the pets bg maybe 30 pts if under 200.

Don't get down on yourself for not noticing the tooth, my Chief had a dead canine tooth, I didn't know it was dead, the tooth did not need pulled as the vet was checking him, it was not falling out or loose, blood work was good etc.

It'll be ok, hang in there;)
dolly

BaileyBear
03-09-2009, 10:48 PM
I'm sorry you and Zeus are going through such a rough time. I can only hope he is getting it all out of the way and the future will be smoother sailing for you both. I hope this new vet works out. :)

zeusmomma
03-10-2009, 05:09 PM
When I perform the curve on Saturaday do I test every 2hours starting at fasting and ending before pm shot.

Zeus's numbers have been high today

291,309,393. Could this be happening from what he has going on (tooth, and leg problem) or a result of the antibotics Clavamox?

Dawn

Cara's Mom
03-10-2009, 05:26 PM
Cara's BG goes up when she was on clavamox! Antibiotics are known to cause the rise.
I am sorry you and Zeus are having a hard time at the moment, but hang in there..once the antibiotics are finished things will improve.

Hugs to both of you:)

eyelostit
03-10-2009, 05:28 PM
When I perform the curve on Saturaday do I test every 2hours starting at fasting and ending before pm shot.

Zeus's numbers have been high today

291,309,393. Could this be happening from what he has going on (tooth, and leg problem) or a result of the antibotics Clavamox?

Dawn

You can do your readings every 2 hrs if possible,

Yes Zeus could be running higher with an infection, here is a link with some info regarding glucose and infections:)

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Obstacles_to_regulation#Infections.2FIllness

This link is for med's
http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Medication_warnings

zeusmomma
03-11-2009, 03:39 AM
Now my poor baby getting sick it must be from the Clavamox!!

Help!!! Zeus won't eat this morning I gave him 10 units instead of the 20 that he usually takes.

What should I do??



Dawn

k9diabetes
03-11-2009, 07:55 AM
How long has he been on Clavamox?

Chris could never tolerate it - made him throw up every day.

Half the insulin is probably okay though I'd be more comfortable with that amount if he ate some. I would give only about a quarter of the usual insulin with no food until you see how that size dose and no food affects him.

Are you with him now?

How's he doing?

Chris tended to throw up while on Clavamox when his stomach was empty. Usually just before he was due for a meal.

Natalie

zeusmomma
03-11-2009, 11:50 AM
Hi Natalie,

Zeus has taken the Clavamox since Monday night. One dose on Mon. two doses yesterday.

I just came home since this morning around 9am give him a pepcid as directed by vet. Zeus just ate two cups of some boiled chicken. Praying that he keeps it down.

BGs reading is 92 right now. Urine tested negative for ketones and bgs.

Is still not acting like himself just yet.

Spoke with vet stopped the Clavamox if he continues to vomit I will be seeing her tonight.

Thanks to everyone for their kind words and advice.

Dawn

zeusmomma
03-11-2009, 06:19 PM
God answered my prayers....YEAH Zeus ate this pm and so far kept it down. I gave him his regular dose of insulin. Hopefully, he will continue to keep it down through the night.

The vet would like to try a new antibotic next week before extracting the bad tooth. She thought it might be better to so how he does on the meds before the surgery rather than after. Since he will need to take and antibotic and the extraction. Zeus has a very weak stomach since his battle with pancreatitis. Not sure what she will be putting him on.


I will keep you posted.

Dawn

Fishslayer
03-11-2009, 07:01 PM
Hope things go well!

Rick

eyelostit
03-11-2009, 07:11 PM
Well thats good the Clavamox tho it upset him must of cleared up some of the infection.

With that 92, I'm glad Zeus ate.

Things are looking better. ;)

k9diabetes
03-11-2009, 08:56 PM
Clavamox was the only antibiotic Chris had trouble with. Something about that one does a number on a lot of dogs.

I remember it so distinctly because the vet and the office manager said it CAN'T be the Clavamox very adamantly... apparently because Chris threw up several hours after taking it instead of right away. Yeah right... let's see... I give it to him and he throws up daily. I stop giving it to him and he doesn't throw up at all... you tell me what's causing this!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Sorry, I'm still a bit PO'd about that! ;) )

Chris took a lot of Simplicef for skin infections - it's an expensive once-a-day version of Cephalexin - and always did great with it. Plain cheap Cephalexin he didn't tolerate as well - didn't make him sick but it did seem to upset his stomach some. He did okay on Baytril too.

Natalie

peggy0
03-12-2009, 03:35 AM
My springer cannot take clavamox at all. She is sick immediately. Does well on Baytril

zeusmomma
03-12-2009, 04:48 AM
Ok...here we are again Zeus had a 1/4 of his food this morning and is reading a 36 for bg. Do I give him insulin? What amount?

Dawn

We Hope
03-12-2009, 05:53 AM
Right now, I would see that he got some syrup and more food a little while after that. You need to bring his bg's up. This time, I believe I would skip the shot and not give one until the evening.

Zeus needs to have his bg's come up--some syrup and more food will do that. He should be a little more eager to eat once his bg's come up.

Zeus will be running higher than normal because of the syrup and because of skipping the shot this morning for safety's sake. You can get his bg's back into line later--this won't prevent him from regulating.

He needs some sugar to start with, followed by some food--anything he will gladly eat--a little bit after he gets that syrup or sugar.

Kathy

Since I don't think you'll be at home to watch him, I think it would be dangerous for Zeus to take any shot this morning. What we don't want is for him to go hypo while you're not there. Skipping the shot this time and going with the syrup/sugar and more food should make sure he won't go hypo.

zeusmomma
03-12-2009, 06:05 AM
Thanks, Kathy this is really weird I just took his readings again and had a 270 maybe the reading with the 36 was an error. Tested two more times after the 270 and got a 231 and 243.

Just noticed also that the little food that Zeus ate this am he vomitted it up out back. I did not give the shot this morning.

How long does the Clavamox take to get out of their systems? I am no wondering if it could be the tooth that is causing problems.

He ate his pm dinner last night and kept it down.

This is driving me crazy, I feel like I opened up a can of worms with giving him the meds.

Dawn

We Hope
03-12-2009, 06:19 AM
Dawn,

It's possible you had either not enough blood or too much blood on the strip that caused the reading of 36. When you get something like this that doesn't look right to you, it would be a good idea to re-test right away to see if the numbers agree.

If you're getting an initial low reading as you did this morning and you see Zeus showing signs of having low bg's, then of course, you go ahead and treat with the syrup or sugar.

I think you did get an error with that 36 as long as the tests after that were in the 200's, but better to be safe than having a hypo. Zeus will be running higher because he's missed his morning insulin, even if he was only getting a partial dose, but it's nothing that can't be "fixed". ;)

I had to have mine on Clavamox in December for a UTI and again in January as a preventive for some skin lesions. He tolerated it without any side effects. (My diabetic Lucky never had any infections after diagnosis--this one doesn't have diabetes but came up with the UTI.)

The Clavamox should be gone in about 48 hours after Zeus got the last dose. The problem with so many of the antibiotics is the various GI side effects from them. I don't know how long your vet said to give Zeus the Pepcid, but if you were supposed to be done giving it, I'd call and explain what happened as I think he could use some more doses if your vet would approve.

The tooth may be part of what's causing Zeus' not wanting to eat, but it sounds like the vomiting might still be due to Clavamox having upset his stomach.

Don't beat yourself up about the Clavamox--nobody knew Zeus wasn't going to tolerate it. There are a lot of other antibiotics your vet can choose from, if needed in future, and Mr. Zeus is not going to have this affect his getting regulated--it's a little "detour", but you will get there! :)

Kathy

eyelostit
03-12-2009, 02:01 PM
Don't beat yourself up about the Clavamox--nobody knew Zeus wasn't going to tolerate it. There are a lot of other antibiotics your vet can choose from, if needed in future, and Mr. Zeus is not going to have this affect his getting regulated--it's a little "detour", but you will get there! :)

Kathy

Chin up!! all will be well with Zeus ;)

zeusmomma
03-12-2009, 08:48 PM
So the Clavamox meds have cost me a $140.00 in new meds. I spent two hours in the vets office today and left with four new meds. This morning after Zeus ate the little bit of food and vomitted it up I called the vet who said not to give any insulin. Then after checking his bg's I was then told to give 10 units which at that point was 10 am two hours later than he normally gets his dose. Was then told to come to the vets.

Went to visit the vet at 10:15 am which at that point Zeus had blood work done. Blood work came back ok. He then received two injections one with pepcid and the other Cerenia (anti-nausea). We were also sent home with Cerenia (for 4 days) and Sucralfate(for 5 days). Dr. wanted to make sure we were not going to be dealing with another bout of pancreatatis. Zeus had this two years ago and was hospitalized.

This evening Zeus did not seem to interested in his food but ate a little and then after about 15 minutes decided to finish his dinner. We took Zeus for a little walk and then came the diarehha. Called into the vet and she thought it would be a good idea to start him on Metronidazole (for 7 days) and FortiFlora (for 7 days). All of this from taking Clavomox. My thoughts are that the Clavamox upset his whole GI tract and may have caused his pancreas to become inflammed. Just my thoughts. Zeus has a very sensitive stomach.

The vet suggested to give him 15 units but after testing in bg which was 480 I gave him the 20 units since he did eat all of his pm meal. I hope I made the right call. I did not get a chance to give him the dose until 10:38pm.

Zeus's insulin schedule has been totally screwed up with all of this craziness. How do I get him back to the 8 o' clock schedule now that we are two hours different? Any advice?

Also, Zeus was do for a curve of Sat. the vet suggest to wait until the middle of next week. What are your thoughts?

Now, I am scared to death when he has his extraction done and will have to be placed on antibotics. What will we have to deal with.

And to make all of this situation worse my husband was laid off from his job today.

I am really trying hard to keep my chin up!!!

Thanks, Dawn

eyelostit
03-12-2009, 09:29 PM
quote=zeusmomma;8389]
Also, Zeus was do for a curve of Sat. the vet suggest to wait until the middle of next week. What are your thoughts?

Doing the curve is good next week, with the antibiotics and things changing the curve would not be accurate.

Now, I am scared to death when he has his extraction done and will have to be placed on antibotics. What will we have to deal with.

You can always hold back on that until you are ready,the antibiotics will help with any inflammation, lets see how this goes with Zeus next few days.

And to make all of this situation worse my husband was laid off from his job today.

I am really trying hard to keep my chin up!!!

I really feel awful that you are going thru all this, I'm sorry about your hubby and his job, you are getting hit with alot right now, breathe, take some time for yourself to think about things sort them out, I know its easier said than done, anytime you need a rope to hang on to we are here. I'm hoping you feel a lil better. :)

zeusmomma
03-12-2009, 09:46 PM
Thanks, Dolly it is nice to hear some kind and comforting words.

Do you have any thoughts on how to get his insulin schedule back on track.

Thanks so much for caring

eyelostit
03-12-2009, 09:55 PM
"The vet suggested to give him 15 units but after testing in bg which was 480 I gave him the 20 units since he did eat all of his pm meal. I hope I made the right call. I did not get a chance to give him the dose until 10:38pm."


Zeus did eat all of his evening meal yes ? no vomiting ? have you checked Zeus's bg this evening? Still have the diarrhea ?

We Hope
03-13-2009, 04:59 AM
Dawn,

You have a "window" of one hour in which you can be up to an hour early or late with food and insulin without things going wrong. A lot of people take advantage of this because of necessity--they're stuck in traffic and get home later than normal, and so on.

Let's say that Zeus got his shot last night at 10:30, which puts you two and a half hours off schedule, so we have 150 minutes to make up. I believe I would move Zeus' shots up 50 minutes a day with the result being that you would be back to 8 AM and 8 PM on day #3 of the "move".

Remember that this all works fine with the hour for many people and pets when we change our clocks as we did recently. When we go from standard time to daylight saving time if we go by what our clock says, we are using that hour "window" because you're technically giving a shot when only 11 hours have passed.

I agree with your vet about waiting until next week for a curve on Zeus--let him get back to his normal 8 AM & 8 PM schedule and be there for a bit before that happens. What may also be happening is that some of the meds Zeus just got yesterday may have some type of effect on his blood glucose--could be influencing them to be somewhat up or down. By next week, he'll be through with the meds and then they wouldn't be able to possibly play a role in the curve results.

Hope that from this point on, things will take a BIG turn for the better for all of you! :)

Kathy

zeusmomma
03-13-2009, 06:21 AM
Thanks, Kathy and Dolly you have help greatly. I am hoping that we are on our way. I am not sure about giving Zeus the Metronidazole which was given for diarehha. I have been reading about the meds and it can cause vomitting and a bunch of other nasty side effects. Don't need to go down that road again. I think I may just watch to see if the loose stools continue before using that med.

What are your thoughts?

Dawn

peggy0
03-13-2009, 08:12 AM
I can tell you I've taken it and it makes me deathly sick. Cure was sure worse than the disease.

zeusmomma
03-13-2009, 09:37 PM
Zeus has now ended up back in the animal hosiptal as of this evening. He still would not eat this am so my vet said no insulin since his bgs were at 111.

Tried to get him to eat his pm meal and had no luck with that either at that point 7pm his bg's were at 486 with a trace of ketones in his urine. Called the vet who suggested he go to the emergency.

Zeus has been at the facility twice before and they are absolutely wonderful. The ER dr thinks that all of the meds could of did a number on his system or they may be a chance that it could be pancretatis. She recommended he stay with iv fluids and they will be giving him either an xray or ultrasound to make sure. He heart rate was also a little low.

I had told her about his tooth that started this whole crisis. She felt that the tooth was not really that bad and said that her motto is if it is not broken dont fix it.

I feel so horrible. This is a new vet that was highly recommended and now I have my doubts about returning to her. She wants to extract the tooth and I now feel that may not be the best option with all of his issues. I dont know what to do. The Er doctor said it the tooth could of been in this condition for a few months.

Hopefully, Zeus will come home tomorrow feeling better, back to himself and most importantly with an interest in eating his food.

Please keep us in your prayers....

Dawn

Fishslayer
03-13-2009, 10:02 PM
Oh no. I hope they can figure this out.

Thoughts & prayers...


Rick

BaileyBear
03-13-2009, 10:21 PM
Poor guy - holding you both in my thoughts. Hopefully a night of fluids and care will have him feeling better tomorrow. I hope you are able to get a good night's sleep yourself and that Zeus can come home tomorrow, feeling more himself and with an appetite. :)

We Hope
03-14-2009, 06:12 AM
Dawn,

I hope Zeus is feeling a LOT better this morning and that he's going to be able to come home today! :)

Kathy

Margaret Boyle
03-14-2009, 07:55 AM
Dawn,
Best wishes and prayers for Zeus.

Kind regardsxx

zeusmomma
03-14-2009, 03:44 PM
Zeus is HOME!!!! The Dr. thinks all of the meds just upset his stomach so much that it caused him to not want to eat and gave him the runs. He seems much better now. Hopefully he will eat this pm for me with out any problems.

As far as the nasty tooth goes Dr. does'nt want to take it out just yet if it does'nt bother him. She would like to see him more regulated first

The surgeon looked at his knee what the vet thought was a ACL tear and does not feel he hasa cruciate tear. Xrays in the near future my be a good idea to determine if there is something else going on. It may just be arthritis. She may want to put him on a supplement or anti inflammatory med but since they can upset his stomach she does'nt want to start anything yet.

Hopefully, we are on are way back. I was going to perform a curve in 10-14 days.

Thanks, for everyones prayers and well wishes

Dawn

Cara's Mom
03-14-2009, 03:57 PM
So glad he's back home :):). Will keep my fingers crossed that he will eat his PM meal......Go Zeus Go!!!!!!

We Hope
03-14-2009, 03:58 PM
Dawn,

Glad to hear Zeus did not have pancreatitis!!! I agree with everything you heard from your vet from the tooth and waiting a while before thinking about giving Zeus anything for what might be arthritis.

It's great that he's at home again; you will be able to pick up where you left off with Zeus and his regulation very shortly!

Sure hope this is the END of the "bad stuff" and the beginning of "good stuff" for ALL of you! :)

Kathy

peggy0
03-14-2009, 04:26 PM
Great news Dawn! I'm sure he'll get right back on track@

k9diabetes
03-14-2009, 04:34 PM
Honestly, you all have got to stop having these emergencies when I'm away from the forum for a day! ;)

I sure hope it is NOT an ACL tear!

I'm so glad Zeus is home and hope he's feeling better.

Flagyl, Metronidazole, is really variable. It worked great for Chris and was given to help diarrhea and irritated bowel.

But I know a person for whom it makes them feel really lousy.

The main thing with the tooth will be if it's getting infected. Chris' was infected up side the jaw.

Natalie

Fishslayer
03-14-2009, 06:28 PM
Glad he's home! Hope his tummy gets to feeling better & he starts eating again.

Rick

BaileyBear
03-14-2009, 08:53 PM
So happy to hear Zeus is back home! Hope his evening meal went well and he's feeling much better! :D

eyelostit
03-14-2009, 11:18 PM
Dawn,
You've sure have had your hands full lately, I know Zeus is glad he is back home and that makes you feel a whole lot better, that tooth may have been like that for a long time, I hope Zeus ate and things are getting back to normal today, you can think about the tooth at a later date, maybe the tooth wasn't causing problems in the first place.

Take care, I'm glad you are feeling a lil better.:)

zeusmomma
03-15-2009, 09:24 AM
Zeus still does not have his whole appetite back. He is eating about half of his food. Is it ok to leave his food down for a few hours after giving him his insulin?

His readings today were 250, 225.

I gave him his full dose of 20 units.


Dawn

We Hope
03-15-2009, 09:43 AM
Dawn,

Watch him carefully because the 20 units is based on his eating all of the meal. I think you'd better give him some food--anything he will gladly eat-now, before all of those 20 units start working and there's not enough food for them.

I think I would give him only half of his usual number of units when he ate only half the food.

If you leave food down and it gets eaten like that, it can interfere with the action of the insulin, but I would get something into Zeus now to ward off the possibility of his going too low.

He'll have sort of messed up bg's for a bit, but that can be worked out when he's back to eating on schedule and eating all of it.

Kathy

k9diabetes
03-15-2009, 10:15 AM
Hi Dawn,

I too am worried about him having all 20 units and eating only half his food. I hope you managed to get him to finish his meal.

I went through the history the last week... I'm sorry you have been on such a rollercoaster! :(

I think it would be best to try to get Zeus onto some kind of consistent regimen even if it's not exactly what you would like.

If you have time in the mornings, it might be worthwhile to expect that Zeus will need a two-part breakfast... that is, you just expect that he will eat some now and some later and plan for that.

Then, if he just refuses to eat it all, I'd give him insulin according to some sort of intervals.... like if he eats nothing, he gets 1/4 or 1/3 of his insulin dose.

If he eats a 1/4 of his meal, he gets 1/2 his insulin dose and if he eats half his meal he gets 3/4 of his insulin dose.

This might need some tweaking based on Zeus' particular style.

Chris could have a third to half of his insulin if he didn't eat. But this is something I sorted out over time, starting with 1/4 of his insulin dose and watching to see how he handled that.

One thing I didn't go back and look at is diet... what is he eating? Perhaps he should be eating something more appealing to him. Cuz at this point his eating consistenly is really important. Is he on a bland diet since the stomach upset?

Natalie

___________

March 10

Zeus's numbers have been high today
291,309,393. Could this be happening from what he has going on (tooth, and leg problem) or a result of the antibotics Clavamox?

March 11

Now my poor baby getting sick it must be from the Clavamox!!
Help!!! Zeus won't eat this morning I gave him 10 units instead of the 20 that he usually takes.
What should I do??
BGs reading is 92 right now.
YEAH Zeus ate this pm and so far kept it down. I gave him his regular dose of insulin.

March 12

Ok...here we are again Zeus had a 1/4 of his food this morning and is reading a 36 for bg.
This is really weird I just took his readings again and had a 270 maybe the reading with the 36 was an error. Tested two more times after the 270 and got a 231 and 243.
Just noticed also that the little food that Zeus ate this am he vomitted it up out back. I did not give the shot this morning.
This evening Zeus did not seem to interested in his food but ate a little and then after about 15 minutes decided to finish his dinner.
The vet suggested to give him 15 units but after testing in bg which was 480 I gave him the 20 units since he did eat all of his pm meal.

March 13
Zeus has now ended up back in the animal hosiptal as of this evening. He still would not eat this am so my vet said no insulin since his bgs were at 111.
Tried to get him to eat his pm meal and had no luck with that either at that point 7pm his bg's were at 486 with a trace of ketones in his urine. Called the vet who suggested he go to the emergency.


March 14
Zeus is HOME!!!! I was going to perform a curve in 10-14 days.


March 15
Zeus still does not have his whole appetite back. He is eating about half of his food. Is it ok to leave his food down for a few hours after giving him his insulin?
His readings today were 250, 225.
I gave him his full dose of 20 units.

k9diabetes
03-15-2009, 10:16 AM
February 3: Right now Zeus is eating Royal Canin L/F formula along with some boiled chicken. He takes Huminlin N 15cc twice daily. He is going to his first glucose curve on Friday. The vet has me testing his urine 3x a day. Was bumped next day to 18 units.

February 12: Well, Zeus had his first glucose curve done yesterday his glucoses were high. He is now bumped up to 23 units twice a day of Humulin N. He seems to be doing well and still eating great. We go for another curve in 10 days. He does so well at the vets.
These were his readings; 9:15 am 420, 11:15 am 308, 1 pm 371, 3pm 438, 5pm 390.

February 20: Well, Zeus went to his second curve yesterday. I thought it would be better news but yes they increased his insulin again. He was on 23 units now he is taking 27 units twice a day. It seems that this is a lot of insulin to me but the vet said for a dog his size it really isnt at all. Zeus weighs 76.7 lbs.The vet suggested that I schedule an appointment for 10 days to give his body a chance to get adjusted to the new dose.
9am 433,11am 362, 1pm 374, 3pm 370, 5pm 365.

February 24: Zeus was running a negative glucose since Saturaday so the vet lower his dose from the 27 to the 24 units. Now, with the 24 units he was still running a neg glucose. I spoke with the vet again today and she lowered it to the 23 units.

February 28: OK...so I have been testing Zeus's blood at home since Thursday. His readings have been as followed;
7am (preshot) 86,
3pm 125,
7pm(preshot) 52
7am 150,
3pm 209,
10pm 98
This morning 7am 194
I just checked in with the vet. She now wants me to decrease his insulin to 22 units instead of the 23 units

March 2: Zeus is now on the 22 units and his bg has been running higher. She was concerned since he had the low reading of 52 on the 23 units that he could be experincing Somogyi.

March 3: I am feeding Zeus 1 can of Royal Canine L/F mixed with a 1/2 can of W/D and 1oz of boiled chicken.

March 4: So...I just talked to my vet. She decreased Zeus's insulin again to 20 units. I told her some of the BG readings that I have be getting. And since he is still getting some low ones she decreased the insulin. We will now be doing the home curve in 10 days (next Sat 3/14). Here are his numbers what do you guys think?
3/2- 8am359
4pm-96
7pm-51
3/3-7am(pre fasting) 209
12pm 159
7pm 77
3/4 - 8am 220
11am 61

March 6: Zeus's blood with the Alpha Trak which had a reading of 385 and then checked him with the human meter which had a reading of 304.

March 9: Just came from a vet's visit today with Zeus. This is a new vet my old vet didn't have the knowledge to deal with the diabetes (at least I felt that way). She said that Zeus numbers we ok but not great and to stay on the 20 units and do a curve on Sat 3/14.
She gave him a full exam and then came the bad news. Zeus has a fractured tooth it is a bit inflamed so she put him on Clavamax twice a day and is recommended an extraction for next week. I feel horrible that I did not notice this I have been so concerned with the diabetes and bg's. She said it may be possible to do a root canal but needs to do the xray first. She was really leaning towards the extraction though. Has anyone went through this before. Is this a safe procedure for a diabetic?
Also, she wants to take an xray of his back leg because she has some concern that the might be an ACL tear. Zeus has had some stiffness before when he is done extremely rough exercise but this is the first that I have heard ACL mentioned.

March 10: Zeus's numbers have been high today. 291,309,393. Could this be happening from what he has going on (tooth, and leg problem) or a result of the antibotics Clavamox?

k9diabetes
03-15-2009, 10:36 AM
This is a good point to remind folks that if you get a really off reading, like Zeus' 36 the other day, it's a good idea to check again, as Dawn did, as you may find that it was a bad reading.

In going back over all the history, I it looks like 20 units might be Zeus' no-pain/no-infection dose.

zeusmomma
03-15-2009, 06:31 PM
I think Zeus is just trying to drive me more crazy than I already am. He ate all of his pm which consist of 1cp chicken, 1/2 WD and we tried him with LD which he has eaten in the past. I don't know if that is the best for diabetics.

So I gave him his 20 units.

What do you guys feed?

Dawn

We Hope
03-15-2009, 07:12 PM
Dawn,

L/D is for liver problems.

http://www.hillspet.com/hillspet/products/prescriptionDiet/dogProducts.hjsp?radioLifestage=&radioSpecies=dog&radioVariety=&JSESSIONID=J9022vN2waJFn9zRMRr33zC8X4OSr4vnW1MH8nj JrkRhp9BpUjWM!1128263640!167846923!7005!8005&d-49653-p=3

l/dŽ Canine - Canned Liver problems
l/dŽ Canine - Dry Liver problems

W/D is for diabetes.

http://www.hillspet.com/hillspet/products/prescriptionDiet/dogProducts.hjsp?radioLifestage=&radioSpecies=dog&radioVariety=&JSESSIONID=J9022vN2waJFn9zRMRr33zC8X4OSr4vnW1MH8nj JrkRhp9BpUjWM!1128263640!167846923!7005!8005&d-49653-p=4

w/dŽ Canine - Canned Diabetes, weight control and digestive problems
w/dŽ Canine - Dry Diabetes, weight control and digestive problems
w/dŽ with Chicken Canine - Dry Diabetes, weight control and digestive problems

FWIW, we used W/D canned and had great success with it.

Kathy

ladysmom06
03-16-2009, 10:03 AM
Hi Dawn,

How is Zeus doing today? Hope all is going well.

What do you guys feed?


I have Lady on a homecooked diet. When she was first dx the vet wanted her on W/D - she hated it and would not eat:( - so we started homecooking for her and she loves it:). She gets low fat Turkey and Beef, Cottage Cheese, Oatmeal, Celery and Green Beans.

Good luck to you and Zeus. Hugs to both of you.

Luv,
Lynne and Lady

zeusmomma
03-16-2009, 01:11 PM
I spoke with the Dr. today about Zeus' food. She also said we could try a senior diet if he continues to be picky about what he is eating.

I see that Hill's make a r/d. Has anyone tried this?

Dawn

We Hope
03-16-2009, 01:14 PM
Dawn,

I knew someone who was using this instead of W/D for her diabetic dog and it worked very well for them.

Kathy

eyelostit
03-16-2009, 07:08 PM
Hi Dawn,

I'm hoping the 20 units is working as long as Zeus is eating his full meal, i was looking over the insulin increases per the vet, vet is kinda jumpy as to the increases.

Hope things are better today.:)

k9diabetes
03-16-2009, 07:57 PM
I will bump up the food and insulin poll, where you can see what everyone who posted is feeding their dogs. There's a lot of variety.

Chris started on WD, went to Science Diet Light (had allergy to soy in it), then to Canidae and California Natural canned mixed with cottage cheese.

Natalie

k9diabetes
03-16-2009, 08:13 PM
I forgot the food thread is a sticky... may have already given it to you, but couldn't hurt to do it again:

http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240

eyelostit
03-18-2009, 12:46 AM
I forgot the food thread is a sticky... may have already given it to you, but couldn't hurt to do it again:

http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240

Thanks Nat I needed that link today.

How's our Zeus today ? :)

zeusmomma
03-18-2009, 07:29 AM
Zeus is doing much better thanks for asking. He seems to be eating his w/d along with some boiled chicken. The dr. is going to send me a list of some foods that are good for diabetics just in case my boy gets picky and does'nt want to eat.

I had two questions; does anyone give their fur babies bullysticks? Zeus enjoyed eating them before he was diagnoised but I have not gave them to him since. Is it the fat and carbs % that counts.

Also, I have the Alpha Trak meter and the WaveSense Presto. The Presto seems to run about 30 or so points more than the Alpha Trak. I have been reading some of the posts that some of you use the Alpha just for the curves. I was thinking of doing the same the Alpha strips are very expensive. Do you think this is a good idea?

Dawn

peggy0
03-18-2009, 08:58 AM
That's what I do. I use them for curving and if I'm concerned that he's low.

Cara's Mom
03-18-2009, 11:48 AM
Ditto here:D:D. For every day use it is OneTouchUltra!

zeusmomma
03-18-2009, 05:50 PM
What do you guys think of this for a treat after injections and bg testings?

delifreshpet.com

Dawn

Thanks for your advice.

We Hope
03-18-2009, 06:03 PM
Dawn,

I went to the site at http://www.delifreshpet.com/ and found these treats:

http://www.delifreshpet.com/products/treats.htm

The Loved Dog Treats

Chicken and beef.

http://www.delifreshpet.com/products/treats-chicken.htm

Real chicken-

Ingredients

Chicken, ground oats, chicken broth, salt, natural flavors.

Guaranteed Analysis

Crude Protein (min) 11.0%
Crude Fat (min) 10.0%
Crude Fiber (max) 2.0%
Moisture (max) 59.0%

http://www.delifreshpet.com/products/treats-beef.htm

Real beef-

Ingredients

Beef, chicken, ground oats, beef broth, salt, natural flavors.

Guaranteed Analysis

Crude Protein (min) 12.0%
Crude Fat (min) 9.0%
Crude Fiber (max) 2.0%
Moisture (max) 59.0%

You do have a complex carb there--the ground oats--but it's low on the glycemic index, so that's good. Why not try a bag of these with Zeus and see if there's any difference in his bg's after having them? These are going to be small bits--treats--so he's not going to be making a meal on them.

Dogs, like people, all process food a little differently. Some people with diabetes can have things like pasta and rice in moderation without having it affect their bg's too badly. Others can't even think about those foods without theirs going up.

I'd give these a try with Zeus and see. ;)

Kathy

zeusmomma
03-19-2009, 04:24 AM
Kathy,

What do you think about the sliced food in the roll?

Dawn

We Hope
03-19-2009, 09:57 AM
Dawn,

Give me a chance to have a look at the food--is it the roll you were interested in? Then I'll post the information, OK? :)

Kathy

zeusmomma
03-19-2009, 11:11 AM
Hi Kathy,

Yes, it is the roll they have a chicken and beef.

Sorry for so many questions. The vet just sent me some of the other foods that are good for Zeus.

There are:

Waltham Diabetic HF or Low Fat

Iams Optimum Weight Control

Purina DCO

I am not sure were these foods can be purchased. I checked petsmart and no luck.

Has anyone tried any of these foods?

We Hope
03-19-2009, 11:25 AM
Dawn,

It looks to me like everything on that list is prescription only, just as the W/D is, so that means you'd need to get them through your vet.

http://www.walthamusa.com/Learning%20Center/HF18.html

Waltham/Royal Canine Veterinary Diet--Diabetic HF

http://www.iams.com/iams/en_US/jsp/IAMS_Page.jsp?pageID=PL&productID=51

Iams Veterinary Optimum Weight Control

http://www.purinaveterinarydiets.com/CanineProductDetail.aspx?prod=221

Purina Veterinary--Purina DCO

Yep--these are all available by vet prescription only. ;)

Kathy

zeusmomma
03-19-2009, 11:48 AM
Thanks, Kathy

I think I may just stick with the w/d. Hopefully, he will get to like it we are still adding the boiled chicken into.

As far as the ingredients go in dog foods I know that we have to watch the carbs, sodium and fats. Right? What is a good % of fat for diabetics to eat.

Did you get a chance to check on the deli fresh roll.

Thanks so much for all of your quick responses and great advice.

Dawn

We Hope
03-19-2009, 12:03 PM
Dawn,

I'm hoping to read about the Deli Roll this afternoon. What you also want to pay attention to with the foods is the amount of fiber in them, as fiber can be a great helper in controlling bg's. Most of the canned non-prescription food on the market contains very little fiber.

The W/D Zeus is eating now has a decent amount of fiber in it--the R/D has even more. R/D is indicated for weight control, but I was on another board with someone whose dog refused to touch W/D but liked the R/D. There was no medical reason, according to her vet, that she couldn't use the R/D instead, and her dog did very well with her diabetes and control of it on that.

I would say that you would want to look for the least amount of fat you can find. Diabetics are prone to pancreatitis because they already have a disorder of one portion of the organ. With Zeus having had a bout with that, I would be especially interested in keeping the fat down to help prevent any further problems.

Kathy

k9diabetes
03-19-2009, 12:59 PM
Hi Dawn,

I've been meaning to get back here and tell you how sorry I am to hear that your husband was laid off. I hate what this economic mess is doing to people... I hope it's a very short term situation as I know how hard that is on a person and their family.

Natalie

We Hope
03-19-2009, 04:28 PM
OK, Dawn,

Here's what's there for the chicken and vegetables roll:

http://www.delifreshpet.com/products/cvr.htm

Ingredients

Fresh chicken, poultry liver, chicken broth, carrots, peas, brown rice, dried egg product, rice bran, sea kelp, carrageenan, salt, natural flavors, flaxseed oil.

Guaranteed Analysis

Crude Protein (min) 10.0%
Crude Fat (min) 6.0%
Crude Fiber (max) 2.0%
Moisture (max) 73.0%

And the turkey and vegetables roll:

http://www.delifreshpet.com/products/tvr.htm

Ingredients

Fresh turkey, poultry liver, turkey broth, carrots, peas, brown rice, dried egg product, rice bran, sea kelp, carrageenan, salt, natural flavors, flaxseed oil.

Guaranteed analysis

Crude Protein (min) 10.0%
Crude Fat (min) 6.0%
Crude Fiber (max) 2.0%
Moisture (max) 73.0%

Some have issues with carrots and peas because they contain more sugar than things like green beans. Some also have problems with rice...and then there are those who do just fine with the brown rice but not the white variety because the brown one's lower on the glycemic index.

I don't know if Zeus is eating W/D canned or W/D dry. If he's eating dry, this food has the same percentage of fat that's in W/D, but only 10% of the fiber:

http://www.rxpetfood.com/caninewddry.aspx

Right now, the official Hill's site is having some issues with displaying the analysis and ingredients. I know this is an older ingredients list because there's no longer peanut hulls in the W/D dry.

W/D Dry

Average Nutrient Contents
Nutrient Nutrient Guarantee % As Fed1 % Dry Matter2
% As Fed, Caloric Basis3 g/100 kcal
Protein______15.0 min__________17.2______18.9
5.8

Fat_________ 6.0 min_________8.1______ 8.9
2.7
Carbohydrate
(NFE)________________________44.7_____49.1
15.0
Crude Fiber__ 20.0 max_______16.8_____18.5
5.6 mg/100 kcal3

If Zeus is eating W/D canned, then this food has more fat in it than the canned W/D--still less fiber.

http://www.petrx.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=732

W/D Canned

Average Nutrient Contents
Nutrient Nutrient Guarantee % As Fed % Dry Matter
% As Fed, Caloric Basis g/100 kcal
Protein__________4.0 min_______4.5________17.9
5.1

Fat__________2.0 min________3.2________12.7
3.6
Carbohydrate
(NFE)_______________________13.2________52.6
14.8

Crude Fiber___5.0 max_______3.1________12.4
3.5 mg/100 kcal

I see that Jazzy Girl's Mom has started feeding Jazzy a combination of Iams weight control and one of these varieties of food:

http://k9diabetes.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8915&postcount=49

Depending on how this matches up with whichever W/D you're using, you might want to try mixing some of this in and seeing how Zeus does with it. Know people who are using this food and like it a lot, but Jazzy Girl's Mom is the only one I know who is feeding a diabetic pup with it.

Kathy

eyelostit
03-19-2009, 10:21 PM
Those treats ingredients don't look bad, I think if I saw them sold somewhere I'd give them a try.:)

zeusmomma
03-20-2009, 06:36 PM
Quick questions; Zeus has some redness in his left ear and some black stuff. Is this associated with an ear infection. Could this be caused by the insulin? I have some Otomax ointment that my old vet gave me in October. Not sure if I should use this or not. Expires next month. Do I need another visit to the vet?

Here we go again...I don't want to put him on any oral antibotics after what we just went through. He is finally back to his old self.

Dawn

We Hope
03-20-2009, 06:44 PM
Dawn,

It sounds like it might be an infection or that Zeus needs his ears cleaned. Insulin can't cause anything like that, but diabetes means you are more prone to infections than those without it.

I can't say whether the Otomax is the right answer--you need to call your vet and tell him/her about Zeus' ear. He/she may tell you it's OK to try the Otomax.

Kathy

peggy0
03-20-2009, 06:47 PM
It sounds like a yeast infection. It should have a nasty smell to it as well. I'd ask the vet what to use on it to get rid of the infection. I use witch hazel to clean.

eyelostit
03-20-2009, 09:51 PM
You could try the witch hazel or the tucks pads we mentioned to ladys mom, will Zeus let you clean his ears?

Niki will barely put up with me putting liquids in her ears, I know its a must if they are shaking their heads.

With my years and doggies and ears, I am able to clean inside of their ears very carefully some dogs will stand for it some don't. I only clean as far down as I can see with my headlight on my head, I order special Q tips from the pharmacy and i am really careful as not to drip any liquid down in the canal or any wax pieces, I blot any excess liquid off the Q-tip, It may be hard for some to do, or the dog won't stand for it, my one dog had to be sedated at the vet to even go near his ears, course he had cheat grass down there I couldn't see.

If you're uncomfortable to do this, or your doggie can't stand it, the vet is the best thing gving you peace of mind and the doggie !!

zeusmomma
03-21-2009, 05:59 AM
Thanks Dolly,

Yes...Zeus has no problem with me cleaning his ears. Are you talking about regular Tucks Pads. The same ones that we use. Huh....how interesting. Does this usually help with the yeast infections? I guess if it is not better by Monday will need to go in. Will this have any effect on his numbers?

Thanks,
Dawn

peggy0
03-21-2009, 09:55 AM
Yes I use the generic Tuck pads, the same for uh.....they sell them at walmarts or target and are cheaper than tucks. same thing.

We Hope
03-21-2009, 10:59 AM
Dawn,

Generally an infection will cause higher than usual bg's, but infections are also able to cause lower than normal ones. Think about it in terms of your own temperature when you're sick; there are times you run a fever, and there are times your temp is below normal with one.

Kathy

zeusmomma
03-25-2009, 06:21 PM
Hello All,

I did Zeus's first home glucose test today. I used the Alpha Trak meter. I am not real pleased with his results. I am not sure why his bgs are running high. He is eating mostly WD with 1/2 can of r/d and about a 1/2 cup of boiled chicken. The only thing that is different was he was eating royal canine L/f with 1/2 of w/d. We now stopped using the l/f.

He ear seems to be clearing up nicely with the Otomax.

He is now currently on 20 units.

He is his curve results;

6:30-(pre fasting) 158
8:30- (right before shot after eating) 435
10:30- 353
12:30- 176
2:30- 190
4:30- 297
6:30-326
8:30 (right before pm shot and before eating) 310

What do you guys think, not so great uh....

Dawn

We Hope
03-25-2009, 06:45 PM
Dawn,

I took a look back on a curve you did earlier this month:

March 3: I am feeding Zeus 1 can of Royal Canine L/F mixed with a 1/2 can of W/D and 1oz of boiled chicken.

March 4: So...I just talked to my vet. She decreased Zeus's insulin again to 20 units. I told her some of the BG readings that I have be getting. And since he is still getting some low ones she decreased the insulin. We will now be doing the home curve in 10 days (next Sat 3/14). Here are his numbers what do you guys think?
3/2- 8am359
4pm-96
7pm-51
3/3-7am(pre fasting) 209
12pm 159
7pm 77
3/4 - 8am 220
11am 61

I think this was done before the vet decreased Zeus to 20 units. This was when he was eating a mix of Royal Canin lowfat and W/D canned. If that's right, I think I would go back to the Royal Canin lowfat and the W/D canned because you didn't have the high numbers you do now with R/D in place of it.

It seems like he was doing nicely with the Royal Canin and the W/D plus the 20 units of insulin twice a day until he had the ear problem.

The prescription foods don't work the same for all dogs. Even though they say they are for diabetes, you can take a look at the thread we have on the board about what prescription foods you have fed or do feed. There are foods that people posted about which didn't do a thing for their dog--and then there are people whose dogs are doing great on.

Again, I believe I'd stop the R/D and go back to the Royal Canin lowfat and see how things will go for Zeus with it now on the 20 units.

Kathy

zeusmomma
03-25-2009, 06:52 PM
Thanks Kathy,

I guess I will give the l/f another try. Would you stay with 1 can of wd and 1/2 can of l/f or vice versa. Do you think the w/d could be giving high bgs?

Would you increase his insulin? When should I perform his next curve?

Thanks for all of the helpful info.

Dawn

We Hope
03-25-2009, 07:10 PM
Dawn,

Make only one change at a time so you know what works and what doesn't. I'd go back to the way you were feeding Zeus here-

March 3: I am feeding Zeus 1 can of Royal Canine L/F mixed with a 1/2 can of W/D and 1oz of boiled chicken.

and I'd leave the insulin alone unless I saw he was going too low. I'd try it this way for a while to see whether you can get the numbers you had here-

March 4: So...I just talked to my vet. She decreased Zeus's insulin again to 20 units. I told her some of the BG readings that I have be getting. And since he is still getting some low ones she decreased the insulin. We will now be doing the home curve in 10 days (next Sat 3/14). Here are his numbers what do you guys think?
3/2- 8am359
4pm-96
7pm-51
3/3-7am(pre fasting) 209
12pm 159
7pm 77
3/4 - 8am 220
11am 61

without having the lows from the higher dose of insulin Zeus was on.

I know you'll be doing your usual monitoring of him so you'll have some sort of idea how he's reacting to the old diet with the 20 units.

The "new kid on the block" with Zeus' food was the R/D and I think that's where the higher numbers might be coming from. The lady I knew who was using that instead of W/D for her diabetic dog didn't have bad numbers from it. (If that was the case, the R/D would have been replaced. ;) )

But if you take a look at some of the various threads on this board, you'll see some whose dogs actually have higher bg's from eating chicken where that doesn't happen for most of them. It's VERY much like the people with diabetes and reading their message board posts where one has a bg problem with a food or foods while it doesn't bother someone else.

Think I'd wait for about a week or better (unless something looks wrong to you in the meantime) with Zeus back on the old food mix before I did another curve.

Kathy