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lab lover
03-10-2009, 07:12 AM
Hi,

I am new to this forum and not sure I am posting in the right place. My dog Baby has diabetes we found out 2/1 /09 so this is all new too me. She is a yellow lab just turned seven on 2/20 was in good health untill this came a long. She takes 15 units twice a day after am and pm foods. She is at the vets today for another curve the fourth since we found out. I thought it would take time for her energy level too come back but, she really is still not up to par. A few days ago she didn't even want to eat and in the beginnning she was eating fairly good. We have been feeding her Solid Gold, Beef and barley no carbo, with turkey or chicken and some green beans - now we have too hand feed her to get her to eat so I can give her the insulin. She is on Vetsulin which is very expensive at the vet's my vet won't changed her to the human insulin so does any know where I can buy this cheaper. I pay 39.95 for a bottle and it last 12 days. We only lived on Social security and some savings from our old house but, the way we are going if things don't even out on her visits and insulin we might not be able to keep it up. I loved my Baby and will do anything for her. I need infor on food, insulin, syringes and anything else you can give me. My husband and I are so stressed out over this the kids are grown and out of the house so this is our baby. I lose my othe dog Nico after 12 yrs last Oct and that almost did me in. I had another lab for 12 yrs Beau so all my dogs I have been lucky to have them at least 12 yrs. but, with Baby I pray eveyday she will get regulated and back to her self again. PLs help me with infor. I need it bad. Lab Lover -Baby Girl

k9diabetes
03-10-2009, 09:22 AM
I believe that it is irresponsible for your vet to refuse to change to less expensive insulin when NPH works just as well as Vetsulin in most cases. We just did a comparison of costs with another member and NPH purchased from Wal-mart costs about one third as much as Vetsulin for the same sized dose. With larger dogs in particular, NPH is the better choice to start with.

Please ask your vet today for a copy of all of Baby's lab tests and curves and post the results of her curves here. It sounds like she may be a long way from regulation yet as it's very common for them not to want to eat when the blood sugar is high. With the curve results, we can help you sort out where Baby's regulation is.

Also, please post her weight.

Are you doing any monitoring of her blood sugar at home?

You can home test blood glucose and save money on curves by doing them yourselves. There are video and picture tutorials at www.k9diabetes.com/bgtestvideos.html (http://www.k9diabetes.com/bgtestvideos.html). With a lab, either an elbow callous or the inside of the upper lip would be good choices.

If the vet is unwilling to work with you, I think a new vet is in order. Do you have some options?

When you pick Baby up today, I would suggest that you have a frank talk with the vet about how you cannot afford to keep Baby on Vetsulin. Lack of money is a restriction that he ought to understand. If he still refuses to consider changing, you will need to find a vet who understands your limitations and works with you instead of endangering Baby by refusing to work with real financial limitations.

Home testing blood sugar would give you much better information and control over Baby's care so please consider learning how to do that. Vets often discourage it but it works great and most dogs don't mind it at all!! I wouldn't take care of a diabetic dog without it.

So tell us more and we can go from there. :)

Natalie

Fishslayer
03-10-2009, 10:17 AM
Welcome. You're at the right place.

Ditto everything Natalie said.

I am fostering a diabetic Cattle Dog & knew absolutely zero when I started. The folks here and at the Cushings site have walked me through every step with Lucy.

The vet who did Lucy's spay said that he doesn't have any patients on Vetsulin. The NPH works just as well (sometimes better) with almost all dogs. I am buying Relion N at WalMart for about $30 a vial & it lasts 2.5 times longer than Vetsulin. U100 syringes at WalMart are about $13 for 100. I also take comfort in the fact that if I drop a vial or some other disaster I can get insulin anywhere at any time.

The big long term expense is meter test strips, but they're still WAY cheaper than a vet visit every time I want to test Lucy's BG.

Like I said, I knew nothing when I started 2 months ago & now the routine is...well... routine.

Rick

BaileyBear
03-10-2009, 10:47 AM
Just wanted to say "Hi" and welcome you. :)

I know you are feeling very overwhelmed right now. I have a lab mix who was also diagnosed at 7, just this past January. I burst into tears that first night. But than I did just what you are doing now...started searching for more information and found my way here. ;)

Bailey is on Humulin N (the NPH that Natalie just mentioned) and it is much more affordable, not only per vial, but also the fact that you get more doses out of a vial. He is on 26 units (twice a day) and a vial will last us 19 days - there are 1000 units in a vial of NPH. Don't let your vet intimidate you into thinking there are not other viable options. Talk to him again and be frank about the situation. If this is not, and can not be, a good working relationship, move on to another vet. Is there more than one vet at the office? Sometimes just switching to a different doctor within the same practice can make a big difference. Our vet practice has 3 vets, but I have a much better partnership with one of them, so I stick with him.

Home blood glucose monitoring is something that is VERY doable and most of the people you meet on this message board are home testing their dogs. I don't know how much your current vet charges for curves, but it costs about $100 at our vet. I took Bailey for one curve in the beginning of his treatment and have been doing the rest at home ever since. That alone has saved us $100's of dollars.

Take a look at the monitors available at your local pharmacy and the cost of strips for each one. You can get many monitors for free or very inexpensive, but it's the strips that will end up costing you the most money. Walmart has an inexpensive one under their Relion name and the test strips are also very reasonable. I have a "TrueTrack" monitor that is kind of a generic monitor available under many pharmacy names - mine is Walgreen's version and I can get a box of 100 tests strips (2 containers in each box) for under $50. Each box has also come with a $5 off coupon for the next box. That makes my test strips under .45 cents a strip. If I do a curve on my dog, I use about 8 strips that day, at a total cost to me of less than $3.60 - MUCH cheaper than the vet. ;)

If you can post the information that Natalie requested, the very knowledgeable people here will have a better understanding of where your dog is currently and how they can help you get her back to good health. Not only will it help you to help Baby, but it will make you feel SO much better once you understand everything that's going on and what your options are for you and Baby...and your pocketbook.

Deep breath...I promise it gets much better. :)

eyelostit
03-10-2009, 01:41 PM
Hi Lab Lover Welcome :)

Nat gave you some great information, I would talk with that vet also.

We can help you here.

Are you the gal I think in TN ? I think you found me if that was you !!

Again Welcome !

lab lover
03-11-2009, 11:38 AM
Ok here I am Baby has been changed to NOVOLIN N 20 units 2x a day. I brought her for her curve yesterday and her sugar level were high all day in to the 400's by the end of the day. My vet called me and said we would have to up the VEtsulin so cost effective for me she would called in the human insulin plus I bought other syringes. When I asked for copies of her labs from last curve and this curve both of the vets were offended. they don't fee liked I trust them all I want too do is keep a record of how she does at evey curve. Now we have too start all over since we changed the insulin. I also had a new bottle of vetsuliin she was going to credit me and when I brought it to the office too pick up Baby the other vet would not credit me because I put it in a ziploc bag with ice and got the box wet (a little on the bottom of box) so he said he could not resell it - boy that really blew my mind after spending at least 1,000 dollars in six wks there. This morning my vet called me to talk about yesterday since she was not there when I picked up my dog and heard what happen - she feels liked I want to know to much infor and is afraid I will not followed her instructions - she got upset because I went to Wlmart to see if I could get cheaper syringes - I was going to asked her advice first. I was told only vetsulin syringes you used with the insulin. All I know I want my dog well and right now we have to hand feed her she is very mopey and laying around. I don't know if she is depressed, too much insulin, or too much sugar I am totally confused. My vet said to give her a half dose if she doesn't eat. she weights 97 pounds losed 10 pounds since we started giving her insulin. I don't know if I could do a curve at home but, she is due intwo wks for another one. I have always gotten along well lwith my vet it is her boss that is giving the orders and has too followed them I guess eveyone is worried about their job. Should I see a improvement in a couple of days with this insulin. I was going to by some cintrix sticks to check urine and see how much sugar she has I called Walgreens and they are ordering them with out a pres. Let me know if there is anything else I can give her to make her want to eat. thanks, I'm so worried she doesn't look good too me.

peggy0
03-11-2009, 12:38 PM
Is she eating? If she isn't eating, you cannot give her the whole dosage. Please post what her normal meal is and how much she is eating of that. Her dosage needs to be adjusted based on how much she is eating. The experts here will tell you how to adjust. Learning how to home monitor is peace of mind. You will learn like the rest of us did and won't need to have to pay your vet to do it. It's just my opinion, but no vet should be bullying you or denying you information about your dog. It's your dog and your responsible for its well being. I'd be looking for a new vet. We're all here to support you!!

We Hope
03-11-2009, 12:38 PM
First of all if she's in the 400's, she's feeling like this because her bg's are so high.

You vet is correct about not giving all the insulin if Baby does eat. Many times they don't want to eat because they have high blood glucose.

For right now, I would say the first step here is to get Baby to eat something and not worry about whether it's exactly right for diabetes or not. What you need to do is to get her eating something so that she can get the full dose of prescribed insulin. Once you can get her eating regularly and getting her full dose of insulin regularly, then you can worry about doing the "fine tuning" work of getting her regulated. As things are now, without her eating, you can't give her all of the insulin, and that isn't a step in the regulation direction.

It can take 3-7 days or possibly longer before you see the full effect of a change in an insulin dose, depending on the dog. Some respond to the change quicker than others. But remember that it will be tough to see any positive changes until you get Baby eating again and getting all of her insulin. When you can get to that point, then you will most likely see those positive results.

Before you can do a curve at home, you need to get a blood glucose meter and learn how to test Baby's blood. It's good that you have the urine sticks--are they the ones that test for both glucose and ketones?

I'd try anything I was sure Baby will eat and keep on eating so she can get her full insulin dose, since that's the important first step for you now.

Kathy

lab lover
03-11-2009, 01:39 PM
Thank you all for your support. Baby is eating but, not the amount she was eating before all this started. We hand feed her too get the food down we give her a cup and half of dry Solid Gold beef and barley, one turkey patty and sometimes a little chicken if she does not eat mostly half I know not too give her the insulin. It is just she used too eat it all up and now we have to beg her to eat. After her dose this am she has done nothing but, sleep no energy at all. I looked up what I was able to get from the vet. On 2/2 when I found out she had diabetes her glucose was 507 on her first curve with vetsulin 15 units she was 8:15-158,10:15-131,12:30-110,2:15-97,4:15 -106 we were thrilled everything was working out alright. The next two wks she started going down hill I don't have the report wasn't given to me but, at the end of the day she said she was around 200 I think. They were supposed to mail labs and report and never did. Now yesterday she did something different here it is I was told it was done on a machine, 3/10 9:13 am 351gl and she had a 15 unit shot of vetuslin at 7am and ate food.10:57am, 242 1:08pm 292 4:33pm 346. So as yu can see her glucose was high all day and that's when she decided too changed the insulin. This is all the labs I have and she has been there four times in a month and half.

As I said in my post before they are offended that I want the reports an don't want me to do anything but, feed her and give her shots and report problems too the doctor. I lived in a small town another vet would be an hour away in Knoxville, I don't no what to do I am hoping this insulin will help her. She has loss a total of 10 pounds since 2/1 nothing since then. I can't understand why the vetsulin was working and now it stopped she never explained that to me. The only thing she said is she is a big dog and I would have too give her more insulin and that would be costly. All she has done today is sleep doesn't want too go for a walk which she loves to do. It takes her a day to get over the anxiety from being in the vet's all not drinking, or going too the bathroom. I haven't slept much this wk either I wished for a miracle. Can I changed her food without hindering her and the insulin. Let me know. Thanks,

We Hope
03-11-2009, 01:59 PM
First things first. Change to whatever you can get Baby to eat happily so she can get her full doses of insulin. When you can't give her a full dose of insulin, that's hindering it in a way as it's like being prescribed medicine and not taking it as you were told to. You have a much harder time getting better that way and it's the same idea with the insulin.

While you probably will not see "perfect", there is a lot to be said for being consistent with the insulin and it can make up for some problems. What we're hoping to see here is that Baby starts eating something on her normal regular basis, whatever she will gladly eat right now, as it means her full 20 units will be able to come to her. This should make Baby feel better and then she won't be so difficult when it comes to eating her meals; after she's eating regularly and getting her full shots, then you can see about whether you want to make further food changes.

Once you get her eating and getting all of her 20 units on a regular basis, you should see some improvement. Baby will probably need some increases of insulin along the way before she's regulated, but a big step in the right direction now is to get her eating whatever she will take so she gets her full shots.

Many dogs do lose weight at first but when they start getting toward or at regulation, they are able to gain back the weight they lost at first.

You might want to explain to your vet that what you hope to do is get a home blood glucose meter like people with diabetes use and test Baby yourself so you have an idea how things are going. Not that you want to make big changes without her, but that you will feel you have more peace of mind if you can check her blood glucose at home whenever you feed it's needed.

As long as Baby has the terrible anxiety from being all day at the vet's for a curve, it would be great if you could learn how to do home testing. Just like with people who have diabetes, stress can either bring the bg's up or bring them low--it depends on the person and the dog we're talking about. While some tend to go low at vet visits, others tend to go high from them.

Again, the first big thing here is to get Baby eating and getting her full doses of insulin regularly.

Kathy

eyelostit
03-11-2009, 02:54 PM
Thank you all for your support. Baby is eating but, not the amount she was eating before all this started. We hand feed her too get the food down we give her a cup and half of dry Solid Gold beef and barley, one turkey patty and sometimes a little chicken if she does not eat mostly half I know not too give her the insulin. It is just she used too eat it all up and now we have to beg her to eat. After her dose this am she has done nothing but, sleep no energy at all. I looked up what I was able to get from the vet. On 2/2 when I found out she had diabetes her glucose was 507 on her first curve with vetsulin 15 units she was 8:15-158,10:15-131,12:30-110,2:15-97,4:15 -106 we were thrilled everything was working out alright. The next two wks she started going down hill I don't have the report wasn't given to me but, at the end of the day she said she was around 200 I think. They were supposed to mail labs and report and never did. Now yesterday she did something different here it is I was told it was done on a machine, 3/10 9:13 am 351gl and she had a 15 unit shot of vetuslin at 7am and ate food.10:57am, 242 1:08pm 292 4:33pm 346. So as yu can see her glucose was high all day and that's when she decided too changed the insulin. This is all the labs I have and she has been there four times in a month and half.

As I said in my post before they are offended that I want the reports an don't want me to do anything but, feed her and give her shots and report problems too the doctor. I lived in a small town another vet would be an hour away in Knoxville, I don't no what to do I am hoping this insulin will help her. She has loss a total of 10 pounds since 2/1 nothing since then. I can't understand why the vetsulin was working and now it stopped she never explained that to me. The only thing she said is she is a big dog and I would have too give her more insulin and that would be costly. All she has done today is sleep doesn't want too go for a walk which she loves to do. It takes her a day to get over the anxiety from being in the vet's all not drinking, or going too the bathroom. I haven't slept much this wk either I wished for a miracle. Can I changed her food without hindering her and the insulin. Let me know. Thanks,

That earlier curve looked good from 2/2 with the 15 units of Vetsulin, and now you are using 20 units of NPH correct? Advise:) I sent you a message at the huge site I found you.

lab lover
03-11-2009, 05:46 PM
First things first. Change to whatever you can get Baby to eat happily so she can get her full doses of insulin. When you can't give her a full dose of insulin, that's hindering it in a way as it's like being prescribed medicine and not taking it as you were told to. You have a much harder time getting better that way and it's the same idea with the insulin.

While you probably will not see "perfect", there is a lot to be said for being consistent with the insulin and it can make up for some problems. What we're hoping to see here is that Baby starts eating something on her normal regular basis, whatever she will gladly eat right now, as it means her full 20 units will be able to come to her. This should make Baby feel better and then she won't be so difficult when it comes to eating her meals; after she's eating regularly and getting her full shots, then you can see about whether you want to make further food changes.

Once you get her eating and getting all of her 20 units on a regular basis, you should see some improvement. Baby will probably need some increases of insulin along the way before she's regulated, but a big step in the right direction now is to get her eating whatever she will take so she gets her full shots.

Many dogs do lose weight at first but when they start getting toward or at regulation, they are able to gain back the weight they lost at first.

You might want to explain to your vet that what you hope to do is get a home blood glucose meter like people with diabetes use and test Baby yourself so you have an idea how things are going. Not that you want to make big changes without her, but that you will feel you have more peace of mind if you can check her blood glucose at home whenever you feed it's needed.

As long as Baby has the terrible anxiety from being all day at the vet's for a curve, it would be great if you could learn how to do home testing. Just like with people who have diabetes, stress can either bring the bg's up or bring them low--it depends on the person and the dog we're talking about. While some tend to go low at vet visits, others tend to go high from them.

Again, the first big thing here is to get Baby eating and getting her full doses of insulin regularly.

Kathy

Hi Kathy,

I did asked the vet yesterday could she be running so high because of the anxiety of being there from 7-7pm and she said NO! I also asked her if I could get a monitor and learn how to do it at home and that is when all my problems started with her she is feeling liked I don't trust her - I told her I would not changed anything but, at least I would know and have piece of mind how high glucose is running. They don't even know I order these sticks from Walgreens to checked the urine out I found out by calling I didn't need a prescription because the vet's office wouldn't give me one. She just ate all her food tonight and I gave her -her dosage of 20 units so I hope she is ok for tonight. I feel liked I will have to get another vet that will worked with me I have too many questions to asked - and I am not getting the results and ans from them liked I should. I am in a position here where I lived I don't know anyone, coming from Miami and being here for 2 yrs. I don't have any friends and haven't been able to make any living in the country (the neighborhood I lived in most of them keep to them selves but, are friendly if they see you outside) so I will have to research and see if there are Vets in Knoxville area that will give me a consultation visit first.

Is it ok to give her the shot between 30min-60min earlier if she is acting liked she is hungry and wants to eat earlier I did that tonight and I hope I made the right decision. Thank you I have learned so much already just in one day. If I can figured out how to put a picture of Baby on the website I will so you all can see her. Thanks again.

k9diabetes
03-11-2009, 05:57 PM
Congratulations on weathering the vet's suspicious attitude! That's a pretty insecure response from them! :o A vet should be THRILLED that you have questions and want to fully understand your dog's condition and treatment!!

Vets are often suspicious when you ask for the records but, first of all, you paid for everything they have done and you are entitled to a copy if that's what you want. Doesn't matter why you want it. Maybe you just like saving paper! This is a good start to training them to always provide you will a copy of all lab and curve results. My vet knows now that this is just a standard request from me and doesn't mean anything other than I keep good records about my pets.

I hope that you have some resources for finding another vet who will work with you because that makes a world of difference in the quality of care Baby will receive. I knew I loved my current vet when I went to pick up a cat after he had a dental and extraction done. Without my even asking, the vet set up a laptop with Gus' x-rays on screen and showed me tooth by tooth all of the problem areas he found and explained in detail what he did during the dental.

He doesn't do that because he thinks I don't trust him. He does that because he enjoys explaining things and learned early on that I expect explanations and details.

You are entitled to however much detail you want to know. To however many questions you want to ask. And they are obligated to provide you with information.

Natalie

k9diabetes
03-11-2009, 06:02 PM
Okay, so you've got NPH now and you got the U100 syringes to go with it, yes?

Walmart is the best place to by both. Ask for the Relion insulin - about $20-$25 a bottle.

Did Baby eat better back when she had that really nice curve on 15 units of Vetsulin?

If she did, then it's probably just the high blood sugar that's making her mopey and not want to eat. That's a very common reaction to high blood sugar.

Did she have any illnesses like a UTI after that curve?

I know it doesn't seem like it but her diagnosis is still pretty new and it's not unusual for things to take a while to get sorted out.

Natalie

lab lover
03-11-2009, 06:04 PM
If anyone lives in my area and can recommend a vet to help me please let me know I will be researching myself as Baby needs another curve on the 23th of March - right now I have no options and need the doctor I am using right now until I can find one that will worked with me. I feel bad because I really liked her and when Nico was sick with his arthritis she really gave me a lot of support but, with Baby I feel liked she is fighting me all the way with everything that I want too do for Baby. Thank you. Baby's Mom Ida

peggy0
03-11-2009, 06:08 PM
Ida, what vet do you go to there?

k9diabetes
03-11-2009, 06:16 PM
How far are you from Knoxville... you have the teaching hospital there.

lab lover
03-11-2009, 06:17 PM
Okay, so you've got NPH now and you got the U100 syringes to go with it, yes?

Walmart is the best place to by both. Ask for the Relion insulin - about $20-$25 a bottle.

Did Baby eat better back when she had that really nice curve on 15 units of Vetsulin?

If she did, then it's probably just the high blood sugar that's making her mopey and not want to eat. That's a very common reaction to high blood sugar.

Did she have any illnesses like a UTI after that curve?

I know it doesn't seem like it but her diagnosis is still pretty new and it's not unusual for things to take a while to get sorted out.

Natalie

I forgot to mentioned she has had two UTI 's since her diagnosed and also is constantly licking her area when she goes to urinate. The vet prescribed antibotics for the UTI and finally found the reason for the licking is an area irritated by her opening. I asked her could it be from burning when she urinates and too much sugar in her urine? I also found the infection by constantly bringing in her urine every week and it finally showed some blood in it. The insulin I am using is from Walmart but, the generic one called Relion Novu-N, Reli On syringes 0.3cc -29 gauge. It says on the box of syringes for U100. I have to keep checking my new supplies to give you all the correct insulin and syringe - but, everything is so new I get confused. She seems to be doing much better tonight and it is only an hour since I gave her her shot. I hope we have a good night. Ida

k9diabetes
03-11-2009, 06:19 PM
The UTIs will drive up the blood sugar so that could be why you had that really nice curve and then higher numbers.

Is the UTI gone now?

lab lover
03-11-2009, 06:25 PM
How far are you from Knoxville... you have the teaching hospital there.

I called them last week to asked what they do there and if they can helped with questioned I needed too be ans and they said I would need a referral from a vet to go the vet there and also everything is confidential about what they do there. I wonder about that - what kind of ans is that?

lab lover
03-11-2009, 06:27 PM
The UTIs will drive up the blood sugar so that could be why you had that really nice curve and then higher numbers.

Is the UTI gone now?


So far the UTI is gone and she has stopped licking herself after she goes. Does this mean they can get a lot of UTI's.

lab lover
03-11-2009, 06:38 PM
I just wanted to let everyone know I was able to submit a picture of Baby in my profile if you want too checked her out. This was taken last yr in Sept. I don't know how to submit one on the board yet so everyone can see her. Will try too tomorrow. thanks for all the info tonight. Baby appreciates it.

peggy0
03-11-2009, 06:56 PM
She's adorable!!

Cara's Mom
03-11-2009, 07:06 PM
You have a very pretty lady there!!

eyelostit
03-11-2009, 08:13 PM
Baby is beautiful !! :)

BaileyBear
03-11-2009, 11:03 PM
She's a real cutie pie! :D

lab lover
03-12-2009, 09:26 AM
First of all if she's in the 400's, she's feeling like this because her bg's are so high.

You vet is correct about not giving all the insulin if Baby does eat. Many times they don't want to eat because they have high blood glucose.

For right now, I would say the first step here is to get Baby to eat something and not worry about whether it's exactly right for diabetes or not. What you need to do is to get her eating something so that she can get the full dose of prescribed insulin. Once you can get her eating regularly and getting her full dose of insulin regularly, then you can worry about doing the "fine tuning" work of getting her regulated. As things are now, without her eating, you can't give her all of the insulin, and that isn't a step in the regulation direction.

It can take 3-7 days or possibly longer before you see the full effect of a change in an insulin dose, depending on the dog. Some respond to the change quicker than others. But remember that it will be tough to see any positive changes until you get Baby eating again and getting all of her insulin. When you can get to that point, then you will most likely see those positive results.

Before you can do a curve at home, you need to get a blood glucose meter and learn how to test Baby's blood. It's good that you have the urine sticks--are they the ones that test for both glucose and ketones?

I'd try anything I was sure Baby will eat and keep on eating so she can get her full insulin dose, since that's the important first step for you now.

Kathy

I'm going to Walgreens today they have the clinistix stick and ketones so I am buying them I know one checks the sugar but, not sure about the other one will be back on after I get them at least I can tell how much glucose she has right? I'll be back on later.

Thanks for checking Baby's picture she doesn't looked as good right now since she got sick I will be posting another one soon. Hopefully she can get regulated soon and I can find a new vet. Thanks,

We Hope
03-12-2009, 09:34 AM
The other one, which is probably ketostix, checks for ketones in the urine which can be produced if bg's are high for a while. Getting a positive ketone reading means contacting your vet for advice; seeing more than a trace of them means emergency care is needed.

Ketodiastix check for both glucose and ketones all in one strip. You'll be able to check Baby's glucose with what Walgreen's has for you for sure--and possibly check for ketones too.

Let us know if you're having problems with adding Baby's picture to your posts as an avitar and we'll talk you through how to do that! ;)

Kathy

Margaret Boyle
03-12-2009, 03:10 PM
I'm going to Walgreens today they have the clinistix stick and ketones so I am buying them I know one checks the sugar but, not sure about the other one will be back on after I get them at least I can tell how much glucose she has right? I'll be back on later.

Thanks for checking Baby's picture she doesn't looked as good right now since she got sick I will be posting another one soon. Hopefully she can get regulated soon and I can find a new vet. Thanks,



Hi Lab lover,
If you are going to urine test please buy KetoDiastix as they test both glucose and ketones and it would be cheaper for you rather than buy two different testing strips and ketones are very important. Thought I would just post this, nice to meet you and welcome.

Kind regards

lab lover
03-12-2009, 05:57 PM
The other one, which is probably ketostix, checks for ketones in the urine which can be produced if bg's are high for a while. Getting a positive ketone reading means contacting your vet for advice; seeing more than a trace of them means emergency care is needed.

Ketodiastix check for both glucose and ketones all in one strip. You'll be able to check Baby's glucose with what Walgreen's has for you for sure--and possibly check for ketones too.

Let us know if you're having problems with adding Baby's picture to your posts as an avitar and we'll talk you through how to do that! ;)

Kathy

They didn't get in the glucose ones so I bought the Keto-Diastix and tried it today I hope I did it right. It said in the directions to insert stick in urine wait 15 seconds for ketone and 30 seconds for glucose - her ketone was neg-brown, and glucose was color of neg with a little green. Since she started a new insulin should I do this every day and how many times? I know about ketone if it is high to get her to vet's immediately but, what is a normal glucose for her now. 100-200?

lab lover
03-12-2009, 05:59 PM
Hi Lab lover,
If you are going to urine test please buy KetoDiastix as they test both glucose and ketones and it would be cheaper for you rather than buy two different testing strips and ketones are very important. Thought I would just post this, nice to meet you and welcome.

Kind regards


Nice to meet you Margaret I did just that today. Now I need to know if I am doing it correctly. Ida/Baby

We Hope
03-12-2009, 06:15 PM
Ida,

Let's see if these links help you any, OK?

http://k9diabetes.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6111&postcount=13

http://k9diabetes.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4344&postcount=15

And then there's the lowdown from our international group of experts! :D

http://k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=535

HTH!

Kathy

lab lover
03-12-2009, 06:46 PM
Just wanted to let everyone know my vet called me today to see how Baby was doing on the new insulin. I was shocked. She also said she realized when I started bringing my dogs to their clinic I asked for all labs reports, and she said that would not be a problem. So I guess she had second thoughts or just a bad day Wed. I still am going too checked on other vet's in my area or near Knoxville I just don't feel comfortable after what we went through Wed. Also, if I cannot find another vet in time I will need to take Baby on the 24th ,for a Curve which I hate because she gets so stressed out staying there so long and my blood pressure goes up. Anyways, she is calling me on Monday to go over different foods since Baby will picks at her dry food and I hate to keep changing her I will never get her regulated, so if chicken, turkey and green beans is what she eats the most. at least we get that down her for her shots. I just need to get more fiber in her any suggestions? I also, did the strip test on urine and keyston -please let me know if I did it right. Thanks, everyone at least I slept last night and Baby was much better in evening and today. Baby's mom -Ida:)

rhodesian46
03-12-2009, 07:22 PM
I just wanted to welcome you and Baby. My eyebrows went up when I read abour your butt face vet. You have every right to ask for copies of her records. You should always have a file for Baby in case of an emergency. THat goes for all test results,dr notes etc. ALso keep records of her weight. I kept a daily log for Pebbles and noted how she ate,her bg's,poop and attitude. A vet should never be hesitant about your questions ,home testing or records Personally that would make me run to another vet.

Pebbles was seen by a vet school Yes you need a referral. Your vet should agree to do this It is not a matter of distrust It is a matter of wanting beeter care for your dog.

Home testing is easy once you get the hang of it. With a big dog they generally have callouses on their elbow: a prime spot to get blood. I used the One Touch Ultra 2 Whichever one you chose you will have to compare it with your vets lab. Wecal certainly help you with this. BUt first comes first. Baby will be fine as long as you take control of her health which I know you will. Patience is the key

peggy0
03-12-2009, 07:54 PM
Butt face vet :) gotta love it. Its the best laugh I've had all week and so appropriate.

peggy0
03-12-2009, 07:58 PM
You can add barley or oatmeal for fiber Ida, and I agree right now whatever she will eat so she gets her shots. Keep looking for a vet. I googled your area and there are many in the Maryville area.

We Hope
03-12-2009, 08:42 PM
They didn't get in the glucose ones so I bought the Keto-Diastix and tried it today I hope I did it right. It said in the directions to insert stick in urine wait 15 seconds for ketone and 30 seconds for glucose - her ketone was neg-brown, and glucose was color of neg with a little green. Since she started a new insulin should I do this every day and how many times? I know about ketone if it is high to get her to vet's immediately but, what is a normal glucose for her now. 100-200?

Ida,

According to the strip test, Baby is doing VERY well with the glucose and no ketones! :)

http://i37.tinypic.com/34hdmqr.jpg
Ketodiastix color codes--you can see you sure did it right!

For urine testing, I'd suggest that you follow the Vetsulin three times a day protocol:

http://www.vetsulin.com/vet/Monitoring_Urine.aspx

"Have pet owner test urine three times a day: before the first meal (test 1), before the second meal (test 2), and late in the evening (test 3)."

The link has a table you can read directly under that.

But Baby's going to need to go to someone for a curve because it's not the best policy to make any insulin adjustments on the basis of urine testing alone. Urine tests show you what the level of glucose in the blood was 2+ hours ago, while testing blood shows you how much glucose is there right now.

Taking the blood tests every 2 hours as they do for a curve will also tell you if Baby has any high or low spots and exactly how low or high they might be.

When glucose gets over what's called the renal threshold of 180 mg/dl and stays there for a period of time, that means the glucose that's in the blood spills over into the urine and that's how you are able to measure it. Urine glucose testing strips don't measure anything below this renal threshold because until then, there's nothing to measure. So all you will know from getting a negative urine glucose test is that Baby is somewhere under 180; it can't tell you if she is too low. Testing blood can do that.

This is why so many people with diabetic pets learn how to use a blood glucose meter and do the testing at home for them.

You're doing just great with Baby and I know you do have an interest in learning how to test her blood yourself. Also know this has all been a lot "on your plate".

When you feel you're ready, you can think about getting a meter at the drug store like people with diabetes use to test Baby's blood. The AlphaTrak for animals is very expensive--both meter and strips. Many of our folks here are using "people" meters because of that and they will be glad to tell you what ones they use, how they like them.

Whether you think so or not, I think you've taken care of a LOT of business since your first post! :)

Kathy

eyelostit
03-12-2009, 09:57 PM
You sure have, give yourself a pat on the back :)

You could give the oatmeal a try, this worked for Niki

lab lover
03-13-2009, 12:33 PM
An update my vet called us at 7:00am to see how Baby was doing and if she was eating. She knew her shot was due at 7:am. When she called the other day we spoke about her food. She eats Solid Gold Beef and Barley which she doesn't really liked but, with chicken and turkey we get down her. Now she wants to changed to Science Diet Light any kind when I looked it up it has mostly carborhadryates, corn meal. She said too feed her 1and half cans 2 times a day. No dry only a little in afternoon since she does not liked dry food. When I spoke to the Feed store which is up on evey dog food there is she could not understand giving her so much carborhdryates. I also asked my vet to do a glucose blood test on her on Monday to see how she is doing since we changed the insulin and dose I am worried she said no need too worry she is dong well and doesn't need too be checked until her curve, I guess because we told her she is acting ok except for energy level there is a little change in improvement. I don't know if I should changed her to this food , the feed store recommends no and I know Baby if the dog food is blend which it is she won't eat it. I would like to know what everyone is feeding their dogs so I can decide on what to do. She weighs 95 lbs. and taking NHP 20cc/units (not sure how yu word it yet) All I know is my husband and I are stressed all day waiting for something to happened we are scared and nervous. Baby Mom Ida

Also, what blood glucose monitor is the easiest one for me?

lab lover
03-13-2009, 01:02 PM
I just wanted to welcome you and Baby. My eyebrows went up when I read abour your butt face vet. You have every right to ask for copies of her records. You should always have a file for Baby in case of an emergency. THat goes for all test results,dr notes etc. ALso keep records of her weight. I kept a daily log for Pebbles and noted how she ate,her bg's,poop and attitude. A vet should never be hesitant about your questions ,home testing or records Personally that would make me run to another vet.

Pebbles was seen by a vet school Yes you need a referral. Your vet should agree to do this It is not a matter of distrust It is a matter of wanting beeter care for your dog.

Home testing is easy once you get the hang of it. With a big dog they generally have callouses on their elbow: a prime spot to get blood. I used the One Touch Ultra 2 Whichever one you chose you will have to compare it with your vets lab. Wecal certainly help you with this. BUt first comes first. Baby will be fine as long as you take control of her health which I know you will. Patience is the key


Thank you for thinking about Baby I am so scare to do the home testing since I cannot called my vet she is against me doing anything at home. I know I have to get another vet but, I really want to asked questions and research before I make the changed or I could be back in the same situation. I lived in a small country area the knoxville area has lot's of vets an hour away but, hard too make a decision with out a reccomendation from someone. Right now the food is worrying me my husband says leave her on what she is eating till we get a new vet - she is eating (when we hand feed her) spoiled or just not feeling good I don't know but, we will do anything not too lose her - we are in mid sixties and this is our Baby. Ida

Margaret Boyle
03-13-2009, 01:23 PM
Hi Ida,
I am glad you got your Keto-diastix you will soon get into the way of it (read Ketones at 15 seconds) then another 15 seconds for your glucose (30 seconds in total) from start.
Ida you are in the same age group as me I am 65. I have just started blood testing but you will get all the support you need from this group just try and relax dont get stressed out in a few weeks you will be surprised at how much you have learned. I cannot help you with food as Lucy is not regulated yet.

k9diabetes
03-13-2009, 05:01 PM
Check out this thread... it is a poll of what folks are feeding their dogs, along with the insulin they use. I think you'll find there is quite a variety...

http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240

Fishslayer
03-13-2009, 05:18 PM
I am feeding Lucy a mix of Kahoots kibble (local feed store) and Science Diet Light kibble. The "normal" food is for the extra fat as we are trying to get a bit more weight on her. I am actually backing off the "normal" food as Lucy is looking very healthy with only a 2# weight gain (30# to 32#) since we got her.

I was also shocked when I read the ingredients list on the Science Diet. Everything I would NOT feed my other dogs is on it. As I understand it, though, that is what diabetic dogs need.

Lucy seems to be thriving on it. Her coat is shiny & her energy level gets better each day. Thankfully, she is a real chow hound & getting her to eat has NOT been a problem. Keeping her out of the cat food...THAT'S another story...:rolleyes:

One note. Even with my other dogs I make any diet change gradually. When changing food I mix 50/50 old with new for a week or so. Sudden changes in diet can upset even healthy dogs.

I use the One Touch Ultra II meter. When Lucy had her spay I had them test it and found it is 41 points low at around 200.

I also use the Ketodiastix every other day or so. It gives me an idea of what her BG has been doing through the night and keeps an eye out for Ketones.

We also just changed to NPH. WAY cheaper, seems to regulate Lucy as well or better than Vetsulin, and I can get it anywhere.

You're doing great! Things will get easier as you go. Barring other problems, once you get the home testing down your vet bills should drop dramatically.

Best,

Rick

BestBuddy
03-13-2009, 06:35 PM
I also know there are better foods than Science Diet BUT Buddy ate it for the last 6 years and did really well on it. He ate a mixture of canned and kibble and we used the Light for about 3 years and then changed to the Mature/Senior. Every now and then I would get it into my head that I should be feeding a "better" food and each time his BG would jump around and it just didn't work. I added a spoon of Benefiber to each meal to add some more fiber, don't know if he needed it or if it helped but I did it anyway.

So sometimes the best food for your dog isn't classed as the best but if you find one that works well my opinion is to go with it.

Jenny

janspack
03-14-2009, 05:16 AM
So sometimes the best food for your dog isn't classed as the best but if you find one that works well my opinion is to go with it.

Jenny

I agree with that 100%. I'm a convertee to raw feeding I'm afraid and have found all my cats (25 at the moment until I sell some kittens!!) do brilliantly on it and so I changed the dogs to raw as well. I read a book about dry foods - written by a vet who defected from a very well known feed manufacturers ;)) and I realised what sense she was writing. She was talking about cats in the main (they are obligatory carnivores - can't properly digest anything except meat, bone, fur, skin etc) but it makes sense with dogs too.

Dazzle has stayed on raw food with the absolute agreement of the vets and is doing well from a weight point of view considering she is also suffering from EPI. They all also LOVE it and theres nothing nicer than watching them consuming half a chicken carcase with relish. At I'm a vegetarian and have been for well over 20 years. :D I even manage to feed my cats on baby chicks and mice (I hasten to add I buy them frozen!).

I know this isn't everybody's cup of tea and it took many years of reading and thinking about it before I was convinced. I'd never go back to dry food now but if necessary, I would feed a good quality tinned. If you look at the ingredients on many tinned foods though there is still only about 4% meat :rolleyes: and the rest is grain and cereals. Not exactly natural for any animal really is it.

lab lover
03-14-2009, 08:53 AM
Check out this thread... it is a poll of what folks are feeding their dogs, along with the insulin they use. I think you'll find there is quite a variety...

http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240

Thanks for the thread I am going to get a glucose monitor today to try it out either at Walmart or Walgreens looks liked everyone uses Relion or light touch. What is the difference in points with the human and pet one? Baby ate good last night this morning she didn't eat all her food. Have a consultation with a new vet on Tues and will monitor with me and see if I am doing it right. She said she will worked with me on anything I need reg labs, food, insulin, etc. so I hope this works out I will feel a lot better. Sorry I posted in the wrong forum I was told to look for Lab Lover and click under my name too post - when I tried to type a message it said to click on one the reply's so that's what I did. Sometimes I feel so stupid with these forums and how to managed them - let me know if this is right. Should I be under the discussions group or the K9 diabetes.com one.

peggy0
03-14-2009, 10:03 AM
You're in the right place!! Congratulations on the new vet. Sounds like they are interested. You should take your monitor with you to the vet and they can compare the monitor with theirs. Then you'll know :) They vary. I have an ultra touch as well as an alphatrak which is made for dogs. My ultra touch is 10 to 40 points lower depending on the BG reading. The lower Forbins BG is, the closer they match. Take it to the vet and they will tell you. Good luck.

k9diabetes
03-14-2009, 05:53 PM
You're doing a lovely job posting here! I'm looking forward to hearing how the vet and the home testing go!

Natalie

eyelostit
03-15-2009, 01:08 AM
:) I think you are doing terrific, you are just learning all of this, you posted fine, just look for Lab Lover and click on that and hit the reply, if you do something wrong we will move it in the right place.

I'm anxious to hear how your testing goes once you get started, if it don't work out the first time, try a bit later, don't get frustrated.

I'm sure you'll get the hang of all of this, you are one strong lady !!!!

Take Care
Dolly ;)

ladysmom06
03-15-2009, 06:26 AM
Hi Ida,

Hi and welcome to you and Baby.

I'm anxious to hear how your testing goes once you get started, if it don't work out the first time, try a bit later, don't get frustrated.

I'm sure you'll get the hang of all of this, you are one strong lady !!!!


I agree with Dolly. Your doing a great job:D:D. Hugs to you and Baby.

Luv,
Lynne and Lady

Margaret Boyle
03-15-2009, 09:01 AM
Thanks for the thread I am going to get a glucose monitor today to try it out either at Walmart or Walgreens looks liked everyone uses Relion or light touch. What is the difference in points with the human and pet one? Baby ate good last night this morning she didn't eat all her food. Have a consultation with a new vet on Tues and will monitor with me and see if I am doing it right. She said she will worked with me on anything I need reg labs, food, insulin, etc. so I hope this works out I will feel a lot better. Sorry I posted in the wrong forum I was told to look for Lab Lover and click under my name too post - when I tried to type a message it said to click on one the reply's so that's what I did. Sometimes I feel so stupid with these forums and how to managed them - let me know if this is right. Should I be under the discussions group or the K9 diabetes.com one.

Good for you Ida,
I know you will be fine with the blood testing I was a nervous wreck as well
but I just said to myself "Go for it Margaret" everyone will keep you right good luck

lab lover
03-15-2009, 10:36 AM
Just wanted to say "Hi" and welcome you. :)

I know you are feeling very overwhelmed right now. I have a lab mix who was also diagnosed at 7, just this past January. I burst into tears that first night. But than I did just what you are doing now...started searching for more information and found my way here. ;)

Bailey is on Humulin N (the NPH that Natalie just mentioned) and it is much more affordable, not only per vial, but also the fact that you get more doses out of a vial. He is on 26 units (twice a day) and a vial will last us 19 days - there are 1000 units in a vial of NPH. Don't let your vet intimidate you into thinking there are not other viable options. Talk to him again and be frank about the situation. If this is not, and can not be, a good working relationship, move on to another vet. Is there more than one vet at the office? Sometimes just switching to a different doctor within the same practice can make a big difference. Our vet practice has 3 vets, but I have a much better partnership with one of them, so I stick with him.

Home blood glucose monitoring is something that is VERY doable and most of the people you meet on this message board are home testing their dogs. I don't know how much your current vet charges for curves, but it costs about $100 at our vet. I took Bailey for one curve in the beginning of his treatment and have been doing the rest at home ever since. That alone has saved us $100's of dollars.

Take a look at the monitors available at your local pharmacy and the cost of strips for each one. You can get many monitors for free or very inexpensive, but it's the strips that will end up costing you the most money. Walmart has an inexpensive one under their Relion name and the test strips are also very reasonable. I have a "TrueTrack" monitor that is kind of a generic monitor available under many pharmacy names - mine is Walgreen's version and I can get a box of 100 tests strips (2 containers in each box) for under $50. Each box has also come with a $5 off coupon for the next box. That makes my test strips under .45 cents a strip. If I do a curve on my dog, I use about 8 strips that day, at a total cost to me of less than $3.60 - MUCH cheaper than the vet. ;)

If you can post the information that Natalie requested, the very knowledgeable people here will have a better understanding of where your dog is currently and how they can help you get her back to good health. Not only will it help you to help Baby, but it will make you feel SO much better once you understand everything that's going on and what your options are for you and Baby...and your pocketbook.

Deep breath...I promise it gets much better. :)

I've been meaning to asked about Bailey and her food do you weigh the food or go by a measuring cup. Right now Baby eats Beef and Barley Solid Gold plus chicken, green beans, sometimes brrocclie. Last night she ate good this morn she didn't want too eat - she doesn't like the dry food so as soon as we see the new vet on Tues I will asked what we can changed her too. I did give her some cottage cheese and she liked it. I am not up on carborhydrates so worried eveytime I give her something different. The vets keep saying not too much carborhydrates but, she is also having hard time with her stools (constipation) Your dog is about the closest in weight my lab is 95 it seems everyone else has a small dog. So I worried am I feeding too much or not enought. 1-1/2 c dry food, string beans 1/2 c, turkey 1 cup twice a day. sometimes cottage cheese or alternate with the broccoli. I am going to read all info on relon monitor today and try it. I almost bought an ultra one at Walgreens seem a little better than the Walmart brand. Which one is easy to do for newcomers> Also, when is the best time before meals or after meals since we feed her 7 am that will be hard. Can I just try it during the afternoon. Also, if I see her getting low in energy does it messed up the insulin to feed her just a little turkey in afternoon. So many questions I have I hope this new vet helps me. Also, Dolly as been such a big helped too me. Just wonder about Bailey since he's close in weight.

k9diabetes
03-15-2009, 10:49 AM
Some weigh and some measure. I always just measured as I didn't vary Chris' diet much. Whenever I made a food change, I calculated the calories of his old and new diet and made sure I was feeding an amount that provided the same number of calories. If the calorie information isn't on the bag, nearly all the major dog food brands have websites that provide the content, calories, and percent of protein, fiber, and fat. They don't usually specify carbs.

When you're first learning to test, do it at a time when you can be relaxed and just get the technique down at first. Once you get going, then you can start to test premeal and injection and at other times, plus can do a curve. But the important thing for now is to just get good at doing it.

I recommend an Accucheck SoftClix lancing device - it's the quietest and has seemed to work well for a lot of people. Any meter you buy will come with a lancing device but I found many of those, including the one that comes with OneTouch, to be too noisy. I always stuck with the SoftClix for lancing but used the OneTouch Ultra meter.

As a snack, a little turkey is a good choice but while you're getting her regulated it's best to avoid food of any kind between meals. Brocolli is a good snack as it has essentially no calories so doesn't drive up the blood sugar.

Talk with the vet about foods... definitely will need something Baby will eat! Getting her blood sugar down should help improve her appetite.

Natalie

BaileyBear
03-15-2009, 04:24 PM
Hi Ida -

With Bailey I've been measuring everything (measuring cups - I'm not patient enough to weigh everything, lol) since we are still working on consistent regulation. He was a tough one in the beginning, so I kept track of everything to try and figure out what was working and what wasn't.

Bailey is on a prescription dry food right now - Purina DCO. It has lots of carbs, but they are supposedly more complex carbs and not as quickly digested. He was originally on 4 1/8 cups a day, divided into 2 meals. But he was getting huge (up to 300 points) increases in his BG numbers after meals. As the rest of his numbers came down, but the post meal spikes continued, I decided to try adding protein and veggies to see if it would control the spikes a bit.

I went with boneless, skinless chicken breast and it worked. I replaced a little over 1/2 a cup of his dry with about a cup of chicken. The spikes dropped considerably, but it was also keeping his overall numbers higher throughout the day - so he had a flatter curve (yay!), but he was running higher than we wanted him. I posted about it in Bailey's thread and some advised to pull back on the chicken. He is down to a bit over 1/2 a cup of chicken and his overall numbers are down. Today I was out of chicken and hadn't been able to get to the store when I'd planned, so I decided to give him an egg. I scrambled it and mixed it in with his kibble. He loved that...but he pretty much loves everything! We are very close to where we want him long term. :cool:

I also add veggies to his kibble. Bailey has a particular fondness (more like an addiction) to cucumbers, so I often use those. They're a "0" on the glycemic index so the vet said he could continue to have unlimited amounts of them, as long as he continues to have an appetite for his kibble too. But I also use whatever I have in the veggie bin that's low glycemic. For instance, he goes nuts for the crunchy ribs of romaine lettuce. He's an odd little fuzzball. :rolleyes:

Bailey has always been very food motivated. He loves everything and I had never seen him walk away from a bowl of food. But in the beginning of this adventure, when his numbers were running high and bouncing around a lot, he turned down food for the first time in the 7 years we've had him. I had to resort to hand feeding, just like you and Baby. I think they just feel so crummy until they reach better numbers with some consistency that it kills their appetite. Plus, they're tired and just plain out of it. I noticed it was worse in the morning and I've read many posts on this board that it's pretty common with diabetic dogs. But once we started reaching more desirable numbers, his appetite came back. We were fortunate that he loved the new food. I wouldn't be surprised if Baby's appetite comes back when she reaches better regulation. :)

Bailey hasn't had any constipation problems and I think the additional veggies help and the Purina DCO seems to bulk up his stool. When we first switched to it, we couldn't believe how many times a day he was going. I would be outside with him picking up what he just did, just to turn around and see him doing it a second time...and then a third, lol! That was before I even added the veggies! But it settled down pretty quickly and now he's consistently going 3 times a day.

Like Natalie said, I wouldn't give Baby between meal snacks right now. Once you start testing her at home consistently, you'll want to look for patterns of ups and downs in her blood sugar. It will make that much harder if she has a snack thrown in here and there. Plus, you want her appetite to be at it's best for her consistent meals. I promise they get used to it quickly. Bailey used to be a "free feeder", so he was used to having dry food available to him 24/7. But I was surprised how quickly he adjusted to twice a day feeding, 12 hours apart. Once she's regulated, then you'll be able to try treats again and you'll know exactly how her body is handling them since you'll be able to compare her BG numbers from before snack/treats.

I know the testing can be inconvenient and difficult to fit into a schedule, but once you get used to it, it can be done in just seconds. For it to make a big difference and give you the information you need, you'll need to do it at specific times. Some of the most important numbers you'll want are right before Baby's 2 meals and then about 2 hours after each meal. Those numbers will help you figure out how low she goes once her stomach is empty and how high she goes after she has digested a meal. It will also eventually show you how long her insulin is lasting and help you and the vet fine tune her dose. I keep everything, including his BG numbers, in a small spiral notebook. Once every week or 2, I fax the info or drop it off at our vets. That's been invaluable in keeping our vet up-to-date, allowed the vet to see what Bailey's patterns are, and established a good working relationship between the vet and I since he knows I'm on top of things. It also saves money since he doesn't feel the need for me to constantly bring Bailey in for testing since he has the information he needs and can call me by phone to discuss.

With Bailey I also test him before and after walks or any other activity that gets him excited, like car rides. Doing this has shown us that Bailey drops after activity/excitement - up to 100+ points. That was very important info for us to have now that he is closer to regulation. Now we know if he goes for a car ride and tests low before we leave, that he needs carbs before we go to prevent a hypo while we are out. It makes me feel so much better knowing there are things we can do to manipulate his BG numbers into a safer range in certain circumstances. :)

Wow - long post! :o Sorry...I have a serious case of rambling today. Maybe I need to hire an editor. :p

lab lover
03-16-2009, 06:09 PM
Thanks so much Erin for all the info we go too the new vet tomorr I have so many questions and want to get her on the right food. I have written down everything I need to asked her so hopefully she will worked out for us. I did buy the Relon monitor from Walmart yesterday I try and got one reading in the pm of 200 so plus adding 40 it s/b 240. This was just too see if I could do it. Today I tried and every time I would used the lancet I could not get any blood. The lancet on it is not that powerful on her elbows I even tried without using it and just poking with the needle (didn't worked) finally at 7:30 pm I tried again with the lancet and it worked it read 109 that would be one hour after the shot. So I would add 40 points to that for a correct reading (right)if that is correct I think that is a good reading for a hour after feeding. I'll be back in touch tomorr after the appt, Ida

peggy0
03-16-2009, 06:21 PM
Good luck Ida! Looks like baby's readings are ok!!!

BaileyBear
03-16-2009, 06:23 PM
I'm glad you've had some success in testing Baby with the new monitor - good for you! It sounds like you are well prepared for the vet appointment tomorrow. I hope you have a much better experience with the new vet. Good luck and let us know how it goes. :)

We Hope
03-16-2009, 06:43 PM
Thanks so much Erin for all the info we go too the new vet tomorr I have so many questions and want to get her on the right food. I have written down everything I need to asked her so hopefully she will worked out for us. I did buy the Relon monitor from Walmart yesterday I try and got one reading in the pm of 200 so plus adding 40 it s/b 240. This was just too see if I could do it. Today I tried and every time I would used the lancet I could not get any blood. The lancet on it is not that powerful on her elbows I even tried without using it and just poking with the needle (didn't worked) finally at 7:30 pm I tried again with the lancet and it worked it read 109 that would be one hour after the shot. So I would add 40 points to that for a correct reading (right)if that is correct I think that is a good reading for a hour after feeding. I'll be back in touch tomorr after the appt, Ida

Ida,

Where are you getting the add 40 points to the reading from? Unless you have taken the meter to a vet visit and had your vet put a drop of blood from a blood glucose draw he/she is going to test with the more sensitive equipment, you really shouldn't be adding any points to it.

Until you compare that meter with what the vet's testing says, you don't know how much lower or higher your home meter is. After you get the chance to compare it with the same blood sample your vet's testing, then you will know how much difference there is between the home meter you have and the vet's equipment.

Kathy

CarolW
03-16-2009, 08:16 PM
Ida - I just read your entire thread. You are doing REALLY well; keep up the good work! I'm looking forward to your report after you see the new vet tomorrow!

P.S. I'm older than you are; haha!

Love and hugs to you and Baby,
Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:16:29 (PDT)

eyelostit
03-16-2009, 08:26 PM
Hi Ida :)

Let us know how it goes tommorrow, good luck with testing don't get too frustrated, it'll take some time, you will be able to do it, promise !!

Dolly

eyelostit
03-17-2009, 09:22 PM
Baby's curve 3-10-09 per Ida

9:13 am 351
10:57 242
1:08 292
4:33 346

Don't see the one for in between 1:30 and 4:33.

k9diabetes
03-18-2009, 08:33 PM
Hi Ida,

I got a copy of Baby's blood work from October 2008 and February 2009 via Dolly. Rather than post the whole thing, I thought I would just include the values of interest:

Chem panel 10.16.2008
Normal glucose (95)
Normal T4
High AlkP - 252, Normal = 5-131

Urinalysis 10.23.2008
2+ protein in the urine.
Moderatet amorphous phosphate

Diagnosed with diabetes 02.01.09

Chem panel 02.02.2009
Glucose very high - 507
High AlkP, basically the same as October - 248

AST is low but just barely
Platelet count is high but just barely
Probably neither are significant.

T4 is slightly low but this is not the sensitive test so I wouldn't rely on this number. Chris had similar results and came out fine on the better test.

Urinalysis 02.02.2009
Again 2+ protein

Glucose is high but that's expected with the blood sugar.
_____________________

Looks like there are two ongoing concerns, neither of which seems to have changed at all from October to February - the elevated AlkP and the protein in the urine.

k9diabetes
03-18-2009, 08:39 PM
Congratulations on doing a curve Ida!! Bet a few weeks ago you would never have thought you'd be doing your own curve at home. That's a huge step forward!

And her blood sugar doesn't look too bad either.

It sounds like she just doesn't like her food. Hope you can find something she likes better! Then you won't have to fight that battle.

Natalie

lab lover
03-19-2009, 02:09 PM
Finally going to try posting - yesterday I tried twice and when I submitted it - it wouldn't go through. First, I want to say thanks to everyone for the support you all are giving me and Dolly for all my phone calls. The vet was very nice and is willing too worked with me testing Baby at home. She is going thru all her lab and also, wonder why their never brought up about her protein level being high all the time. She is doing a complete test on her thyroid and as of this morn I don't have the results. I kept asking my old vet to test her and she always would do the one test on her. This vet is taking the time to take my calls and also checking with UT Vet School for nutrition advice since Baby is such a picky eater. We have her still on 1 and half cup of dry twice a day, 1 cup of chicken, no vetg she will not eat them spits them out. I also pick up a can of DDVenison at the Vet and we are giving her 1/4 cup of that too. her weight is 95 lbs.

On the 17 - vet's visit I checked my monitor Reilon with the vet doing a glucose on her Alpha Track ,there is 100 points difference in readings. I have decided to get a Alpha Track so I will be sure the readings I am giving her are correct. Her monitor showed 341 and mine showed 208. So she told me too always add at least 100 points to my readings. That evening I checked Baby before she ate and it read 403.

Yesterday I checked her urine with a dip stick and it read 500 -this was before I brought it up to the vet because she wanted too see if she has a UTI and she did - also traces of blood. She is on antibotics 2 x a day now.

On 3/18 7:45am my monitor before food it was 255
3/18 9:45am my monitor after food it was221
3/18 1:45pm my monitor -149
3/18 5:30pm my monitor -243
3/18 7:07pm my monitor 447 we fed her at 7:30 pm with shot of 20 units. This is without adding 100 points to her readings.

Today I am trying a curve so far the readings are:

7:30am 256 before shot and food
10:30am 132
1:00pm 94
3:00 pm 83 So when I called the vet on the lower readings she said I needed to add 100 points to every reading to get the correct range.

So far first two would be higher and last two should be good if I am understanding this the way she wants me too read the monitor. this is why I need the pet one it is too confusing for me.

I will do it again at 5 and 7 then feed her and do it after feeding and shot.

We are really having a hard time with getting enough blood from her elbow pads I think we will be shaving an area above her tail - my husband finally decided - he's been helping me.


I just hoped I am doing this reading right because if it was really low like 83 I am sure I would see signs of distress and she doesn't showed it she seems better too me. I would like everyone's opinon on her unit dose the vet feels after we get her to eat good she would liked to lower the food cup to one cup twice a day and increase insulin but, she said she might do this - this worries me she will be getting too much insulin and not enough food. I have been checking the dogs on the board their insulin dosage and food and the ones near Baby size are on a lower dose of insulin and a little more food. She feels Baby should weight 85 lbs and this would helped the Diabetes

Also, I asked her when she drew the blood in her office it was from a syringe because she also need blood for the thyroid I did it with a lancet so I wonder would this difference in blood also effect the level. This morn she called and said it did not make a difference. I know doing it with a lancet is capillary blood. Any info would be appreciated. At least I feel comfortable with her and I think it will just take time to get Baby regulated and I have too have patience and calm down. these low's and high's make me nervous. her office is up to date, really clean and a big lab - plus more is done there than the other office and also she does everything in front of me not take Baby behind closed doors. So wished me luck I pray every night I get too where everyone else is and we can get back too a normal life and not worry from day to day. Dolly you have been wonderful -:) I'll try to post the rest of the curve tonight or tomorr. IdaI also

lab lover
03-19-2009, 03:28 PM
Update just checked her at 5pm and it was 190 -so I guess according to the vet she is really 290. I was reading other post that use the same monitor and I think they are only adding 40 or 50 points. So I guess I really won't know her correct reading till I get the alpha track one. Anyways to me she is acting better and energy level a little higher than it was before. We took her for a ride for over an hour and she loved it was not panting just layed down and enjoyed the ride. Made me feel a lot better.:) I'll post her other readings later.

We Hope
03-19-2009, 03:37 PM
Ida,

Let me try taking this a piece at a time.

On the 17 - vet's visit I checked my monitor Reilon with the vet doing a glucose on her Alpha Track ,there is 100 points difference in readings. I have decided to get a Alpha Track so I will be sure the readings I am giving her are correct. Her monitor showed 341 and mine showed 208. So she told me too always add at least 100 points to my readings. That evening I checked Baby before she ate and it read 403.

I have to disagree here because this is a comparison of a ReliOn meter to an AlphaTrak meter--it's meter to meter and not meter to a more sensitive blood testing method like Antech. Going meter to meter doesn't give you any real "reliable" comparitor, so I would question adding 100 points to a ReliOn or any meter reading. You will only know how much difference there is between the ReliOn and a test like Antech when you actually take the same sample for both. Same holds true for the Alpha Trak.

I think it would be wise for you to get the AlphaTrak, but would also like to see what the differences are between any meter and an Antech test.

Yesterday I checked her urine with a dip stick and it read 500 -this was before I brought it up to the vet because she wanted too see if she has a UTI and she did - also traces of blood. She is on antibotics 2 x a day now.

Having an infection anywhere in the body can affect bg's; most of the time they make them go higher, but they also can make them go lower than normal. I would believe these higher readings stem at least partly from Baby's having the UTI and that you should see better numbers once the antibiotic starts working on the infection. I would keep an eye on her with the bg's to make sure that she doesn't get too low once the antibiotic has started clearing the UTI--she may need less insulin once that happens.

We are really having a hard time with getting enough blood from her elbow pads I think we will be shaving an area above her tail - my husband finally decided - he's been helping me.

Not everyone finds they do well with the elbows, just as not everybody can use the inner or outer lip. There are people who have found using the base of the tail works best for them. Since you're quite new to this, it will take a little "experimenting" to find out what works best for Baby and you. :)

I just hoped I am doing this reading right because if it was really low like 83 I am sure I would see signs of distress and she doesn't showed it she seems better too me. I would like everyone's opinon on her unit dose the vet feels after we get her to eat good she would liked to lower the food cup to one cup twice a day and increase insulin but, she said she might do this - this worries me she will be getting too much insulin and not enough food. I have been checking the dogs on the board their insulin dosage and food and the ones near Baby size are on a lower dose of insulin and a little more food. She feels Baby should weight 85 lbs and this would helped the Diabetes

Getting a true 83 is within range of normal blood glucose for a dog or person who doesn't have diabetes. Most people get a bit nervous when they see something lower than 90 that doesn't start going up right away. It again depends on your dog; mine was at 85 8-10 hours after breakfast and morning insulin with no signs of low/hypo at all. After we got him onto the right insulin and food for him, this was normal because he could stay low and steady; he never had a hypo.

I agree that Baby needs to be eating regularly because without that, it means she wouldn't be able to take her full insulin doses. It should depend on what kind of readings Baby's giving you as to whether she needs to have her insulin increased. Cutting back on the food can mean she will lose the extra weight as it looks like she needs to. Losing the extra weight will mean that she needs less insulin because it goes by body weight.

When people and dogs are regulated well, they can pick up weight from being on insulin; we had this happen to Lucky. He was a small dog and had gained 1/4 lb, but that extra bit was enough to affect his bg readings. We decided to leave the insulin as it was but cut back a bit on the food. He lost the 1/4 lb we wanted him to and went right back into having those low and tight numbers when it was gone.

Also, I asked her when she drew the blood in her office it was from a syringe because she also need blood for the thyroid I did it with a lancet so I wonder would this difference in blood also effect the level. This morn she called and said it did not make a difference. I know doing it with a lancet is capillary blood. Any info would be appreciated.

Most doctors prefer to do a blood draw with a syringe. The meters are geared to be able to properly read venous and capillary blood so it shouldn't make any difference in where the blood for testing's coming from. When a doctor needs to take more than a drop for other tests, it's a lot easier to get the amount you need by using the syringe to get it. ;)

If Baby turns out to have a thyroid problem, this may also be something that's affecting her bg's; when there are thyroid problems, most often they are low, or hypothyroid ones in dogs, while cats tend more to high, or hyperthyroid ones.

I see that you've just posted a reading of 190. I would believe this is closer to the truth than what adding 100 points does to it because you're saying Baby's feeling better and has more energy. My thought would be that she would be just the opposite if the reading was really close to 300.

Kathy

lab lover
03-19-2009, 06:20 PM
I just read your post We Hope I hope I didn't confused you - my main concern is reading this monitor right and giving my vet the right readings until the Alpha comes in. When she said add hundred points to the reading that's what threw me off. Should I just go by what my monitor is reading for now? Hopefully I will have the new one on Monday. I am going to have her tested with the new one at the vets office and also bring in the Relion to see the difference in range. This way I won't have to use the Alpha one all the time - since the strips are so expensive. I also wanted to mentioned I never used the controlled solution with my monitor but, calibration was done with every new package of strips. Would this make a difference in readings? Thanks, Ida

We Hope
03-19-2009, 06:36 PM
Ida,

For safety's sake, I would go with the readings you get from your present meter as is.

My concern here in adding 100 points to the reading when we are not honestly sure that's the difference between the ReliOn and a more sensitive test, is that it could cause someone not to take a low reading seriously.

If you saw that Baby was at 45, she may not have any symptoms we see that identifies low blood glucose. When we first were regulating my Lucky, we got a 35 and he had no hypo symptoms at all. We treated him with syrup and food--the only time I ever had to give him any syrup, but he did none of the things you expect to see with blood sugar that low.

If you got a 45 reading from Baby on your meter, you'd be right to give syrup and food; if you added that 100 points spoken about to your 45 reading, that would add up to 145 and it would look like Baby's doing fine when she should get help for being too low.

On the other side of this coin, you might be getting very nice bg readings from Baby, but with adding that 100 points to it, it would appear that she's running too high. So you increase the insulin where it really shouldn't be increased, and then you run the risk of a hypo from too much insulin.

I think it's a fine idea to take both the ReliOn and your AlphaTrak when it comes to the vet's and have a drop of the draw placed on the strips to run a test on each one. Then you will know how much difference there is between an Antech or Antech type test and each of these meters.

I know the AlphaTrak strips are much more expensive than the strips for the "people meters". This is why you see a lot of the other members here saying they have the two--AlphaTrak and a human meter. They use their human meters for the "everyday" testing and the AlphaTrak for doing home curves for the exact reason you mentioned--the strips are cheaper. ;)

If you feel that any meter isn't reading correctly, that's when you do the test with the control solution to find out if it's reading right or not. Since you have a meter that needs to be calibrated or coded when you start a new vial of strips (some don't need to be coded, BTW--depends on the brand and model you have), you're doing things exactly the way they're meant to be done. :)

Kathy

lab lover
03-19-2009, 06:50 PM
Ida,

For safety's sake, I would go with the readings you get from your present meter as is.

My concern here in adding 100 points to the reading when we are not honestly sure that's the difference between the ReliOn and a more sensitive test, is that it could cause someone not to take a low reading seriously.

If you saw that Baby was at 45, she may not have any symptoms we see that identifies low blood glucose. When we first were regulating my Lucky, we got a 35 and he had no hypo symptoms at all. We treated him with syrup and food--the only time I ever had to give him any syrup, but he did none of the things you expect to see with blood sugar that low.

If you got a 45 reading from Baby on your meter, you'd be right to give syrup and food; if you added that 100 points spoken about to your 45 reading, that would add up to 145 and it would look like Baby's doing fine when she should get help for being too low.

On the other side of this coin, you might be getting very nice bg readings from Baby, but with adding that 100 points to it, it would appear that she's running too high. So you increase the insulin where it really shouldn't be increased, and then you run the risk of a hypo from too much insulin.

I think it's a fine idea to take both the ReliOn and your AlphaTrak when it comes to the vet's and have a drop of the draw placed on the strips to run a test on each one. Then you will know how much difference there is between an Antech or Antech type test and each of these meters.

I know the AlphaTrak strips are much more expensive than the strips for the "people meters". This is why you see a lot of the other members here saying they have the two--AlphaTrak and a human meter. They use their human meters for the "everyday" testing and the AlphaTrak for doing home curves for the exact reason you mentioned--the strips are cheaper. ;)

If you feel that any meter isn't reading correctly, that's when you do the test with the control solution to find out if it's reading right or not. Since you have a meter that needs to be calibrated or coded when you start a new vial of strips (some don't need to be coded, BTW--depends on the brand and model you have), you're doing things exactly the way they're meant to be done. :)

Kathy

Thanks for answering me Kathy I feel better now. It so much too learn and I write everything down too. Hopefully next wk I will have the new monitor and wonderful readings to tell every one about. Have a good night. Ida

We Hope
03-19-2009, 06:54 PM
Ida,

If you feel better, so do I! And you have a good one too! :)

Kathy

eyelostit
03-19-2009, 09:48 PM
Ida,

I'm glad you are feeling a bit better with this, I know it all can be overwhelming at first, but you have came along way, you are asking the vet questions and she seems to understand your concerns.

You are doing curves now ;) ! thats a big step when this is all new to someone, and you are getting some blood !! I know we sound like vampires at times :D

Your on the right track Ida, you are taking great care of Baby, in time the testing and all you have learned will fall into place, you will look back on these days down the road just like all of us did.

You're doing great, give yourself a pat on the back, glad Hubby is helping.

Let us know about the thyroid.

We can see the insulin is working, Baby felt better today, seems like you felt better today also.:)

I'm proud of you.;)

lab lover
03-20-2009, 08:25 AM
Thanks Dolly for all your helped waiting on thyroid now - after her antibotic last night in the middle of the night she woke us up I think it is upsetting her stomach - I give it with food. Cep something I don't have it in front of me but, she has been on it before. At least she ate all her food this am. I'll be in touch. Ida

k9diabetes
03-20-2009, 10:22 PM
I was able as administrator to copy your Profile picture to your Avatar... Natalie

Margaret Boyle
03-21-2009, 08:41 AM
Thanks Dolly for all your helped waiting on thyroid now - after her antibotic last night in the middle of the night she woke us up I think it is upsetting her stomach - I give it with food. Cep something I don't have it in front of me but, she has been on it before. At least she ate all her food this am. I'll be in touch. Ida


Well done Ida you seem to be doing well Baby is a cutie.:D


LOL

lab lover
03-21-2009, 12:29 PM
I was able as administrator to copy your Profile picture to your Avatar... Natalie

Oh thank you Natalie as soon as it came up I saw Baby and that made my day thanks so much. She is a cutie - just doesn't looked as healthy in that picture but, I know in time she will thanks again. Ida

lab lover
03-21-2009, 12:40 PM
Yea! I have my Alpha Track did my first test this afternoon after coming back from the vet's office to picked it up (Baby) wasn't with me. Her reading was 138 at 1:30 today. They put the control solution on the strip and coded it for me also, set up time and everything else. Tmorr I will try a curve - I checked it with the Relion and it was only 38 points difference all I know I feel secured that i have the correct readings. Been reading the booklet all day and will check Cd out tonight. Oh most important thing - I feel stupid but, in case someone else does this it will helped them on Relion Strips I would put the blood right on top of the strip near the white line and I think that is why all of my readings and doc's were different - then when my son did the reading with pet monitor andthe Relion one I watched him and all he did was touch the white area on (Relion) and the reading was 30 points different. I feel stupid but, thought they may be someone else out there thinking they are doing it right and there not. I guess you learn trial and error - thank God Baby made it thru all my stupidity. Have a great day Ida

We Hope
03-21-2009, 01:10 PM
Ida,

In many of these meters, it matters a whole bunch how and where you get the blood on the test strip and how much or how little of it there is!

For my first tries at this with my mother, I killed off the 10 strips that come with the AccuChek Advantage in just a few minutes and was dipping into the separate vial before I "got it"! :D

I was using too little blood and then too much before I figured out what the right amount to get a real reading was.

So you're not alone in this one; I'd say that most of us have had adventures like yours when we started out.

The good thing is that once you "get it", it's like riding a bike--you never really forget how to do it! :)

Kathy

lab lover
03-21-2009, 08:04 PM
I must have used at least 10 strips today - I keep forgetting to make sure the code show's up - tomorr the book will be in front of me when I checked her it is a lot faster than the Relion but, wasting strips is too costly. This was her readings for today she get's her food and shot at 7am and 7pm.

Noon 138
6pm 294
9:30 292

It is still pretty high for getting her shot and food at 7pm, she is acting better and feeling better does it take time more time for the insulin too worked,after feeding. Tommorr I will try doing a curve with the book right in front of me every time, that way on Monday I will have a good reading for the Vet. I checked and the thyroid isn't in yet only one came back good I think the assistant said a T4, but, I will get it for sure on Monday and a print out of it. They said they sent it to UT Vet School of Medicine I hope everything is ok for it too be taking so long. Also, she still taking the antibotic for UTI infection for at least another wk.

Still have too hand feed her in the am not too bad in the pm so I really want her regulated so we can offer maybe a different dry food. I wished she would eat the string beans or broccoli but, she won't even try - turns her head when she see's us coming. I noticed during the day I can tell she is hungry and I couldl feed them too her in the afternoon. Would chicken broth without salt be ok to put on them? The vet gave us some little biscuits low in fat, no sugar and we give her two in afternoon and she gulps them down. I hope that is not making her readings higher but, the vet said it was ok. Some day I will know enough about this and what to do with her eating habits it is so hard to say no to her - when yu know she still wants her other dog biscuits. I'll be in touch again. Ida

We Hope
03-21-2009, 09:09 PM
It is still pretty high for getting her shot and food at 7pm, she is acting better and feeling better does it take time more time for the insulin too worked,after feeding.

Ida,

What you're hoping to be able to do by working with Baby is have the food and the insulin start "working" at the same time. Even with people who use rapid-acting insulins, the insulin doesn't go to work instantly. It goes to work quickly, but not the minute you get it under the skin. If that was true, there would be a lot of people and pets going hypo on a regular basis!

For safety's sake, you need to give the insulin after Baby's eaten. If not, you will have more insulin than food if she refuses to eat or eats only a part of that meal--then you run a hypo risk for sure.

Things look very nice until we get down to about an hour before dinner and the evening shot; we'll be anxious to see what kind of numbers you get all day tomorrow! ;)

A lot of people give the string beans and broccoli in place of treats because they are low-carb and low sugar, so sure you can. Low/no salt, low fat chicken broth is fine; sometimes that can make meals seem a lot tastier. :)

You might want to think about going to one of the prescription foods if you can swing it because there's more fiber in it. The fiber is good for both diabetes control and to help Baby lose the weight she should. A lot of people who don't use prescription food have done nicely with Science Diet Light.

You've been at this for a short time and I think you're doing great! It is a lot to learn, and I know it feels like it's all thrown at you at one time without your getting a chance to take it a step at a time. ;)

So we'll wait for you to post some curve numbers tommorow!

Kathy

lab lover
03-22-2009, 07:36 AM
An update and I'm nervous already I fed Baby at 7am and gave her 20 units she is (95lb) I checked her before I fed her and it was 313 - than I just checked her again at 9:00am and it 474 - I hope it starts going down by noon. I really think the dry food is not working with the insulin but, by the end of the day I should know something. I also, wonder if these antibotics are working ok she has been on them since Tues and will lick herself every time she goes. Also, she hardly drinks water (which I know is good that she is not drinking all the time) but, maybe once or twice the whole day is that ok? I keep reading the article about Chris and how insulin and food works - I'm not sure but, if her readings are not good by the end of the day I really want to changed her food and talk to the vet. My concern is she wanted me to only give Baby 1 cup of dry twice a day with 2cup of chicken twice a day since she is over weight. I kept her on the 1 cup 1/2 x2 with chickenx2 c- also will try the string beans with a little chicken broth. I'll post later in the day reg: her curve. I know I need more fiber in her diet but, haven't found anything she will eat. Thanks, Ida

peggy0
03-22-2009, 08:33 AM
Maybe the antibiotic is raising it Ida. I wouldn't be too concerned just yet. Forbins went up for several days after his teeth cleaning and now is back to normal. I didn't adjust his food or insulin. That doesn't seem like alot of food for a 95 pound dog, but boiled chicken did make forbins BGs go up.

eyelostit
03-22-2009, 09:24 PM
You're doing good, post the curve when you can :)

BaileyBear
03-22-2009, 10:52 PM
Chicken raised (though less than his full amount of dry at the time) and kept Bailey's numbers in a higher range too. When I was still feeding the chicken, I had started to pull back on the amount and was getting closer to good numbers when we switched to scrambled eggs.

Also, in the PM you sent me, you seemed very concerned that the numbers were increasing in the hours after meals. That's a normal response to a meal, so don't worry too much about that right now. What you'll eventually aim for is to keep Baby's overall numbers in a healthy range for her, with those post-meal increases not too extreme.

While Baby is still on the antibiotics, there are just too many factor's going on at the same time to be overly concerned about the higher numbers. Let her finish up the medication and then give her a few days to see where her numbers land. Then you can do a curve on her, post it here, and I'm sure there will be things people can advise with regards to dosage and tweaking her diet. Baby is still on a low enough dose for her weight that there is plenty of room to increase, if that is what's needed after she finishes her meds. You and Baby are going to get there. :)

lab lover
03-23-2009, 10:51 AM
Update on Baby's curve yesterday


7:00am before she had food and shot 313 -gave her shot 7:15.

9am 474
11:00am 238
2:15 pm 222
4:30 pm 375
6:45 pm 287 before feeding than shot
8:30pm 275
10:30pm 237


This morning I wasn't able to checked her till she came back from a little walk and it showed 86 I got nervous and did a control solution test to check meter and it was fine so I guess exercise brings downs the glucose. I wished I would have checked her this am to see the difference but, the way I am going my 5o strips won't last long at all. What websites gives you the best [price in ordering the Alpha Track, strips. Waiting on vet to called for Thyroid test better be back today. Baby seems fine with the low reading of 86 just sleeping. I wished she was off the antibotics liked everyone has said that could be throwing off readings - plus getting more chicken and not enough carbs. I'll be in touch. Ida

We Hope
03-23-2009, 11:41 AM
Ida,

Most of this looks VERY GOOD! :) If you'll post the price you're paying for AlphaTrak strips, we'll start looking for a better deal for you, OK? ;)

Remember that exercise mostly does bring bg's down, but for some, it can raise them; now you know that Baby's one of the majority--the ones whose bg's go down with exercise. :)

You might want to try using your ReliOn meter again because I know the strips for that are a lot cheaper than the AlphaTrak ones--quite a few people here use their human meters for "everyday" testing and a meter like AlphaTrak for things like curves--reason is the cost of those strips. :D

Kathy

peggy0
03-23-2009, 11:51 AM
Hi Ida

I check every week to see who has the best deal on the alpha strips. This week its amazon.com at $58 for 50. If anyone sees anything cheaper let me know:)

lab lover
03-23-2009, 06:35 PM
I spoke to the vet today and gave her all of Baby's readings she wanted to increase her insulin - I didn't want too after reading everything I have read so far between the forum and websites so I suggested changing her food. I also, asked if I need too keep checking her during the day and she said not really I don't need to waste so many strips let's just changed her food and checked her once a day. Also, I forgot to tell you all her thyroid came out normal so that's why she wanted increase her insulin since she was high 10:30 pm. Well, I went and bought E Vo 42 percent protein, 12%carbor, and when I came back from the store I decided to checked her at 6pm her level was 60 I checked twice more and did a control reading the monitor was right I also checked with the Relion it came back low. The vet is closed by now I called the emergency vet 1 and half way and they told me too bring her in plus I knew to give karo. I called Dolly I was so nervous (thank God she was home and helped me so much) i gave her 1 tablespoon of Karo plus her food. At 7:15 I checked her and she is back up to 143.

For some reason I just felt uncomfortable raising her insulin level plus not checking her so she would have been in a a lot more trouble if I would have gave her -her normal 20 unit tonight. I don't know if I went from bad too worst regarding vet's but, will have a long talk tomorr. I don't understand what really happened too make her drop so much because I did not different in food, or excerise except for the walk today when she was 84 (after the walk) and it wasn't that far. I also told the vet about the 84 reading and she said that was good. Now I will checked her in around 9pm to see what her reading is she has had no insulin since 7am. If she starts going up to 300 or 400 should I give her 1/2 dose of her insulin or wait till morn too speak with the vet. Please give me your advice I was so scared this was the first time she ever drop so low but, the Karo really works fast and she ate all her food. I am not changing any food this wk and will be checking her constantly this wk plus all night. I will checked later on the board. I thought I could of really loss her tonight if I gave her the normal dose. This is so overwhelming I guess I am learning the hard way and wished there were vets here that have emergency hrs where they would called you back. I would have never made the ride to emergency room we would have had an accidents I get to nervous under these conditions. I'll checked back later with more readings. Ida

We Hope
03-23-2009, 06:58 PM
Ida,

To see that Baby gets some insulin and that you're not giving it so late that it might get in trouble with the morning dose, I would only give her half this evening. This gets some insulin to her and it should mean no chance of a hypo.

What you want to do is see that Baby gets some insulin so her bg's don't start going into the very high ranges again.

You did everything right when you saw Baby's 60--the syrup and the food! ;)

Right now, I would hold off on going to the Evo because first of all, we need to get Baby to the point where she doesn't get to 60 again, so that means change only one thing at a time and you've done that--giving the half dose of insulin. I believe you should talk with someone tomorrow before Baby's breakfast and morning insulin because I personally couldn't feel comfortable right now giving her 20 units in the morning after having what you did this afternoon/early evening.

My thought would be that before Baby goes back to using 20 units of insulin a day or more, there needs to be an answer to why she went down to 60 for you today. Sometimes you need less insulin and to stay with it for a little bit, even though the numbers are running somewhat higher than you'd like.

Kathy

eyelostit
03-23-2009, 08:30 PM
Ida,

It will be Ok if Baby is running high in the AM , you handled everything well, anxious to hear what the vet says tommorrow, hopefully they will advise to lower the insulin dose.

lab lover
03-23-2009, 08:34 PM
She went back up to 343 at 9pm so I gave her 10 units I hope this helps and she is ok and she doesn't drop real low again during the night so I will be watching her all night. Untill I can talk to the vet I want some ans on why this happened and she went so low - all I can think about is what would of happened if I didn't checked her before her evening dose and I gave her the full 20 unit. This is so stressful I don't know how all of you do it. I won't be changing her food now at all until I find out what happened. I don't think just a few walks a day would lower it that much I think when she was switched from Vetsulin to NPH they started at a dose too high. I'm just learning all about this but, from what I read they usually cut the dose in half when they switched. I'll keep you informed she is sleeping now -which I could. I want to checked her again around midnight and see what her reading is. Have a good night. Ida

eyelostit
03-23-2009, 08:51 PM
Oh pretty soon Ida you'll be answering questions like the rest of us. ;) ( I know it don't look like it now, but you will ;))

peggy0
03-23-2009, 08:52 PM
Hi Ida

It is incredibly stressful and I think you're doing the right thing. When Forbin was going very low, then high, I cut his dosage back to 75% of what he should have gotten based on his weight and moved up very slowly 1/2 to one unit at a time and left it alone for a week to see the effect. I felt like he would never get regulated but we got there. He is now at a lower dosage than what my vet started with and is typically in the mid 100s to high 200s. He does get a few lows and a few highs, but I treat them accordingly, karo for the lows and ignore the high unless it becomes a pattern.

My vet just told me today now that we know Forbin is regulated and did so well during anesthesia, I can now monitor him for clinical signs vs. curves and pre meal. I told him that was not going to happen as I would not shoot insulin unless I know where he is. Its my peace of mind.

You're doing great.

lab lover
03-24-2009, 04:38 AM
I just checked her glucose and she is at 275 can't called the vet till 8am should I wait to feed her? I don't want her to get too 60 again. This is after 10 units last night. I hope it will hold her till I talked to the vet. Ida

peggy0
03-24-2009, 05:20 AM
Hi Ida, I would want to be getting her back to her normal time, so I'd feed her at 730 and then talk to the vet at 8. You can give her a shot when you talk to the vet at that time. 30 minute wait to give her a shot isn't going to hurt her; I do it every am with Forbin. If she is on Vetsulin, the insulin won't peak again until 8.

lab lover
03-24-2009, 10:16 AM
Vet finally called at 10am I spoke with the vet and liked him a lot better than the one I went too. He lower her dose to 15 units I did feed her at 7am and gave her the shot at 10am. I have too monitor her today and called him before they closed to let know her readings. I did asked him if I could feed her again at 7pm because that is a good time scheduled for us and I don't want too wait till 10pm for the next shot. So she will eat at 7pm and then he will let me know what time to give the shot and hopefully tomorr we will be back to the next schedule. She might get less or more tonight depending on readings but, will get the 15 in am tomorr. He couldn't give me a reason why this happened, could of been less food she ate, more excerise or too much insulin which he thinks it was and so do I. I think I will be dealing with him he seems to not be offended if I suggest and asked questions that need too be ans. At 10 her reading was back up to 345. So I hope she does good today. He also said do not changed anything in feeding habits and still give antibotics till she is done. That could of cause the problems the UTI.

I am so wiped out today from last night and so is Baby. I tried looking on Amazon.com for strips but, could only find meter. I entered alpha strips and meter keeps coming up. I have never ordered from them so I don't know if I am doing right. Let me know. I checked Pet Meds and they are 69.00 for 50 I need too order soon - any other places I can check let me know. Ida

peggy0
03-24-2009, 10:20 AM
Great News Ida. Stress does wipe you out. i think you will be pleased cutting back. I did this with forbin and kept his food consistent and gradually increased by 1/2 unit a week until we got to a good place. The antibiotics may change the picture a bit. It took Forbin 3 days to get back to normal after his 5 day antibiotic pack from the vet. Go to

www.amazon.com and in search type: alphatrak strips. They come right up and are $58

We Hope
03-24-2009, 10:29 AM
Ida,

I think it's great news about Baby! :) Don't panic about the AlphaTrak strips because if you get "caught short", you can get some for your ReliOn meter and use that.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B001139V00/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

Here are 3 places offering the AlphaTrak strips. You see they're pretty much alike in the price, but before you order, check out what kind of shipping $ each wants to see who is the best deal. ;)

Kathy

lab lover
03-24-2009, 06:25 PM
Ida,

I think it's great news about Baby! :) Don't panic about the AlphaTrak strips because if you get "caught short", you can get some for your ReliOn meter and use that.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B001139V00/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

Here are 3 places offering the AlphaTrak strips. You see they're pretty much alike in the price, but before you order, check out what kind of shipping $ each wants to see who is the best deal. ;)

Kathy


Thanks, I did checked the amazon site is cheaper so I will order them. Update on Baby after her 15 units at 10:15am I checked her at 12;45 she was 387, 3:30-266, 5:15-211, 7:00-231 the vet wants me to feed her at 7:30 and give her the 15 units at 8:30pm. Because last night she got the 10 units at 10:30pm so she is off her schedule. I hope we have a good night. I will checked her again before I give her the shot I am just so nervous now poor thing she see's me coming and just roll's over and doesn't even whine anymore. I just wished I could get an ans why this happened, too much insulin, IUT, or maybe the heartworm pill on Sunday the not knowing drives me nuts but, I guess this is how this diease is you just take it one day at a time. Maybe I feel better when she is regulated we still have to figured out the food issue but, have to wait now. Thanks, everyone for all your helped. Ida

We Hope
03-24-2009, 06:39 PM
Ida,

All those, including myself, who had problems with a flea or heartworm med had their dog's bg's go up very high from them. Never heard anyone say their dog had a low when they used any of these, so I don't think that's why Baby came up with the 60 yesterday.

Most of the time an infection will make the bg's go high, but yes, sometimes they can make them go lower than usual. But you have been giving Baby antibiotics for this and she's been taking them long enough so that shouldn't be the case either.

I'm looking at the numbers you posted today for Baby and thinking that she got 10 units a little late last night and got 15 today. I can see how she was 387 because of hitting that 60 yesterday and needing syrup and food, but what stands out to me is how nicely the numbers have gotten more reasonable after that--on less than 20 units of insulin.

So I'm thinking along the lines your new vet is--that 20 units of insulin was just too much for Baby and yesterday it caught up with her in the form of going low to 60.

You're doing it the smart way--taking it one step at a time. For someone who just recently needed to start "figuring" out all of this, I think you're doing a fantastic job! :D

Kathy

eyelostit
03-24-2009, 07:53 PM
Sounds like Baby is getting used to being tested, thats good, it took a bit for Niki but I think she knows there's a reason why I do it. After she eats she knows she needs that insulin and will come to me at times before the 30 min. somehow she knows the insulin helps her.:)

lab lover
03-25-2009, 04:44 PM
Update on Baby's reading for today - 15 units.

7:30 - 230
11:30 267
3:00 - 249
5:00 - 280

I had a doctor's appt at 1pm so we decided to let her go for a ride (which she loves) but, she acted really tired when we got back at 3pm. When I spoke with the vet at 11:30 he said he thinks she is doing better on the 15 units but, too early to tell until we get a few more days of reading - I hope she doesn't have too go back to 20 units. I checked with Solid Gold and found out the dry food she is eating has 22% protein and 10% carbs, we also add chicken, and trying to get her to eat the green beans, but she isn't getting much carbs. I know diet is important but, vet said too leave her on this for another wk. What can I add for more carbs for her?

I feel guilty that I did not checked Baby again during the day on Monday after her reading of 84 at noon but, when I called the new vet to give her the readings for Sunday I told her how low it was at noon and she said that's ok - I guess it didn't register in my brain to checked her again around 3 0r 4pm but, thank God I did checked her before I gave her feeding and shot or it would have been worst. Now I am back to every two or three hrs - I have gone thru a 50 strips since I bought the meter I just don't feel comfortable using the human one right now. The vet's office was cheaper than amazon for the strips.

I have been talking to the owner of Vet's office instead of the Vet I saw since she has been off for the past couple of days and I really liked him a lot. He has given me more info. So here I go again - I'm going too try to speak to him every time I call the office. He told me he wanted an update when I called on Tues,( to let them know what happened Monday) with her low reading of 60, so since then I have been speaking to him. I will checked with him tomorr when I dropped off all her readings for him to looked at he had to leave early today. I wished I could just deal with one Vet but, it looks liked with their schedules your lucky if the same vet is there every day and I need that right now until she is regulated.

I'll post tomorr the rest of reading for today. Thanks for the compliment Kathy I wished I could learn everything a lot faster - too much on my mind and Baby every time I looked at her I get nervous that something is wrong. I just want her back to being a happy dog and it's been a while since Nico passed in Oct - her buddy. Thanks again for everyone help couldn't of handled none of this with out this forum - so glad Dolly forwarded it too me.
Ida

We Hope
03-25-2009, 06:27 PM
Ida,

First off, Baby will be a little bit higher for a couple of days because of hitting that 60 and your needing to get the syrup and extra food. You should be seeing better numbers from her on her 15 units in the next day or two. When your bg's go up and down as Baby's had to the other day, it makes you feel worn out; she should be back to normal energy soon.

Why not wait and see how things go for now with the insulin and the food because it may turn out that you don't need to add carbs at all.

Sometimes vets aren't at the same practice every day because they either have more than one or work at more than one. You might be able to ask your vet if you can call him about Baby; he may have more than one practice and you can speak to him when he's at another one.

Because at the time there were two practices, I'd often need to call John when he wasn't at the old one but at the present one. When that was the case, we'd take care of everything possible at the old practice, get the information faxed to John and he and I would then talk about it. Since Lucky was such a puzzle in the beginning, we decided early on that John would be the only one regarding making insulin changes; we'd talk about it when that looked like it needed to be done. We kept a full copy of Lucky's records at both practices so it was easy for him to just pick up the file wherever he was.

From the readings you posted, I can see that they are quite steady--not a lot of variance between them; that's a good thing because it means it looks like you're not going to be seeing another 60! :)

Kathy

eyelostit
03-25-2009, 10:28 PM
You have nice flat numbers, in a few days they should go a bit lower, it will take a few days, I don't think you should see anymore below 100, keep us posted.

You could use the Relion meter to save on strips, if you are worried about the lows, this will show that also, this meter gets closer to the Alphatrak as the bg starts going below 200.

hang in there.:)

lab lover
03-27-2009, 05:30 PM
Here is an update on Baby, I haven't posted since the Wed, On Thurs at

7am-388
10am-439
Noon -354
6pm -443
10pm -319
12pm - 357

Fri

7am - 493
10am -269
Noon - 232
3:30 - 264
6:30 - 362

When I called the vet on Thurs, he told me to increase the insulin to 16 units one more than she was getting. When I saw the 400's reading I couldn't believed it I thought we were on the road too recovery. Today wasn't too bad except for the 7am reading. I didn't know it would take a while for her too adjust too the low reading on Mon, vets' don't tell you anything unless you asked. In the afternoon the lady vet that I first saw called me and said she spoke with a nutritionist at the UT Vet Hospital/School and said I should feed Baby a half of can of the Solid gold food (she is eating the dry solid gold) so I am trying that 1 cup, of dry and half can dog food (chicken and turkey), plus green beans again and some chopped chicken breast. This is was she ate today and she is eating better with the can food mixed in the other food.

I was a little confused when she called because in the am I spoke with the other vet and he is the one who increased her insulin and when I asked him about food (he said let's not changed anything yet) and then she call's in the afternoon too add the can food. I asked her if she spoke with her boss and she knew about the low readings and everything that has happened since she was gone while this is going on. I did not called them today because I wanted to see how she did in her readings. When I call tomorr I am going to asked if the male vet can make all decision's because this is too confusing for me and if he is not there than I can speak with her. I think this is when mistakes happened I don't want it to happen to Baby. I did want too add some can food so I went ahead and did what she said.

I also noticed when Baby readings are high liked her 6pm 362 alpha track I checked the Relion monitor and it showed 260. When she is low the Relion monitor is about 30 to 40 points difference. Until I get her where I feel comfortable I will used the Alpha Track one. I know it is expensive but, she is worth it and I will do without too buy them - I bought some at my vet's and it was cheaper than on liine 52.00 for fifty. Hope we have a better night tonight last night when she is in the 400's she whimpers and is miserable doesn't sleep good at all so everyone is up. Hoping for better readings tomorrow. Ida

We Hope
03-27-2009, 05:55 PM
Ida,

When there's a low, it can take 2-3 days or more for the body to settle back down from it. When you hit a low, there are hormones triggered by it that make the bg's go high. We're all made like this--part of the body's way of saving itself. So those hormones have to go back to their usual levels.

It's good that Baby is eating better with the food changes you've made, and I agree with you that you should have only one vet you talk things over with and who advises you. We had a rule about that with Lucky; John and I talked everything over. (There are times I think the others were glad they didn't need to try to figure him out. :) )

Now, since it takes a couple of days to get straightened out from a low, it also can take a couple of days or better for you to see the full effect of the insulin increase Baby just got, so don't get worried and upset if you don't see things all in the right places in the morning, OK?

I hope you'll see better numbers tomorrow too, but don't want you to get discouraged if they're not perfect tomorrow. ;)

Kathy

k9diabetes
03-29-2009, 10:07 AM
You know, overall, you guys are doing great! Things are getting settled and the testing is going well. You deserve congratulations on how far you and Baby have come in such a short time!

I read yesterday a saying... that the only thing two dog trainers can agree on is what a third dog trainer is doing wrong!

That can go with vets and diabetes too... there are different ideas out there and it would definitely be confusing to have more than one doc's hand in things. So I support your sticking with one vet for advice - need someone who knows what's been done so far!

Natalie

eyelostit
03-29-2009, 10:45 AM
How'd the weekend go Ida ?

lab lover
03-29-2009, 11:10 AM
On Fri 7:am - 493
10:00 -269
12:30 -232
3:30 - 264
6:30 - 362

Sat 7:00 am 443
Noon 338
1pm 220
3:00 225
6pm 201
8pm 278

Sun 6:30 327
noon 260


I didn't called the vet on Fri since her readings weren't too bad except for the 493 in am but, then with food and walks she started too go down and I wanted to checked in with them on Sat, since they are only there till 1pm I gave the lady vet her readings and she said she wanted to see only a 300 reading in the am when she gets up since her ones on sat were so high. It has only been two days since I started with the Solid Gold half can with the dry food, beans, and lower 1/2 cup of chicken. She told me to increased her insulin too 17 if she was higher than 300 on am on Sun. Well, I didn't do it I wanted to talk to the other vet and I also wanted to give her another day with the changed of food. My son lives with us part of the wk and part he works out of town, this wk he was here four days so she has had more walks I am starting to checked her after walks and her bg's do go down. I was reading Milo's thread and Baby is the same with stress she goes up and excersie she goes down. Also, like Milo she loss Niko her companion for 6 1/2 yrs and I think this makes a difference -I think she still misses him and it has been 6months. (I was talking too the vet yesterday about this) she felt that she had low energy from the high bg and she probrably does but, I am factoring in she is still depressed from losing Nico. She did not have diabetes when he passed and she was very mopey, and acted sad -just layed around and two months later we found out she had Diabetes. I had her checked in Oct and she was fine.

My point is depressed dogs with diabetes can throw you off thinking they have a high bg until you checked them ( poor Baby gets checked so much now but, until I see at least 200's during the day I will continued. I wished I could get her a buddy but, with this diease it is a lot too do and very stress full, plus expensive and I want too give her the best care I can. We have a new neighbor moving in next door and they have a dog mix lab, male so I am hoping she will perked up and be able to run up and down the side of the fence liked she use too with the past neighbors dog.

The one thing I am getting confused on is my lady vet (since she spoke with the UT Vet Nutritionist) wants her too have more simple carborhydrates then protein. She said this was better for her. She wanted me too lower the chicken we cooked for her to 1/2 cup that's the only way I even get her too eat is putting in the chicken or a piece of low fat single sliced cheese once in a while, also cottage cheese. From what I am reading mostly everyone has more protein in their dog diet than the carbs. Was is your view point on this. I checked on the website to see was is a simple carb I had know idea so I have a list too worked with just hope she is giving the right infor. I will passed this along with the other vet (I hope he is there on Monday) this makes it harder on me since I liked him a lot and started with her I want to go over everything with him before I increased her insulin. Wish there was a way to just speak with him and not hurt feelings but, they worked on different days so if I need to speak to him and he is not there -she is the one who will take my call. I did noticed she started dropping on Frid when she went to 16 units - I just don't want to up her everytime she has a high for a day or two -let me know if I am wrong- just learning and trying too figured out food and levels was is right and wrong. I'll be in touch. Ida/Baby's Mom

Was it wrong too wait to up her insulin to 17 and give it another day?

eyelostit
03-29-2009, 01:20 PM
Hi Ida,
I was looking at your curves

On Fri 7:am - 493
10:00 -269
12:30 -232
3:30 - 264
6:30 - 362

Sat 7:00 am 443
Noon 338
1pm 220
3:00 225
6pm 201
8pm 278

Sun 6:30 327
noon 260

You can see on Sat your numbers came down, todays fast was 327 down 100+points from Sat and Fri.

When did you start the 16 units, earlier this week ?
No I don't think it was wrong to wait a day to start on the 17 units the vet advised.

I don't know why the vet is talking about simple carbs, they are mostly found in soft drinks, cookies, cakes things that are digested faster and taken into our system faster than a complex carb such as oatmeal or rice.

These are some complex carbs on top and simple carbs at bottom,I deleted a few that I know are very high in carbs such as fruit, the link to it, and some additional links below that.
http://www.howtothinkthin.com/instincts2.htm (http://www.howtothinkthin.com/instincts2.htm)
Some examples of healthy foods containing complex carbohydrates are:
Spinach Whole Barley
Turnip Greens Buckwheat
Lettuce Buckwheat
Water Cress Oat bran bread
Zucchini Oatmeal
Asparagus
Artichokes Okra Cabbage Brown rice
Celery Multi-grain bread
Cucumbers Pinto beans Potatoes
Dill Pickles Yogurt, low fat Soybeans
Radishes Skim milk Lentils
Broccoli Navy beans Garbanzo beans
Brussels Sprouts Cauliflower Kidney beans
Eggplant Soy milk Lentils
Onions Whole meal spelt bread Tomatoes

Simple carbohydrates are more refined, are usually found in foods with fewer nutrients, and tend to be less satisfying
and more fattening.Some examples of foods containing simple carbohydrates are:

Table sugar
Corn syrup
Fruit juice
Candy
Cake
Bread made with white flour
Pasta made with white flour
Soda pop, such as Coke®, Pepsi®, Mountain Dew®, etc.
Candy
All baked goods made with white flour
Most packaged cereals

The one below is a carb counter, you can look up foods here

http://www.lowcarb.ca/low-carb-tools/carb_counter.htm

This one is some info on carbs

http://www.childrenwithdiabetes.com/d_08_d00.htm (http://www.childrenwithdiabetes.com/d_08_d00.htm)

eyelostit
03-29-2009, 01:25 PM
The food you are giving is from reading your post
Solid Gold half can
the dry food
green beans
and lower 1/2 cup of chicken ?

Are you using 1 C of dry food or 1 1/2 C now ? and looks like chicken was decreased to 1/4 C ?

lab lover
03-29-2009, 08:24 PM
I hope someone is on the board now I am a little nervous this morn Baby was 327, 6:30 I gave her her shot and food the rest of can dog food, 3/4 cup of chicken, 1/2 green beans, 1 cup of dry. at noon she was 260, at 4pm she was 293, then at 6pm she was 403 so I decided to up the dosage to f7 units at 10pm she 421 shouldn't she be dropping her level instead of going higher. I didn't have any more of the new dog food in the can so I gave her dry, green beans, chicken and my son had some steak left over and gave her a few pieces cut up I was worried about giving it to her but, did and now her numbers are going up higher. I hope she will be all right if anyone is on the board please let me know. Ida

We Hope
03-29-2009, 08:28 PM
Ida,

You gave Baby 17 units at what time?

lab lover
03-29-2009, 08:30 PM
Regarding the carbs I am pretty sure she said simple carbs and that's why I am confused. I hope the vet is in tomorr so I can speak to him. I started her on 16 units on Tues. per the male vet I am just worried tonight with it being so high after 4hrs of getting her insulin. Ida

lab lover
03-29-2009, 08:31 PM
I gave her 17 units at 6pm tonight with food

We Hope
03-29-2009, 08:31 PM
OK--what you need to know about simple carbs is that they raise quickly--can raise high, and leave the system rather fast too. When you have to give syrup, you are giving a simple carb.

What time did Baby get her 17 units?

Can you take a quick check of her now?

lab lover
03-29-2009, 08:37 PM
Kathy I gave her 17 units at 6pm I didn't know if yu got the message I posted is it because of the steak or the increase in dosage making her level go higher. Ida

lab lover
03-29-2009, 08:38 PM
I just did checker her at 10pm and she was 421 should I checked it again. she was 403 at 6pm

We Hope
03-29-2009, 08:40 PM
Ida,

Try checking her again--Baby may have gotten more calories in what you fed her to replace the food you didn't have. When that happens, when there's more food to handle than there is insulin to deal with it, the bg's will go higher.

People get caught like this if they eat more than they planned their insulin for.

Can we check Baby again at 11 PM your time and see how she's doing? If she's coming down any?

lab lover
03-29-2009, 08:46 PM
Kathy I am going to checked her again now at 10:43 and let yu know what the reading is.

We Hope
03-29-2009, 08:47 PM
OK--let's see.

lab lover
03-29-2009, 08:47 PM
Ok I will be back on at 11pm I am so nervous I shouldn't have listen to my son. What do I do if it keeps going up? Should we take her to ER it is hour and half away.

We Hope
03-29-2009, 08:50 PM
Do you have urine sticks to check Baby for ketones? If you do, you should try using them if she has to go.

Let's see what you get in a reading before we worry about going to ER.

lab lover
03-29-2009, 08:58 PM
I just checked her it is 11pm it went up another 4 points now it is 425

lab lover
03-29-2009, 09:03 PM
My son is outside trying to get her to go I have the sticks what do I do if it high I am so scared right now.

We Hope
03-29-2009, 09:05 PM
I was just looking back at some of the curves you posted. On the diet you were feeding her, Baby started dropping after eating between 4-5 hours after she ate.

Can you see if she has ketones in her urine? If she does--more than a trace, that would be a reason to at least talk to the ER.

I believe she'll be fine if there are no ketones. Her bg's are going to be running higher than usual, but I don't think you need the ER unless Baby has ketones.

But I sure would insist that I get some time with the vet you want to handle things for Baby tomorrow if I had to go over there and sit in the waiting room until he had time for me.

We Hope
03-29-2009, 09:08 PM
Ida,

For what it's worth, my Lucky walked around in the 500-600 and up range until we found that he needed the pork insulin. Nothing else worked for him. But we were very fortunate that Lucky never had ketones from this.

He was about 14 years old when he got diabetes, and was at least 17 when he left me from old age.

If there aren't any ketones, I think Baby will be fine without the ER, but oh, boy! would I HAVE to speak to that vet you want in the morning!

lab lover
03-29-2009, 09:14 PM
Ok I checked the urine she has a trace ketone and 2,000 on the glucose I forgot to mentioned when I fed her I gave her some sweet potatoes too. I probrably killed my dog tonight.

We Hope
03-29-2009, 09:16 PM
Ida,

You have not killed Baby! What you need to do is to call the ER that's 90 minutes away and tell them what you have in blood glucose reading and that Baby has a trace reading of urine ketones.

You may have to take her there, depending on what they say. But Baby IS NOT going to die from this. If she needs to go to the ER, you will get there in plenty of time and they will be able to help her.

lab lover
03-29-2009, 09:19 PM
I am sitting here crying I can't believed this is happening I have always checked and double checked everything - the sweet potates probrably made it worst. My son just checked her for me again it is 377 at 11:20 do you think she will be all right. I am so worried.

We Hope
03-29-2009, 09:20 PM
Ida,

Is that a typo--you posted 377?

It wasn't a good idea with the sweet potatoes--lots of glucose and a complex carb (potatoes) a lot of diabetics have problems with.

If the 377 isn't a typo, Baby's bg's are now on the way down.

lab lover
03-29-2009, 09:25 PM
We just checked the urine again with the lighting it is hard to tell but, on the second time it looked more beige in color which is neg for keytone

We Hope
03-29-2009, 09:27 PM
Was the bg reading 377?

lab lover
03-29-2009, 09:29 PM
No that's the reading we got at 11:20 I will keep checking her all night. I will never give her sweet potatoes or steak again. I noticed on the Solid gold dog food it had sweet potatoes in it so I wasn't to worried. Here the feed store closed early on Sat so that's why I didn't have the new dog food to feed her but, this vet is confusing me terrible. I need to talk to the owner of vet clinic.

lab lover
03-29-2009, 09:33 PM
So if she keep going down in her levels should I wait to feed and give her the shot (she gets food and shot between 6:30-7am) I can't get a hold of the vet till 9am. I only have dry dog food and chicken, stringbeans in the house can I give that with her insulin (17) remenber I up it pm so should I give her the same dosage tomor in am.

k9diabetes
03-29-2009, 09:37 PM
Take a deep breath Ida! Baby is fine. One day of blood sugar in the 400s is far from the end of the world. She stayed very steady, which is good - didn't go any higher than where she started at meal time.

Realistically, blood sugar varies enough moment to moment that 403 and 425 are pretty much exactly the same. That small a difference is not significant. So her blood sugar basically stayed flat and then started to drop.

Just need to get back onto the normal routine right away.

Winging it with the food introduces so many variables that it's just not even worth worrying about what was good or bad for her blood sugar. You just want to avoid having to wing it - that's the best.

The most important thing you will need right now is to keep things as consistent as possible and work out a plan with the vet that changes just one thing at a time and provides for 5-7 days to evaluate what

You will worry least if you settle into a routine amount of the same kind of food and insulin every day and stick with it.

Natalie

lab lover
03-29-2009, 09:42 PM
Natalie

I just checked my notes when I was talking to the vet I have written down simple carbs - so either I am not hearing too good or someone made a big mistake. I called the ER and they said if her levels are going down not too worry. In this town I don't think too many people worried about anything.

lab lover
03-29-2009, 09:49 PM
That's the problem one call's me and changes the food and the other one call's and changes the dosage. I need to get this straighten out tomor they are the one's that are confusing me. I hate the thought of changing vets again but, I will if I have too the next one is in Knoxville 1 hour or more away from us. I want to thank you so so much for helping I just get very nervous and not knowing enough drives me crazy. Thank you so much again. I am going back to what I was feeding her until I get ans from the vet. Baby thanks you too for having a nutty mom. I guess my age is gettng to me as I get older I seem too worried too much about everything. Have a good night and I will let yu know how she is in the am. Ida

We Hope
03-29-2009, 09:54 PM
Ida,

First thing I would do tomorrow is to insist on a word with the owner of the hospital.

Baby had possibly a trace of ketones--that's not so serious as when you get into things like moderate and high.

I don't believe you would mistake hearing "simple" when someone else said "complex"--they don't even sound alike. ;)

You're going to need to feed her what you have in the morning and stick with the 17 units until you get a chance to talk with the head vet.

I would continue checking Baby's urine to see if she's now negative for the ketones.

And before the sun sets tomorrow evening, I would have a plan for Baby worked out with the head vet for both what she should be eating, how much of it, and whether you should stay with 17 units or not.

Then I think Baby's on the right track because there will be only you and one doctor to manage things for her. I would simply tell him that either we can work this one out with you handling Baby's care or I will need to see someone else who's willing to do it this way with me.

Kathy

Adding here--I used to go through the same thing with my mother when she was hospitalized with the residents. Every one had a different tune to play. I just told them I needed to hear what they were saying from her attending. Solved MANY problems like that because he had something entirely different to say. :)

lab lover
03-30-2009, 01:44 AM
I'm back up and it is 3:30 am she was whimpering so I checked her bg is is 384 so it went back up again. I can't get her out to go bathroom it is so cold and she won't go. I know she is uncomfortable and I feel bad for it I should of asked more questions. I took care of my mom for seven yrs and she passed away at 91 she was bedridden with a feeding tube, catheret, arthiritis, many more problem and I ran the shipped when it came to doctor's, test and being in the hospital if I didn't think something was right and I didn't feel she needed a test, or medication that would make her worse I spoke up - so I can't understand why I am not dealing with this so good. (They always would marvel how wonderful my mom was doing for her aged and said I did a good job) and now I can't even figured this out for my dog.

I went through a couple of vet's when we lived in Miami, (wished we were still back there) so I guess I will have to do it here too. Hopefully he will understand even if I went to his co-worker first I don't think that matters. I have my own problems losing a leg in a car accident 35 yrs ago and I have to go to Miami, on April 9th to see a doctor and I am afraid I may have to cancelled if I can't get her regulated or at least stable by then because my husband doesn't worry like I do, and he doesn't understand the consequences if food and shots are not on time checking her regularly. I am always around if something medical had too be done for the dogs but, this time I need to be gone for five days. Keep your fingers across I can get through to this vet to helped me out. Thanks again, Ida

eyelostit
03-30-2009, 04:33 PM
Ida, sorry you had such a rough nite, Baby did eventually go down with her bg, that's good. Don't get too down on yourself, this takes some time to understand, and with 2 vets telling you two different things, I'd be a wreck also.

I found the 2 books I mentioned to you on Amazon, I just went there.
The first is the Dogs Diets and Diseases book, great section on canine diabetes.

http://www.amazon.com/Dogs-Diet-Disease-Diabetes-Pancreatitis/dp/0967225329/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238451620&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Dogs-Diet-Disease-Diabetes-Pancreatitis/dp/0967225329/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238451620&sr=1-1)

This is the Carbohydrate Counter book
http://www.amazon.com/NutriBase-Nutrition-Facts-Desk-Reference/dp/1583330011/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238452642&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/NutriBase-Nutrition-Facts-Desk-Reference/dp/1583330011/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238452642&sr=1-1)
You can get free shipping on orders of 25.00, don't know if this is still the same, check out the used books also, sometimes its cheaper to go that way.

Also Check Ebay sometimes they are even cheaper there.

Dolly

lab lover
03-30-2009, 05:15 PM
I will checked them out tomorrow - thanks Dolly sounds liked they will helped me a lot.

lab lover
03-30-2009, 06:13 PM
Thank you both for helping last night I was such a wreck I hope you both understand I am not adjusting to Baby having diabetes yet and when I see the high's and low's I get depressed that it will never end or I am doing something wrong. Everyone is picking up on all the knowledge you give them and I still get confused.

Baby started out with 334 this morning at 7:30
1:00pm 209
2:30pm 179
4pm 205
6pm 307

Just wanted to update you on what the vet said he recommended that I keep her on the 17 units, feed her 1/2 can solid gold, 3/4 dry, 1/2 cup of chicken and 1/4 cup of string beans. I did mentioned to him I would liked to asked for him because of the confusion between both vets - (per my post last night) he is there 5 days and off on Thurs so this will make it a lot easier for me to get a hold of him. I also brought her urine up and when he called me she had no keytone's, but, very high in glucose - I forgot to asked the number but, will get a copy tomorr. Now she has too be on antibotics for another two wks he is concerned she will get another UTI, she only had till thurs to get off of them and now we start all over again.

Maybe, I am checking her too much and that is making me so nervous when I see the high range but, than I think if I don't checked her she could dropped like she did last wk. I have gone thru one vial and maybe 15 left in another vial of the alpha strips so I need to start using the Relion monitor or I will be going broke. It is such a shame they charged so much for those strips with the Alpha Track I can do it under a min but, with the other one it takes me a lot longer and I get frustrated.

Hopefully this food will worked out and the 17 units will helped her levels all I know is I did not sleep at all and Baby was snoozing the whole time. Maybe, in time I will be secured enough to adjust her food and be able to figured out what is making the high's and the low's. I had time to read some of the post and I did not realized that the heat and cold made a difference in the levels. It gets really hot in the valley here in the summer so I will not be walking her till the evening. Also, I have to start her on Frontline soon and wonder if that bother's the diabetes since last yr she was ok and thru the winter here no need for it but, soon the flea's and ticks will be around. Also, I used Heartguard Plus, for the heart worms and when I was looking over her readings I noticed the day after I gave her the pill that was the day she dropped to 70 does the heartguard plus aggravate the diabetes?

Just wanted to say thanks again sorry I was such neurotic last night. Have a good night. Ida

peggy0
03-30-2009, 06:44 PM
Ida, I still panic over lows and worry that Forbin may be too low and I'm not checking him. You don't need to apologize as we have all been through it!! I have now learned when to expect Forbins lows and if I'm concerned I'll test him at those times. Peace of mind is a must. Any change with food or meds kind of throws it all up in the air somewhat and we have to figure it out again. The folks here will help at all times! I've sent out plenty of SOS. Hope baby and you have a peaceful night.

We Hope
03-30-2009, 08:06 PM
Ida,

First of all, congratulations on having "landed" a permanent vet! :D This is going to make this a lot less stressful!

I can see where he's coming from with the worry about the UTI; when you have the higher bg's and the sugar goes into the urine, it's a great breeding ground for bacteria.

On the AlphaTrak, what you're saying about the cost of the strips is what I've heard everyone who uses it say--they're expensive, moreso than the strips for the human meters. This is why you see a lot of people here say they use their human meter for "everyday" testing. I think when you use the ReliOn meter more, as you're going to do to save $, you'll get just as comfortable with that as you are with the AlphaTrak.

If you want to walk Baby in the summer and not have to be confined to the evenings, you could try for early mornings before it gets hot, or you could take a shorter walk during the day if it's warm.

With the flea and heartworm preventions, when you have a problem, every one I knew about (including my own) had high, not low, bg's from them. This doesn't happen to every dog with diabetes who uses either or both types of prevention--only some. I don't think the Heartguard affects Baby in the least--otherwise you would have never seen the 70.

Baby is doing a nice job of coming down from her high bg's of last night; it takes about 2-3 days for those bg's to "settle" down again to normal levels after a high. Being consistent with your insulin dose is what gets them back into line once more.

When you saw something that wasn't right, you were absolutely right to ask questions as you did last night! ;)

Kathy

eyelostit
03-30-2009, 08:30 PM
Hi,

I'd use the Relion Meter, it will show any lows, I use this more than the Alphtrak.

eyelostit
03-30-2009, 08:52 PM
Copied from Ida's post, Need to see this by itself for Baby, 17 units this AM and tonight

"Baby started out with 334 this morning at 7:30
1:00pm 209
2:30pm 179
4pm 205
6pm 307

Just wanted to update you on what the vet said he recommended that I keep her on the 17 units, feed her 1/2 can solid gold, 3/4 dry, 1/2 cup of chicken and 1/4 cup of string beans. "

food was decreased to 3/4 C per the vet

Tonight readings

307 at fast 6:00 pm
257 at 8:00
215 at 10:00 pm
211 at 11:00 pm

Dolly

k9diabetes
03-30-2009, 08:53 PM
Perhaps invest in a OneTouch Ultra. It even got a good review from the UCD Vet Teaching Hospital...


ACVIM 2008 Abstract

Evaluation of Six Portable Blood Glucose Meters in Dogs.
T. Cohen, R. Nelson, P. Kass, E. Feldman
School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis

The purpose of this study was to evaluate six portable blood glucose meters (PBGMs) - AlphaTrak, OneTouch, Elite XL, AccuChek, Precision, Contour - for use in dogs. One hundred fifty-eight venous blood samples were asayed for glucose using all PBGMs in randomized order and by a reference hexokinase method. Results from the PBGMs and reference hexokinase method (HM) were compared.

HM blood glucose concentrations ranged from 41 to 639 mg/dl. There was excellent correlation between PBGMs and HM results (table). Results were consistently low for 4 PBGMs compared with HM results. High and low results were common with the AlphaTrak. The difference in results between PBGMs and HM increased as blood glucose concentrations increased. Difference in results between PBGM and HM were significantly (p<0.0001) less for the AlphaTrak and OneTouch and significantly (p<0.01) higher for the Contour compared with other PBGMs. Problems with correct identification of hypoglycemia (<70 mg/dl), normoglycemia (70-120 mg/dl), and hyperglycemia (>200 mg/dl) varied between PBGMs (table).

Percent Incorrect from Reference Range
AlphaTrak -- 18
OneTouch -- 21
EliteXL -- 45
AccuChek -- 45
Precision -- 49
Contour -- 73


Results of this study support use of the AlphaTrak and OneTouch glucose meters based on significantly closer results with HM.


I bought strips from www.hocks.com (http://www.hocks.com) and they currently run about 70 cents each. There are undoubtedly less expensive deals around for them.

k9diabetes
03-30-2009, 09:00 PM
Those numbers tonight look good Ida!

lab lover
03-31-2009, 03:32 AM
Update on Baby - per eyelostit post

At 11pm last night I decided to give Baby 1/4 cup of dry food and teaspoon of dog food I was concerned she was dropping so fast and in the middle of the night she could have gone under 100 while we were sleeping. I woke up at 4am to test her she was 453. Does this mean either it was the increase in the dosage (17units) or deleting 1/4 cup of dry food and adding 1/2 can dog food. One night I am worried that she is so high after her feeding and shot, and than the next night she is dropping so low so fast.

This is the first time she started too drop after the feeding and shot that fast.

Maybe, she doesn't need that extra unit he recommended. Help!

Ida

At 6:00am Baby's reading dropped too 346 - also last night after her 8pm reading I put some antibotic ointment on her pads - they were getting so red from all the testing could that have gave me an error in the reading at 10 and 11pm? I usually cleaned her elbow pads after every reading with peroxide too.

peggy0
03-31-2009, 05:56 AM
I'll leave it to the experts, but I wouldn't have given her food and left it alone. After the 11p reading, her BGs would probably have gone up some given it was passed the first peak for the insulin.

We Hope
03-31-2009, 06:22 AM
Ida,

I'd say the insulin's fine and the bg's were from the extra food. When you feed "off schedule" as happened here, you can affect the timing of the insulin; when that happens, it can't do its proper job. In addition to Baby's weight, the dose of insulin is calculated with consideration of the amount of food she is to eat in a day.

The same thing happens to people when they eat more than their diet calls for. Their insulin doses are also based on weight and amount of food. When people with diabetes eat more than their insulin dose "covers", they're going to have higher bg's from it.

If you see a real low--like you did the other day when Baby was at 60--then it's time to go with extra food. Otherwise, you're not letting the insulin do its job in the way it's supposed to.

Kathy

Margaret Boyle
03-31-2009, 06:41 AM
Thank you both for helping last night I was such a wreck I hope you both understand I am not adjusting to Baby having diabetes yet and when I see the high's and low's I get depressed that it will never end or I am doing something wrong. Everyone is picking up on all the knowledge you give them and I still get confused.

Baby started out with 334 this morning at 7:30
1:00pm 209
2:30pm 179
4pm 205
6pm 307

Just wanted to update you on what the vet said he recommended that I keep her on the 17 units, feed her 1/2 can solid gold, 3/4 dry, 1/2 cup of chicken and 1/4 cup of string beans. I did mentioned to him I would liked to asked for him because of the confusion between both vets - (per my post last night) he is there 5 days and off on Thurs so this will make it a lot easier for me to get a hold of him. I also brought her urine up and when he called me she had no keytone's, but, very high in glucose - I forgot to asked the number but, will get a copy tomorr. Now she has too be on antibotics for another two wks he is concerned she will get another UTI, she only had till thurs to get off of them and now we start all over again.

Maybe, I am checking her too much and that is making me so nervous when I see the high range but, than I think if I don't checked her she could dropped like she did last wk. I have gone thru one vial and maybe 15 left in another vial of the alpha strips so I need to start using the Relion monitor or I will be going broke. It is such a shame they charged so much for those strips with the Alpha Track I can do it under a min but, with the other one it takes me a lot longer and I get frustrated.

Hopefully this food will worked out and the 17 units will helped her levels all I know is I did not sleep at all and Baby was snoozing the whole time. Maybe, in time I will be secured enough to adjust her food and be able to figured out what is making the high's and the low's. I had time to read some of the post and I did not realized that the heat and cold made a difference in the levels. It gets really hot in the valley here in the summer so I will not be walking her till the evening. Also, I have to start her on Frontline soon and wonder if that bother's the diabetes since last yr she was ok and thru the winter here no need for it but, soon the flea's and ticks will be around. Also, I used Heartguard Plus, for the heart worms and when I was looking over her readings I noticed the day after I gave her the pill that was the day she dropped to 70 does the heartguard plus aggravate the diabetes?

Just wanted to say thanks again sorry I was such neurotic last night. Have a good night. Ida

Hi Ida, I know how you feel I have been on this roller coaster for over a year now and I think we may be beginning to get somewhere now with Lucy;)
You are doing really well I wish I had came to this forum a year ago. I think you have coped really well with Baby you should be proud of yourself.
"Well Done Ida" :D:D

k9diabetes
03-31-2009, 06:51 AM
I'm a bit confused by your saying that the numbers were dropping so fast. They were very stable last night - absolutely lovely.

Tonight readings

307 at fast 6:00 pm
257 at 8:00
215 at 10:00 pm
211 at 11:00 pm

She dropped just under 100 points in five hours. And the peak of the insulin is usually around six hours.

This was a really lovely curve and I definitely would not have given any more food.

The thing is... the most important thing right now is for you to get on a regimen that you can stick with every single day. You will never be able to get Baby regulated if you are constantly varying how much food she gets because you're panicking about the possibility of a low. She had 130 points she could have dropped and still been perfectly safe.

I know the experience the other day scared you. If you just can't let her be on 17 units, go back to 16 and live with any higher blood sugars that causes because the only way to sort this out is to pick a plan and stick with it.

My feeling is that you are overreacting out of fear and if you don't find a plan that prevents you from doing that, you will have Baby bouncing around all over the place.

We have a tendency here, I think, to underemphasize the value of consistency, especially in the beginning, because some experienced members do a lot of variation with their dogs' diets and insulin. That is something that should be done only after you have achieved regulation and something changes that needs correcting and, most importantly, one has a lot of experience with their dog's diabetes. It is not something that should be done in the beginning.

The only way to regulate Baby is to settle into a routine that does not have to be varied for a week or two - NO lows, no panicking about potential lows - and watch and see what the blood sugar, food, and insulin do together. That often means that at times the blood sugar is higher than you would like and that's not only okay, it's necessary. A little high blood sugar at this point is not the end of the world. It's far less dangerous than a constantly varying day to day amount of food and insulin.

So, Ida, you have to choose a plan you can stick to. I think those blood sugar numbers were absolutely beautiful and things should have been left alone. If you can't do that, then you need to drop the insulin a unit so that you don't try to correct something that may not have ever happened.

I know you feel overwhelmed. You have been bounced around by several vets and also some conflicting advice here and privately... You need to settle on one voice to listen to and in this case I think it should be your vet. We are here to answer questions and to help you respond to a low blood sugar if it occurs and to provide you with information. But I think it's been detrimental for you to try to merge all these different voices together. You've chosen a vet, you've formulated a plan with him, and aside from dropping the insulin dose to an amount you can live with, you should follow that plan and work with him to get Baby regulated. If her blood sugar goes low, truly low - not potentially low - then the plan needs modification. Otherwise, you should stick with it.

I don't mean to sound harsh and I really do understand how overwhelming this is. You are very very new at this, especially given all the conflicting vet stuff you've been through. That has made this very difficult. I think you've made some progress though and can work with this vet to get to where you want to be with Baby.

Natalie

eyelostit
03-31-2009, 06:27 PM
I think everything will be fine with Baby now, now that you have the one vet to work with, he saw your bg figures today. Keep the food the same and the insulin the same, with all the changes that were made by the vets recently, its no wonder you can get confused.

I think you'll be ok now.:)

dolly

peggy0
03-31-2009, 07:41 PM
Hi Ida

Hows baby today?

lab lover
04-01-2009, 12:36 PM
I'm a bit confused by your saying that the numbers were dropping so fast. They were very stable last night - absolutely lovely.

Tonight readings

307 at fast 6:00 pm
257 at 8:00
215 at 10:00 pm
211 at 11:00 pm

She dropped just under 100 points in five hours. And the peak of the insulin is usually around six hours.

This was a really lovely curve and I definitely would not have given any more food.

The thing is... the most important thing right now is for you to get on a regimen that you can stick with every single day. You will never be able to get Baby regulated if you are constantly varying how much food she gets because you're panicking about the possibility of a low. She had 130 points she could have dropped and still been perfectly safe.

I know the experience the other day scared you. If you just can't let her be on 17 units, go back to 16 and live with any higher blood sugars that causes because the only way to sort this out is to pick a plan and stick with it.

My feeling is that you are overreacting out of fear and if you don't find a plan that prevents you from doing that, you will have Baby bouncing around all over the place.

We have a tendency here, I think, to underemphasize the value of consistency, especially in the beginning, because some experienced members do a lot of variation with their dogs' diets and insulin. That is something that should be done only after you have achieved regulation and something changes that needs correcting and, most importantly, one has a lot of experience with their dog's diabetes. It is not something that should be done in the beginning.

The only way to regulate Baby is to settle into a routine that does not have to be varied for a week or two - NO lows, no panicking about potential lows - and watch and see what the blood sugar, food, and insulin do together. That often means that at times the blood sugar is higher than you would like and that's not only okay, it's necessary. A little high blood sugar at this point is not the end of the world. It's far less dangerous than a constantly varying day to day amount of food and insulin.

So, Ida, you have to choose a plan you can stick to. I think those blood sugar numbers were absolutely beautiful and things should have been left alone. If you can't do that, then you need to drop the insulin a unit so that you don't try to correct something that may not have ever happened.

I know you feel overwhelmed. You have been bounced around by several vets and also some conflicting advice here and privately... You need to settle on one voice to listen to and in this case I think it should be your vet. We are here to answer questions and to help you respond to a low blood sugar if it occurs and to provide you with information. But I think it's been detrimental for you to try to merge all these different voices together. You've chosen a vet, you've formulated a plan with him, and aside from dropping the insulin dose to an amount you can live with, you should follow that plan and work with him to get Baby regulated. If her blood sugar goes low, truly low - not potentially low - then the plan needs modification. Otherwise, you should stick with it.

I don't mean to sound harsh and I really do understand how overwhelming this is. You are very very new at this, especially given all the conflicting vet stuff you've been through. That has made this very difficult. I think you've made some progress though and can work with this vet to get to where you want to be with Baby.

Natalie

Well, I just explained everything in detail too you and lost it because I forgot to checked the box when I sign in - so here it is again -

Tues

346 - 6am
7:30 shot and food 17 units
331 10 am
156 12:30
217 3:30
372 6:15

7:30 shot and food 17 units
9pm 384
11pm 344

Wed 7:30 - food and shot checked her and she was
303
204 at Noon

I will checked her again around 4 and before she eats and one time before bedtime. I think I am checking her too much and I see high's and low's and I am not letting the insulin do it job. The vet agree I didn't really need to give her the food on Mon she would of been fine but, when I saw the 211 I think oh no she going to dropped below 100 like that other day.

So I have too learned don't panic so much - he thinks she is doing much better keep giving her the same food and 17 units and checked back in with him on Friday - I feel a lot better because he takes my calls and spoke with me in detail when I didn't even have an appt - I just stopped by to picked up the antibotics for the next two wks. Natalie, I understand what you are saying and I don't think your being harsh either - just give it time too work and stick to the plan which I am doing and not worrying about her high's and low's because it was making me sick and nervous all the time. This is such a learning experienced and I said that to the vet -his reply was it's liked an art and you have to master it - it just takes time and he thought I was doing fine and just relaxed a bit. My husband picked up the treats Newman Own so we will be giving her two a day at shot time - she misses her dog biscuits.

I'll be in touch to let you all know how she is doing - thank you everyone on the board couldn't have gone thru this with out everyone's help. Ida:)

Fishslayer
04-01-2009, 01:04 PM
I feel your pain. I KNOW I need to be patient, but sometimes...well, sometimes I'm better at it than other times...;)

Rick

Cara's Mom
04-01-2009, 01:21 PM
I know what you're talking about! It is a learing experience for sure! But it will get better, however that will take a little time and it just cannot be forced:(:(. I speak from experience, but I made it! And so will you ;)!
Hang in there!!!

Margaret Boyle
04-01-2009, 01:25 PM
Ida,
I wish I could get Lucy's numbers to where you are Lucy was down at 70mg
today with no ill effects I did give her some extra food but she is also having big spikes. I see the vet on Frid to go through everything. So you calm yourself down Ida you have great numbers. :D

LOL

peggy0
04-01-2009, 03:14 PM
you might want to try to give them to her at noon when she seems to be at her lowest just in case they raise it a bit :)

k9diabetes
04-01-2009, 08:57 PM
Ida,

I'm really really encouraged by the responses you have been getting from this vet! :) That is real progress for both you and Baby to have someone you can work with - some of us never found a vet like that for our diabetic dogs. So congratulations!!

You know, I sound real calm about things now but I should 'fess up to my panic story so you will know that I haven't always been so relaxed about diabetes...

When Chris' blood sugar was totally out of control and he was feeling absolutely lousy, way back in 2004, I was home alone one night cuz my husband was working nights and Chris was miserable and I was so worried about him. I reached over to pet him and felt this huge bump on the top of his head that I had never noticed before. I could not stop myself, even though part of me knew it was crazy, from paging the on-call vet at 11pm to ask her if he could have injured his skull... I know... I know... I was just a wreck and I felt bad while I was doing it but I burst into tears on the phone because I was so stressed.

She, bless her heart, pretended it was a real concern and possibility and said he "could" have bumped it on something and caused some swelling there. I'm sure she hung up the phone, rolling her eyes and cursing me for getting her out of bed for that!!

The next day I looked at a picture of dogs' skulls (why I didn't do this before paging her....) and of course, the bump is perfectly natural and Chris, who I had lived with for nine years, had always had it.

So, you see, we are all prone to panic attacks when we are new at this and worried sick about our beautiful dog.

Natalie

BaileyBear
04-02-2009, 12:37 AM
I reached over to pet him and felt this huge bump on the top of his head that I had never noticed before...

...The next day I looked at a picture of dogs' skulls (why I didn't do this before paging her....) and of course, the bump is perfectly natural and Chris, who I had lived with for nine years, had always had it.

So, you see, we are all prone to panic attacks when we are new at this and worried sick about our beautiful dog.

Natalie


:o :o :o

I haven't paged the vet, but I have questioned my husband & daughter about a bazillion times lately regarding a big bump on top of Bailey's head!! They both think I have lost my flipping mind and insist his head has always been that way. I just can't wrap my brain around the idea that something that seems SOOOO hyper noticeable to me now, could have possibly always been there. I've been the same way about his rib cage lately. With the extra padding he was carrying around for a while, I guess I'm not used to seeing any bones anywhere, lol.

We've all been there to some degree, Ida. You and Baby are going to be fine. :)

Erin <------ who will be taking her cues from Natalie and googling images of dog skulls to shake this bizarre concern once and for all...before I drag Bailey back to the vet and watch him laugh at me and tell me a need a vacation. :rolleyes:

peggy0
04-02-2009, 05:01 AM
when forbin lost 8 pounds after first being diagnosed, that bump became much more noticeable and I too asked the vet why he had this bump in his head :) now that he's gained his weight back, its magically unnoticed.

lab lover
04-02-2009, 09:56 PM
Baby's Readings

Wed's
303 7:30 Food and shot

204 Noon
191 4:30
221 6:45
7:30 food and 17 units
286 11pm

I think she did very well today and I was pleased.

Thurs

403 7:15 am before food and shot
81 Noon
137 1pm
263 2pm
283 3pm
390 7pm
Food and Shot at 7:15 17 units

When she was low I gave her 2 small Newman biscuits and it brought it up.
I called the vet too let her know we are having a really hard time to get her to eat the can dog food and my husband informed me this afternoon that he only gave her a quarter of can instead of half in the a, because she doesn't like it. I told him this is probrably why she dropped so much from the am. I try stressing to him he cannot just changed the amount like that and think it will not effect her readings. He spoils her more than I do - but, when it comes to the food we have to stick to the diet. When I went to buy more dog food Solid Gold today they were out of the one kind that she likes a little so now until next Thursday we have to give her the one with Turkey, fish, barley. The vet said I could changed to a different one but, she really doesn't like either one and we have to hand feed her too eat.

She spoke of changing her to a w/d prescription diet when she is regulated with a highfiber diet. My vet I usually speakto wasn't working today. I also picked up two cans of Wellness dog food that is very simairlar to Solid Gold - we have no choice to change the dog food since he will not get it for a week.

She was eating better with the 1 cup dry, 1/2cup beans, 1 cup of chicken, when we started but, the vet said she needed more food and moisture, with some fiber. I also am adding 1/2 teaspoon of Metamucil twice a day now to give her more fiber. How long does it take to get them to eat with out hand feeding and begging them even whe she has good numbers in the am she does not want to eat. She always ate only one meal in the evening - and that took forever she would wait for Nico too eat and then sneak in and eat her food an hour later.

I was pleased that I didn't panic with the 80 and the dog biscuit helped - still can't figured out why she went that low - I needed too go to the doctor's and I didn't want my husband too worry with her being low and with me being gone for a while so hopefully I did the right thing. The vet said it was ok. If anyone can help me with this food problem I think we could really get her regulated - I hate the feedings times it is so stressfull.

She is always eating grass constantly even before she got diabetes so she has a sensitive stomach and everything bothers it. Also, being on antibotics a month isn't helping her stomach I always give it to her right after feeding so she has a full stomach. how long did it take everyone do get their dog diet where they would just chomp it down every day - that would be liked winning the lottery for us - it would make my day.

I forgot who mentioned on the board about getting a accucheck monitor they are really close in range with the alpha track - when I checked them out today they had three different kinds (all on sale good prices) but, the strips ran almost as much as the alpha strips. I tried looking for the post and couldn't find it so if yu can post which acucheck I would appreciate I could save on these alpha strips and not used them so much. Oh, one more questioned has anyone tried lamb dog food Solid gold has a lamb, sweet potatoes, barly. This Solid gold does have sweet potatoe in all there cans but, the vet is still saying it is ok too feed her that food. I will checked in tomorrow hopefully too say she loved her breakfast in the am. Ida

peggy0
04-03-2009, 05:13 AM
Wow Ida this looks great!!! Congratulations. Glad the biscuits worked at lunch time. I really hope baby likes her food. Antibiotics do tricky things. I never want to eat when I have to take them.

lab lover
04-03-2009, 11:20 AM
I gave her the chicken Wellness dog food this morning and she liked it much better - at 7am her reading was 393 and after feeding and shot around 11:30 she was 176 so hopefully we are getting there I don't feel so stressed out like I was - my friends in Miami, think I am nuts because none of them have a dog so they can't relate to what I am going through. Ida

BaileyBear
04-03-2009, 11:52 AM
Very happy to hear she liked the new food and that 176 is beautiful! :D

I'm glad those Newman's biscuits are working so well for her, too. I found out they come in 2 sizes, so we have both now. He gets the larger heart as his "bedtime biscuit" and then I give him the smaller ones as post injection treats. Since the Newman's don't bring Bailey's BG up, I have a box of Milk Bones around as a "carb him up" treat before things like car rides. ;)

lab lover
04-03-2009, 11:38 PM
Very happy to hear she liked the new food and that 176 is beautiful! :D

I'm glad those Newman's biscuits are working so well for her, too. I found out they come in 2 sizes, so we have both now. He gets the larger heart as his "bedtime biscuit" and then I give him the smaller ones as post injection treats. Since the Newman's don't bring Bailey's BG up, I have a box of Milk Bones around as a "carb him up" treat before things like car rides. ;)

Should I checked Baby after one of the small biscuits maybe a hr later to see if it brings her bg's up - I never thought about it because it is such a small biscuits is that how yu found out that they are ok for Bailey? Also, when we do take her for a ride she does drop lower & when we get home I check her and sometimes she will drop a 100 points depending how long the ride is so I guess I will keep the milk bones in house for that too. Thanks,Ida

lab lover
04-03-2009, 11:49 PM
7:30 - 363
10:30 - 176
1:30 -128
3:30 -140
6:00pm -266
1am 372

I stayed up late so I thought I would checked her and see how she is doing sometimes she will have a low reading around 12 or 1 and some nights she has a high reading. What causes this I measured the food and same dose of insulin.
Tonight I opened a new bottle and I think I mixed it a little too much and I noticed some bubbles on the top - when I read the directions they said if there are bubbles or some froth it would interfere with the dosage - could that be why she is so high at 1am. Just wished I could reason this out in my mind I know she will never have a good reading everyday but, want to make sure I am doing everything right too. I also was checking the video of how to give an injection and to me it looks like you inject the needle in the part of skin you are pinching I always inject her right under it. I pulled the skin and pinch it up and inject it right into the flat skin area. Let me know if this is the wrong way of doing it. Thanks, for your help. Baby is so happy about the biscuits because we couldn't find any without a lot of carbs. She thanks you.

peggy0
04-04-2009, 06:33 AM
Hi Ida

I give Forbin his shot in the same place as you do. I think you are fine there. I assume when you 'mix' the insulin you are slowly rolling it between your hands, not shaking the bottle.

When forbins BG goes under 100, his readings are higher for the next couple of days. I believe the experts can explain how the body can detect a drop and pour glucose back in to help itself. Maybe that's what is happening here. Also, you didn't say when you gave the biscuits.

I think she's fine.

lab lover
04-04-2009, 06:53 AM
Hi Ida

I give Forbin his shot in the same place as you do. I think you are fine there. I assume when you 'mix' the insulin you are slowly rolling it between your hands, not shaking the bottle.

When forbins BG goes under 100, his readings are higher for the next couple of days. I believe the experts can explain how the body can detect a drop and pour glucose back in to help itself. Maybe that's what is happening here. Also, you didn't say when you gave the biscuits.

I think she's fine.

Hi Peggy,

I give Baby a biscuit after every shot and one before she goes too bed. I am being careful how I rolled the insulin bottle so not too get many air bubbles in the bottle and if I do I wait till they settled down before I draw the insulin. Take care and thanks for helping. Ida

We Hope
04-04-2009, 07:57 AM
Ida,

You might have gotten some of the bubbles in the syringe. When that happens, the air takes the place of some of the insulin, so you get a little less than a full dose. If you do see bubbles in the syringe barrel, you can "shoot" the dose back into the vial and draw it again without harming the insulin.

When you roll the insulin to re-suspend it, put the vial between the palms of your hands and roll it back and forth between them. What you want to see happen to the insulin is that the vial becomes evenly cloudy. The "white stuff" you see is the insulin itself and you want that to be thoroughly mixed together with the suspension (clear liquid).

Since you just opened this vial last night, if you see that Baby's still running high today, I would take the insulin back to W-M and ask for a new vial--they should replace it without charge. There are times you get "bad" vials; when that happens, they don't do the job of lowering bg's properly.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/petdiabetes/images/c/cc/Propinj.jpg

This is what it looks like when you're giving a shot right by pulling up the skin. When you place the needle into the skin higher up, you run the risk of literally "shooting through" it.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/petdiabetes/images/a/a2/Improp.jpg

Here you see what I mean. If the shot was given like this, the insulin would go into the air--not into the dog. See how much higher up the "tent" the needle is placed for the wrong way and how close to the base of the skin it is in the right one.

You also need to remember not to give the shot at the same place all the time because that can thicken the skin in that area; thicker skin doesn't absorb insulin very well and that can mean higher bg's. This is called rotating the injection site.

I always gave the morning shot on the right side and the evening one on the left. Doesn't matter if you do it mornings left and nights right, but it keeps you from injecting into the same place all the time.

After we had Caninsulin/Vetsulin, I followed their advice about giving the shots from the shoulders back to the tail but staying away from the spine. For me, having an area to "work" like this let me go up and down Lucky's body with the shots, making sure I didn't get them into the same spot along it.

If you're staying with the scruff or anyplace else, if you make sure that the next shot you give is the space of two fingers laid on Baby's skin apart from where you gave the last one, you won't be giving shots in the same area to make the skin thicker (less insulin absorption).

OK--there are more variables than we can count which influence someone's bg's--people or pets. Levels of hormones in the body rise and fall--it's part of the way it works. If you took blood every day and did full panels on it, you would see that the levels of things like cortisol vary a little. If you're healthy, they would be within the normal range for it, but they wouldn't be the same each day, just as different things happen in the course of daily living. All of that can influence one's bg's.

Everyone has his or her own personal body "definition" of what low is, and what will trigger the counter-regulatory hormones to signal for glucose to be released into the body. You can have a low and not go into rebound, but this rebound explanation is also a good one for what happens when you get to a low that triggers these hormones to act.

http://www.vetsulin.com/vet/Monitoring_Somogyi.aspx

An insulin dose that is too high may bring about the Somogyi effect or rebound hyperglycemia. This is produced because blood glucose concentrations fall too rapidly. The moment that the Somogyi effect is triggered is very individual – it is a life-saving response.

The body attempts to counteract the decline in the blood glucose concentration through a chain of reactions:

The blood glucose concentration falls rapidly, or approaches hypoglycemia (blood glucose concentrations of less than 50 mg/dL [5 mmol/L]) following the injection of insulin. The animal becomes hungry and either restless or lethargic.

In response to a declining blood glucose concentration in the CNS, adrenaline and subsequently cortisol, glucagon and growth hormone are released.
These hormones bring about an increase in the blood glucose concentration (through gluconeogenesis, release of glucose from hepatic glycogen and increased peripheral resistance to insulin).

The resultant hyperglycemia produces polyuria and polydipsia. This can easily be misinterpreted as caused by an inadequate insulin dose.

We had a little guy on another board who would have problems every time his bg's went down to 85. When this happened, he would have all the symptoms of a hypo but when you checked his bg's, they would not be in hypo/low range. His diabetes was very well controlled and easy to control; the decision for him was to slightly decrease his insulin so that while he remained in very good bg levels, it kept him away from getting close to 85.

On the other hand, we had Lucky, who stayed low and tight and would be at 85 about 8-10 hours after breakfast and morning insulin, who was feeling great at that level and never had a hypo.

Nobody with diabetes can make today a photocopy of yesterday or duplicate today for tomorrow. There's always going to be some variance, but when the things you aren't happy to see keep appearing as a pattern, that's when you need to think about making changes. People who start "chasing" numbers wind up in trouble because they're always trying to "fix" something that really isn't broken. ;)

Kathy

lab lover
04-04-2009, 10:55 AM
Ida,

You might have gotten some of the bubbles in the syringe. When that happens, the air takes the place of some of the insulin, so you get a little less than a full dose. If you do see bubbles in the syringe barrel, you can "shoot" the dose back into the vial and draw it again without harming the insulin.

When you roll the insulin to re-suspend it, put the vial between the palms of your hands and roll it back and forth between them. What you want to see happen to the insulin is that the vial becomes evenly cloudy. The "white stuff" you see is the insulin itself and you want that to be thoroughly mixed together with the suspension (clear liquid).

Since you just opened this vial last night, if you see that Baby's still running high today, I would take the insulin back to W-M and ask for a new vial--they should replace it without charge. There are times you get "bad" vials; when that happens, they don't do the job of lowering bg's properly.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/petdiabetes/images/c/cc/Propinj.jpg

This is what it looks like when you're giving a shot right by pulling up the skin. When you place the needle into the skin higher up, you run the risk of literally "shooting through" it.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/petdiabetes/images/a/a2/Improp.jpg

Here you see what I mean. If the shot was given like this, the insulin would go into the air--not into the dog. See how much higher up the "tent" the needle is placed for the wrong way and how close to the base of the skin it is in the right one.

You also need to remember not to give the shot at the same place all the time because that can thicken the skin in that area; thicker skin doesn't absorb insulin very well and that can mean higher bg's. This is called rotating the injection site.

I always gave the morning shot on the right side and the evening one on the left. Doesn't matter if you do it mornings left and nights right, but it keeps you from injecting into the same place all the time.

After we had Caninsulin/Vetsulin, I followed their advice about giving the shots from the shoulders back to the tail but staying away from the spine. For me, having an area to "work" like this let me go up and down Lucky's body with the shots, making sure I didn't get them into the same spot along it.

If you're staying with the scruff or anyplace else, if you make sure that the next shot you give is the space of two fingers laid on Baby's skin apart from where you gave the last one, you won't be giving shots in the same area to make the skin thicker (less insulin absorption).

OK--there are more variables than we can count which influence someone's bg's--people or pets. Levels of hormones in the body rise and fall--it's part of the way it works. If you took blood every day and did full panels on it, you would see that the levels of things like cortisol vary a little. If you're healthy, they would be within the normal range for it, but they wouldn't be the same each day, just as different things happen in the course of daily living. All of that can influence one's bg's.

Everyone has his or her own personal body "definition" of what low is, and what will trigger the counter-regulatory hormones to signal for glucose to be released into the body. You can have a low and not go into rebound, but this rebound explanation is also a good one for what happens when you get to a low that triggers these hormones to act.

http://www.vetsulin.com/vet/Monitoring_Somogyi.aspx

An insulin dose that is too high may bring about the Somogyi effect or rebound hyperglycemia. This is produced because blood glucose concentrations fall too rapidly. The moment that the Somogyi effect is triggered is very individual – it is a life-saving response.

The body attempts to counteract the decline in the blood glucose concentration through a chain of reactions:

The blood glucose concentration falls rapidly, or approaches hypoglycemia (blood glucose concentrations of less than 50 mg/dL [5 mmol/L]) following the injection of insulin. The animal becomes hungry and either restless or lethargic.

In response to a declining blood glucose concentration in the CNS, adrenaline and subsequently cortisol, glucagon and growth hormone are released.
These hormones bring about an increase in the blood glucose concentration (through gluconeogenesis, release of glucose from hepatic glycogen and increased peripheral resistance to insulin).

The resultant hyperglycemia produces polyuria and polydipsia. This can easily be misinterpreted as caused by an inadequate insulin dose.

We had a little guy on another board who would have problems every time his bg's went down to 85. When this happened, he would have all the symptoms of a hypo but when you checked his bg's, they would not be in hypo/low range. His diabetes was very well controlled and easy to control; the decision for him was to slightly decrease his insulin so that while he remained in very good bg levels, it kept him away from getting close to 85.

On the other hand, we had Lucky, who stayed low and tight and would be at 85 about 8-10 hours after breakfast and morning insulin, who was feeling great at that level and never had a hypo.

Nobody with diabetes can make today a photocopy of yesterday or duplicate today for tomorrow. There's always going to be some variance, but when the things you aren't happy to see keep appearing as a pattern, that's when you need to think about making changes. People who start "chasing" numbers wind up in trouble because they're always trying to "fix" something that really isn't broken. ;)

Kathy

Thanks Kathy this picture really helps me her skin is so thick and then with the hair I just want to make sure I am doing it properly. It is not thick from the shots she is just overweight at least 10 pounds. Injecting her on the side of her chest is the easiest for me. When I tried to do the flank she flinches. I was reading about Somogyi effect yesterday so much more too learn never knew about the insulin not working right and having a bad vial I always thought if it is cloudy and white it is ok.

I just checked her now she was 286 at 7am, 336 -9:30am and dropped to 104 at 12:30. I will checked her in another 1hr too see if she keeps dropping . She should have started to get lower bg's after the 7am right - not go higher and than start dropping lower. So if I am understanding correctly it could be, somogyi, not injecting correctly, or a bad vial of insulin, I always make sure before I inject her the insulin is cloudy and white. On Friday evening she was 266 at 6pm then went up to 372 at 1am - I also wonder when you get near the end of the insulin vial it just didn't looked as white too me as when you first used it. I still had some left but, didn't used it and opened the new bottle. I'll post how she did the rest of the day still so much too learned.

On the Newman biscuit I give her only the small ones - not the big ones and she does like the new can food better. This am she ate mostly all her food but, did leave a little we just couldn't get her too eat it - I wasn't worried because she ate more than half of her dish of food. Thanks Kathy again it just takes time for me too sink everything in my brain.

peggy0
04-04-2009, 10:57 AM
if you injected her at 7, the peak for that shot is about 3/5 hours later, not immediately

We Hope
04-04-2009, 12:19 PM
This am she ate mostly all her food but, did leave a little we just couldn't get her too eat it - I wasn't worried because she ate more than half of her dish of food.

Ida,

This might be why Baby is running low; the dose of insulin you give her is based on two things--her body weight and the amount of food she eats. When you have more insulin than food, you can get lows; when you have more food than insulin, you get highs. You might want to ask your vet about how much insulin he wants Baby to have if she doesn't eat all of a meal. He can then tell you what his preferences are.

Everyone goes higher after eating. The difference between someone who doesn't have diabetes and someone who does is that the person who doesn't have it has a working pancreas that just sends out more insulin to handle the food. Those with diabetes who use insulin have to inject it, so they need to plan ahead for how much food and how much insulin.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/petdiabetes/images/2/29/White1.gif
Insulin secretion in non-diabetic human. The peaks represent the additional insulin released at meal times, called post-prandial, or after-meal insulin. Here you see how the non-diabetic body automatically calculates how much insulin is needed to handle the extra glucose generated by the meal and releases it. Within 2 hours after a meal has been eaten, insulin secretion in a non-diabetic reverts back to the lower, or basal level (amount of insulin necessary for the body's needs without considering the processing of food) shown as the low points in the graph.

So here you see how someone who doesn't have diabetes is able to automatically have the body send out the extra insulin to take care of any food that's eaten.

When you get near the end of an insulin vial, it can lose its potency. It can also lose it when the open vial has been around too long. Some people replace their insulin every month, while others keep using it until they notice it's not taking care of their bg's like it used to.

Some vials don't look right--you can tell there's something wrong with them--but others look fine and don't work properly. When you see anything about a vial of insulin that doesn't seem right to you, don't use it--get another. One of the first things we suggest when bg's are running high is to try a new vial of insulin and often that's what's wrong. ;)

Kathy

lab lover
04-04-2009, 01:58 PM
Ida,

This might be why Baby is running low; the dose of insulin you give her is based on two things--her body weight and the amount of food she eats. When you have more insulin than food, you can get lows; when you have more food than insulin, you get highs. You might want to ask your vet about how much insulin he wants Baby to have if she doesn't eat all of a meal. He can then tell you what his preferences are.

Everyone goes higher after eating. The difference between someone who doesn't have diabetes and someone who does is that the person who doesn't have it has a working pancreas that just sends out more insulin to handle the food. Those with diabetes who use insulin have to inject it, so they need to plan ahead for how much food and how much insulin.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/petdiabetes/images/2/29/White1.gif
Insulin secretion in non-diabetic human. The peaks represent the additional insulin released at meal times, called post-prandial, or after-meal insulin. Here you see how the non-diabetic body automatically calculates how much insulin is needed to handle the extra glucose generated by the meal and releases it. Within 2 hours after a meal has been eaten, insulin secretion in a non-diabetic reverts back to the lower, or basal level (amount of insulin necessary for the body's needs without considering the processing of food) shown as the low points in the graph.

So here you see how someone who doesn't have diabetes is able to automatically have the body send out the extra insulin to take care of any food that's eaten.

When you get near the end of an insulin vial, it can lose its potency. It can also lose it when the open vial has been around too long. Some people replace their insulin every month, while others keep using it until they notice it's not taking care of their bg's like it used to.

Some vials don't look right--you can tell there's something wrong with them--but others look fine and don't work properly. When you see anything about a vial of insulin that doesn't seem right to you, don't use it--get another. One of the first things we suggest when bg's are running high is to try a new vial of insulin and often that's what's wrong. ;)

Kathy

I just called Walmart and right now they don't have any in will be getting some in by the afternoon or they will tell me when they will have it. If the one near my house doesn't have it this afternoon I will have them checked another further away. I don't know if they will replaced it I told the Pharmacist the bottle is very white and he said there shouldn't be anything wrong with it - so I might have too pay for another one. (I'll bring it in with me)

Her readings for today

286 7am
336 10:30am
104 12:30
78 1:30 I gave her a couple of Newman small biscuits and it brought her
152 3:30 up.

The vet is closed by 1pm today so I couldn't called him but, this is the third time she went this low in a wk.

I also, forgot too asked does it matter when you walked them s/b before feeding and shot or after,does that effect the levels in anyway she always wants to walk in the am when she is on a empty stomach so I wonder if this makes a difference too. I would like to get her in a routine of 3 short walks a day as soon as the weather is nice here - today is nice by Tues we will have snow again - so you never know from day to day how the weather is going to be in Tn

Right now we are feeding her Solid Gold dry , 3/4 cup, 1/2 can Wellness chicken, and Turkey dog food, change off one day chicken, one day turkey, 1/2 cup of string beans, 1/2 teasp Metamucil 2 x a day for more fiber, (per vet) 1/2 cup of chopped of chicken. The dog food is is almost like Solid Gold but, they were out when I went to buy it so I bought the closest ingredients I could too it and she likes it better. living in a small town they do not stocked items liked they do in Miami, but I didn't want too waste the food if in a week the vet decides to changed it - so I buy six at a time -the cans are running 1.68 a can. I wished she could be off of the antibotic but she has to take them for another 2 wks - I asked the vet if that would effect her readings and they feel liked it shouldn't make any difference in the readings? I don't understand that because everything I read on the internet about any medications could throw off their levels. Hope I did the right thing about giving her the biscuits instead of Karo. At least I didn't panic like a nut. Right

lab lover
04-04-2009, 02:02 PM
Making a note to asked the vet about dosage too if she does not eat all of her food. Thank you.

We Hope
04-04-2009, 02:19 PM
Ida,

I see that Baby went to 78--there's nothing wrong with your insulin; when the insulin's not right, you have highs even though you're doing everything else right. I believe she went to 78 because she didn't eat all of her breakfast this morning but got enough insulin as if she did.

Today we know why Baby went low--more insulin than food and you did the perfect thing by giving her the biscuits! ;)

Some medicines can affect diabetes--but when they tell you this, a lot of times it doesn't mean that it will affect everyone with diabetes who has to take the medicine.

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Medication_warnings

The time NOT to walk a diabetic dog is around the time their insulin is working hardest, or peaking. Since exercise normally lowers blood glucose, combining that with the time the insulin's at its strongest could mean going too low or in a hypo.

So this time, we sure DO know where Baby got that 78--from not eating all of her breakfast! :)

Kathy

BaileyBear
04-04-2009, 03:43 PM
Should I checked Baby after one of the small biscuits maybe a hr later to see if it brings her bg's up - I never thought about it because it is such a small biscuits is that how yu found out that they are ok for Bailey? Also, when we do take her for a ride she does drop lower & when we get home I check her and sometimes she will drop a 100 points depending how long the ride is so I guess I will keep the milk bones in house for that too. Thanks,Ida

We have the small and the larger size heart biscuits now. He gets the smaller ones after each injection and then the larger one as a bedtime treat. We had previously been giving him a small Milk Bone (my parents had bought him a big box for Christmas, lol) at bedtime. This was when he was still having huge post-meal spikes at bedtime. I knew part of that was his meal still lingering, but I wanted to know how much of it may be the biscuit. So I tested him before his biscuit and then a 1/2 hour and an hour later for a few days in a row. Each time he went up about 100 points, so we had our answer.

When we tried the Newman's, I did the same thing and his numbers didn't budge - sometimes they even went down a little. That's why I don't use them to increase his BG when he is lower than I'd like. That's when I give him the Milk Bones, since I know he will go up after one of those. :)

Bailey has the same experience as Baby after car rides. He drops a lot, depending on what number he starts with. When he was still in higher numbers, he would drop at least 100 points. But the lower he starts at, the less of a drop he has. He went to the vet this week and ended up there for over 90 minutes because they were really busy. He got to play with a lot of other dogs and he gets very excited when he sees his vet...loves the guy. Had he started higher, he could have easily dropped 100+ pts. But he was in the 90's when he went and only dropped about 10 points when I checked him at home.

If you test Baby before & after the Newman's (and before & after whatever other treats you may want to give her, like Milk Bones) it should give you an idea of how much, if at all, it raises her BG. The smaller size are pretty darn small, so it might not give her much of a bump. But every dog is different and Bailey seems especially sensitive to corn and wheat. The Newman's don't contain corn or wheat, so that's why I think he does so well with them. The Milk Bones have both, so consequently he sees a big bump in BG.

I know a lot of this still feels very overwhelming for you, but you are still in the process of getting Baby consistent and finding out what makes her go up and what makes her go down. That's a lot of work in the beginning - lots of testing, note taking, and looking for consistent patterns. But once you gather all of that information, it makes the rest easier. You'll eventually learn what works best for Baby in different situations. Once her meals are consistently the same and you have the insulin dose worked, then you'll be able to fine tune the food, treats, and activity as well. :)

lab lover
04-04-2009, 03:43 PM
Ida,

I see that Baby went to 78--there's nothing wrong with your insulin; when the insulin's not right, you have highs even though you're doing everything else right. I believe she went to 78 because she didn't eat all of her breakfast this morning but got enough insulin as if she did.

Today we know why Baby went low--more insulin than food and you did the perfect thing by giving her the biscuits! ;)

Some medicines can affect diabetes--but when they tell you this, a lot of times it doesn't mean that it will affect everyone with diabetes who has to take the medicine.

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Medication_warnings

The time NOT to walk a diabetic dog is around the time their insulin is working hardest, or peaking. Since exercise normally lowers blood glucose, combining that with the time the insulin's at its strongest could mean going too low or in a hypo.

So this time, we sure DO know where Baby got that 78--from not eating all of her breakfast! :)

Kathy

Thanks Kathy, at least now I don't have too drive 35 miles one way to another Walmart to get another vial -I will get a back up one on Mon or Tues when the Walmart near me gets them in - Hope my spoiled doggy eats all her food in pm if anyone saw us sitting on the floor begging this dog they would say we have completely lost it!! Thanks for all the info. Ida

lab lover
04-05-2009, 11:09 AM
Kathy,

Baby, and I had a good night -this morning she woke up with 320,at 7am and at noon she was 138. She finally did her business this morning so maybe she will feel better now. She dropped quite a bit in the 4-5 hr range of the insulin but, not as much as Sat, so she should be ok for today - what is a good range (low) for the day and evening. I wished she could get off the antibotics what happens if she gets a bad infection and from being on them so long -don't they build up a resistence to them. Now I know if I see a 168 at 11 0r 12 not too be concerned. I'm just so used to her going high then lowI don't know what a good reading looks liked.

Is it ok that she doesn't drink a lot I wonder with the Metamucil I know for us they want us too drink more. Monday, I will be going by the vet's too give him the readings for the past few days. Have a good day!Ida

We Hope
04-05-2009, 01:59 PM
Ida,

Basing it on Baby's no longer having the highs she used to, I would ask your vet tomorrow what lowest bg level he would be comfortable seeing Baby at.

This can depend on the dog we're talking about. When I was on another board, we had a little one who had good control and was easy to manage. But every time he got down to 85, he had all the symptoms of having a low. You'd check his bg's and find the meter didn't think so. They slightly decreased his insulin and that kept him in a very good bg range but so he didn't get close to 85.

Lucky would be at 85 between 8-10 hours after food and insulin and feeling fine. We knew this was normal for him.

So with just those two examples, you can see that being at 85 was a "big deal" for one dog but "no sweat" for another.

You need to tell your vet that Baby's not drinking very much re: the Metamucil tomorrow and let him tell you if what she is drinking is OK with that.

It doesn't always happen that you get resistance to an antibiotic--I don't believe Baby's taken enough of it for that to happen. She's not been overusing it.

I think Baby's made a LOT of progress since you're now able to have only the one vet treating her! :)

Kathy

lab lover
04-07-2009, 05:25 PM
Just wanted to checked in and see how everyone is doing better - her Mom isn't after hurting my back but, doing better today.

Sunday - 4-5
320 6:45am
138 11:45
192 4pm
222 5:30pm
272 7pm shot and food
335 11pm

Mon 4-6
281 7am
117 11:30am
142 2pm
251 6:30
153 11pm

Tues 4-7

311 7am
222 2pm
208 6:30pm
food and shot 7Pm

I faxed the readings too the vet and he was very pleased with them I also, asked about the water intake he said she should drink at least 2 litters which she doesn't maybe some in the am a little in afternoon and some pm. I will watched her for dehydration but, she is acting fine.

She is still getting 17 units and the same amount of food. Her readings vary
from day to day but, I think they are much better than last wk and she seems to have a little more energy - tonight at dinner she acted liked she wanted more food and I couldn't believe it because we usually have to start out and hand feed her so things are looking up thank God - thanks too all of you and my new vet. I also, asked him about the low readings and he said a 84 is fine nothing below that - this is only time I get nervous I hate low readings like that but, I think in time I will adjust too it.

I'll checked in tomorrow I still can't sit too long. Have a good night. Baby and Ida

BaileyBear
04-07-2009, 05:32 PM
So glad to hear things are looking up. Baby's appetite returning is a very good sign! :D

Take care of yourself and get some rest! :)

peggy0
04-07-2009, 06:00 PM
Ida, these are GREAT!!! I'm so happy for you and Baby. You should be proud of yourself. Baby should start being her good old self again now and you should have peace of mind. CongratS!!!

We Hope
04-07-2009, 07:08 PM
Ida,

The only way I could be happier is to see you post that your back is doing better still! :)

Baby has made a LOT of progress in a very short time! I'm so glad the vet now is willing to work one on one with you, as I think this has been a big help in getting Baby to come so far.

Kathy

Margaret Boyle
04-08-2009, 08:06 AM
Well done Ida you have done great :D:D


LOL

eyelostit
04-08-2009, 06:55 PM
Your numbers look good, hope the back is ok, yes you have come a long way. ;)

lab lover
04-09-2009, 10:13 AM
I wanted to post Baby's last two days of readings because I won't be on for a while I hope Baby does good while I recuperate I have too wear a patch for five days - just have too double checked the syringe when I give inuslin. I just found out yesterday that my retina had detached I have been going to the eye doctor for the past yr but, I was so busy taking care of Baby and injured my back I didn't know what was happening except I could not see good on the computer and a shade started too cover the eye - so surgery tomorr also have grandular wrinkling too in the eye.

I did see a link where you can buy a magnify tube too insert the syringe to see the lines better but, I couldn't find the website again. If anyone knows anything about this please let me know.

So far Baby, is doing OK Tues -7am 311
2pm 222
6pm 208
10:30 200

Wed 7am 273
12:30 109
4pm 144 went for a ride to the dr's office so her levels go up
with excitement or stress
8pm 325

Thurs 7am 361 Still on 17 units NPH

Will checked her before I go too the doctor's. One of the vets I have never met I spoked with yesterday to asked her that I will be having surgery and have too be there real early in the am can I give Baby her food and shot 2 hrs early (she said that would be ok) what happens if I have to do this will it throw all the levels off and how do you get a dog to eat at 5am? I hope they scheduled it later or this will be a problem for us I will know this afternoon. this will be the first time we leave her by herself -just wondering if her numbers are good enough too be left alone for five or six hr.

You know me worry worry all the time - she also said "are you checking four and five times a day" I said yes - why? She felt it was too much for BAby and I said "well I want peace of mind" and if I am neurotic so what- she said well at least your admitting too it. Thank God, we are not seeing her - now I know to only deal with the owner or the other vet. Am I wrong for checking her so much since she is not really regulated yet. We need to get her weighed because her weight could have fluxuated up or down.

I also noticed she is always 300 or more in am does that mean she needs a change with food amount or insulin amt. Have too asked the owner he is not in today. Well, hopefully in a few days I will be back on the line. I will be in touch -Ida

lab lover
04-09-2009, 10:17 AM
Good to hear your Mom is home and doing better - and Nikki is ok too. Take care, Ida

k9diabetes
04-09-2009, 12:55 PM
Hi Ida,

I don't have time to review your post - will do that later. Just wanted to wish you a safe trip, a quick and painless procedure, and a speedy recovery.

Natalie

We Hope
04-09-2009, 01:57 PM
Ida,

Want to add my best wishes and hope we will be seeing you back posting soon!

I can help with the syringe magnifier:

http://www.americandiabeteswholesale.com/-strse-223/Ezy-dsh-Dose-Syringe-Magnifier-dsh-insulin-syringes/Detail.bok

"Clip the Ezy-Dose Syringe Magnifier to your insulin syringe for easier reading of calibrations to avoid dosage error. Fits on 1 cc and 1/2 cc syringes."

There's another one on the market called Magna Guide but the trouble with that one is it only fits BD brand syringes and would mean you'd need to buy more expensive syringes than the W-M ones to use it.

Come and fill us in on everything when you're able! :)

Kathy

BaileyBear
04-10-2009, 08:22 PM
Ida, I hope your surgery is uneventful and wish you a speedy recovery. My mom's retina detached several years ago, but the surgery went very well and she hasn't had any major problems in that eye since. Take it easy, don't worry too much about Baby, and let us know how you are when you're back online and able to post. (((Hugs)))

eyelostit
04-10-2009, 10:13 PM
Ida, I hope you and your family are OK, I know you are in the tornado area, I hope its over by now.

Dolly

eyelostit
04-12-2009, 04:28 PM
Ida, when you get feeling a bit better here is the link to the syringe magnifier :) I don't know what it costs, I'd check ebay first or Amazon to check prices.

http://www.bddiabetes.com/US/main.aspx?cat=2&id=420 (http://www.bddiabetes.com/US/main.aspx?cat=2&id=420)

We Hope
04-12-2009, 04:53 PM
Word of caution on the BD Magni Guide:

http://www.bddiabetes.com/US/main.aspx?cat=2&id=420

"NOTE: Insulin vials of different manufacturers are different sizes:

The BD Magni-Guide™ device works as described above with vials from Eli Lilly.

"Novo Nordisk vials fit the BD Magni-Guide™ device tightly and may cause the device to crack.

"Sanofi-Aventis vials fit the device loosely and therefore the user needs to stabilize the vial with their hands."

So you run the risk of cracking it because you use Novo insulin. Since Novo is the maker of ReliOn/Novolin, the same would hold true for it.

Kathy

eyelostit
04-21-2009, 10:33 PM
Ida is hanging in there, her eye is not too well, Baby is doing much better this week.:)

We Hope
04-22-2009, 08:14 AM
Tell Ida we need to say the same for her! :)

k9diabetes
04-23-2009, 09:46 AM
Thanks so much for the update Dolly!

Sending you warm wishes and hope you're back to normal soon Ida,

Natalie

lab lover
05-09-2009, 12:35 PM
I haven't posted in a month so I couldn't find my name to post under so maybe Kathy or Natalie you could moved it for me. I have been wanting to let everyone know how Baby been doing but, with this detached retina surgery I had on 4/10 I cannot get on the computer it just blinds me I loss all my vision in my eye the surgery was very extensive so I have to listen to the doctor. Hopefully in 5-6 months I will get 50-60% back I don't know for sure but, it has been hard trying to do everyday things you take for granted. Anyway, enough about me Baby has been doing wonderful I can't post her readings because I cannot stay on long it bothers my eye. She has been ranging from 260 in the am and ending at the end of the day in the low 200's no more than 300. We still have her on the same food and is eating very well wants more now.

She is still 95lb and taking NPH 2x 17 units someday she will be around 140-160 5-6 hrs after her shot. I draw the syringe and my husband double checks it too make sure she is getting the correct amount. She is on half can of Wellness dog food chicken and turkey, twice a day, 1/2 can of green beans, 1/2 ts metamucil, 1/2 can turkey or 3/4 cup of Millineum dry food so far so good because if I needed you all and had to get on my computer I would be in trouble. When I looked thru that eye it is liked it is magnify I see absolutely nothing and it is been a month. I was worried Baby would lose her vision - so involved with her I ignored the warnings for myself.

Please know I think of yu all often will try to get on once a wk gettin doubled vision have too get off. BAby is off antibotics too and her readings did dropped when she got off. thank god. Just wanted to say hi to everyone and all the newcomers. Dolly packaged is in mail. Lov, Baby and Mom:)

Margaret Boyle
05-09-2009, 03:22 PM
I haven't posted in a month so I couldn't find my name to post under so maybe Kathy or Natalie you could moved it for me. I have been wanting to let everyone know how Baby been doing but, with this detached retina surgery I had on 4/10 I cannot get on the computer it just blinds me I loss all my vision in my eye the surgery was very extensive so I have to listen to the doctor. Hopefully in 5-6 months I will get 50-60% back I don't know for sure but, it has been hard trying to do everyday things you take for granted. Anyway, enough about me Baby has been doing wonderful I can't post her readings because I cannot stay on long it bothers my eye. She has been ranging from 260 in the am and ending at the end of the day in the low 200's no more than 300. We still have her on the same food and is eating very well wants more now.

She is still 95lb and taking NPH 2x 17 units someday she will be around 140-160 5-6 hrs after her shot. I draw the syringe and my husband double checks it too make sure she is getting the correct amount. She is on half can of Wellness dog food chicken and turkey, twice a day, 1/2 can of green beans, 1/2 ts metamucil, 1/2 can turkey or 3/4 cup of Millineum dry food so far so good because if I needed you all and had to get on my computer I would be in trouble. When I looked thru that eye it is liked it is magnify I see absolutely nothing and it is been a month. I was worried Baby would lose her vision - so involved with her I ignored the warnings for myself.

Please know I think of yu all often will try to get on once a wk gettin doubled vision have too get off. BAby is off antibotics too and her readings did dropped when she got off. thank god. Just wanted to say hi to everyone and all the newcomers. Dolly packaged is in mail. Lov, Baby and Mom:)

Hi Ida, It is so nice to hear from you and I am glad things have went well for you I do hope your eye gets a good percentage of vision back. I have been thinking about you . Also glad to hear Baby is doing well you have had a lot to cope with glad your Hubby is there to help you with Baby's dosage.
You have both done really well lots of hugs to you all. :D

LOL

eyelostit
05-10-2009, 12:18 AM
Hi Ida,

Surprised to see you here !! Glad you could post, aw...the eye, gotta be driving you nuts. Glad all is well with Baby.:)

We Hope
05-10-2009, 08:23 AM
Glad to see you here, Ida! :)

Nice to hear Baby's doing so well--we want to hear the same about YOU, now! Know it's tought because you want to do everything, but you're right, you need to listen to your doctor.

If you need us and you can't get on the internet, your husband or son can post for you, OK?

You take care of yourself and we'll be waiting to hear when you're able to post. ;)

Kathy

lab lover
05-21-2009, 04:44 PM
Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to say thank you for all the well wishes still hanging in there I can only see a blurry image when I looked out of my bad eye so at least the vision is coming back but, slowly the doctor said at least 5months before I can see good I had too much damaged to the retina.

Baby, is doing much better still the same weight 95 lbs, I wished I could post her readings but, I can't stay on too long - I do noticed some mornings she is in the 300's and other times she is 230-250. The other day my husband and I did some errands she was in the car for about an hour and half - when we left she was 170 by the time we got home I checked her and she went down too 60. I gave her a ritz cracker and in hr she was back up too 92. Her level dropped so fast from excitement - I just wondered what everyone else does is it a good idea too give her some a biscuit before we go? Have too figured this out before we try a drive to NC when my eye is better.

Baby is still on 17 units twice a day she is so hungry now when it is time too eat - she is still getting the same amt 3/4 cup of dry food, 1/2 cup chicken, 1/2 cup string beans, 1 cup dog food Wellness, and 1/2 tsp metamucil I have been wondering maybe with being so hungry - does she need more food or less insulin? I asked my vet and he said let's wait another wk - I need to faxed readings too him tomorr. Is this a good sign that she is getting regulated with wanting to eat more?

I also wanted too asked regarding Heartworm and Frontline what is the best time to give her the pill and apply the frontline this will be the first month siince she became a diabetic and I read it does effect their readings - tomorr I need too give her the Heartguard pill is it better before food and shot or after injection?

My eyes are starting too see double already I sure do missed posting I wanted to checked the other posts out there were a few questions asked I needed to read but, will try tomorr.

Thanks again for thinking about Baby - the lady down the street didn't realized she was the same dog she looks good with the weight loss. Ida/Baby

eyelostit
05-21-2009, 07:34 PM
Hi Ida,

Glad to see you hear for a lil bit, I always give the Heartguard Chews or the pill versions with the food.

I never had a problem with Frontline and bg.

If baby goes low with the excitement that Ritz Cracker works, you could just keep using a Ritz and if you feel she is going to low take a bit of her food with you in a baggie or little container and give her a few pieces of the kibble, the Ritz will raise the bg and bring it up and the kibble will follow tho it takes more time, its up to you and if you are happy with the readings you are getting.

I always carry some kibble in the car for just in case.

Dolly:)

lab lover
05-23-2009, 04:06 PM
Hi Dollie

The ritz cracker worked so I will keep them in the car with some food. I gave her the heartguard yesterday and at the end of the day she ended up with a 394 reading - I don't know if the pill brought it up or she has been in the 300's in the am and around 260 in the pm lately. I need to faxed the readings to the vet maybe she needs a changed in food or insulin I forgot it was a holiday wkend this week - will do it on Monday. Have a good wkend. Ida

We Hope
05-23-2009, 04:59 PM
Ida,

The heartworm meds (along with flea and tick preventives) can raise bg's temporarily for some dogs. We had the problem with Lucky, but his was an extreme; when we did a hospital test less than 24 hours after he had his monthly pill, his bg's were as high as before he was regulated.

So we decided to test him every other day and "follow" the pill. It took him about 5 days to get back to normal. Baby, however, is not registering over 500--Lucky was.

I think you'll see Baby's bg's get back to normal after there are a few more days gone by from the Heartguard.

Do something fun this weekend, OK? :)

Kathy

k9diabetes
05-25-2009, 09:41 AM
Hi Ida,

It's very nice to see you here, even if you can't stay too long. Glad to hear you are healing up! :)

You can give a snack before you go for a drive or other things that get Baby excited now that you know her blood sugar tends to drop sharply. Chris was definitely like this. Both vet visits and exercise dropped his BG pretty strongly. We often gave a snack before both.

The crackers should digest very quickly into glucose. In fact, in species that actually chew their food ;) , crackers start to convert to sugar in the mouth while they're being chewed.

Take care of yourself Ida and I hope your sight is better soon. I'm sure it must be very frustrating.

Natalie

lab lover
05-27-2009, 03:19 PM
I wanted to post Baby's readings to see how you all feel on her bg's levels- she varies so much now I really want her too be around 150 during the day so I won't have too worried she will dropped if she goes for a walk or ride.

5-3 6am 414
10:30 316
2pm 182
6pm 265

lab lover
05-27-2009, 03:43 PM
I wanted to post Baby's readings to see how you all feel on her bg's levels- she varies so much now I really want her too be around 150 during the day so I won't have too worried she will dropped if she goes for a walk or ride. Sorry there is a lot of readings but haven't been able to stay on long enough to post them. Pls let me know what yu think if she is doing better than in March - I really haven't post her readings since my surgery April 10.

5-3 6am 414
10:30 316
2pm 182
6pm 265
5-4 6:30 334
Noon 155
6pm 217

5-5 6am 325
Noon 145
6pm 245
10:30pm 101

5-6
6am 264
11am 282
4pm 200
6pm 231

5-7
6am 349
2pm 98
4pm 236
6pm 283

5-8
6am 275
noon 185
6pm 252

5-9
6am 275
11am 217
3pm 164
6pm 292

5-10 6am 320
2pm 278
6pm 384
9pm 225

5-11 Curve

6am 255
10am 353
noon 256
2pm 191
4pm 203
6pm 151
7pm 109
8pm 187

5-12
6am 290
noon 156
6pm 213

5-13

6:30 235
1:30 93 after a hr car ride
6pm 316

5-16 Curve

6am 241
1pm 78
4pm 237
5pm 189
6pm 232
9pm 114
12pm 178

I won't post the whole wk of 5/17
5-19
6am 329
11am 171
1pm 60 after ride gave biscuit
2pm 92
5pm 155
6:30 233

5/20 New bottle insulin

6am 377
1pm 105
5pm 197
6:30pm 209
8pm 271

5/22 Heartguard pill

6am 285
1pm 156
6pm 387 gave her the pill around 4pm
9:30pm 147

5/24

6am 301
3pm 263
6pm 353
9pm 274

5/26

6am 359
1pm 142
2pm 147
5pm 283

5/27 Frontline

6am 351
noon 195
4:30 254

She is still eating the Wellness canned dog food chicken or turket with sweet potatoe, barley, carrots. Mellinenum dry food 3/4 cup -1/2 cann dog. She has been eating a lot of grass after every feeding and I wondered if the sweet potaote and carrots in the canned food is upsetting her stomach - she didn't do this a month ago. She gobbles the food and wants more also, green beans, 1/2c chicken chopped and 1/2ts metamucil. Could the metamucil be giving the upset stomach. So much more too aske everyone but, I better get off for now. Any info will be appreciated. Baby's Mom Ida

We Hope
05-28-2009, 07:18 AM
Ida,

I think Baby's doing a LOT better! She still has quite a high pre-breakfast bg; you and you vet might want to talk about a little more insulin in the evening (maybe a 1/2 unit) to see if that might bring her morning pre-shot down.

What have you changed or added in the month re: food--anything? If so, then that's where to look if you think there's a stomach upset going on.

Kathy

lab lover
05-28-2009, 08:00 AM
Thanks for checking the readings I will called the vet today - we haven't changed anything food wise I wished we could the Wellness dog food is $2.20 a can and I used a can a day the dry food Mellinium beef and barley is expensive too, so with me checking her so much with the Alpha strips it is costing a lot for us. I just hate to get into changing the food when she is doing so much better than two months ago- would the sweet potatoe or carrots (they are the fourth ingredient) in the can upset her stomach now, after being on it for two months? Every time she eats after the meal she will eat some grass - I'll checked out the site too see what everyone else is feeding their dogs.

Have you ever used Tagamet or Pepto Bismal pills for an upset stomach I used to give them to her before she became a diabetic. Any websites I can get the strips cheaper than $50.00 a vial -only saw them on Ebay around the same price. So good to be able to checked in a little each day. Thanks, Ida

We Hope
05-28-2009, 08:24 AM
Ida,

The only illness Lucky had after diabetes dx was a minor bout with colitis. One of the things John prescribed for him was Pepto-Bismol. I had a time with the pills (wouldn't take them) and a time with the liquid (had to take a syringe barrel without needle and shoot it into his mouth).

This was the only time in his life he ever bit me--trying to get away from the Pepto-Bismol. We had pink all over him and all over the whole house; I think about half of what John prescribed actually went down, but it took care of things. :D

I'd ask the vet what he'd prefer using for upset stomach.

Kathy

peggy0
05-28-2009, 07:41 PM
I had to take Forbin off Welness Can. He didn't do well with it either. Got the runs. I switched him to Buffalo Blue and now to Newmans Organic. he loves it

lab lover
06-05-2009, 10:54 AM
Hi Everyone,

I need some help here I don't know what to do Baby has been running high in the am with no changed of food so I called the vet and he said to give her 18 units in am and pm - boy was I sorry I did that -poor BAby didn't feel good for two days. She started off on Wed with a 238 in am by 2:30 she was 75 and not looking good at all. He told me to feed her half of her meal and then the whole meal at dinner and give her 17 units in pm. Before we fed her she was 229.

The vet said to try again the next morning with 18 units after meal (her bg was 310) before we fed her the am feeding by noon she was a 93 and not looking good at all again. I know the normal is 75-150 but, she does not do good with such low numbers 150 she can handle without any excitement. He wants her around a 100 but, at that number all she does is lay around and pant and with no walks or rides in the car. I need for her to be close to 200 to take her out for a walk or ride because she drops very fast with excitement.

We have decided to see how she does for a wk back on 17 units 2 x and decided if we will give 1/2 unit more in am and pm or 17 in am and 18 in pm.

I don't want too have to worry constantly with her being hundred and not be able to let her run or go for walks. Will this make the diabetes worst if she stays around the 200 range during the day this is what I am comfortable with or even 150-200. Now I know with all this changed it will take a while for her to get back to normal again. He said the food I am giving her is ok and is not making it raise the bg's. I noticed if she doesn't walk at least once a day she will be higher but, the heat here during the day is too hot for her to be walking.

Any ideas on what to do? I also try changing the dog food amt to half can and gave her brown rice but, that didn't help.

She is fed 1/2 can Wellness dog food am and pm
1/2 can stringbeans
1/2 can chopped up chicken -white
1/2 tsp Metamucil
3/4 cup of Millinenm Gold dry food beef and barley

She is eating her food so good now gobbles it all down and wants more.

I looked back on her April readings and she was always 250 or 270 in the am and we haven't changed anything to make her start going higher up.

One day after hour and half ride she was 170 at 1pm and when we got back two hrs later she was a 60 so having her so low in the afternoon I am too nervous with a 100 or 120. With her having such highs in the morning will this effect her kidneys and eyes I for got too asked the vet. Pls let me know if you have any ideas that can helped us. I want her to be regulated so bad it has been since Jan and I know we have improved but, I hate testing her so much my poor baby is giving me a dirty look "like OK another One" enough is enough. Newman's biscuits she gets a couple of day I don't think they raise her that much it is the little ones. 3 a day. Thanks, Ida

We Hope
06-05-2009, 12:09 PM
Ida,

It sounds like what you need to do is a little before-hand planning. Before you go for a walk or ride, give Baby a couple of biscuits; they should raise her so she doesn't hit a low while you're out.

If you're sure that Baby's going to go low by noon, at around 10:30-11 AM, try a couple of the Newmans' biscuits to see if that makes a difference with her.

You'd like to get that morning fasting down below 180 (renal threshold), and Baby might do fine with the bit more insulin you and your vet talked about if you give her something before she gets to a point where she's not doing well.

If you add some biscuits here and there as you need them, you might not need to change anything about Baby's food.

HTH!

Kathy

lab lover
06-05-2009, 07:35 PM
Kathy,

I do give her the extra biscuits when we go for a ride but, will keep the newman's with us too. Right now I just checked her and I am a little nervous she was 261 at feeding time tonight at 6 pm I gave her the 17 units and she is down to 79 right now - that has never happened. The insulin takes about two hrs to start working and if she that low right now she will go even lower tonight. I hope your on or someone else should I give her a couple of biscuits right now. Let me know - little confused she should of gone higher and than dropped. Pls ans if someone is on line. thanks, Ida

ravenecw
06-05-2009, 08:15 PM
See i would probably but I always worry about my dog going too low - my personal feeling is i'd rather have her high for a short time (preferrably a short time) than low at all. I'm probably not the best one to answer this but in my opinion if it was my dog I would..... is that the right answer... ??? But I just don't want to deal with a "low" episode if I don't have to.

We Hope
06-05-2009, 09:01 PM
Ida,

When you see Baby's too low, give her the biscuits.

When you can, you might want to do a curve to see when Baby starts dropping. Going back on your thread, I see that you posted that she peaks between 4-6 hours.

It might turn out that you need to give Baby a couple of biscuits in the morning and evening at about 3 hours after she's had her food and insulin to keep her from getting to that low.

Hope this was "in time"!

Kathy

lab lover
06-06-2009, 10:31 AM
I get so upset and nervous especially at night when I see that low and because it was so early for her too dropped only 2 and half hrs after the shot. I did give her two biscuits -light nutra ones I had before she became a diabetic and within a hr she was up to 124. I just can't believe how she drops so fast from anything, walks, drives, excitement, heat - is it going to be this way all the time. I am nervous for her to be a normal dog. I wished I could just get her in the 150 range during the day so I wouldn't have to worried so much. Sorry to be a nut again last night. I think also the canned chicken is very loose and not thick liked the turkey so she is digesting the canned faster - I have been keeping track when I alternate from turkey to chicken and she drops more with the chicken so I am going to stop giving her that - any ideas on any other canned dog food besides /w./d she will not eat that at all. Thanks, again Ida


I'll post a curve tomorrow.

ravenecw
06-06-2009, 10:49 AM
I have no idea on the food as my problem is similar (at times) with what you have. My dog raises so fast after she eats so when I start off high (especially in the morning) I know I am going to be walking her to get her to come down, and excercise etc. usually drops her pretty fast too. Hopefully one of us will figure out the best way to handle these situations, even if we have to do it differently for our dogs. Best of luck, we'll get it- I know we will be ok.

We Hope
06-06-2009, 01:28 PM
Ida,

You might be 100% right that Baby digests the chicken faster than the turkey. When this happens, that means there's less food there to "hold up" Baby's bgs.

You were using the Wellness Chicken & Sweet Potato and Turkey & Sweet Potato, right?

Wellness also has:

http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/dog_wellness_can_duck_sweet_potato.html

Duck and Sweet Potato

http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/dog_wellness_can_fish_sweet_potato.html

Whitefish and Sweet Potato

http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/dog_wellness_can_lamb_sweet_potato.html

Lamb and Sweet Potato

http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/dog_wellness_can_sweet_potato.html

Venison and Sweet Potato

You could give any of these a try for replacing the chicken to see if these flavors are thicker than the chicken has been.

I didn't see any "nut" posting here last night--just a concerned lady with a question who posted to this thread! ;)

Kathy

lab lover
06-07-2009, 06:10 PM
Baby's readings are a lot better I am only giving her the turkey (because reading back on her levels she was much better with the turkey than chicken. When I mixed up her food for the evening I would make up her am feeding and keep it in the fridge (tupperware) till morning so I wouldn't have to do all that measuring in the am. Well, from one of the forum members they asked if I was mixing up the dry with the canned for the morn meal and I was - we think the dry was absorbing all of the canned juice and she was not getting the right amount of dry food. I stopped doing this for two days and she has been 250 in am noon, 103, 2;30 144 and evening 6pm 239 the best she has been so far as I can see from my charting. I also lowered her canned food to 1/2 cup and increased her dry to 1 cup. Yesterday she was close to those readings too. This was also with no exercise so I know if she goes for a walk, ride, etc to bring biscuits because she does dropped so fast between 1 and 2:00. If I would have walked her between the noon and 2:30 she would have been a lot lower.

Now, I can see different changes in her and tell what will make her low and high so this is so helpful too me and I won't panic with the low's the night she was down to 79 at 9pm I gave her two small biscuits and she was fine for the evening. All I know is I feel much better with her last two day readings and hope this means we are getting closer to getting her where she is not high one day and so low the next. I get to the point where I am afraid to let her run, play or walk because I don't want too see those low's. I notice too with the heat she will dropped too. Hopefully I won't have too changed foods she really likes the canned wellness so time will tell. Thanks, for helping me. I did try the lamb, venison, too and she didn't care for them - she's just a spoiled brat but, I still love her. Baby's Mom Ida

We Hope
06-08-2009, 06:36 AM
Ida,

You're really getting "the hang" of all this! You try not to eat what you don't like, don't you? Dogs don't have to worry about being polite and eating it anyway. :)

When Baby does something on the spur of the moment, you just need to check on her after she's done playing, etc. and give her some of the Newman's biscuits if you see she's gone a little low from that. Things like rides and walks you can plan ahead for and Baby can get the biscuits before you go out.

Heat makes insulin absorb quicker so this is why it can cause a low--the body will use it faster if it's warmer.

See in the "fine print" at the bottom of your post that you're wondering about testing Baby's urine. When you see her running high, it would be a good idea because your meter doesn't test blood for ketones. If you have some ketodiastix at home yet, you can use them and just pay attention to the ketone reading. But since you now test Baby's blood for glucose, when you need more urine strips, you can get ketostix--these are the ones that don't test urine for glucose--they test urine for ketones only.

HTH!

Kathy

ladysmom06
06-08-2009, 07:33 AM
Hi Ida,

Baby's readings are a lot better I am only giving her the turkey (because reading back on her levels she was much better with the turkey than chicken

For some reason Lady did better with the turkey too - we also used low fat ground beef and she did well with that.

Gald to hear that the numbers the last few days were better. Your doing a great job with Baby. Hugs to the two of you.

Margaret Boyle
06-08-2009, 09:08 AM
Hi Ida,



For some reason Lady did better with the turkey too - we also used low fat ground beef and she did well with that.

Gald to hear that the numbers the last few days were better. Your doing a great job with Baby. Hugs to the two of you.

Hi Ida,
You are doing great with Baby and I am glad you are also feeling better you are doing well with her numbers. :cool:

LOL

lab lover
06-09-2009, 04:49 PM
Hi Kathy

You just answer what I was going to post today we gave Baby a bath in the back yard and it was around 85 degrees warm for Tn after bathing we dried her and brushed her and she was loving the sun. I know not too let her stay so long in the sun but, the most between bath, drying, brushing her a hr. ( She was also in the house in between drying and brushing her ) Well, when I went to checked her before her feeding she was 110, that's with no activity except a bath - I guess she is going to be one of those dogs that is sentitive too everything from heat to excitement. I didn't checked a lot today except her am and once around 1pm she was 160 - I have been trying to save on strips and she seem fine now I feel bad that I didn't know she was that low. I just found out I can use the Freestyle Lite Strips in the Alpha Trach and the readings are pretty close to the original alpha track strips. I am going to try them and see how it is.

Also, hope I doing the right thing by waiting till she reaches 200 reading before I give her in shot for the evening - I had that in my notes. Will that throw her off in the am for the shot. Can I still give her the shot at 6am if her reading is 200 or more which it always is. Thanks, Ida

We Hope
06-09-2009, 05:04 PM
Ida,

About giving Baby's shot when she's at 200 or more, is that something your vet wants you to do on a regular basis or are you going with the "traditional" meal and shot every 12 hours normally?

You've answered a question I had for a long time about the AlphaTrak and the FreeStyle Lite. When you look at the "specs" of the two meters and even the meters themselves, they are VERY much alike. I'd often wondered what the results might be if one used a FreeStyle Lite strip in the AlphaTrak because it seemed like AlphaTrak was FreeStyle Lite done for animals.

What you need to be careful of is that you don't give the insulin shots too close together because that would mean there would be too much insulin in Baby's system and you'd have the lows or a hypo. Most people are using NPH or Vetsulin (both intermediate-length insulins) on a 12 hour basis. We had one case on another board where the dog was receiving his evening insulin 10 hours after his morning shot. This had to do with a daytime duration problem he was having. Those who have problems with short duration have even been known to use either of these insulins only 8 hours apart. But the reason for using them like this is because the dog in question is using the insulin too quickly. Baby doesn't seem to have any duration problems, so I'd double-check with Baby's vet to make sure of what he wants you doing when there's no problem to work out.

Kathy

lab lover
06-10-2009, 12:55 AM
I ended up giving her the shot at 7:30pm instead of 6pm with her being at 110 I thought that was too low to give her the evening shot. I don't know where I read or someone told me not too give her the insulin unless she is at least 200 so that's why I was concern about giving it too her. I give it every 12 hrs. so I will moved her shot for am to 7:30am and called the vet hopefully he or someone will be in the office. She has never been that low at the 6pm feeding so I didn't know what too do. I was afraid too give her the shot with her being so low - do you think it was from being in the sun when we bath her she no other activity other then that and she was fine all day. I just hope this doesn''t make her levels higher tomorr. It seems everything happens after the vet is closed. What is lowest reading when not too give insulin? I guess I was wrong about the 200 (just had it written down) I can't remenbered wh told me that it might have been the first vet I went too. Everyday is a new day for Baby and everyday I learned something new enventually it will worked out I know -I'm learning not too panic so much give her biscuits when she is low, but, I see so much higher numbers in am and pm that the low's pop up I get a little nervous. I looked back on her levels and she was never 110 at 6pm reading. So this was my first time and I didn't know what too do. Hopefully, I didn't messed her up for tomorr (which is here already) 2am now I couldn't sleep.

I know it takes time I and I know everyday her readings will be different and I will have too worked on that - too adjust to the low's with biscuits and figured out why she is high in am. I just wished it would come a little faster - I thought we would be doing much better since it has been almost six months since she was diagnosed. NPH is working out much better than the Vetsulin she was put on back in Jan and we haven't changed her unit dosage except once last wk he raised her to 18 for two days and it was too much for her. So I deleted some canned food and added the dry food and stayed with the 17 units. If you can let me know how long too wait if she gets another low liked that after feeding and what is the lowest they should be if they are getting there shots every 12 hrs. Thanks, Kathy Baby sleeping and doing OK - Mom is just up worrying about her. I still don't have the vision back in my eye either so when I get tired it is hard too see - couple more months -can't wait to be back too normal. Thanks, for all your help - wished I could helped other people on the board but, I not at that point yet. I know one day I will be. Ida

Patty
06-10-2009, 09:30 AM
Ida,
I would be uncomfortable with a 110 preshot number as well knowing that she goes lower later in her curve. When Ali is this low I usually wait as you did.

It really depends on the dog's curve. Those people that have a curve where the lowest number is before meal/shot I wouldn't worry so much about. But if you know that Baby goes lower at the peak of her insulin, I would wait or give a snack and retest in 1/2 hour to see if she's risen.

Right now for Ali I know that an upper 160-190 start number is good because she will go lower. It just depends on your dog's trend.

Hope your eyes continue to mend!
Patty

lab lover
06-10-2009, 04:09 PM
I'm getting so confused on what is happening here she was always so high in am in 300's or between 260-290 now this morn she was 224 , noon 254 and then at 5:30 147 we usually feed her at 6pm but, since she ate last night at 7pm I wanted to wait but, she just kept begging me to eat. I'm so use too her being in 250' s in the evening and everything is changing. I haven't changed any of her food and she still getting 17 units. When she does peak she really drops a lot so starting at the 110 or 140 I am nervous. I called my vet and he said she would be fine even at 110.

What is a good reading for them in the am and pm if I can get feedback on this I would appreciate it. I guess I'll wait 30 min before I give her the evening shot. thanks, Ida

We Hope
06-10-2009, 06:03 PM
Ida,

I think what might be happening with Baby is that she has less glucose toxicity. With almost constantly high bg's, the tissues resist, or don't respond very well to the insulin, so you can still see some high numbers.

When the glucose toxicity is gone, the tissues are able to use the insulin properly, and that means they put it to work much better, so the bg's get lower. ;)

I'm going to let others tell you what numbers they get in the morning and evening because Lucky was lower than Baby at shot time.

Kathy

BestBuddy
06-10-2009, 08:33 PM
Hi Ida,
I'm also not one to give advice because I never adjusted food or insulin for Buddy unless he was under 100 and then it was usually only a unit less insulin or maybe a bit more food. I was very aware of how Buddy's BG's reacted so I "Knew" how things were going to progess. If you think she (meaning me) must be really clever, don't, it was time spent learning and I had Buddy with diabetes for over 6 years.
Jenny
PS Remember every time you learn something new about diabetes that is great because it is one less thing to learn!

k9diabetes
06-10-2009, 09:42 PM
Hi Ida,

I think you were asked by either the vet or Dolly way back at the beginning when there was concern about the insulin dose or something like that... to not give insulin until she was at 200.

It's not something I would do as a general practice just for the reasons that Kathy outlined. It throws everything off in terms of food and insulin balance.

If you're worried about a low number at meal and injection time, you can do two small changes to avoid low blood sugar.

First, you can give her some syrup - maybe just a tablespoon or two - that will immediately start bringing her blood sugar up in the short term and won't last a long long time.

And then you can reduce the insulin dose by a few units.

The two combined should avoid any risk of a low and not throw off the timing of the insulin, which can get into overlaps, etc. when you wait.

No matter when you give it, the NPH is going to last however many hours it usually lasts, so shifting when you give it can do weird things to the food/insulin balance and to what will happen after the next injection.

Natalie

eyelostit
06-10-2009, 11:48 PM
Your doing great Ida, tho I know at times it gets crazy. Feeding the dry and then mixing in the other ingredients at the same time makes a difference.

When you pre mix the dry with the wet overnight the dry absorbs the moisture and is broken down some, so it would get digested faster, thats why you saw those highs for awhile after a meal and were getting the lows in the 70's I think it was. Now things are getting digested a bit slower and the insulin and food are matching up nicely.

When I am not comfortable with a lower reading I wait 45 min and check the bg, then give her the insulin, 100% of the time Niki went up after eating.

After seeing Baby's highs for a time and then some of the lows you were having its normal to be concerned when finally you see a 140 its hard to believe ! ;)

I'd say you and Baby are doing just fine.

lab lover
06-14-2009, 06:24 PM
Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to touch base with all of you had company this wkend and couldn't get on the computer. Baby, is back to usual readings in pm was 263, Thur, 232,Fri and then a high on Sat at 352. I think that high came from being out on the deck with us no sun hitting her but, with the heat I don't think the insulin works the way it should, I have been noticing the more she is outside with the weather warmer her readings at the end of the day are higher. On Sat 6am she was 195 and then the 352 at 6pm feeding. Today I kept her in most of the day while we had company and she was 218 at 6pm.

Every day something new pops up and I try to figure it out myself instead of calling the vet constantly - I also keep logs with notes regarding walks, how she reads,when she outside more, and other activities this way we can go over everything next month when she gets her shots and physical. I want too be able too adjust her lifestyle so we don't have too worry everyday.

My son bought me some Lifestyle Strips and I tried them Sat and Sun and compared with Alpha Track strips when she is under 200 it is twenty points lower - when she is higher it is 40-50 points higher so it is a lot closer in point difference than using the Relion monitor and strips. I will have too decide on what too do I wish I could feel more comfortable using the Relion meter but, I'm not yet - I always want to know the true reading so I don't have too worry. My husband's sister was here this wkend and she couldn't believe how much we have too do for Baby, between logging readings, mixing food and preparing, shots, and checking glucose. She is a animal lover but, said she didn't think she could lived this way and be so committed to a dog.

I didn't want to cause family fights but, if your a animal lover you do whatever you can do too make them happy and once you get that animal your committed for their lifetime - that's how I feel and think everyone on the forum feels that way too.

I think I am getting better with realizing everyday is a new day for Baby and her readings will vary from day to day by her activity level, feeding her, weather conditions, stress levels. I noticed even when we had a very bad storm the other night I could tell she was getting nervous and I knew her reading would be off.

I wanted too asked about glucose toxicity I think Kathy or Natalie mentioned it - it makes sense what you were saying but, no one ever mentioned it before. Is that when the insulin is not being absorb right thru their system correctly? Also, tonight when I gave her the shot I noticed just the tip of the needle was entered in her skin, and the rest of needle was out -there was no leakage - I wonder did I injected her wrong - I also try it twice and both timesthe same thing happened. I was thinking maybe I might of injected her near more tissue area and now she will not get the right insulin being absorb.

One more quick question how much carborhydrates should she be eating because the Mellinium Gold, dry beef and barley has around 55% and at the Feed store where we buy her food the lady was saying maybe I should changed her dry food to a lower carbor dry.

Ok, didn't mean too take up so much of everyone 's time but, I loved too hear from everyone then I know I am not the only one having hard day with Baby, I know one thing I will never give up -just hope the next day will be better thanks to my wonderful friends on this forum who have helped me so much - I can't thank you all enough. Starting too see double - just a little vision in the eye a couple more months too go before I can see good so I better get off for now. Have a good evening. Ida

ravenecw
06-14-2009, 06:59 PM
I didn't want to cause family fights but, if your a animal lover you do whatever you can do too make them happy and once you get that animal your committed for their lifetime - that's how I feel and think everyone on the forum feels that way too.

I think I am getting better with realizing everyday is a new day for Baby and her readings will vary from day to day by her activity level, feeding her, weather conditions, stress levels. I noticed even when we had a very bad storm the other night I could tell she was getting nervous and I knew her reading would be off.


I agree, I don't think you should just have an animal and when things get bad you stop taking care of it. My dog makes me happier than anyone, she is so faithful and just like my kid.

Every day is a new day and sometimes you don't know. Even with Sable, somedays really good, some not so much. In time though I think it gets better. I was really getting Sable's numbers well until her eye surgery, some days she is really good since then, some readings though (especially after eating) are not so good. But with me limiting "all" excercise right now (or at least limiting the best I can) it's hard to judge. Keep doing the best you can, sounds like your doing great, that's all we can do is the best we can.

eyelostit
06-15-2009, 12:52 AM
Hi Ida, :)

Ah the heck with the sister-in-law and people they are ones who are nuts.

lab lover
06-15-2009, 04:18 PM
Your so right were the normal ones,they don't know what there missing! Ida

janspack
06-15-2009, 04:51 PM
Hi Ida, :)

Ah the heck with the sister-in-law and people they are ones who are nuts.

Absolutely! I couldn't think about having Dazzle pts just because she has a health problem that is controllable/treatable.

I guess it must seem alot to other people watching for the first time (and it did to me when Dazzle was first diagnosed) but it's amazing how soon it became a routine that you hardly have to think about.

k9diabetes
06-15-2009, 10:32 PM
Hi Ida,

I assume when you say glucose toxicity you're talking about some resistance to the effect of the insulin that can occur after a dog (or person) has had high blood sugar for a while?

I'll be honest... I haven't paid much attention to the chemical processes behind it. I believe the insulin is absorbed properly but the body doesn't respond very well to it.

Just know that the worse your blood sugar is, the worse your response to insulin can be. So after you give your dog enough insulin to bring the blood sugar down into a good range, that resistance or lack of response to the insulin goes away and suddenly the 8 units that was perfect last week is now too much insulin and the dog settles down into needing only 7 units once that lack of sensitivity to the insuling is gone.

Also, tonight when I gave her the shot I noticed just the tip of the needle was entered in her skin, and the rest of needle was out -there was no leakage

You want to get the insulin under the skin... if you inject too shallow, you will inject into the skin rather than under it and that may affect how the insulin gets absorbed and used. Maybe alter your technique a bit and see if you can more consistently get the needle under the skin.

How much carborhydrates should she be eating

The push with dog foods is to go more protein and less grain so the feed store person is probably approaching it from that angle. With a diabetic dog, I say feed what works with the insulin. Some dogs really need some carbs to go with a strong insulin action.

If what you're feeding Baby is working for her, then I wouldn't change it.

None of us can say how much carbs Baby needs - only her body and her response to the food and insulin together can tell you if the balance is right.

Chris went to a dog food with far less grain but also went from canned food to dry food at the same time and he got a big spike of blood sugar after eating from the canned food that was lower in carbs!

Natalie

lab lover
06-18-2009, 01:45 PM
Hi Natalie

I think now some of Baby's high's and low's could be the way I am injecting her and never realized I might be doing it wrong until this morning. When I went to inject her I noticed the needle went all down into the skin and not like the other times where I just saw the tip go in. I printed up a couple pages on the forum where you show how to inject with the bevel side up. Because of not seeing good yet it is hard for me to see the bevel side - and when I inject her I try to hold the skin up and give the shot at a angle but, sometimes with her skiin so thick and the fatty part near the neck it is hard. I think it is called the flank (by the side of neck) she flinches a lot and I feel I am hurting her so I give it too her mostly in her fatty part on each side of her neck.

I am using the 29 gauge needle U-100, I just want to know should the needle be all the way in the skin or should you see some of it after you inject her. I think now that is how she was so low near dinner and other times because the insulin is not being absorbed right. Is it harder for insulin too work if your giving it in the fatty area around the neck. Will watch closely tonight. I did print out the picture of the needle will keep it in front of me tonight and try to see if I am doing it right. When we go to the vet next month I am going too show him How I do it but, can't get her too him till July. Ida

eyelostit
06-18-2009, 06:03 PM
Hi Ida,

When dx Niki got her injections in her scruff anywhere from the middle to the sides of the scruff area, she usually never flinched, I picked up her scruff area, made the tent and injected at a slight downward angle at top of tent, never thru the tent, I could feel the needle as it went thru the skin with no resistance and then injected. I think Baby would flinch if you hit a muscle as they do at times when they get a rabies shot or she may have flinched if needle went into skin area, let me find some pics or if I remember tonight I will get my mum to take the picture of my injection. Ok was able to save the picture from the BD link.
http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/picture.php?pictureid=302&albumid=3&dl=1245370932&thumb=1 (http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/album.php?albumid=3&pictureid=302) Its done the same way at top of scruff area, see how the needle is going in at an angle.

Hope this helps,
Dolly

We Hope
06-18-2009, 06:56 PM
Ida,

One thing for sure is you didn't hit a muscle. When insulin is injected into a muscle, it works much faster than it does when you inject it under the skin:

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/IM

"Intramuscular insulin injection is a technique used for both pets and people in an effort to hasten onset, compared to the usual technique of injecting subcutaneously. It's often referred to medically by the abbreviation IM.

"Because it carries with it a substantial risk of hypoglycemia, giving insulin intramuscularly should only be done with guidance from a medical professional."

http://www.bd.com/us/diabetes/page.aspx?cat=7001&id=7395

http://www.bd.com/resource.aspx?IDX=2551

There are other areas you can inject besides the scruff:

"Some veterinarians feel that the scruff is not the best place to inject because this area is prone to the formation of lumps under the skin, and because it is easier for the owner to mistakenly inject into muscle or skin. Any of these would interfere with proper insulin absorption. Other veterinarians feel that the scruff is acceptable as an injection site if the owner uses proper injection technique.

"Whichever injection sites you use, the key is to use proper pinch-up technique so that the needle goes into the fat layer below the skin - not into skin or muscle, and not through the pinch and out the other side, which just squirts insulin onto the pet's fur instead of into the pet.

"It is important to rotate injection sites, because constant use of the same spot will cause scarring, which will affect how well the insulin is absorbed."

Another reason some don't prefer using the scruff is because of the absorption from the area:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070208103248/http://bettermedicine.intervetusa.com/june2006/managing_diabetes.html

Dr. Greco:

"Is the client rotating sites?

"Is the client injecting in the proper place? (Armpit or flank instead of in the scruff; the scruff is a poorly vascularized area with slow absorption.)"

When we went to Caninsulin/Vetsulin, I switched over to the Intervet suggested areas for shots:

http://www.vetsulin.com/vet/DosingOverview.aspx

"Using a U-40 insulin syringe, administer the injection subcutaneously, 2 to 5 cm (3/4 to 2 in) from the dorsal midline [spine], varying from behind the scapulae [shoulder blades] to the mid-lumbar [back] region and alternating sides."

In the morning, I would give Lucky's shot on one side, and in the evening on the other. I'd also vary the injection site by working my way up and down the areas above. This made sure I wasn't giving the shots in the same place all the time.

Because Lucky wouldn't let me either do a pinch or tent on his skin, my answer about whether I could see the needle would be different.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/petdiabetes/images/c/cc/Propinj.jpg

Correct way to give an injection when "tenting" the skin. This makes sure the insulin is injected into the skin flap created by "tenting" it. When the skin "tent" is released, the injected insulin is under it, or subcutaneous.

Does this picture help?

The next picture is the wrong way to give a shot:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/petdiabetes/images/a/a2/Improp.jpg

Wrong way to give a shot: The needle has totally passed through the "tented skin". The insulin, or any other injected drug, will be injected into the air. Note that in this graphic, the injection point is much closer to the "pinch" area holding the "tent" up. In the correct graphic, the injection point is closer to the body.

HTH!

Kathy

lab lover
06-19-2009, 12:46 PM
Kathy, Dolly,


I just read everything on injecting, pulling up the skin like a tent also went over to the website and went over everything. Sometimes I think I am doing it right but, sometimes her skin is so thick when I pulled it up and squeeze it - it is hard for me too hold it right (this is in the scruff area around the neck) When I try by her side she doesn't have a lot and flinches. Hopefully I will get this right. Don't know why this is bothering I guess because I couldn't get it in one time but, if I was doing wrong every time she wouldn't have good levels from time to time she would run high or low everyday -right? I trie dprinting out the picture showing the person holding the skin up but, it would go back to the beginning of the website if anyone has a pic pls send by email than I can print them and keep it in front of me when I inject her - I'm the type of person I liked too look at what I am doing when I am doing it. Sounds stupid I guess but, poor memory or old age - who knows. Thanks for helping everyone. Ida

We Hope
06-19-2009, 01:50 PM
Ida,

Three of them on their way to you by email! ;)

Kathy

lab lover
07-01-2009, 05:58 PM
Next week Baby will be going for her first vaccines since being diagnosed is there anything I should know or asked the vet before she gets her shots. Also, what blood test should be done on her - the other vet I started with would do a chemistry profile when she was diagnosed in Jan is this all she needs. I noticed Dolly, posted something about a titers test - I am not familar with this test and should Baby have it done. I just don't want too spend money on test that is not needed.

What about urine if I can collect it what should they test it for just glucose or a complete urine test. We are not going till next wk any info would be appreciated.

She has been going high in the am and pm and has loss 4 more pounds so I am anxious for the vet too checked her out. This morning I injected wrong again and she stayed in the 300's all day. I still have hardly any vision in my eye from surgery in April so I have to really be careful when I inject her. I felt bad all day I knew that was the reason she only dropped 50 points the whole day so the insulin was never absorbed - can't wait till I can see normal again. Take care, everyone and thanks again for all your help. Ida

ravenecw
07-01-2009, 06:38 PM
Next week Baby will be going for her first vaccines since being diagnosed is there anything I should know or asked the vet before she gets her shots. Also, what blood test should be done on her - the other vet I started with would do a chemistry profile when she was diagnosed in Jan is this all she needs. I noticed Dolly, posted something about a titers test - I am not familar with this test and should Baby have it done. I just don't want too spend money on test that is not needed.

What about urine if I can collect it what should they test it for just glucose or a complete urine test. We are not going till next wk any info would be appreciated.

She has been going high in the am and pm and has loss 4 more pounds so I am anxious for the vet too checked her out. This morning I injected wrong again and she stayed in the 300's all day. I still have hardly any vision in my eye from surgery in April so I have to really be careful when I inject her. I felt bad all day I knew that was the reason she only dropped 50 points the whole day so the insulin was never absorbed - can't wait till I can see normal again. Take care, everyone and thanks again for all your help. Ida


Sounds like my day, I didn't think I injected wrong (but how do you know I guess)..... 300's all day for me too (the last couple of days have been decent but today was horrible).... interesting we had similar days and I have never heard of these tests but will be waiting to see what others say (as I haven't had to take my dog in since being diagnosed for any shots or anything yet)...

Busy07
07-01-2009, 07:21 PM
I'm with you on the titer tests. I'd like to know if the dogs REALLY need the injections every year. I don't want to administer more drugs unnecessarily.

We Hope
07-01-2009, 07:26 PM
Hi Ida!

What Dolly is talking about would be done instead of vaccinating:

http://www.caberfeidh.com/CanineTiters.htm

"A "titer" is a measurement of how much antibody to a certain virus (or other antigen) is circulating in the blood at that moment.

"Titer testing is usually done in dogs for the most common and deadly canine viruses, parvovirus (CPV) and distemper (CDV). Rabies titer testing is also done, usually for purposes of travel to foreign countries that require it."

http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/titer_test.htm

"Fortunately, there is a tool that veterinarians and dog owners can use to determine whether or not a dog really needs further vaccination at any given time. It’s called a “titer test,” and it’s readily available, not terribly expensive, and offers multiple advantages over the practices (intentional or not) of over-vaccination and under-vaccination.

"The term “titer” refers to the strength or concentration of a substance in a solution. When testing vaccine titers in dogs, a veterinarian takes a blood sample from a dog and has the blood tested for the presence and strength of the dog’s immunological response to a viral disease. If the dog demonstrates satisfactory levels of vaccine titers, the dog is considered sufficiently immune to the disease, or possessing good “immunologic memory,” and not in need of further vaccination against the disease at that time.

"Using the new TiterCHEKTM test kit, your veterinarian can now draw blood from your dog when you first arrive for his annual health exam, and within 15 minutes, be able to tell you whether or not he needs any vaccines."

So what you are doing when you have a titers test done, is to check how much immunity to the particular disease is in the animal's body from previous vaccinations or possible exposures to it. If there's enough immunity, you don't need to give the vaccine.

There are two schools of thought about diabetic pets and vaccinations. One is that they should be vaccinated as if they didn't have diabetes and the other is that we should not be vaccinating them unless there's no other option.

Those who believe in not vaccinating are basing this on diabetes affecting the immune system; the vaccination affects it also. Their thought is that vaccinating can also affect the diabetes.

When Lucky was diagnosed, I asked John which "side of the fence" of this he was on. He's on the one about not vaccinating unless it's absolutely necessary. So Lucky no longer had annual distemper, etc. vaccinations done. I needed to ask him the same type of question about my present dog, who has a seizure disorder and his answer was the same as it was for Lucky.

He has had no distemper, etc. vaccinations for close to 3 years; we will be giving him one this fall. Last year, his 3 year rabies vaccine was due and we did that.

Doing titers testing does cost more than giving vaccinations for the most part. The other "bad news" with titers testing is that some states and localities will not accept titers results in lieu of something like a rabies vaccination. This goes according to your state; the laws are different on whether or not titers testing is accepted for an animal with a health problem instead of a vaccination from state to state and possibly different by counties or cities.

Since you do blood testing on Baby, you wouldn't need to have her urine tested for it specifically; you also have the ketone testing sticks which I'm sure you use regularly if Baby's running high so you wouldn't be getting any information from the urine in that respect. I believe I would have a urinalysis (full urine testing) and a chem panel (full blood testing) done to see if everything's OK.

You might want to think about getting an Inject Ease to help you give Baby her shots:

http://www.palcolabs.com/section_products/injectease.html

http://www.palcolabs.com/section_support/downloads/InjectEase_FAQ.pdf

http://www.palcolabs.com/section_wheretobuy/salesmain.html

http://www.childrenwithdiabetes.com/d_06_310.htm

"The Inject-Ease is designed to fit most disposable syringes. ReliOn syrings, however, do not work with the Inject-Ease."

Hope at least some of this helps! :)

Kathy