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**k9diabetes** · 05-09-2009, 01:08 PM

Re: New, help, cancer, diabetes, cushing

Hi De Anna,

I just have a few minutes but wondered if the vet did any testing for Cushings. If so, do you have those results.

Cushings and diabetes can be very hard to sort out - have seen a lot of dogs that actually "only" have diabetes. So I always urge caution with a new diagnosis of both. A lot depends on how the Cushings was diagnosed.

I know of only 2 dogs out of probably a hundred that managed on one injection of Vetsulin per day so I would talk to the vet about going to two a day, 12 hours apart. The dose can be reduced so that any overlap is not a problem. And a curve of Tee Jay's blood glucose would really help - you can do this yourselves and post it here and we can give you some ideas about how he's doing... This is where you test his blood sugar premeal and injection and then about every 2 hours until bedtime.

As I recall, mast cell tumors are histamine driven... is he on anti-histamine?

Seems like with these one or two disorders added to the mast cell tumors that you may need to work out an arrangement with his home vet so that he can monitor and coordinate his care. I would not be comfortable with multiple vets wandering in and out. A good internal medicine specialist would probably be willing to keep up with you by email, especially ones at the teaching hospitals. There are very good ones at Texas A&M and Univ. of Georgia in Athens.

What state is the home vet in?

Natalie

**frijole** · 05-09-2009, 01:51 PM

Re: New, help, cancer, diabetes, cushing

DeAnna,

Hi and welcome. You have your hands full don't you. I agree that it would be great if you had a specialist that you could have the other vets consult with so there would be one person that knew the big picture given so much is going on with Tee Jay.

I'm a cush mom so I'll address those questions as best I can. I also would be interested in the testing that was done to dx cushings... agree it can be difficult especially if there is also diabetes involved.

Re the supplements. I have a 15+ yr old schnauzer that has had cushings for 3 yrs now. I started giving her milkthistle for her liver about a year into her treatment and it really brought her liver enzymes down. I just buy it from GNC in capsules. I pour 1/2 of a capsule in her food in the am and the other 1/2 at night. I also use fish oil.

I have no positive knowledge regarding any of the "miracle all natural cushings remedies" you find available. I know some members tried them but to my recall they all eventually treated with traditional medicine... but they weren't dealing w/the issues you are.

Your dog's tummy bloat is probably from the cushings. Very common. Are there any other cushings symptoms like ravenous appetite, drinking tons of water, peeing in the RV, hind leg weakness/shaking, hairloss, etc?

Note there are different types of cushings. By chance did this young and perplexed vet indicate what kind of cushings your dog has?

You treat accordingly. I ask because atypical cushings is treated with flax, lignans and melatonin - all natural.

So as you can see getting copies of the actual tests and typing them here would greatly help us to help you. Also, if you haven't done so - start a file of all tests and a diary of symptoms so you can track over time and refer to it in the future. It really helps.

For now - get the diabetes under control. Big hugs and keep in touch!

Kim

**Harley PoMMom** · 05-09-2009, 03:51 PM

Re: New, help, cancer, diabetes, cushing

Hi De Anna and Tee Jay,

Welcome to the forum, first let me tell you that I am no expert on Cushings, but there are many here that are, they have helped me and my cushpup Harley tremendously, so hang in there, someone will be along to help out.
Next, your bloodwork you had done on Tee Jay, they will want to see the units, (example for Harley from his Lab~ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE 416 H .Refererence Range 10-150 U/L ), labs use differents units. They wil also want to know what and when the test or tests the vet used to diagnose the cushings in Tee Jay, was it the Low-Dose Dexamethasone Suppression test? And remember to add the units. They will want to know his symptoms too, is he panting alot, drinking alot, peeing alot, any other symptoms you can think of, write it all down here. Did Tee Jay have any other test done? UltraSounds? Now, Take a deep breath

I know this is alot to throw at you right now, but if you could list some of these things for them, and I'm sure I've missed some

someone will be by and be able to give you some very knowledgable advice.

Take care, Harley and Lori

**BestBuddy** · 05-09-2009, 04:14 PM

Re: New, help, cancer, diabetes, cushing

Hi De Anna and Tee Jay.

Welcome.

I'm glad Natalie also put your post in the diabetes sectios because the cancer and maybe even the cushings is something you will just have to wait out but the diabetes must be sorted out now.
Insulin is a lifesaver but must be given in the right amounts at the right times. Some start with only one injection but it seems that two 12hours apart is the outcome.

You are BG testing so that is great and you can keep a check on how things are going. It sounds like you are already feeding twice a day so adding the second injection won't be a problem. Have you checked the BG through out the day ( a curve), this will give you lots more info regarding insulin dosages.

If it was me (remember this is just my opinion) if the Bg numbers were all 375-435 throughout the day then I would be doing 6iu and 6iu 12 hours apart and checking the numbers. Remember it can take days for the dosages to settle in so unless there were any lows I would hold the same dosage for 3-4 days before evaluating.

Jenny

**AlisonandMia** · 05-09-2009, 04:25 PM

Re: New, help, cancer, diabetes, cushing

Hi,

I'm sorry to hear that your little guy has so much going on.

We have checked with another Vet in differnt State that knows us and Tee Jay and he tells us the Cushing Disease is GOOD/BAD news. the good part is, it is know to slow down Mast Cell Cancer growth rate. So may not want to treat it with drugs.. Bad news is Cushing will also kill him... but which first Cancer or Cushing??? don't know.

Cushing's is a very slow-progressing disease and if left untreated usually takes at least 2 years to kill a dog so I suspect that the Cushing's itself is probably the least of his worries and as one of the vets said, it will be "treating" the Mast Cell Cancer and probably making him feel better if the Mast Cell Tumor is putting out a lot of histamine - we lost a dog to a Mast Cell Cancer and have seen first hand what high histamine levels can do. Unfortunately the Cushing's is going to be making treating the diabetes more of a challenge.

One question: What medications is Tee Jay on?

Alison

**DeAnna2** · 05-09-2009, 05:52 PM

Re: New, help, cancer, diabetes, cushing

Thanks so much for the fast replys. Funny you should mention UltraSounds, we would like one done but the closest Vet with a UltraSound Machine is in Las Vegas, 150 miles away. We called every Vet in the phone book (only 3) no one has a UltraSound Machine. You would think one would come in handy.

De Anna

**DeAnna2** · 05-09-2009, 06:45 PM

Re: New, help, cancer, diabetes, cushing

Originally posted by AlisonandMia View Post

Hi,

Unfortunately the Cushing's is going to be making treating the diabetes more of a challenge.

One question: What medications is Tee Jay on?

Alison

Why and HOW will the cushing make treating diabetes harder?

The only meds Tee Jay is on is Vetsulin U-40 at 6 units.

We feed him twice a day, helps with "up chucks" to keep some food in his tommy. During the day we give him a few pieces of dried liver bits, from Dr. Foster & Smith Co. So far it helps.

Today we tested his blood every 2 hours, here are the results:

8:am = 427 before feeding and shot of 6 units
10: am = 364
12: pm = 282
2: pm = 312
5: pm = supper and shot of 3 units, no blood test
7: pm = 284

We decided to give him 3 units at supper because we saw his blood glucose was rising at 2. Our Vet friend said to start with 6 units in morning and if we see it's needed do 3 units at supper. We may have to increase the supper shot to 6 units.. not sure???

I see from the post that he should be getting his shot 12 hours apart... we did bad today

as we gave him his second shot 8 hours after the first...

If i understand correctly, we should feed him around 7 am, wait 30 minutes, give shot of 6 units, then feed again at 7:PM, wait 30 minutes and give shot of 3 or 6 units.. is that right?

What happens if one gets up late

or gets home later then 7 pm at night???

How serious is the 12 hour thing?

What happens like today, when the shots were only 8 hours apart?

My DH (dear "darn" Husband) doesn't see it a problem when we give him his shots. But i do, from what i read on this form, it seems very important to keep them 12 hours apart.

Please forgive so many questions..

**Truffa's Mom** · 05-09-2009, 07:12 PM

Re: New, help, cancer, diabetes, cushing

Hi DeAnna & Tee Jay

Welcome and sorry to hear that your pup has so many things going on. The other people here has already gave you great advice. So I am just going to add my 5 cents.

Since you are interested in herbal supplements and natural alternatives to help Tee Jay, I think you would be interested in using Essiac, which is one of the most recommended basic natural treatments for cancer in pets. It will also benefit his liver and in general his immune system. The link that I am giving you is the Essiac that I am using right now. I have used several brands, but this one I like it better. You can search for other alternatives at http://caninecancer.com/index.html or read about dosages and what other people are using and how at www.onlynaturalpet.com.

I will keep you and your pup in my prayers.

Marcela & The Choco Labs

**Truffa's Mom** · 05-09-2009, 07:20 PM

Re: New, help, cancer, diabetes, cushing

Hi De Anna, here is how Cortisol (which is high in Cushings desease) will affect insulin

Cortisol counteracts insulin by increasing gluconeogenesis and promotes breakdown of lipids (lipolysis), and proteins, and mobilization of extrahepatic amino acids and ketone bodies

Here is the link where you can see how Cushings will affect several organs and why so many pets with cushings suffer also with diabetes, and another immune deficiencies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol

Marcela & The Choco Labs

**DeAnna2** · 05-09-2009, 07:49 PM

Re: New, help, cancer, diabetes, cushing

Frijole said (milkthistle ... I just buy it from GNC in capsules. I pour 1/2 of a capsule in her food in the am and the other 1/2 at night.)

What strength of Milkthistle?

(Are there any other cushings symptoms like ravenous appetite, drinking tons of water, peeing in the RV, hind leg weakness/shaking, hairloss, etc? )

Yes all of the above now for about 2 or 3 weeks, as to hairloss i have just noticed his coat looks thinner, tommy the most. He also doesn't have the stamina he had 6 months ago.

No testing for Cushing has been done so far. We just found all this out on May 6th. Because we will NOT be treating the Cushing, we will not be doing any testing.

The only treating for Cushing we will do is by Herbs, as soon as we find out what is best.

Both Vets are telling us, from the blood work done, that he has Cushings. What kind...

didn't know there were kinds....

is he on anti-histamine

No not at this time. We are able to help with the upset tommy by feeding him twice a day and in between feeding him "dried Liver Treats, by Dr. Foster & Smith co"

It seems the Cushing is helping tooo with histamine.. Good/bad news.

(I ask because atypical cushings is treated with flax, lignans and melatonin - all natural.)

Now this is interesting, All three would not harm him if he does not have Cushing.... Can you tell me Please... how much of each would i give?

What is Lignans?

Melatonin?????

i used to take this to help me sleep... how does it help a dog with Cushing???

Hope i didn't miss any questions.. if so please let me know... As for VETS.... because we are full time RVers and traveling it's very hard to impossible to work with a specialty Vet.

The Vet (Cal) we work the closest with, is our friend from Wis. Been with him for close to 50 years, first the father and now one of his sons. Cal, told us he will be willing to work with other Vets as we travel around.. Problem is, Vets are different then human Drs. They can't practiced bewteen states...

Today we tested his blood every 2 hours, here are the results:

8:am = 427 before feeding and shot of 6 units
10: am = 364
12: pm = 282
2: pm = 312
5: pm = supper and shot of 3 units, no blood test
7: pm = 284

We decided to give him 3 units at supper because we saw his blood glucose was rising at 2. Our Vet, Cal said to start with 6 units in morning and if we see it's needed, do 3 units at supper. We may have to increase the supper shot to 6 units.. not sure???

I see from the post that he should be getting his shot 12 hours apart... we did bad today

as we gave him his second shot 8 hours after the first...

If i understand correctly, we should feed him around 7 am, wait 30 minutes, give shot of 6 units, then feed again at 7:PM, wait 30 minutes and give shot of 3 or 6 units.. is that right?

What happens if one gets up late

or gets home later then 7 pm at night???

How serious is the 12 hour thing?

What happens like today, when the shots were only 8 hours apart?

My DH (dear "darn" Husband) doesn't see it a problem as to, when we give him his shots. But i do, from what i read on this form, it seems very important to keep them 12 hours apart.

Please forgive so many questions..

**BestBuddy** · 05-09-2009, 07:56 PM

Re: New, help, cancer, diabetes, cushing

Injections should be fairly close to 12 hours apart with food. You only gave 3iu at the 8 hour mark so it should be ok but if you are giving a full dose (6iu) it could cause problems. The reason you are waiting 30. minutes after food to inject (guessing) is that you need to make sure the food stays down.

Regulation is much easier when the amount of food/insulin and times stay the same but you can vary then 1-2 hours in an emergency and still be ok.

Cushings can make it extremely hard to get good regulation with diabetes but until you give the 2 injections daily for a few days you won't know how this will affect Tee Jay.

Jenny

**stardeb55** · 05-09-2009, 08:04 PM

Re: New, help, cancer, diabetes, cushing

DeAnna, my 1st Cushpup, Barkley, had been successfully treated for Cushing's for about 6 years when he developed lymphoma, so I really do know what a fine line you are having to tread. I was working with 3 specialists to take care of Barkley & all of us made the decision that the cancer would kill him, long before the Cushing's would. In your case, as others have indicated, your priorit is going to have to be the diabetes, as I'm sure you know diabetic complications can be life-threatening.

Concerning your question about the high cortisol making the diabetes more difficult to control, I really like the way Natalie (k9diabetes) describes the problem:

High cortisol means, high blood glucose.

There is one suggestion I would like to make when it comes to Cushing's treatment, which is a drug called Anipryl. Anipryl is normally used to treat canine cognitive disorder, & is really not considered to be a first choice of medicine to treat Cushing's as it usually does nothing to lower the high levels of cortisol. Where it might be helpful for you & TeeJay is with symptoms, as it is known to help ease some of the symptoms such as the excessive drinking & urination which usually helps improve the pups quality of life.

Debbie

**frijole** · 05-09-2009, 08:49 PM

Re: New, help, cancer, diabetes, cushing

Hi - I see you have 2 threads going. I answered here instead of the cushings one since getting the diabetes under control is more important and the diabetes "experts" are over here.

Milk thistle is an herbal supplement said to support liver function. I read about it and alot of cush parents use it. I didn't even try it til my dog had been on regular medication for quite a while. On blood panels the ALK PHOS levels in cush dogs are elevated. Mine was still quite high so I decided to give the herbs a try and they went down significantly (50%) so I have stuck with them. Its hard to know but I don't consider it a coincidence.

Dogs that have atypical cushings are the ones that take melatonin, flaxseed/lignans. Here is a link :

http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetCo...chunkiid=21801

I have not used them as my dog has pituitary cushings. I HAVE used melatonin with my dog. I'm not sure if it serves additional purposes with atypical dogs but I have used it when she is restless at night (very common with cush dogs) and it calms her just enough to sleep and quick pacing/walking on my head!

From your response there was no specific test done for cushings. (?) It sounds as if the vet did a blood panel and ASSUMES cushings. If this is the case I wouldn't be so sure the dog has cushings. Natalie who has alot of experience with diabetic dogs said the same thing (earlier post here) so I think we focus on the diabetes for now.

I'm glad you found us.
Kim

**eyelostit** · 05-09-2009, 10:59 PM

Re: New, help, cancer, diabetes, cushing

Hi DeAnne,

I'm sorry your doggie is going thru all of this and how worried you must be.

Ditto on the 2 meals a day and 2 injections, usually the injections are the same dose. I would ask your vet in CA about the vetsulin dose 2x day and usually a 2x day dose is less than a once a day dosing.

Its good you are testing the bg

This is a link to a holistic recipe some have used for cancer.

http://home.online.no/~dusan/diseases/cancer/cancer_dr_budwig.html

I'm glad you found us.

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