Regulation - Getting there?

[razal337]

Hi...I have a newly diagnosed 5yr old yellow lab with diabetes. He is 74lbs and currently using humulin 17 units 2x a day. The vets are still trying to regulate to the right dosage for him. He seems to be doing well and is back to his same old troublesome self. However, his blood levels are still in the 300's.
We had been bringing him to the vet and leaving him for the day and they would monitor his blood levels. I suggested I try at home...Well...this is not going well. This crazy guy is having no part of this process. I tried the carpal pad...got blood, but he yelped and now wants no part of that. Tried the ear...same thing. Was trying the lip and he won't stay still. He gets all crazy when he sees me with the meter. I have looked at online videos and they all seem to show older calmer dogs and they just sit there. Anyone out there have a young spunky lab going through this with any suggestions?:confused:

[pgcor]

Hi! I'm a little afraid of posting this, but here goes. I have an 8 year old miniature pinscher who has had diabetes now for almost 2 years. I have not been able to check his blood at home because he is so hyper. In fact, he had to be muzzled for his shots for quite some time after diagnosis. I had to force the shots or he would have died.

For testing, I tried a few places as well and got the same reaction you're getting. As soon as the clicker pen or monitor came out he was GONE. I did, however, over the course of trying, get blood once. Wouldn't you know the monitor showed an error.

However, I have to live with the expense and irritation of having to take him for curves all the time and I can't spot test when he goes high every once in a while either.

It's been extremely frustrating for me as well. I don't want to discourage anyone from attempting home testing though. I just have not been successful with my Pip.

I did laugh reading your post, because I thought the same thing you did - how do these dogs sit so still? I can't even get my dog to sit that still without testing!

I haven't given up hope though and still try on occasion. I really hope you can do this because it's a real blessing to check at home. Good luck!!!!

Pam and Pip

[janspack]

I'm very lucky with Dazzle. When I get the monitor out of the drawer, she just comes and sits on the sofa beside me! OK she doesn't like it that much but she does put up with it very well. I try to alternate which side I take the test from (I use her lips) and I don't think it really hurts that much.

Even so, there are times when she shakes her head or does something silly, just when you've got a lovely drop of blood ready to put on the test strip. :D Very frustrating.

I'm sure you've tried bribing him with titbits etc?? Dazzle knows now that as soon as the monitor beeps, she's going to get a cuddle at the least and a treat if she's very lucky!;) It must be very frustrating for you not being able to monitor him at home.

[KramiesSister]

It might help to try poking him without the clicker...just use the lancet yourself to poke. This sometimes helps because an agitated dog becomes even more agitated with the clicking noise. OR you could try taking the lancet out of the device and just pressing the clicker in places and get him used to the sound without the poke so he gets used to the clicking noise without feeling anything.

I wish I could be of more help but somehow I'm one of the lucky ones with a dog who doesn't care. I remember when Pam and Pip were going through the process of trying and I kept thinking, wow, this is one determined FurMom, I couldn't imagine having to wrestle a squirmy dog for shots. And I can't imagine its any easier with a big dog!

I am impressed with everyones perserverance, it may just take some getting used to on his part. Good luck and keep trying!!

Breanne and Kramer

[k9diabetes]

Sounds like it will be a matter of training him in small steps... see this post for the same basic problem...

http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=804&page=7

Natalie

[razal337]

My Brady (yellow lab)has been recently switched to this food once we received his Diabetes diagnosis. He is not fat. He actually is in great shape and weighs about 74lbs. This food makes him poop many times a day and we are now having a problem at times where he can't hold it and we either wake up to a surpise on the floor when we get up , or when my husband comes home around noon to check on him. This is very frustrating. Anyone out there have a similar size dog? How much do you feed? I have been feeding him 2 3/4c am/pm. Today I tried 2c am...3/4c noon........2c pm......

[Busy07]

Hi there,

Oliver was prescribed this food, also, with his diagnosis. He's an 8 month-old puppy. He was a poop factory too when he was adjusting and now he's getting more into a routine.

In his case, because he's a puppy, they are having us feed him a little more than what an adult dog would get. We too, take his allotted food for the day, and spread it out over three meals.

My thoughts would be, because this food is lower in calories, I certainly wouldn't deter from the recommended feeding for his size on the bag or instructions from the vet especially since he isn't overweight. I think you'll find that his stools will lessen as his body acclimates more to the new food.

[k9diabetes]

WD is infamous for producing prodigious amounts of poop! All that fiber! :o

Easiest way to sort out how much to feed, if you were measuring the food before or can approximate how much you were giving, is to give the same number of calories with the new food as the old food.

Pretty much all of the food manufacturers have web sites that list the calorie content per cup.

So if you were feeding Food A and giving 2 cups per meal and it's 300 calories per cup, you feed however many cups of Food B that would likewise deliver 300 calories.

Science Diet WD's page is here: http://www.hillspet.com/hillspet/products/productDetails.hjsp?PRODUCT<>prd_id=845524441760433

If you're feeding the same number of calories and Oliver just can't hold it, then perhaps talk to the vet about cutting out some of the WD and replacing it with what he used to eat.

Does he definitely need three meals a day?

Might cut down on how often he has to go if you can only give him two meals.

Natalie

[Busy07]

The reason for 3 meals is he just won't eat a full meal in one feeding. He wouldn't do that before he got sick. We tried going down to the two meals for a week and he just wasn't eating well. The vet wanted him to get enough calories especially since he's a puppy. He only "goes" 4 times a day now.

I wrote the above this morning and, of course, it's been on my mind all day. He used to eat Hill's Sensitive Stomach and Hill's Puppy (mixed). I need to search the site for ideas of healthy feeding.

One of my biggest concerns is most of the dogs that I read on here are older than Oliver. I am concerned that he isn't getting all of the nutrition that he needs on W/D. Any pointers to the right reading would be quite helpful.

[razal337]

Hi ...Brady's mom here...
We are still struggling to get Brady regulated. We have had numerous bouts of "low sugar" situations which is very scary. He was on 15units Humulin 2x a day and now the vet has dropped his dose to 15units once a day. It has been about 4 weeks since Brady was first diagnosed. Since we will be going away on vacation I beleive the intent is to keep on the higher side while we are gone. I know this is not where we want to keep him, but at least it will hopefully eliminate the scary situation of "low sugar". My dad will be staying at the house while we are gone and I have a bunch of great friends that are offering to help where needed as are the vets.

What is typical with getting to regulation? This is so frustrating and worrisome....Thanks

[fatdog55]

Well, by going from 15 units twice daily to 15 units once per day - you will certainly achieve the goal of sending his bgs higher.
Depending on how low Brady was going, I would have thought that lowering the dosage by a few units on EACH shot would have been more appropriate.

[eileen]

Well, by going from 15 units twice daily to 15 units once per day - you will certainly achieve the goal of sending his bgs higher.
Depending on how low Brady was going, I would have thought that lowering the dosage by a few units on EACH shot would have been more appropriate.

I most certainly agree, cutting NPH from 15u twice a day to 15u given once a day is, in my opinion, crazy! NPH is to be given twice a day, if cutting back on the dose is necessary then it needs to be cut back, but still given twice a day. As was stated, this move will most definitely send the bgs sky high. Altho temporary high bgs will not kill, over a period of time ketones can develop which will require immediate attention and CAN be serious if not deadly. Eileen

[We Hope]

NPH insulin is not considered to be a long-acting, but an intermediate-acting insulin. This means that there is a need for more than one shot a day of it.

If we use the "one shot" premise of Caninsulin/Vetsulin as an example, here's where it creates problems. Caninsulin/Vetsulin is a Lente insulin and also considered to be an intermediate-acting insulin, just as NPH is. The people I knew who initially began with this method had no success with it at all, but their dogs regulated easily and quickly when put on twice-daily dosing.

The concept for the Caninsulin/Vetsulin one shot per day is based on giving a large dose (all of the insulin for that day) in the morning after breakfast. The dog is then to be fed 6-8 hours later with no insulin shot:

http://www.vetsulin.com/vet/DosingFeeding.aspx

Dogs administered insulin once daily

"The first meal (e.g. 1/4-1/3 of the daily ration) is given prior to the morning insulin injection. This allows the owner to see that the dog is feeling well and eating normally before the insulin is administered.

"The second meal (the remainder of the daily ration) is usually given about 6-8 hours later."

The larger second meal is meant to be fed before the insulin starts "peaking" (when the insulin's hardest at work)--this is what's meant to keep the dog from having a serious hypo.

I knew one person whose dog struggled on this method without being regulated for 7 months. Many times, he would be rushed to the vet or ER with a serious hypo because that day, his insulin peaked before the second meal was either given or had digested enough to handle the amount of insulin given that morning. He was very easily regulated once he was switched to twice-daily dosing.

There's just no good way to "stretch" an intermediate-acting insulin into doing the job of a long-acting one.

http://www.vetsulin.com/vet/faq.aspx#16

"Can Vetsulin really be used only once-a-day in dogs?

"Clinical studies have demonstrated that approximately one-third of diabetic dogs can be maintained adequately on once-daily doses of Vetsulin. The other two-thirds of dogs will require twice-daily administration of Vetsulin."

So you see that the majority of dogs will need to use the intermediate-acting insulin twice a day.

When there are problems with lows or hypos, an insulin reduction is definitely in order, but in cutting out one of the 15 unit injections, you also cut out 12 hours worth of insulin to manage bg's in the process. He surely won't hypo, but he will be having hyperglycemia problems. If it was felt that there was a need to do such a drastic insulin reduction, 7.5 units twice a day would have provided at least some insulin "coverage" 24 hours a day.

Again, while Brady surely does need less insulin, I don't believe he can do well with once-daily dosing and probably not with cutting his total insulin dosage for the day in half.

Kathy