Commercial dog foods for Diabetic

[sibhus]

Hi all, i actually started off on the k9cushings forum suspecting my dog of having cushings. Back in November 2013 my dogs glucose was 135 prior to a liver mass tumor removal. Just yesterday it had increased to 365 and i had noticed my husky was urinating and drinking excessively feeling dull with weakness in the hinds legs.

The vet is convinced she has just diabetes based on the ultrasound and cbc tests but she still pants. My questions are have i caught this early enough to prevent an outbreak of cataracts? Also my initial dosage is 8 units twice a day which seems a tad low for a 70lb dog but im curious given its this low, could a healthy diet and exercise ween her off insulin? Also do diabetic dogs pant on occasion as the cushings dogs do? Finally i was curious what dry/wet foods are recommended or what are you using for diabetic dogs?

Thanks for the help, Cal.

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: Husky owner with diabetes questions

Hello welcome to the forum Cal

As you, ll see our dogs here are on different diets. They need to eat food they, ll gobble up and like. I went to my pet food store to get a diabetic friendly food.

A healthy diet, exercise and insulin will regulate our dogs, they can live a normal life. Food and exercise won, t ween her off insulin.

Your right 8 units is low for a 70 lb dog. By doing a 12 hour curve blood testing every 2 hours will help in changing doses.

As soon as she gets more insulin by doing the curve, her urinating, thirst and leg weakness symptoms will subside.

Some dogs get cataracts some don, t, cataract surgery is an option if their a good candidate for surgery.

The first thing you need to do us preform at curve. You can do a curve at home. You need a glucose meter, strips that match that meter and lancets. Theres videos on site to help you

Did the vet do a curve?
Is your dog spade?
Does she have any medical conditions?
Is she taking any medications?
What food is she eating?

Were here to help

Mo

[Eddie]

Re: Husky owner with diabetes questions

Hello and welcome

Mo has already answered most of your questions so I don't have a lot to add.

Our dog (who does not usually pant much) started panting a lot after his evening meal when he was first diagnosed. He would do it for about an hour and only in the evening. It gradually wore off as we increased his insulin and got him better regulated. I assume that it was just because his blood glucose would rise quickly after a meal and gave him something like a hot flush.

You can't manage diabetes with just exercise and good food. your dog will need the insulin as well. Exercise plays a part and in some dogs it can have quite an effect on their blood glucose levels but it doesn't do the job that insulin does.

Similarly a healthy diet will probably help but no more than that - and what is a "healthy" diet seems to vary completely from one dog to another. The key thing with food is that you feed them something that they will reliably eat every day - so you can give them the same amount every day and balance it with their insulin. There are no real rules about this. What suits one dog doesn't suit another and people on here manage their dogs well on a whole variety of foods. We just carried on feeding what we already were feeding as our dog had another digestive problem which we didn't want to upset with a diet change. If there is no reason to change what you are feeding then you might consider just sticking with it for now.

8 units is where we started for our 63lb dog. We are now up to 14 units but we got there very gradually and with a lot of testing along the way. Best to go up very slowly and check that you don't overshoot the correct dose.

It is all a bit of a learning process but there is a lot of info and experience available on this forum. It does all become much easier as you go along.
Antonia

[momofdecker]

Re: Husky owner with diabetes questions

Hi all, i actually started off on the k9cushings forum suspecting my dog of having cushings. Back in November 2013 my dogs glucose was 135 prior to a liver mass tumor removal. Just yesterday it had increased to 365 and i had noticed my husky was urinating and drinking excessively feeling dull with weakness in the hinds legs.

The vet is convinced she has just diabetes based on the ultrasound and cbc tests but she still pants. My questions are have i caught this early enough to prevent an outbreak of cataracts? Also my initial dosage is 8 units twice a day which seems a tad low for a 70lb dog but im curious given its this low, could a healthy diet and exercise ween her off insulin? Also do diabetic dogs pant on occasion as the cushings dogs do? Finally i was curious what dry/wet foods are recommended or what are you using for diabetic dogs?

Thanks for the help, Cal.

The safe starting range for a diabetic dog is 1/5 to 1/4 of their weight in kg. So a 70 pound dog would = approx. 31 kg. 31 x .25 = 7.75 (round up to 8 for the starting dosage). Having said that, if your pup does have other concurrent disease such as cushings, pancreatitis and/or hypothyroidism going on - she could be experiencing some insulin resistance from those diseases as each individually could cause insulin resistance.

If that is the case, until the underlying disease is treated she could end up needing a higher than average dose of insulin. Ask your vet about using urine strips to test for ketones. They can be found at most local pharmacies. Anything more than trace ketones should be considered an emergency situation.

As an example of resistance, my boy was not well controlled on 37u of humulin n. Switched him to levemir insulin which is four times as potent as NPH. He was at 10u (equiv. of 40u NPH) and still not well controlled. Then we discovered he had high lipids (cholesterol and fasting triglycerides), pancreatitis and that he was hypothyroid. Once we started his thyroid meds his insulin needs dropped the equiv. of 16u in a five day span. A couple of weeks later they dropped the equiv. of another four units.

I read your post on the cushings forum. Did the vet test for pancreatitis via SPEC cPL blood draw? What makes the vet think there may be something else going on related to hypothyroidism? (you typed hyper but most dogs are hyPO thyroid) - cats tend to be hyPEr thyroid.

There have been some dogs on here who've experienced hind end weakness with diabetes. I believe hypothyroidism can also cause joint pain and muscle mass loss - which could show as hind end weakness as well. Like the folks on the cushings forum said, there are a lot of symptoms among diabetes, cushings and hypothyroidism that all overlap. Diabetes is pretty easy to diagnose. Hypothyroidism, in the face of diabetes or any other disease, will need a full thyroid panel run to diagnose. A T4 thyroid test alone can be skewed as diabetes can cause the T4 value to be low. So if your vet tests for hypothyroidism - make sure a full thyroid panel is being run. Cushings is difficult to diagnose by itself. When we considered it on Decker's list of potential problems, we were told to start with the UCCR - urine test, which happened to rule it out for Decker. Should the UCCR come back positive, it would not confirm cushings, it would only warrant additional testing for it. The ACTH (vs. LDDS) would be the next cushings test for a diabetic dog.

Welcome to the forum! Wishing you the best in this new journey of yours!

Holli

[Auddog]

Re: Husky owner with diabetes questions

Hi there,
I just wanted to add our welcome to you and your pup.
You've found a wealth of information between us and the cushings forum folks I don't have much to add to the suggestions you've already received, but we'd love to hear more about your girl:

Name?
Age?
Weight?

Just as others have said, cataracts seems to be a dog by dog basis. Some get them, some don't, and some will even seem to develop them overnight. Bazzle has developed cataracts very slowly over the past year that he's been dealing with diabetes, and I still think he can see a little bit. I know surgery is an option, but because of the problems Bazz has coming out of anesthesia and the cost we decided not to do it.

I know this seems overwhelming, but I'm sure you'll get the hang of it all soon enough. We're all here to help you through it all, and again welcome to the forum

Audrey & Bazzle

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: Husky owner with diabetes questions

Hi Cal

Just wanted to add to my previous post regarding the low dose of insulin.

A 70 pound dog starting dose in lbs would be at most 17 units.

Do you have a recent curve from the vet that you could post?

Maybe ask your vet why 8 iu. A curve will show how much insulin he needs

How is he feeling?

[Monsters Momma]

Re: Husky owner with diabetes questions

Hi and welcome!

It seems my other friends here already know the answer to this, but what kind of insulin are you using? That can make a big differeNce on the starting dose as well.

Other than that, I'll tell you that we started out on a 'diabetic' food, got Vinny pretty much regulated, then figured out he had lost too much weight. We changed his food and have since seen some changes in his energy level and weight and his coat looks better. You will hear this over and over...every dog is different and you have to do what works for your dog. AND it might take awhile to figure out what that is.

This diabetes thing takes a lot of patience and sometimes a lot of ingenuity.
Hang in there!
Mel

[sibhus]

Re: Husky owner with diabetes questions

Thanks all for the responses.

Im using Humilin N for now and was told to administer 8 units 2x a day but to develop a Blood Glucose profile over 7 days which would then be tweaked by my vet. She said since her glucose was at 365 it wasnt as bad as some other cases.

So far Sierra (10 year old husky weighing 70 lbs) has stopped urinating, reduced water consumption and improved rear end lameness but she is acting a bit dull. Im not sure if its due to the insulin.

However, i was told she may have pancreatitis as her pancrease was slightly enlarged on the ultrasound. The dr prescribed Hills ID to be fed in small amounts for a few days. So far she is pottying and urinating normally, no vomiting and no diarrhea.

I was curious as she only eats once a day, do you guys recommend insulin just once a day and also do i really need to change to two feedings, this will obviously require a new BG profile to determine insulin amounts.

Also i was curious what you guys think of changing to a raw chicken diet along with say a can of Hills ID.

Thanks again, Cal

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: Husky owner with diabetes questions

Hi Cal

I feed my Riliey twice a day followed by his insulin right after he eats. Works for us. The food and insulin work together supporting his immune system and regulating his diabetes.

So glad Sierra is doing better.

The 8 units is a low dose for a 70 pound dog to start.

I would stick with the same food as it is working with the insulin, you can changed foods later if you want.

Think you, ll see her getting more energy on 2 meals a day followed by injections, she wont feel sooo dull..

I, d ask your vet why such a low dose if insulin to start with?

Did you have a curve done on Sierra? Thats testing her blood glucose for 12 hours testing every 2 hours. This will help adjusting her insulin dose.

[amydunn19]

Re: Husky owner with diabetes questions

Two meals a day typically balances the best with two injections a day. Humulin N typically only has a duration of about 12 hours, thus the two injections a day. It works with food to balance. When you give two shots a day and one meal, it might be a tad risky that there is no food on board for that second injection. Keep in mind, I say "typical" and that doesn't mean that it is required. A couple of members here whose dogs have issues give one meal a day but I believe that they do give some snacks or mini-meals as a supplement.

Is there a reason for one meal a day? I would be quite interested to see the curve your dog has. I would think you really would need a 24 hour curve to see the impact of the 12 hour period with the food and the 12 hour period without the food. Some drastically different things could be going on with highs and lows and your goal should be to get the curve as flat as possible during the entire day and night.

Also, there is a blood test that will confirm pancreatitis - the Spec cPL. Knowing for certain whether your dog has pancreatitis is important because it can be deadly. It might be worth doing.

[jesse girl]

Re: Husky owner with diabetes questions

i would be curious to see a curve on your pup and it may have to cover a 24 hour period on one shot one meal . if blood sugar is level and stable its possible it could work

there is maybe a handful of dogs that have one shot a day but thats with 2 meals which in my opinion why feed twice with one shot but it works for them

my jesse is on one meal and a snack with 3 shots a day so sometimes you have to be creative especially for a dog that is difficult to regulate

i would have been ecstatic if jesse just needed one meal and one shot and did try to see if it would work she actually could get to 18 hours with respectable numbers close but no cigar the last 6 hours she raised quite dramatically

so in theory its possible especially if a dog is still producing some insulin which is possible with your pup showing good improvement on a low dose of insulin and being only one shot .

generally a meal and a shot every 12 hours is where most begin there are some that may need to go outside the box like jesse had to

home testing will help to facilitate the regulation process and keep your pup safe

[k9diabetes]

Re: Husky owner with diabetes questions

I was curious as she only eats once a day, do you guys recommend insulin just once a day and also do i really need to change to two feedings, this will obviously require a new BG profile to determine insulin amounts.

Generally, a dose of insulin is based on being given with a meal. So if you are going to feed only once a day, the insulin injection with food would be quite a few more units than the insulin injection when no food is given.

Usually a dog can manage anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 of a with-food dose of insulin given without any food.

So if 8 units was the right dose WITH a meal, a place to start trying to give insulin without a meal would be about 2 units.

. . . . .

Either way, there's some experimenting that has to be done.

Also, you want to be sure to change only one thing at a time. So you work either on the insulin dose or on the diet but not both simultaneously if you can avoid it.

Once you have the insulin dose sorted it out, it should vary only slightly with a change in the content of the diet and perhaps a bit more if you change the number of calories given.

A diet heavy in protein does not always work well for diabetic dogs. Depends on how fast they absorb and use up their insulin. If they use the insulin fast and digest a high protein diet slowly, they can get poorly matched sugar and insulin. Diabetic dogs consequently sometimes actually really need a carbohydrate as a part of their meals.

Natalie

[sibhus]

dog food and exercise questions

Currently im feeding Hills ID and cooked chicken to my 10yr old diabetic husky as she had a bout of pancreatitis a month back which resulted in in her diabetes. This combo will get pricey in the long run and i would like to start weening her onto a suitable dry food and was wondering what some of you recommend? So far ive seen EVO weight management. I know Hills has WD but ive read conflicting stories about it. So am open to suggestions? prior to my dogs diabetes i was giving her blue buffalo adult chicken but she has diarrhea from it, so i have given up on that brand.

The other thing is, i tend to feed my dog around 7pm and take her for a 25 minute walk and then come back to giver her insulin. She does not eat in the mornings, but I noticed a huge rise (526) after a walk, is this normal? I thought exercise generally reduces BG levels?

Thanks Kal

[jesse girl]

Re: dog food and exercise questions

hi and welcome

its not unusual to see a rise after a walk if insulin is fading or non existent and it can be dramatic . so your walking wright before insulin is given which can be the weakest time for many pups . i did see the same thing for jesse but over time she has done much better with walks and blood sugar . i guess her body adapted over time .

many on the forum feed there pups many different combinations and the funny thing most work . my jesse is ion a partially raw diet . top priority is if the dog will eat everyday and hopefully for a long time .

[Rubytuesday]

Re: dog food and exercise questions

Sorry I don't have any experience with pancreatitis and appropriate diets, but many folks here deal with it and will offer their experience.

The reason you are seeing the huge food rise is because you have given food with no insulin to balance it for the first half hour. If you are giving NPH insulin it takes a little bit of time to get going. Most of us inject at feeding time as long as we are sure that our dogs will eat and not vomit.

You are right that exercise can help lower bgs, but it seems to be a dog dependant thing. If the insulin is waning though, as yours would be at walk time, then the exercise may cause bgs to rise instead. You'll just need to see how your dog reacts to it and many other things as you will get almost as many different trends as you will diabetic dogs.

But most importantly, you say you are feeding once a day? Are you giving insulin twice a day? On this forum you will find many different approaches, but feeding once a day and injecting once a day isn't a typical approach and could lead to a lot of problems.

Now this is coming from a person who did feed once a day, but I had a lot of experience. I am not saying it can't be done, but the caregiver needs to have a fair amount of knowledge to safely do it that way.

Can you tell us some more about your dog:
-weight
-type of insulin
-dose

Tara