Diabetes in Dogs: The k9diabetes.com Forum

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-   -   Jesse girl (http://k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2001)

jesse girl 07-08-2010 05:49 PM

Jesse girl
 
Hi my doggie has been diagnosed diabetic since easter she also had pacreatitis . She is a very sweet girl and doing pretty good . we've finally got her numbers in better range she is on nph insulin the walmart brand . I home test with walgreens true track pretty accurate under 200 and can be alittle incosistent above that I do have a ultra mini to double check if number doesnt seem to be wright her are some numbers and the pattern stay cosistant

5:15am 143
6:00am fed blue buffalo weight control
7:00am 5u shot go for half hour rabbit run
8:35am 96
8:53am 119
9:30am 94
10:00am 183
12:00pm 265
1:00pm 229
3:30pm 254
4:20pm 194
5:30pm 123
6:00pm 109 fed cup b weight control usually drop flattens at this point

these numbers are far better than where she was at 300 and 400 so ime happy but when your in higher numbers it is less fearful even though its not good for her . going for walks and playing is not a problem and also going to work her food seems to be starting to kick out sugar at about 2 hours and 45 minutes and peaks at 6 hours and dies at 4:00 pm give or take so I have tried to time her shot by this with much better success than in the past thinking the big drops and rise were rebound but appears to be insulin wasnt working with food my problem is to try to flatten this out especially the spike at 10 am and drop at 4:00 pm I have eliminated that spike before with 5.5 units but got to low at the end of the cycle . It maybe just a food thing but ive tried other foods with bascically same result ho-made with lean beef heart fish egg brown rice and egg and bb wilderness mostly protein . There maybe a food out there that will work great but I dont have esp but wish I did or maybe this is the way it is and maybe there can be some tweaks to get her better maybe feed her even earlier but we are maxed out on insulin amount with this food I am getting worn out and jesse is a dogie pin cushion but it has got me and her to a better place any help would be appreciated

Joan 07-09-2010 07:47 AM

Re: any thoughts in improving these numbers
 
Have been doing a lot of thinking about your dog overnight. I can completely sympathize with your "pin cushion" analogy. My pug was exactly the same, I think when she was first diagnosed, I tested her on average 15 times per day. she was also erratic to begin with, and took a lot of innovation to keep her in good numbers. You have done well to try figuring out when the food is utilized as opposed to the insulin absorption rate. The first several months after diagnosis, dogs are all over the place, and you do what you need to do to keep them at reasonable levels. However, as they go along, it is best IF it is possible to get them back to more normal insulin/food routines. That is because the insulin actually does work best when it works together with the food. My opinon only, after going through where you are for nearly a year, before getting my dog level.

I think the problem can be compounded by waiting too long to give the insulin after food. IF the insulin is lasting 12 hrs., then it is still in her system when you are feeding the next meal, and may help that drop you are getting. As you wait longer and longer to give the shot, the overlap with the next meal becomes more and more pronounced. It is highly unusual, not unheard of, for a dog to digest their food so slowly that it does not raise the bg for several hours. Have you tried digestive enzymes?
I tried them with my pug, and it increased her digestion rate so much I couldn't continue, but in your dog it may just be the trick you need.

If it were my dog, and having gone through this innovation/exploration/learning process myself, I would lower her dose slightly, and try once again to feed and give insulin within 1/2 hr of the food. If it appears you get too much drop after the meal, you could try some digestive enzymes. Or you can add some quicker carbs such as white bread. I know that you have tried some of these things before, but the really annoying thing about newly diagnosed diabetics is that they change! What did not work last month, may indeed work now.

I agree with you that your numbrs are a bit low. There just is not enough wiggle room for an unexpected drop. Esp if you are working and not home. I am lucky enough to be home 24/7.

These are just my opinions on the subject, and you will find lots of different ones, as the truth of the matter is, every dog is a unique case. But looking back at my struggles for so long, and how easy it all is now, I think i would have got here more easily and quickly, if I had realized that in the beginning, one theory you have on how your dog is reacting via bg readings, can be blown to bits the following week. So you keep trying, but heading back towards a more "normal" pattern, is a good way to keep from getting too far from the way insulin is designed to work.

Hugs Joan

jesse girl 07-09-2010 08:36 AM

Re: any thoughts in improving these numbers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan (Post 31436)
Have been doing a lot of thinking about your dog overnight. I can completely sympathize with your "pin cushion" analogy. My pug was exactly the same, I think when she was first diagnosed, I tested her on average 15 times per day. she was also erratic to begin with, and took a lot of innovation to keep her in good numbers. You have done well to try figuring out when the food is utilized as opposed to the insulin absorption rate. The first several months after diagnosis, dogs are all over the place, and you do what you need to do to keep them at reasonable levels. However, as they go along, it is best IF it is possible to get them back to more normal insulin/food routines. That is because the insulin actually does work best when it works together with the food. My opinon only, after going through where you are for nearly a year, before getting my dog level.

I think the problem can be compounded by waiting too long to give the insulin after food. IF the insulin is lasting 12 hrs., then it is still in her system when you are feeding the next meal, and may help that drop you are getting. As you wait longer and longer to give the shot, the overlap with the next meal becomes more and more pronounced. It is highly unusual, not unheard of, for a dog to digest their food so slowly that it does not raise the bg for several hours. Have you tried digestive enzymes?
I tried them with my pug, and it increased her digestion rate so much I couldn't continue, but in your dog it may just be the trick you need.

If it were my dog, and having gone through this innovation/exploration/learning process myself, I would lower her dose slightly, and try once again to feed and give insulin within 1/2 hr of the food. If it appears you get too much drop after the meal, you could try some digestive enzymes. Or you can add some quicker carbs such as white bread. I know that you have tried some of these things before, but the really annoying thing about newly diagnosed diabetics is that they change! What did not work last month, may indeed work now.

I agree with you that your numbrs are a bit low. There just is not enough wiggle room for an unexpected drop. Esp if you are working and not home. I am lucky enough to be home 24/7.

These are just my opinions on the subject, and you will find lots of different ones, as the truth of the matter is, every dog is a unique case. But looking back at my struggles for so long, and how easy it all is now, I think i would have got here more easily and quickly, if I had realized that in the beginning, one theory you have on how your dog is reacting via bg readings, can be blown to bits the following week. So you keep trying, but heading back towards a more "normal" pattern, is a good way to keep from getting too far from the way insulin is designed to work.

Hugs Joan

Thanks very much joan I thought of the same thing some digestive enzymes she did have a pancreatitis and that could have disturbed the process of digestion but her poops are good she is getting healthier every day and more active which leads to another problem she drops significantly with exercise she is just so sensitive to the insulin but your probably wright as time goes on she may develop to more of a normal way do you have any recommendations on those digestive enzymes thanks

jesse girl 07-09-2010 09:25 AM

Re: any thoughts in improving these numbers
 
the problem for trying the lower dose at about mealtime it still will drive he numbers down pretty hard and when the food kicks in we are off to the raises she is just so sensitive to the insulin and her digestion takes such a long time to get sugar in her system today I gave her food 15 minutes earlier and still not quite there Ime not sure if this is a very special case or it does happen once in a while. Its definitely better then where she was. Ill keep experimenting cant hurt to go another 15 minutes there are some good things she will be higher when ime gone and lower when ime home.

Joan 07-09-2010 09:59 AM

Re: any thoughts in improving these numbers
 
these are some digestive enzymes I have used. However since I no longer use them on my diabetic pug, but on some of the others, there are probably others here who can direct you better.

http://www.natural-dog-health-remedi...-for-dogs.html

BTW, I am wondering what a rabbit run is? If we are talking about strenuous exercise, you might try, on the days you are not working, to give that exercise at her high times, as opposed to her lows, and see if it is the exercise making the drop. I know it may not be possible while you work, but if you find if its the rabbit run, then adjusting the food/insulin is not going to make as much difference as adjusting the timing of the exercise when possible.

jesse girl 07-09-2010 10:22 AM

Re: any thoughts in improving these numbers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan (Post 31444)
these are some digestive enzymes I have used. However since I no longer use them on my diabetic pug, but on some of the others, there are probably others here who can direct you better.

http://www.natural-dog-health-remedi...-for-dogs.html

BTW, I am wondering what a rabbit run is? If we are talking about strenuous exercise, you might try, on the days you are not working, to give that exercise at her high times, as opposed to her lows, and see if it is the exercise making the drop. I know it may not be possible while you work, but if you find if its the rabbit run, then adjusting the food/insulin is not going to make as much difference as adjusting the timing of the exercise when possible.

yeah the rabbit run is mostly smelling sometimes she will find one and chase it its amazing its more than an hour and a half after she eats and no influence of food at that time you would think no problem but yes there is a problem this is what she enjoys most in life and ive tried to structure the program so she can have some fun she was at 200 when we left when we came back she was 50 Ide like to do latter times but its very hot and work is a problem with that but maybe ill try a spoon full of sugar before the run and shorten the run and see her number before and after like I said the 5.5 dose will keep her within 20 points all day but we are starting at a low level already so she is at about a 100 20 points up or down through the day had to pump her with sugar to pick her up no wiggle room must test alot at least she is normal for a day . gave her a pancake over an hour ago and see no signs of that in he numbers she must be an alien dog or something like that

Joan 07-09-2010 10:54 AM

Re: any thoughts in improving these numbers
 
Exactly how long since she was diagnosed, this past Easter, April? What is her weight, I apologize if you have already given this info someplace, just dont see it here.
What is the lowest reading or group of readings you have ever found?
I am out for several hrs now, but will check back as soon as I return.

jesse girl 07-09-2010 11:35 AM

Re: any thoughts in improving these numbers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan (Post 31446)
Exactly how long since she was diagnosed, this past Easter, April? What is her weight, I apologize if you have already given this info someplace, just dont see it here.
What is the lowest reading or group of readings you have ever found?
I am out for several hrs now, but will check back as soon as I return.

shes about 26 pounds actually very healthy better than years ago yes Easter this year diagnosed. very low on readings but once again insulin got ahead of sugar . the pancake with sryup finally kicked almost 2 hours shes at 140. she used to be a free eater before this and ate small amounts trough the day now she is eating 2 big meals a day which is one cup of blue weight control twice a day they recommend 1.5 cups a day and she is getting 2 she was pretty thin so i gave her a little extra and she is looking pretty good so maybe ill cut her back a little maybe having that much food in the belly makes a difference or maybe the sugar is going someplace else to be stored she seems to poop twice a day maybe a handful if thats not to descriptive for you and looks good as far as poop goes so everything seems to be working but why so late on the blood sugar looked online cant find anything I think I can regulate her even if it is taking this long its just the timing must be there and i may have to give her a boost at the end . that can be done with my schedule.

peggy0 07-09-2010 05:35 PM

Re: any thoughts in improving these numbers
 
These numbers are very good. If this curve is representative then she's in good shape. Exercise and heat will drop her BGs so you need to be careful there. You should give her a carb treat prior to your run so she doesn't drop too low. Buffalo blue weight control vs . the wilderness seems to flatten the curve nicely. You may have to give her a bit more insulin, but it may be flatter if you'd like to try a different diet.

k9diabetes 07-09-2010 09:23 PM

Re: any thoughts in improving these numbers
 
I probably would stick with what you have. It's a really really nice curve and the foray into 200s is brief and not very high. Congratulations!! :)

And I don't think her readings are too low either. There's plenty of room for variation before she gets near low blood sugar.

It's an unusual time for a spike! Seems like she must be taking a while to digest some of her food. So I think the digestive enzymes would be worth a try.

But if this is as good as it gets, this is lovely.

I agree that you will have to watch the exercise as potentially dropping her further on an extra exciting day or hot day. A little carby snack beforehand would help ensure she doesn't go too low.

Natalie

jesse girl 07-10-2010 10:37 AM

Re: any thoughts in improving these numbers
 
Thanks for the reply's it definitely gives me more confidence I gave her a little more insulin and change her food time to 2 hours from shot it did eliminate the spike and kept her pretty flat but in the low range I gave her a 1 quarter cup of frozen beef heart at shot time to maybe eliminate that drop at the end of her cycle and be able to take for a walk she ended up in the mid 200s at 6:00 am from 174 at 4:00 am not sure if that was a fluke but will try again with a little less beef heart .good walking numbers went for an hour and came back at 146 . Ime going to drop her insulin down a bit and move her shot time 15 minutes forward it seems her shot time is starting a little earlier than the 1.5 hours that I believed it started working maybe that long walk before her shot can start things a little faster so that will be 2 hours and 15 minutes between shot and food pretty amazing but then again by lowering her dose I may not need to adjust her time I guess I can flip a coin . actually this isn't a bad thing if she threw up or her numbers fluctuated I can adjust her shot I dont no if she will remain this way or get to a more normal pattern we will work with what we got and she seems happy and healthy I probably wont add any digestive enzymes now it taken a while to get this point . thinking the whole time it was rebound and it was not just poor interaction between food and insulin . I am sure jesse isnt the only one like this out there so if you are seeing the same pattern your dog may be in the same situation. Its not to difficult to figure out. thanks every one

jesse girl 07-11-2010 09:55 AM

why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
Well things are getting pretty strange we were at 5.5 units twice a day and she started going low so I cut the dose by half a unit to 5 same result same numbers going straight down. 4 hours after her meal 2 hours after her shot so I cut her dose to 4 units same result same number getting into the 70s and I must intervene with some syrup. she was 269 fasting numbers gave pancake night before went for 45 minute walk and came back gave her shot and she was 146 left to go for a drive came back an hour later and 149 this is 3 hours after her meal with no interaction of insulin yet .She has gotten extremely healthier in the last couple weeks is her body producing insulin sporadically . she used to get seizures once and awhile and i attributed it to epilepsy but after researching a bit some hunting dogs go hypoglycemic is a decease in hunting dogs and my doggie is a beagle since she has been diabetic she hasnt had anymore seizures maybe related I dont know. Say if you gave yourself insulin and you did not need it would you go straight down or would your body compensate . ive given he quite a bit of syrup its definitely to much insulin. The predominant way of thinking if a doggie is diabetic thats it the pancreas doesnt produce any insulin I only heard one example of this not being true is when a dog has a pancreatitis sometimes on rare occasions the pancreas is jarred back into producing insulin my dog did have pancreatitis I guess ill drop her a hole unit to 3 sleep is becoming a premium I know this is a unusual case if anyone has seen something similar id appreciate the advise

CraigM 07-11-2010 11:16 AM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
Any other changes? Different food, or quantity? Reduced weight?

jesse girl 07-11-2010 11:52 AM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CraigM (Post 31557)
Any other changes? Different food, or quantity? Reduced weight?

everything the same gave her half a waffle finally kicked in after 1.5 hour shes up to 149 in the past this sugar and food intervention would blow her up when she was first diagnosed the vet said she did not seem to be a true diabetic he never explained what he meant. Its really strange to drop her dose so much with same numbers on the downside giving sugar when she drops below 100 she go up 30 p0int and then come back down after a half hour ime thinking of cutting her dose to 3 unit maybe 2.5 why do some dogs seem to need so little insulin and some dont I know some can be resistant but such small amounts with all that food you would think there is some production of insulin going on and if so I think this makes things more complicated because how would you dose for that I give her shot 2.5 hours after her meal because her numbers stay low and it seems like the food isnt kicking in for 3.5 hours or maybe there is insulin working the whole time secreted from her body. she has been very difficult to regulate and just lately we have been getting better numbers. It is definitely to much insulin this we know why is the question. This is probably why its been so difficult. I have used r insulin in the past when she had high numbers you could gve her a half a unit or less she would drop 200 points and stay flat at that number four hours.

Patty 07-11-2010 06:22 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
I merged your threads together so we can keep all of Jesse's information in one place. Makes it easier to go back and look at her history.

I wonder if Jesse is honeymooning. This can happen if not all of the beta cells have been destroyed yet. Often it won't last. But for a time earlier in diagnosis the body can start producing insulin on its own and thus need less injected insulin.

It's also possible to have overlap of insulin build up and it can take a few days on a significantly lower dose to rid the body of the excess insulin.

I know Joan had recommended the digestive enzymes as a help in getting the food into Jesse's system faster as well in the first few hours. I would consider trying this.

Quote:

Say if you gave yourself insulin and you did not need it would you go straight down or would your body compensate
Your body systems would try to compensate but injecting insulin into a nondiabetic is a life threatening situation. The overdose of insulin would pull all of the glucose from the bloodstream starving the cells/brain and could result in seizures and coma or cell death. Which is why hypoglycemia is so dangerous.

See if you can find a dose that avoids any and all lows and stick with that for a couple of days to see what kind of curve you then get.

Keep us posted,
Patty

Joan 07-11-2010 07:36 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
If you think Jesse is doing well with less and less insulin, then it is quite possible she is still actually producing some insulin. As Patty said, it can be difficult to distinguish from a bit of an overdose, for a few days. If you keep decreasing the insulin, and her numbers are good, then I would try small frequent meals with no insulin and see if she can handle that without insulin for the time being. If she gets too high and wont come down on her own, then you will know she definitely needs insulin, just a matter of how much.

My pugs did this for several months, and you just have to be reactive, and it is difficult, and you wont be getting many good nights sleep. But in my opinion, by decreasing the insulin, and monitoring as you go, is the only way to tell for sure.

You are doing well, and Jesse is lucky to have you.

jesse girl 07-11-2010 09:42 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
joan and patty great advise shes dropping pretty good on 2units not as bad as 4 but she did start the cycle a little hire its 4.5 hours after she ate sugar must be getting into her system you would think but I dont see any interaction with food at this dose but who knows for sure jesse not talking the thing I noticed shes been going down early . it maybe an hour or less when the shot was given it used to be 1.5 hours give or take or maybe her body may be producing and knocking it down before the shot . shes at 140 from 240 1.5 hours ago I dont think I slept much this week . I lowered the dose alot no problem Ill be able to sleep and then check her numbers and say oh well who needs sleep.

jesse girl 07-11-2010 09:54 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
Ive seen her fist rise after her shot and food 4.5 hours after eating she went from 140 to 154 Ime not sure if the food will overwhelm this dose we shall see but sleep may be a possibility. It just maybe a slow process for sugar to get into the system she poops on a regular basis so every thing is working so we will see how it ends up.

Joan 07-12-2010 06:14 AM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
Those numbers are so interesting, a rise of 14 is negligible. Someday when you have time you should test yourself 4 or 5 times throughout the day, and you will find more variance than that in a non-diabetic.

Hope you are able to sleep, been there, done that.

Hugs Joan

jesse girl 07-12-2010 08:55 AM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
thanks joan for your response It gets more interesting but I have to go to work my kids will keep an eye on her today well keep you in suspense for awhile have a great day

jesse girl 07-12-2010 06:50 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
july 12 numbers 2 units


3.30 am 196
5.10 am 156
fed at 5.00
6.30 am 396 meter can be off quite a bit at these levels sugar release from her body possible dont believe it is food goes down quick and doesnt come back
went for hour run
shot 7.15 am
8.12 146
8.30 124
9.00 am 106
9.30 am 126 It appears food enters the equation at this point
5.30 pm 199 she may have dropped from higher numbers
600 pm 384 we dont know what this is it happened at the same time in thw am well I call it a gift we can have lots of exercise and fun The last week we couldn't do much with these low numbers she seem to cut it down with her energy
good hard run for half hour 6.40 319



as you can see the insulin is ahead of the food for a bit and we do have a blow up within a half hour maybe something in the food digested early I dont think so or its hormonal secreted from he body its all theory and speculation i may rais a tad and holed off on the shot till 730

k9diabetes 07-12-2010 09:25 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
That rise in the morning is undoubtedly a result of not giving insulin.

Even once it's injected, the insulin takes a while to be absorbed and put to use. In some dogs it can take an hour or more. An hour and a half is plenty of time for food to be converted to glucose.

So in Jesse's case she needs that injection earlier, not later.

Natalie

jesse girl 07-12-2010 11:01 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
I gave her shot 2.5 hours after her food tonight she went from 300 to 100 from 9 pm to 10 pm then it moved up to 128 at 10:30 I gave it to her earlier this drop would start earlier before this food got going I don't believe this is food I see it as hormonal she is dropping at the end of the cycle and maybe her body is kicking in this it has happened the last 2 days not before what ever it is it is not continuous its one big lump of glucose it doesnt go any higher exercise can remove alot of it and with insulin even a half unit that 300 will be 50 in a half hour if given with food and it is not pretty Ive done alot of testing and the earlier i go the worse it is . Ime not sure whats going on she defiantly acts like a mountain she drops pretty good until that 4.5 hour mark where she rise not hard but steady to me that shows true interaction of the food which is overwhelming the insulin at that time. after about 9 hours after food the insulin takes the lead and she drops the last 3hours and the that rise is within 15 minute she will be 199 and 15 minutes she will be at at 384 she can exercise and loose 100 of those points and it doesnt come back I would think food is continuous once it starts until its done ime not sure what is happening she does have long ranges with good numbers but these drops are not good she hardly is getting any insulin we were at 5 units a week ago and holding and now ime at 2.5 thats a big drop in a short time maybe an unusual case I dont know but will keep working on it thanks for your advice natalie

AlisonandMia 07-12-2010 11:19 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
Is Jesse spayed?

Alison

jesse girl 07-13-2010 06:07 AM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
she had her uterus removed when she was diagnosed with diabetes and pancreatitis because they said she had an infection and it needed to be operated on I think that will cover that

When I went To 2.5 unit she went down pretty fast last night.

I will go back to 2 shes high right now and I will go with natalies suggestion and give her shot and food at same time.

It still might be rebound Ime not sure with higher doses can the insulin overwhelm rebound and not let it dramatically climb and keep her numbers low but as time goes by the stored glucose in her system becomes depleted and this dose becomes way to much as far as the amount of units I give her.

I went to five and that worked for a couple days then she went low then 4.5 went low then 4 went to low then two not low but still could drop pretty good went back up to 2.5 dropped pretty fast 4 hours after food and then blew up from 98 to the 300s.

It may be one of 2 things rebound and giving her to much insulin which is already very small amounts poor interaction of food and insulin maybe some how she is producing some insulin of her own sporadically and this could make any dose high at times I dont even know if this is possible or if anybody has any other ideas on what may be going on i would appreciate it has anyone tried the digestive enzymes and how did it affect digestion? Did it stay constant?

She was good for a short time and I thought we had a plan but we are back to square one but still determined to find something that works could the insulin be to hard for her system Is there something more gentle maybe that was vetsulin.

k9diabetes 07-13-2010 01:16 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
Did they remove the ovaries?

Natalie

k9diabetes 07-13-2010 01:27 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
Given how flat the blood sugar stayed after the spike, I tend not to think rebound.

Once you try giving food and insulin together, let's look at the numbers and see if maybe the diet needs a bit of tweaking. You can add some carbs to absorb a big kick from insulin, for example.

But before suggesting any other changes I would want to see whether food and shot together eliminates the spike or tames it and doesn't cause problems somewhere else.

If she still has ovaries, then she could be having fluctuations related to her hormones. Dogs sometimes develop a type of diabetes where they are need significantly less or even no insulin in between heat cycles. Connie and Gypsy here are a good example. Once Gypsy was spayed, she was no longer diabetic. Sometimes they aren't diabetic at all and sometimes they are still diabetic after spaying. Before spaying it's a wild rollercoaster of high and low blood sugar as it vacillates with hormone levels.

So very important to know if they took the ovaries too.

Natalie

jesse girl 07-13-2010 04:01 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
here are jesses numbers for this morning at 1.5 units shot and insulin given at same time as food

4:19 am 399
5:30 am 408
7:00 am 299 after hour walk 3/4 cup bb weight control and 1.5 u of insulin
8:20 am 369 shot hasnt kicked in yet
9:00 am 299 shot has kicked in
9:30 am 255
10:00 am 293
5:00 pm 362

It seems to be the same story 3 hours after the shot she gets that steep rise I dont think it makes any difference when I feed her its that 3 hours after shot big move down and up Ime starting to believe with you that the sugar is being dumped by her body whether it is rebound hormonal or she just doesnt like being low but where is the food impact is just going to the storage area for another dump as you can see from my other numbers the spike was there but smaller because of the larger dose can higher doses lower the efect of the body releasing blood sugar we no the problem its seems she just wants to be higher when she drops it seems to be hard on her gets tired I think you said something about getting used to being high and the body gets nervous about being in those low numbers but she has been flat or around the same number for hours and we still get that spike the only time she didnt get that spike was with more insulin but that did not work because she kept droping all day and intervention kept it at bay but it took alot of sugar I have used r insulin in the past during high times it actully kept her flat for hours and her numbers barely budge but it only took 1/2 a unit and sometimes less she would go from the 300s to 150s and stay there for hours this would be after the spike and the rest of the afternoon she would be as flat as a pancake so you can see the spike can be eliminated with more insulin or r insulin the latter wont work unless as you say carb her up but ime still not sure about her digestion time by looking at these numbers i see no influence of food let me know what you think natalie I appreciate your service and help

jesse girl 07-13-2010 04:23 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
I think ill give her 1 unit and see what happens maybe food at 6 and shot at 7 that gave her the best results but at 4 to 5 units but like I said it may be reacting to that possible dump of sugar and more insulin can hang with it and when it doesnt happen she just goes to low because there isnt enough sugar to act on. this all started after being in heat in march so there may be a hormonal aspect i will call the emergency vet to see if they removed her ovaries you would think so

Patty 07-13-2010 07:44 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jesse girl (Post 31690)
here are jesses numbers for this morning at 1.5 units shot and insulin given at same time as food

4:19 am 399
5:30 am 408

7:00 am 299 after hour walk 3/4 cup bb weight control and 1.5 u of insulin
8:20 am 369 shot hasnt kicked in yet
9:00 am 299 shot has kicked in
9:30 am 255
10:00 am 293
5:00 pm 362

It seems to be the same story 3 hours after the shot. She gets that steep rise. I dont think it makes any difference when I feed her. Its that 3 hours after shot, big move down and up.

I'm starting to believe with you that the sugar is being dumped by her body, whether it is rebound, hormonal, or she just doesnt like being low. But where is the food impact is just going to the storage area for another dump. As you can see from my other numbers the spike was there but smaller because of the larger dose.

Quote:

july 12 numbers 2 units
3.30 am 196
fed at 5.00
5.10 am 156
6.30 am 396 went for hour run
shot 7.15 am
8.12 146
8.30 124
9.00 am 106
9.30 am 126 It appears food enters the equation at this point
5.30 pm 199 she may have dropped from higher numbers
600 pm 384 good hard run for half hour
6.40 319
Can higher doses lower the effect of the body releasing blood sugar? We no the problem. It seems she just wants to be higher. When she drops it seems to be hard on her gets tired. I think you said something about getting used to being high and the body gets nervous about being in those low numbers, but she has been flat or around the same number for hours and we still get that spike.

The only time she didnt get that spike was with more insulin. But that did not work because she kept droping all day and intervention kept it at bay. But it took alot of sugar.

I have used R insulin in the past during high times. It actully kept her flat for hours and her numbers barely budge. But it only took 1/2 a unit and sometimes less. She would go from the 300s to 150s and stay there for hours this would be after the spike and the rest of the afternoon she would be as flat as a pancake.

So you can see the spike can be eliminated with more insulin or R insulin. The latter wont work unless as you say carb her up. But I'm still not sure about her digestion time. By looking at these numbers i see no influence of food. Let me know what you think natalie. I appreciate your service and help

I combined some information as it's easier for me to read through and see the whole picture.

I'd suggest as Natalie did, staying with the food/insulin at the same time for at least 3-4 days to see a true picture of how they are working together. Keeping all things (exercise, etc) as consistent as possible. That will give the body time to adjust to the new routine and whatever residual insulin is working in the background at injection times.

Then I'd do another curve and decide what tweaking needs to be done, whether it's adding enzymes, splitting her meals a bit differently, or adding a carb source.

You also asked about digestive enzymes:
Quote:

i would appreciate it has anyone tried the digestive enzymes and how did it affect digestion? Did it stay constant?
I know of several people who have used Viokase or Aunt Jeni's Enhance with good results. The enzymes should aid in digesting her food so the glucose is available quicker.

Look forward to learning if her ovaries where removed as well!
Patty

jesse girl 07-13-2010 09:16 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
thanks for the information patty the standard way has had no success she doesnt understand the word routine and normal way of doing things shes a great girl work has been slow so i have been able to put alot of time into her and love to do it the spike occurs more so after the shot begins acting and not the food timing it seems when the insulin is working for an hour you can almost set your clock by it and thats when the spike begin the spike in the morning happens at the end of the cycle that just started with less insulin she has had some nice flat times where she didnt move much but it didnt last usually the dose that was working became to much and had to drop and she would be to high It would be nice to just be in the 200s instead of below 100 or 300 an above where is that happy medium it must be out there some where

k9diabetes 07-13-2010 10:28 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
This is potentially an incredibly complicated picture... the possible influences on Jesse's blood sugar include:

- recent hysterectomy and question about whether ovaries were removed with changing hormone levels or hormone-generated high blood sugar.

- fairly recent diagnosis with potential insulin resistance from the high blood sugar that now could be starting to fade so less insulin is required.

- recent pancreatitis that can affect blood sugar in multiple ways - insulin production could return when pancreatitis resolved or inflammation of the pancreas generated a need for more insulin at first and less is needed now.

- honeymooning with recurrent insulin production unrelated to the pancreatitis.

All of these influences could be behind her need for less insulin and are creating whatever her current diabetes status is now.

If you can find a place where you can hold everything constant for four or five days with no low blood sugar and ignore the higher levels, no changes in timing of meals and injections, no changes in food... that will give you the clearest picture of her current food/insulin balance and status of her diabetes. And of course find out whether she could still be producing hormones.

If she could stay at the levels you got at 1.5 units, that would be great as they are in a decent range - not terribly low or terribly high. A good place to settle and wait for a longer-term response.

Natalie

Patty 07-14-2010 08:10 AM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
I'm going to type within your post to share some thoughts I have...
thanks for the information patty.

The standard way has had no success. She doesnt understand the word routine and normal way of doing things. ;) I do understand this. My girl is a bit of an anomaly herself. Natalie's Chris didn't process insulin the same way many dogs do either. And Joan's Bella is on a more unusual shot schedule that works for her. Shes a great girl. Work has been slow so i have been able to put alot of time into her and love to do it. Your dedication to her shows. I realize you've done a lot detective work before having come here so we don't have the same picture in viewing past curves. I did have a friend give me some advice when I was struggling with Ali before. She said when things go haywire, go back to the basics.

That's essentially what I would do. I like Natalie's thought here:
Quote:

If she could stay at the levels you got at 1.5 units, that would be great as they are in a decent range - not terribly low or terribly high. A good place to settle and wait for a longer-term response.
Maybe we could help sort things out, but I really think you need a stable baseline to work from again. There are potentially a lot of variables to consider at this point.

The spike occurs more so after the shot begins acting and not the food timing. It seems when the insulin is working for an hour you can almost set your clock by it, and thats when the spike begin. Every dog responds differently to food and can metabolize insulin differently as well. It may be that cutting back on some of her regular food while adding a different carb or protein source would even things out. Margaret is having do to this with her Lucy to eliminate a food spike. And Tricia's Lily is getting a very different response to the same food Daisy's Noodle is on. But a new baseline should help make these decisions.

The spike in the morning happens at the end of the cycle. That just started with less insulin. Unfortunately less insulin can also mean a shorter duration. So tweaking the food to even things out may be key.

She has had some nice flat times where she didnt move much, but it didnt last. Usually the dose that was working became to much and had to drop and she would be to high. Every time I make a change with my girl, she shows a nice flat even response :D. Then 3 days later shows her true colors and starts dropping or rising on me :rolleyes:.

I have a friend whose dog would do a 3-day wobble. And Kevin was finding that Ozzi did this about every 2 weeks. He'd be fine for a while then have a very low day and have to "reset" things.

A temporary insulin resistance can also do this. The dose today can be too much in a few days. Conversely, a dose today that looks too low can settle in and be just right in several days. Dogs usually have some residual insulin working in the background that can accumulate and overlap the shot times. Over time, the build up can drop numbers a bit.

It would be nice to just be in the 200s instead of below 100 or 300 an above. Where is that happy medium? It must be out there some where Some dogs achieve this so easily it make the rest of us green with envy :D. Others are a lot harder work but I'm hoping we can help! I know it's hard and you've been doing a lot of work for your girl, but personally I'd like to see if you can hold steady on 1.5u with food/insulin timed together and exercise consistent for 4-5 days. See what this "clean slate" so to speak has to offer then post your curve. It may be that despite all your hard work there are things going on at a cellular level (as Natalie mentioned, like honeymooning or hormonal changes from remaining ovaries) that you may have to just "react to" for a time.

Hoping we can help!

Take care :)
Patty

jesse girl 07-14-2010 08:41 AM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
we have been going in the upper 400s havent been there in awhile I do use r insulin at these times with good results I dont want her at these levels Patty i believe you may be right with the lower dose of insulin the staying power is not there maybe this brief honeymoon is over for now it appears the lower dose is not enough I have incorporated some r with n at shot time an hour after her meal the r starts in a 1/2 hour so time start is the same if i just gave some n at food time it takes her into the 200s and gets her out of those high ranges I went 2 units n 1unit r walk up at 5am she was at 238 checksd at 6 am 368 went for walk came back at 7 am 497 the pattern is the same but higher ranges with less insulin natalie your right this is very complicated we've been doing this since march and ive learned alot from you guys and trial and error her shots may have to be customize if given an hour after mealtime it gives me flexability the schedual is great for both of us we will keep workinf at it and thanks I will keep you posted

jesse girl 07-15-2010 02:27 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
july 14 th

5pm 238
6:10 360 fed 3?4 cup bb
6:50am 439 after 45 minute walk used to drop on walks no insulin in system
7am shot 3 unit n 1 unit r
8 am 295
9 am 189
9:30 213
10 am 251 gave 1/2 unit of r
12:10 106
12:46 138
1:31 149
3 pm 172
4 pm 144
5 pm 167
5:53 188
6:15 312

with the r insulin during the ris up just a 1/2 unit will keep her flat all day at the number she settled at just today

8:53 am 355 gave 1/2 of r
9:25 am 319
10 am 221
10:41 226
1:30 225

last 3 hours 5 point fluctuation once the r insulin takes affect and drops her to the low point she stays flat for a long time its beautiful does this give you wonderful people any information this can be done with alot of monitoring and probably have to be home to see where bottom is but it shows it can be done the spike at 10 i still i believe this is sugar from the food at higher doses I could eliminate it but she went to low then she appeared to have a brief honey moon period that may come and go and she seems to need more insulin now the spike in the morning this wasnt here when using more insulin and did not go this high with less insulin in the past. this may be her body released sugar she even rose after her walk quite a bit and thats unusual lately but did happen in the past at the end of her cycle which made walks easier it appears there is no influence of insulin at this time maybe the lower dose is exhausted or her body is dumping sugar at the end of her cycle and overwhelming whats left r insulin works well to get alot of the excess sugar out and working together with n keeps her pretty flat the problem is developing a program out of this to anticipate the rises before they happen can be dangerous so you must let them at least begin and rise to at least 250 to be comfortable as you can see doses are small with great effect work is slow so i can do these thing the future may be different and may be working more I guess with the food thing the only way ime going to see when this will occur is not give her shot test and see the rise and give some r insulin to keep it under control its a little scary but shes high at times anyway and I can bring it back down any thoughts. what would a rise from food look like is it fast and strong is it slow and moderate I need to know if the rise is from the food or just a natural rise with no insulin in her system. ttanks if you have any ideas if you dont thats ok to havent called the em vet about her ovaries I really dont wont to talk to them it wasnt a pleasurable experience.

jesse girl 07-15-2010 06:04 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
patty your over lap suggestion does make sense at the end of her cycle she would drop off pretty good at higher doses these doses weren't given for fairly long and the numbers were pretty good and then things went hay wire and she dropped a lot and no signs of rising without intervention so I lowered the dose dramatically and that worked for a little bit so overlap may have played a part in this as i stayed at the higher dose we had build up and you could see dropping after the 12 hours which carried into the next shot and it took some time to clear that at the lower dose which intern become not enough and numbers rose dramatically at the end

eileen 07-15-2010 08:16 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
I'm afraid that I really have not been following your thread closely so don't know if this may even apply or if it has already been touched upon....

For a time I gave Mildred R along with her NPH. I worked and struggled with it and in the end found that R just lasted too long in Mildred's system as in reading I found this was true with others who used it.

I then switched her to Humalog at the suggestion of another who had trouble with R and found Humalog to have a much shorter duration so there was no insulin overlap.

Using Humalog now it controls her post prandial spike but is gone from her system in about 5 hours, this when her NPH is then peaking which then carries her thru to her next injections.

I give Mildred Humalog about 15-20 minutes before feeding followed by her NPH immediately after.

Forgive me if this bit of info is useless in your situation, just thought I would throw it out there to give you Mildred's situation when trying to use R.

jesse girl 07-15-2010 08:48 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
every tid bit of information can help it may not apply today or never or maybe some one else was reading your post and said thats what i need for my dogie my dogies digestion appears to be slow to get going so i have to weight a bit and her food spike is much later . the r is just a temp fix it usually last at least i can tell at 5 hours I just use it mostly to clear some high numbers it may work combined handling the onset of food and the nph may handle the possible food spike that seems to come later hmm let me think about that . I appreciate your advise

jesse girl 07-16-2010 02:34 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
here are some numbers for today I dont know where she will end up at the end of the day she may be alot higher and this question wont matter so much so here we go at 2:00 am she was at 377 from a dose at 7pm of 3.5 of n insulin gave a 1/2 unit of r at this 2 am time

5:45 191 this number was influenced by the r insulin
8:50 am 215 after !/2 hour walk not strenuous 238 usually can drop pretty good on any exercise so this is good not alot of influence of insulin
7 am 3.5 units of n and 1 unit of r
7:30 am 238
8 am 168 influence of just r insulin
9:10 am 113 influence of n and r at same time
9:30 am 137 brief food spike usually goes much higher just using n isulin
10:00 am 146
11:00 am 204 another spike up usually will keep going up
12 pm am 140 maybe the above number may be glitch in meter it does happen
12:45 138
2 pm 177 this rise may end in an hour and start going down but we shall see

my question could someone give me there opinion ive been down this road before good numbers but became to much insulin and things spiraled down the difference this time i may be using the same amount of insulin as before a total of 4.5 units but less at the top range of 5.5 but I have incorporated r with that total so all that will be remaining at the end is the 3.5 of n now if my ending point is in the low 200s should I give the same amount of insulin each of r and n if im lower than that should i reduce the dosage of r or n or both my logic behind this is the r to do the early work and the n for the longevity of the cycle 3.5 of n seems to work so far but cant do the early work and more of it can get her pretty low at the end of her cycle this is very early in this program so any suggestions or opinions would be great thank youits about 4 hour to shot time

quick question on exercise last time i took her this morning she did not drop maybe the duration of the insulin is just about finished any influence of insulin and exercise can provide a steep drop but maybe we hit a number on isulin that maybe ending its hot out but I hose her down before she goes so she is a wet mop and when we get back she is dry any thoughts would be nice Of coarse I have my own thoughts but ill see from you talented peaple what you may do in these situations aditional number 3:16 pm 173

k9diabetes 07-18-2010 09:19 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden
 
I'm sorry to be slow to get back to you. I have been away from desk most of the weekend.

Unfortunately, it is hard to make predictions when a regimen is changing all the time. The best advice I can give is to find something you can stick with for a minimum of five days, test and observe, and then look at the data you have collected for that entire time to see what kinds of trends you come up with.

Every dog is different. Plus it is normal for blood sugar to vary some day to day. You can't control those variables but you can control variables of food, insulin, and exercise.

The best information comes from common themes you see as they develop over an extended period of testing where none of the controllable variables changes.

What you did the other day looks promising. Try sticking with that plan for a week and then we could review all of the data you generate during that week.

Natalie


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