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-   -   Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30 (http://k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7901)

bpcooper14 05-13-2019 08:17 AM

Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
So we are going on just about a year with Ace and his EPI/Diabetes and he has been fairly stable (for the most part) with 6 units of Vetsulin twice daily at meals. I've been recently looking at costs and ways to manage his diabetes and found some threads along the way talking about Novlin N but haven't really found a whole lot of discussion pertaining to the 70/30 mixture. In what (I think) i'm reading, the 70/30 a little more closely matches with the profile of vetsulin with a fast acting and longer lasting component. The 'N' is more of a long acting insulin.
I'm just trying to weigh out some options and my current vet does not have a lot of background in dealing with diabetes. Looking forward to hearing from anyone. THANKS in advance!

MikeMurphy 05-13-2019 04:27 PM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Most of us who have switched their dogs from Vetsulin to Novolin N have been successful. You can get it at Walmart for about $25 per vial.

I would start your dog with Novolin N, which is an intermediate acting insulin, and see how he adjusts to it. Donít even worry about Novolin 70/30.

Most dogs wind up on the same dose of Novolin N as they were on with Vetsulin. To be safe, you could start him with one unit less and then do a curve every week until you get him to the proper dose.

bpcooper14 05-14-2019 08:24 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Thanks for the reply. I still have some time before my schedule winds down enough that I'm able to make a switch. Just wanted to try to gather as much info as I can in the meantime.

CraigM 05-19-2019 11:09 PM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Just a reminder that you would also want to switch syringes. Vetsulin uses U-40 syringes, while Novolin-N uses U-100 syringes. This is another advantage since U-100 syringes are the standard syringe used by most humans and come in various sizes that might be easier on the pup. I believe Walmart sells U-100 syringes $12 for 100. Prescriptions may, or may not be required, depending on your local laws / regulations.

Craig

eileen 05-30-2019 08:38 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Vetsulin users actually now have a better option with their choice of insulin syringes.
Advocate has developed a new very thin 31g U-40 syringe. Available also with half unit markings on the barrel.
They come in either 0.5cc or the 0.3cc.

https://advocatemeters.com/advocate-...-5-16-100-box/

bpcooper14 07-22-2019 04:51 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
I've been ordering my syringes from ADW diabetes online. The ones i get also have the 1/2 unit markings. I haven't been able to make the switch over yet due to travel, family visits, and just life in general. Been too hectic to make the switch AND make sure that everything is pretty much stable before making the switch.

jesse girl 07-22-2019 06:22 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
If its working for you and your dog you maybe good to go

CraigM 07-23-2019 01:22 PM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bpcooper14 (Post 167474)
I've been ordering my syringes from ADW diabetes online. The ones i get also have the 1/2 unit markings. I haven't been able to make the switch over yet due to travel, family visits, and just life in general. Been too hectic to make the switch AND make sure that everything is pretty much stable before making the switch.

It might be a good idea if you would tell us exactly what syringe you are currently using with your Vetsulin. Iím a worry-wart and believe itís important to use the correct syringe.

Please remember to get U-100 syringes when you switch to Novolin-N. Using the wrong syringe could result in an insulin overdose. When I switched from Vetsulin to Novolin-N, I donated my leftover U-40 (Vetsulin) syringes to my vet clinic because I wanted them out of the house to prevent any mistake.

Craig

bichons9 08-19-2019 12:26 PM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Does anyone continue to have such wide BG swings on VETSULIN??? I haven't been here for awhile..still up 24/7 worrying about the awful swings with VETSULIN..am still trying after 1.5 years to decide whether to change to Novolin 70/30..If no one has terrible BG swings, then I don't know??? But started thinking...It is thought that a few dogs only need 1 dose/24 hours but most need 2/24hrs...so what if the VETSULIN kicks in sometimes working on 24 hour curve vs 12 hour curve? OR what if the beginning of the vile does not remain the same constituency as at the end of the vile for whatever reason..20 shakes/rolls vs 15, etc.? I almost think I'd rather mix two insulins myself as use to be done with patients in the old days. BTW..because Suzie is so small, I use U-100 =9u rather than U-40= 3.6 units. I hope all of your babies are doing well!!!

jesse girl 08-19-2019 12:43 PM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
do you have any recent complete curves so we can have a look see ?

bichons9 08-19-2019 01:19 PM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jesse girl (Post 167666)
do you have any recent complete curves so we can have a look see ?

The last curve 8/11/was far from the worst but can't upload from pc on this site?..It's on this link at the bottom of the page.Because some am FBG =80 and some =400 I have not been doing alot of curves. If you have time to view Suzie's chart in my signature below, I'd appreciate if any pattern is being observed. We raised her insulin to 9.5 u-U-100/3.8u-U-40 Her health and blood values are fine other than D.M.

Curve ...https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1740071685
Chart... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=811447094

jesse girl 08-19-2019 03:28 PM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
what is ursodio ?

bichons9 08-19-2019 10:24 PM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Ursodiol is Actigall =a normal digestive enzyme already present in body..adding more that may help gallblader/pancreas if sludge is "suspected" after ultrasound..was ordered a year + ago but one of the DVM's said she didn't need it..but kept giving it thinking it couldn't hurt..but AFTER TONIGHT NOTHING MAKES ANY SENSE..will open new vial of Vetsulin, d/c ursodiol and then if no improvement will take her to DVM to see if something wrong...Vetsulin was due to change in 3 days..maybe no good??
6p- 520 AT
8p-461 AT
10p-242 AT and then...
12a-354 AT repeat -369[/Petsure strip-288
1a-AT 420
2a-AT 500
2:20 AM..VETSULIN 4u-(U100) 1.6u (U-40) 2pm was an error...sorry

I have never kept Regular insulin...can't get walgreens to answer ..And Walmart closed

jesse girl 08-20-2019 09:51 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
I understand your frustration . Jesse was similar her first year . She was on vetsulin for maybe 3 weeks and then she went to nph . She would drop like a rock and bounce back up all in a few hours . It was just brutal . I looked at what her biggest problem was which was the big drop after food and insulin and I experimented on reducing that drop which took a long time and allot of trial and error to figure out . What she ended with is numbers that averaged from 100 to 250 for the day and a routine that is quite different than most . I am good with that . She has not been the most consistent dog as far as regulation so I am very happy with where she ended up

Riliey and Mo 08-20-2019 11:14 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Can you please post when you are feeding and injecting insulin?
What food, how much?
I.m confused with your post injecting at 2 pm?
Most people feed and inject in the am and pm.
Thankyou

bichons9 08-21-2019 10:18 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Riliey and Mo (Post 167673)
Can you please post when you are feeding and injecting insulin?
What food, how much?
I.m confused with your post injecting at 2 pm?
Most people feed and inject in the am and pm.
Thankyou

I am sorry..The 2pm was an error..It was 2 :20 AM!!! We were in a panic state on 8/20. I know that most don't include their chart here but you are invited to look at what was going on 8/20..After weeks of erratic BG results, it got bad on 8/20...and because I do not keep "Regular" insulin on board, I was reluctant but gave Suzie 1/2 dose VETSULIN..As it turns out..I believe the VETSULIN vile was probably the issue..Being near the end of the vile on day 39, we also neglected to notice EXPIRATION DATE was 9/2019. However, Suzie will be checked out by DVM to make sure she is ok. The link is below if you wish to see our dilemma on 8/20. Suzie eats Rubie Stewbie 2X/day and receives small piece chicken breast+ 3 green beans if BG gets low. She receives her VETSULIN 25 minutes after each meal at 6am and 6 pm. Her BG tests are performed 7-8X per day since 8/2017 since VETSULIN is very unpredictable in Suzie's case.

Riliey and Mo 08-21-2019 01:16 PM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Yes it seems the new bottle solved the problem
Thanks for clarifying
I.m getting older and my eyes play tricks lol. Its not my eyes this time!

bpcooper14 11-14-2019 01:19 PM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
We've been having a lot of high highs and low lows recently with Ace. Still on Vetsulin but can't seem to dial in the correct dosage with the very and the BG curves. I'm starting to wonder if a switch to another insulin might be warranted. I'm aware we'd be starting from scratch basically.....

jesse girl 11-14-2019 01:37 PM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Big swings in blood sugar can be to much insulin or balance between food and insulin can be a problem . Other factors like EPI , cushings and other challenges can have an affect

A change in insulin can get you to reset the process if struggling . NPH would be the next logical insulin to use

It may not be completely starting over because you already have an understanding what going on and you maybe able to move the process a bit faster

Do you have any recent curves and has regulation ever been good ?

bpcooper14 11-14-2019 06:26 PM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Here is a link to the Google sheet I started with today's readings. The vet has us using a freestyle libre to monitor his levels because it's been difficult getting a prick to get enough blood for a curve at home.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...t?usp=drivesdk

jesse girl 11-14-2019 07:28 PM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Thats a substantial drop but not an off the cliff type of curve

You do know insulin is working just not good balance

I think it would be worth a try with NPH . If you continue to see high fastings during the regulation process and cant get that to stabilize you maybe able to give a short or fast acting insulin at mealtime with NPH. You may have to reduce NPH if you go down that road because the fast acting will carry the load of clearing excess sugar

I have done this with jesse mostly in the early stages of the disease just to keep her out of very high readings but I wanted to find a more stable process which ended with just giving her one meal a day to eliminate for part of the day the food equation which solved the problem and gave a much more stable outcome for her .



If you have any questions just ask

bpcooper14 11-15-2019 05:31 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Now here is where things get really strange. This morning his level was 128 on the libre and 211 with the alpha track monitor. We've had some issues with being super low in the morning and other mornings being high with no change in food or schedule. The vet is just as confused as I am. And my dog is in Virginia with my family and I'm in Tennessee because I started a new job so I'm getting information through the phone, not firsthand.

Raysaint 11-15-2019 06:30 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
With some dogs, and humans, fastings may not be consistent. I check my dog's fasting every morning and record it.

I asterisk any fasting I deem "high", more than I like. Anything over 250. He'll have 6 or 7 of those a month. Possible rebound overnite, or just because. Diabetes is strange.
When it is high, 300 or more, he seems to correct more by nadir time; by midday he can be down to 160.

His other fastings can range from 90 - 216 on a monthly basis. That's what I expect now, and I'm good with it.

I guess you could experiment with food and timing with Vetsulin, or give NPH a try. If you switch, give it some time, don't expect improvements in the first week. You may still have to experiment with food after a few weeks if improvement doesn't happen. There's no silver bullet.

bpcooper14 11-15-2019 08:15 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Thanks for the info. With him also having EPI we've been pretty particular with his feedings and that part of his health has been fairly stable. With the diabetes acting up, we're going to remove as many variables as possible and try to regulate that more consistently. Starting with tonights meal, we're going to just feed him kibble. We're going to remove the fat free cottage cheese, chicken and sweet potato and slightly increase the kibble to compensate. My hope from a scientific point of view is that fewer variables will give us a better look at what we are dealing with. If it looks like the food needs to be changed to help stabilize the highs and lows, then we can do that and look at slowly adding back the elements of his diet that have helped us to keep the EPI in check and the weight on.

bichons9 06-10-2020 03:40 PM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
It's been awhile..still on Vetsulin..HATE IT. My husband is on his way right now to get Novolin 70/30...Terrible weeks..Suzie has anemia and high BG's..DVM's don't know why anemia or high BG's but labs except HCT and PCT good... All drugs ineterfere with each other so had to stop many..Now, hoping the pepcid does not interfere with the insulin...Please look at her chart..UNBELIEVABLE!!!!
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1091352167

jesse girl 06-10-2020 05:22 PM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Its a pretty large imbalance and lots of it looks like rebound to me spiking off a low . There are some really good days but they are far in between . I had similar numbers with jesse early on until we found what worked for her . It could be to much insulin , imbalance with food and insulin ,a medical condition or medications .

With big swings in blood sugar I am not sure 70/30 would be my first choice and i would go with just N as the fast acting part may continue the big drops which possibly lead to big spikes

Not sure if this is a recommendation from your vet to match up in similarity to vetsulin which maybe not the way to go but its up to you . All I can do is give an opinion and I have been surprised something worked or something did not work on occasion

I have seen dogs with not great regulation and did just fine . Especially smaller dogs for some reason . Hope your plan has a good outcome

Riliey and Mo 06-10-2020 06:33 PM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
70/30 insulin will start working fast in 10 to 20 minutes

changing insulins is tricky starting all over

for a 9 lb dog x .25 is 2.25 units twice a day

i would start off with 2.25 units and work up to avoid any large drops and test frequently

sibhus 06-10-2020 09:07 PM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Thought id chime in as ive been using Novolin 70 30 for a month now. I actually switched from Novolin N over to Novolin 70-30 about a month ago and have had great success with it. In my case my dog is a one time eater which results in a huge spike which the N just cant bring down. I first started mixing R with N as 10-90 and then 20-90 and ended up with a 30-70 bias and then just switched to the Novolin 70 30. The N also resulted in a huge variation between the maxima and minima reading of my dogs curve of about 200 points. With the 70 30 it is reduced to about 80 points between his maxima to minima, so his curve is significantly flatter. Also unlike many on this site, im still using regular dog food (Blue Buffalo adult) with high carbs which contributes to this spike which the 70-30 can regulate.

I cant upload my curve as I have a thorough 2 week plot using the Libre system but noticed with the 70 30, a dual nadir, in that the r portion starts dropping one hour after administration and the first nadir occurs at the 2 hour mark and as someone noted it is a prominent spike. The second nadir then occurs about 4.5 hours later due to the N or 70 portion.

Ive spent a lot of time reading diabetic articles and it does seem vetsulin was modeled after Humilin 70 30 to address the post meal spike that occurs in dogs.

bichons9 06-11-2020 01:14 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Thanks to all of you..will send frank for Novolin N tomorrow just in case..DVM's know NOTHING!!! I receive no guidance from DVM's and MERCK claims that they will AGAIN CONSULT MY DVM'S WHICH IS A JOKE...HAVE DONE THIS FOR LAST 2 YEARS. nOT KNOWING CAUSE OF ANEMIA PUT HER ON SUFULCRATE AND PET-TINIC WHICH SPIKED THE BG BIG TIME (IN CASE OF GI BLEED) NOT EVIDENT. NOW HCT WENT FROM 24.1..24.9 AND YESTERDAY 31.5...so it's regenerative. I ASKED IF 2-3 HOURS OF TOENAIL BLEEDING COULD HAVE CAUSED THIS-DOUBTFUL.ANYWAY, I DID WONDER ABOUT DECREASING INSULIN AND DID BUT RAISED HER BG. I have researched all days and nights and get all negative results. Suzie usually had high dinner BG..Now is 558 @ 2:30am .never any ketones. I'd like to go back to Lantus but no one selling at reasonable low prices lately. My DVM does not know how to use Novolin 70/30..only uses NPH...may have to go to university if no one can guide us to help Suzie...DVM wondered about Cushings but I had 3 Bichons treated for Cushings...Suzie has had no increase in water or urination and normal Alkaline Phosphatase?Liver enz normal,,kidney labs normal. I guess now i'll try to research if there is a relationship between anemia and high BG?? Thanks for your advice all..any further info will be greatly appreciated. I asked tech if artificially high glucose was different from diabetes related since no ketones..can't get answer. In addition I searched for the opposite of "Dawn phenomenon" where dinner BG highest rather than morning..no findings?? Thanks again.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1091352167

bichons9 06-11-2020 01:25 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Jessie Girl..I have regular and now 70/30..I don't know dosing if giving r with nph..I don't know dosing with 70/30 either. DVM doesn't know.Allivet is over nighting me another vial of Vetsulin but have opened a new vial today.I see instructions above on 70/30 I think..The DVM's don't take all of this (except anemia) seriously because she remains asymptomatic and no ketones. As a HCP, I only know human DM..not in animals.

bichons9 06-11-2020 01:27 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Riley and Mo..Suzie is 9.6 lbs so with 70/30, I would start with 2.25u??? Is there any shaft that guides one?https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1091352167

bichons9 06-11-2020 01:30 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Sibhus..You get a post meal spike soon after eating with vetsulin or 70/30?https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1091352167

bichons9 06-11-2020 01:39 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
BP cooper...Suzie (13.5yrs) eats 46g Ruby Stewbie (less carrots and the chana dal+ 60 g chicken. Now, she won't eat the chicken breast so Frank bought no additive chicken breast but won't eat it..STRANGE..He replaced chicken with ground hamburger (sirloin) and she eats fine??..Nothing makes sense anymore unless sometging is very worng with Suzie and is not showing in labs..If her Hct doesn't keep increasing (which is so far), DVM wants to perform ct scan and endoscopy to check for ulcer? or bleeding? I need to find and expert soon.

bichons9 06-11-2020 01:54 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
BP Cooper ...I saw the 462 vs 128 vs 2something...The inconsistency and lack of predictability of Vetsulin has me crazy after 2 years+ of it..I recently read about animals killed by vetsulin in 2009 due to instability..and also started wondering if 1/3 dogs get it only once/24 hrs and 2/3 get it 2X/ 24 hrs, is the Insulin changing its length of action at times causing lows when you would expect a high. Shake..don't shake..We shake and roll..though one DVM says shaking can damage molecules hitting side of vial..Who knows!!!! Anyway,,I appreciate all of this info

bichons9 06-11-2020 01:59 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Jesse girl..Her BG was "predicatble" on Lantus but never slept worrying if BG would drop too low at 4 am. I just can't find any "person" selling it lately. No BG curves have ever been great on Vetsulin.

jesse girl 06-11-2020 07:32 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
I do understand how you feel . Been there done that . For my jesse the thing that had the largest affect was switching her to one meal a day with a small snack . Now the reason I suggested trying NPH first is because you tried lantus with good success . This is suppose to be a slow absorption insulin with no fast acting component . Now Nph is faster in absorption but has no fast acting component

The key to 70/30 is if your dog gets a spike after eating before the NPH would kick in and the R ( fast acting ) would move to settle the food spike and usually gets going in a half hour .

Now I dont see any evidence of a meal spike in sugar from the numbers you posted but you dont have many tests at that 2 hour mark after meal to really confirm that thought

Mostly what I see is rebound. If the numbers start off high at shot time your dog will drop and the higher the level the bigger the drop and then then the rebound back up off that big drop . Now if starting at a lower number at insulin time you will get a spike sooner which is understandable as the body recognizes I got a bunch of insulin going into me and I dont have enough blood sugar to deal with it so you get a spike and a type of rebound

What happens I believe its not so much about food as the body trying to balance out injected insulin and the only way it can do that is through stored sugar and it struggles to control that and many times it just opens the flood gates to preserve life so not to go to low and you are left with higher sugar

The problem is not the higher sugar . Its the bodies response to the lower sugar with stored glucose

The key to better control is a flatter curve and actually you want to bring the lower number up which you would expect would bring the higher numbers down .

I have been guilty of paying more attention to the higher numbers over the lower numbers but the higher number maybe a consequence of the lower numbers . Now this is my theory and there is some medical evidence to substantiate that thought but its all a theory because we cant test where that sugar comes from. The body or directly from food or a combination of both . This is why it can be difficult to figure and most dogs never get close to what normal blood sugar looks like

bichons9 06-13-2020 10:42 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
Past 2 days with higher dose high BG curve but no crazy numbers..Just now..back to "CRAZY" BG 130 @10:30 AM...BG 518 @12:20 PM... :confused:

bichons9 06-13-2020 10:51 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
is there a protocol for dosing when switching from Vetsulin to Novolin 70/30? Thanks for your info!!!!

Raysaint 06-13-2020 10:57 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
With Lantus, you say predictable ( that makes some sense), but we're the numbers and curves good enough to say she was " regulated"?

Reason I ask is because a new insulin, Tresiba, is becoming a more recommended one for humans. It is flatter than Lantus, in terms of consistent strength over 24 hours. Lantus does have a bit of a slow peak.

And Tresiba, if I remember, is a straight dose crossover from Lantus. I personally used to use Lantus, 48 units at bedtime, then my doctor switched me to Tresiba, 48 units at bedtime.

bichons9 06-13-2020 11:09 AM

Re: Vetsulin vs. Novolin N vs. Novolin 70/30
 
I guess not since went to Vetsulin...but would have to look back to 2017 to see how the Lantus worked...


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