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-   -   Jenny Diabetic & Cushings Poodle is an Angel... (http://k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2804)

Judi 06-14-2011 11:44 AM

Jenny Diabetic & Cushings Poodle is an Angel...
 
My poodle Jenny was diagnosed 3 weeks ago, in January she tested negative. Her blood sugar has consistently stayed in the 400-500 range.

My vet wants me to keep her on the Hills W/D. I asked him about the Blue Buffalo or an Ultra food I was referred to and he told me too much protein could make her kidneys shut down.

Right now she eats the w/d so we are back on it. I have been varying her food since I had purchased a bunch of others to try. I think this has contributed to her insulin not doing the job. We are currently at 3 units twice a day.

has anyone else ever heard that too much protein can make their kidneys shut down? I'm gonna stick with the w/d for her. My other poodle hates all of the canned food. He is not diabetic but getting him to eat when she is has been a challenge. We can't leave it out or she will eat it all then puke and i worry about low blood sugar if she pukes it all up.

sorry about the long first post. Judi

CarolW 06-14-2011 02:51 PM

Re: Diabetic Veterinary Diets: Which Do/Have You Used?
 
I've heard too that too much protein in a food can affect the kidneys. Some sites say that's not so - selling their own stuff! (But that's the Champion pet foods site, that sells Orijen and Acana - grain-free, very high in protein - and fat, too; not suitable for diabetic dogs).

It certainly would be good if you can get your other poodle to eat at the same time as the diabetic one. I used to separate my two dogs, feeding each in their crates, one with the door tied open; then I wouldn't let the second one out till the other had finished eating.

Dogs usually can adjust to changed feeding times, if you keep working on it; picking up the food, and not offering more till the next meal-time often does the job, and for a Poodle who isn't diabetic, that would probably be a harmless thing to do.

Around here, we love long posts - yours is short; haha! - reason: the more information, the better! If you wouldn't mind answering a few questions, that would help us help you. For instance:

1) How old is Jenny?
2) Is she spayed?
3) How much does Jenny weigh?
4) What times of day do you feed Jenny (and how often)?
5) Do you feed her any snacks?
6) What kind of insulin are you giving Jenny? (I note, 3 units)
7) How many times a day do you inject the insulin?

The common protocol is to feed twice a day, and give insulin very shortly afterwards.

If you read around the forum, you'll see that the diabetic dogs here are on a wide variety of foods. It seems usually, the insulin dose gets tweaked first, starting low and going slow, so as not to overshoot the correct dose for the dog. Once the BG (Blood Glucose) levels seem close to working well, then the food gets tweaked, to make fine adjustments.

Making one change at a time helps us figure out just what is affecting the BG levels.

It's early days in the diagnosis, and I'll bet you and Jenny will do very well! Likely, your other Poodle will adapt also. (I LOVED having two dogs, but now can only manage one.)

Tue, 14 Jun 2011 14:50:30 (PDT)

Judi 06-14-2011 04:28 PM

Re: Diabetic Veterinary Diets: Which Do/Have You Used?
 
Hi Carol & Harry's Mom: thanks for your replies.

Harry's Mom: My Jenny has high liver levels and takes hormones for her incontinence but has never had kidney disease. I think the vet is just being careful since she seems to be falling apart. He also believes that Hills is the gold standard and is loyal to them (and sells them). I'm going to tough it out for a couple more weeks.

I really hope taking the food away from my other dog early works. He is the most persistent whiner around but he needs to lose some weight. I'm hoping we can keep him from becoming diabetic

Carol:Until I started reading around here I didn't realize there is so much I don't know.

1) How old is Jenny? Jenny is 11 this month
2) Is she spayed? yes, she is spayed
3) How much does Jenny weigh? She weighs 8 pounds, she had been 9.5 lost since diagnosis. they say this is a good weight for her but if she got a little lighter they'd be happier.
4) What times of day do you feed Jenny (and how often)? I feed her at 6 am and 6 pm and give the insulin then
5) Do you feed her any snacks? We've always given our dogs the freeze dried liver treats. I cut each one into 3 pieces but haven't been able to take that away from her. She is a foodie
6) What kind of insulin are you giving Jenny? (I note, 3 units) The Humulin N Insulin right after she eats. I try to wait 5 to 10 minutes now that she is up to 3 units
7) How many times a day do you inject the insulin? twice a day

I'm kind of gobsmacked that her levels didn't change at all. My vet is going to call me Thursday. For her to go from 110 in January to holding steady in the 500 and 600's while we are increasing the insulin is mind boggling.

I got a new bottle of insulin from Wal Mart tonight since I had dropped the last bottle twice and wondered if I had disturbed it too much.

I asked the vet tech if many of their patients check blood glucose at home and she said none. Today was our 3rd blood glucose curve at the vets in 4 weeks. The vet said there was no curve, 550 in the morning, holding in the 500's, 625 this afternoon. They let me pick her up early.

I'm so happy to have found this forum. Anything I can do to get her blood sugars settled so we have a chance at saving her eyesight would be a blessing.

Thanks again, Judi

HarrysMom 06-14-2011 04:33 PM

Re: Diabetic Veterinary Diets: Which Do/Have You Used?
 
FYI Blue Buffalo weight control only has 20% protein - not that much higher than W/D. You would sometimes worry with 30-35%+ protein for some dogs.
I did a lot of research on the protein content of different dog food, and Blue Buffalo weight control formula was one of the lowest (you can get some 18% protein - Natural Balance and Innova Senior, but that would be it).

Judi 06-14-2011 04:46 PM

Re: Diabetic Veterinary Diets: Which Do/Have You Used?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HarrysMom (Post 48641)
FYI Blue Buffalo weight control only has 20% protein - not that much higher than W/D. You would sometimes worry with 30-35%+ protein for some dogs.
I did a lot of research on the protein content of different dog food, and Blue Buffalo weight control formula was one of the lowest (you can get some 18% protein - Natural Balance and Innova Senior, but that would be it).

thanks, I'm going to look for that, it is not the one I tried! appreciate it

CarolW 06-14-2011 06:18 PM

Re: Diabetic Veterinary Diets: Which Do/Have You Used?
 
Jenny SHOULD be okay on the WD, or the Blue Buffalo Weight Control - either one. Thanks for answering those questions. Everything seems to me well in order, except, of course, that Jenny is running rather high BG levels. We'll be wanting to keep our eyes on that. I suppose there's a CHANCE she drops to low levels sometime in the day or night, setting her off into Somogyi rebound, for which I can't immediately provide a link, but somebody here can.

Dr. Somogyi discovered that when BG levels drop too far, or too fast, the liver dumps glucose (and various hormones) into the bloodstream, in an effort to save the body from hypoglycemia - sending into hyPERglycemia instead, and the cycle repeats.

When this occurs, the solution is to LOWER, rather than to raise, the insulin dose. Three units is on the high side for an 8-pound dog - it's over a third of a unit per pound of dog. That's fine for some dogs, though in general, it has to be worked up to, because the dog's body requires time to get accustomed to handling injected insulin.

If you can test a few times, say every half hour - around the time you think Jenny is lowest in BG levels, you MIGHT catch a low in there somewhere. I do avoid testing too much, when possible, because no matter how cooperative the dog is, it's a stress on the dog.

But it might be worth identifying Jenny's nadir time (approximate; it can vary day to day, too).

The dried liver snacks are probably okay, but can make it difficult to assess BG levels! Since the dried liver keeps well, could you try using eensy bits of boiled chicken breast (skinless), or even steamed broccoli florets, or some other veggie, instead? That might help you when trying to determine changes to BG levels.

Good for you for learning to test Jenny's levels yourself. I think there's no more useful tool to help us with diabetic dogs!

Jenny wasn't diagnosed as diabetic in January, was she? A level of 110 would be normal, then.

Keep up the good work; we'll be with you!

Tue, 14 Jun 2011 18:18:45 (PDT)

jesse girl 06-14-2011 07:19 PM

Re: Diabetic Veterinary Diets: Which Do/Have You Used?
 
there may be some rebounding going on as carrol suggested

when you take you dog to the vet the event may have already happened and your stuck in high numbers for a couple days

what I saw with my jesse was she would go low for a day then be wildly high for 2 days and then start the cycle again if you tested on the day she was high it would give the appearance that she needed more insulin but it was the opposite she needed less

my jesse went from 16 units a day of insulin to about 4.5 a day

we just kept giving her more and more

until we started testing on a regular bases we probably would have never figured it out just going to the vets every couple weeks would have made it a crap shoot and you dont test at night so you have no clue whats going on at that time I wonder what a doctor would say to a humane diabetic dont home test youll be ok I dont know any humane diabetics that dont test our dogs should have the same advantage

home testing is the best path to regulation and keeping your friend safe

pat3332 06-14-2011 08:16 PM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
Thanks Carol, I'll be sure to tell that to Bailey who loves his Orijen Senior. Maybe that's why his levels are so inconsistent! His kidneys seem to be fine however.

Most studies, have shown that high protein food have no affect on dogs with healthy kidneys. If anyone knows of a good scientific study that definitely shows that high protein food causes kidney problems, please post it. I don't believe studies done on dogs with existing kidney problems have been able to prove that high protein foods do, or don't cause problems in those dogs, so I don't think it's recommended for dogs with existing problems.

I don't believe Champion Foods (Orijen & Acana) have done, commissioned or published any studies of their own. They mainly quote other well regarded studies and I think you'll have trouble finding any recent studies that prove that high protein foods cause kidney problems and usually they end up proving the opposite. Champion is a very reputable company and they have refused to do things in the past that could have increased their sales because there was possibility of it affecting the quality of the food. Most reports that high protein foods cause kidney problems are unproved and based on rumor and hearsay. If a dog went into kidney failure while eating a high protein food that doesn't prove that the food caused the kidney failure. I've already lost one Rottie to kidney failure who never had high protein food. Maybe that was the problem.

I don't think high protein foods like Orijen are the best choice for all diabetic dogs, but they do have their place for those dogs that don't tolerate grains. I don't think the problem is the high protein as much as the higher fat content that seems to go along with the high protein grain free foods. I do think that there is a trade off. Bailey doesn't tolerate corn and all the grains I've tried to feed him tend to cause his glucose levels to spike unacceptably high, so grain free foods are my best option since I'm too poor to feed raw and too lazy to cook his food. Grain free foods tend to be higher in protein and fat and the Orijen Senior has the lowest fat I've found in a grain free kibble, even though I wish it was lower and may be too high for some dogs. I add fiber in the form of steamed yellow squash, Quinoa and Psyllium husks. (Thanks Patty).

W/D works for many diabetic dogs, but many dogs don't like it and won't eat it. It lists corn as its first ingredient, so that rules it out for Bailey. It's not that he won't eat it, the problem is that it irritates his bowel and he just stops eating altogether until I give him something with no corn. If Jenny is eating it, I'd stick with it unless she does stop eating it and continue to monitor her glucose readings. If Jenny does start having trouble with the W/D, I would try the Blue Buffalo weight control diet because a lot of people have had good results with it. I can't think of their exact name for it right now, but if you decide to change, many of us can find it for you. One reason a lot of vets recommend the W/D however is because the sell it through their clinic, so profit from selling it.

Aside from my giving her a hard time for stating rumor and hearsay instead of fact and accusing a reputable company of doing things it hasn't, Carol has asked some good questions that we need to know in order to help and give good suggestions and recommendations. Be honest Carol, you've missed me haven't you. :D

The most important thing you can do is be consistent in everything you do. Don't make changes for no reason, or just for the sake of change. Don't change too quickly, give what you're doing a chance to work or fail, but be flexible enough to make changes if they are necessary. I've made almost all of the above mistakes and I'm hoping you benefit from my experience.

CarolW 06-14-2011 09:04 PM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
Pat - hahaha! WELL-SAID!

You remarked: "I don't think high protein foods like Orijen are the best choice for all diabetic dogs, but they do have their place for those dogs that don't tolerate grains. I don't think the problem is the high protein as much as the higher fat content that seems to go along with the high protein grain free foods."

I'm glad you remarked on that; I would have been afraid to recommend Orijen (or Acana) primarily, because of the high fat content.

And you also remarked: "Aside from my giving her a hard time for stating rumor and hearsay instead of fact and accusing a reputable company of doing things it hasn't, Carol has asked some good questions that we need to know in order to help and give good suggestions and recommendations. Be honest Carol, you've missed me haven't you. "

I have, indeed, Pat, missed you! So glad you're back posting.

Uh, oh, you're right; I did state rumor and hearsay, though I didn't know what else to do, as those rumors are everywhere - including in supposedly reputable places!

I surely didn't intend to accuse Champion Pet foods of being any less than strictly honest and straight-forward; if I'd thought anything else, I wouldn't have changed Camellia over to one of their foods, from another company! (And she seems to be doing REALLY well, on Acana Wild Prairie, though it's very early days - she's only been on that exclusively since Sunday evening - but already, I think I see benefits.)

I gotta rush off, but had to respond to your wonderful post! I really miss you when you're not posting!

Camellia sends her regards to you and Bailey, and so do I!

Tue, 14 Jun 2011 21:04:05 (PDT)

Judi 06-15-2011 01:11 AM

Re: Diabetic Veterinary Diets: Which Do/Have You Used?
 
thanks Carol and Jesse's girl. that is interesting about the rebound I had no clue. I can't believe you were able to lower the dose so much for your dog Jesse's girl. wow.

The vet called last night and wants us to go to 4 units twice a day. He said he won't get too worried until we hit her weight at each dose (8 units) yikes. I'm out of town today but will get a kit and get my nerve up. She is such a good girl.

thank you all for this information and the reassurance. it helps so much.

Judi

CarolW 06-15-2011 03:30 AM

Re: Diabetic Veterinary Diets: Which Do/Have You Used?
 
Hi Judi,

I hope you will WAIT to raise Jenny's dose, till after you get a monitoring kit and learn to test Jenny's BG levels yourself.

That curve the vet did doesn't appear to have readings close enough together - nor overnight - to warrant a raise of insulin dose from three to a whopping four units of insulin- all at once!

Among vets who really specialize in canine diabetes, the word is, to start low, and go slow, which means, when they are approaching the correct insulin dose for the dog, they will likely raise the dose by QUARTER-UNITS, NOT by a whopping whole unit - which can just as easily shoot past the correct dose, and risk serious hypoglycemia.

We have lots of dogs on the forum whose vets have raised doses that fast - then the dogs have suffered low readings, and it takes a week or so for the dog to get back on track, after the dose is LOWERED instead of raised.

It's the middle of the night here, and I need to go back to bed, and I still don't have that link on Somogyi rebound, but I strongly suspect it as a possibility; not saying Jenny is necessarily in rebound.

She should, though, at least be safe (I hope), if you hold the dose steady at three units for now, till you can get a meter and test strips, and test Jenny by doing a full curve, yourself.

I just HATE raining on the parade of such a new member as you! But I'm deeply concerned about Jenny's safety. It won't hurt her to run those higher BGs for a few days.

Hope you'll be back soon, so you can ask for more help!

Camellia sends her regards to you and Jenny, and so do I.

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 03:30:15 (PDT)

Patty 06-15-2011 06:17 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
I don't have a lot of time to reply this morning but wanted to say welcome! I do agree with Carol in that I would not raise her insulin before having a full curve done. You can only raise insulin based on the lowest level of the day and a full unit in a small dog can have a large impact.

I'll try to get back here later today and read up some more on Jenny.
Take care, :)
Patty

Judi 06-16-2011 05:25 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
thank you all for cleaning up my thread and the excellent information.

We did raise her insulin to 4 units per dose as her vet suggested since she has had 3 glucose curves at the vet over the last 4 weeks with no change whatsoever. I just got back and am going to scan the blood glucose monitoring threads today so I can go buy a tester and get started. My husband really doesn't want us to do this because it seems like we are poking and prodding her all the time. But we need to know what we are dealing with to get her insulin right. I hope I can find a place to get a good blood sample without too much pain.

We did leave the full syringe out while she ate so it was a little warmer when we injected.

I'm so glad I found this forum and thanks Pat for the information on the high protein and the kidneys. I'd noticed the fat content in some of the high protein foods so think we will stick with the W/D right now for consistency.

Patty 06-16-2011 05:43 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
Oh good. I'm glad she's had several curves done thus far. It's really important to based the decision to raise insulin on the lowest blood sugar of the day. Would you happen to have the results of her curves done?

I would use caution as you get closer to approaching the "right" dose in using smaller increments. I've noticed a lot of vets move in full unit changes but you can adjust in 1/4 unit increments even by eyeballing a dose between the 1/2u marks.

Something else to consider if her levels continue to remain high is checking for a urinary tract infection as they are more common in our diabetics. Infections can cause some resistance to insulin.

I think you'll find that once you are able to home test that it will actually benefit Jenny in the long run as she'll feel better when you are able to make changes that keep her blood sugar in better control without having to spend the day at the vet. Have you seen the videos on the various places some people test here? This is the link on testing: http://www.k9diabetes.com/bgtestvideos.html

Keep us posted on how she's doing on her new dose!
Take care,
Patty

CarolW 06-16-2011 06:15 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
Sounds as though you basically have things under good control, Judi. I'd missed the fact that Jenny has already had three curves. I stlll feel concerned about raising the dose so much all at once, but if you can learn to test Jenny's BG levels, you can monitor, for safety.

Do keep syrup handy, and if Jenny shows signs of hypoglycemia (staggering, trembling), rub about a teaspoon of the syrup on her gums, and as soon as she can swallow safely, feed her a high-protein, high-carbohydrate treat.

Testing on the lip is painless, because there are so few nerve-endings there. I used Kumbi's lip - was amazed - he really felt NO PAIN at all!

Yell when you want some assistance with testing! And keep up the good work!

Regards to you and Jenny, from Kwali and Kumbi at the Bridge, and Camellia and me on Earth.

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 06:14:17 (PDT)

Judi 06-16-2011 08:16 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
thanks again Patty and Carol. I did watch the videos. What good dogs! Carol I just saw some of your posts about syringes with the half unit markings since I just got in 100 that don't have that! argh.

My vet just faxed me her blood curve info. For some reason I'm missing a date and am not pushing him yet since he thinks I'm nuts.

January 2011 not diabetic yet: 110

5/17/2011 diagnosed at 496 started on 1 unit twice a day

5/24/2011
insulin of 1 unit given at 6:15 am
8:30 415
10:30 530
1:30 542
3:30 423
4:45 470

increased to 1 1/2 units twice a day

5/31/2011 did blood glucose curve at vets, I didn't get #;s but no change
increased to 3 units twice a day

6/14/2011

3 units of insulin given at 6:05 am

8:00 575
10:00 650
12:00 572
3:00 620

I have been feeding her a variety of different foods so that has not helped. She has a liver problem and takes hormones for incontinence. Right now she is not taking her liver medicine. The vet said we can retest all of that wants we get her sugan in line. The Vet doesn't think the hormone she takes is as detrimental to her diabetes as the natural hormones she would be producing if she had not been spayed would be.

This week the goal is the W/D at every meal. We are now at 4 units twice a day, and we are going to play it by ear whether she goes to the vet after 1 week or 2 for her next session there. Hopefully within the next day or so I will have my own monitor and can test her myself.

jesse girl 06-16-2011 08:41 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
home testing will make a huge difference

I had the same look from my vet what planet did you come from look It doesn't matter to me i will do whats necessary to keep jesse happy healthy and safe

Patty 06-16-2011 09:07 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
Quote:

She has a liver problem and takes hormones for incontinence. Right now she is not taking her liver medicine. The vet said we can retest all of that wants we get her sugan in line. The Vet doesn't think the hormone she takes is as detrimental to her diabetes as the natural hormones she would be producing if she had not been spayed would be.

Somehow I glossed over the hormone for incontinence even though you'd written it before. How long has she been on this?

Hormones do play a part in blood sugar regulation as they are an intricate role in the endocrine system. We see intact female dogs that develop diabetes while they are in heat and occasionally go into remission when their heat cycle ends or they are spayed.

Perhaps the hormone is creating a bit of resistance to the insulin effect and it will take more to regulate her.

Judi 06-16-2011 09:15 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Patty (Post 48715)
Somehow I glossed over the hormone for incontinence even though you'd written it before. How long has she been on this?

Hormones do play a part in blood sugar regulation as they are an intricate role in the endocrine system. We see intact female dogs that develop diabetes while they are in heat and occasionally go into remission when their heat cycle ends or they are spayed.

Perhaps the hormone is creating a bit of resistance to the insulin effect and it will take more to regulate her.

She's been on it since last fall. She started losing bladder control in her sleep (first time she was sleeping on my husband's pillow! lol). We started at one pill a week and are up to one pill every 4 days. I forget the name of them and I'm at work. Her Doc did remind me that we are treating the whole dog not just one condition.

She is very sensitive to these hormones. Last week I was trying to wait till evening to give her her hormone and at lunch she had had an accident where she slept.

thanks again, Judi

jesse girl 06-16-2011 09:56 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
I can see where patty is going with this and her instincts may be wright and the hormones may be causing this sustained high blood sugar with no dent from insulin in reduction of numbers and it seems to be going higher

treating the whole dog and not one condition may not be an approach I would take in this case

high numbers like this are not sustainable and needs to be lowered as a priority

it may take allot more insulin to break this possible resistance created by the medication if that is what is happening jesses diabetes did begin at the time she was in heat and she also developed pancreatitis the diabetes may have been temporary but the pancreatitis may have made it permanent just a theory

this is where your home testing will help if resistance is broken you may have to reduce dose or a change in the medication could change the numbers quite dramatically

Judi 06-16-2011 11:39 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
thanks Jesse's girl. I just re-watched a lip video and a base of tail video. Those dogs are all so well behaved. I'm going to pinch Jenny's lip tonight and see what she does.

Jenny's eye Vet only comes to our town once a month. We made a July appointment and I left a message with some questions. She may call me back on Monday. I'm hoping she is more knowledgeable than our regular vet as another resource.

CarolW 06-16-2011 02:11 PM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
When using the "Lip," though I HAVE seen pictures of people pricking the actual Lip - that, I believe is rare, and perhaps you'd have to pinch it.

But the way Natalie pricked Chris - and the way I did Kumbi, was somewhat different. There's a long description, excruciatingly detailed, of the "Lip-Stick," beginnng on this page:

http://www.coherentdog.org/vek/bgtest.php

There are pictures on each page, and I believe they are very clear. I'd suggest leafing through those pages. You can keep using the NEXT buttons above the main pictures on each page, to continue, and you can also use the PREV buttons to go backwards - and the UP button to go to the main index page for this series.

Some people have said this series is helpful. See what you think; ha!

I mention this because instead of pinching, you merely hold the upper lip, folded back, against the upper jaw - which leaves you with one hand remaining to operate with - but a little practice gives the ability.

You can "walk yourself through" the whole sequence - without actually pricking! Which, I think, is a good thing to do, as that way, you get practice, so your hands know what they're doing - ahead of time.

I believe Natalie mentioned that just WHERE you prick (there's some leeway, and only one spot is illustrated in this series) can make a big difference whether the location bleeds easily or not. Also, a dog may bleed more easily on one side than on the other side.

Well, you can read through the pages.

I LOVE the Lip-Stick - because it's actually painless to the dog, with EXTREMELY rare exceptions. I did apparently touch a nerve on Kumbi, twice - out of thousands of pricks! He let me know! Kumbi ALWAYS let me know if something hurt.

You can also use various techniques to engage your dog's cooperation for the Lip-Stick - or any other Sticking location, as well. Remember that we have to learn, but also, the DOG has to learn as well!

Generally, I'd give a small treat after the test; that really helps a dog learn to cooperate. We have numbers of forum members who use the Lip-Stick - or some other Stick - and I hope they'll be along to help you out too.

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:11:29 (PDT)

Judi 06-16-2011 04:03 PM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
your Kumbi sounds like he was a real sweetheart Carol. I'm so sorry he passed. I am just cuddling her right now. I will check out your link and do a few dry test runs this evening. thanks for the link!! and the help

k9diabetes 06-17-2011 10:07 PM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
Hi and Welcome!

It's hard to know what might be behind her rising glucose on more insulin. A couple of things come to mind.

Honeymooning is one possible explanation:
http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2284

You probably caught her diabetes pretty early, so it could be that she was still producing some insulin when the first curve was done and that her insulin-producing ability has been slowly failing and now is completely exhausted, which makes her need more insulin injected to get to the same blood sugar level.

A urinary tract infection is always worth considering any time a diabetic dog's blood sugar goes up. If the vet hasn't checked for this, it should be checked. Bacteria just LOVE all that sugar in the urine.

There are also other potential issues, such as Cushing's disease. That's something to consider down the road if her insulin dose goes much higher. At 8 pounds, 4 units is already half a unit per pound. Nothing wrong with that - it's well within normal - but it's not having much of an effect on her blood sugar. Infections, inflammation, and Cushing's disease all make the body resistant to insulin, requiring a lot more insulin to get the same effect.

Rebound is a possibility but it sure doesn't look like her blood sugar has ever gone low.

But home testing will answer the question for you so that's the next thing I would do.

I would stick with WD for now while you sort out the insulin dose. Later, if you want to change the food, Blue Buffalo has a great reputation here with diabetics and would be one I'd suggest trying.

Natalie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poodles (Post 48712)
January 2011 not diabetic yet: 110

5/17/2011 diagnosed at 496 started on 1 unit twice a day

5/24/2011
insulin of 1 unit given at 6:15 am
8:30 415
10:30 530
1:30 542
3:30 423
4:45 470
increased to 1 1/2 units twice a day

5/31/2011 did blood glucose curve at vets, I didn't get #;s but no change
increased to 3 units twice a day

6/14/2011
3 units of insulin given at 6:05 am
8:00 575
10:00 650
12:00 572
3:00 620


Judi 06-19-2011 06:58 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
thank you Natalie for the info and the link. I will have them check for a UTI, she also needs her teeth cleaned which was postponed the day of the diabetes diagnosis. Her vet did mention that this could be a contributing factor.

I've been worried about Cushings since she started having incontinence but since the hormone works I had let that go.

Jenny already has eye problems. I am trying to prepare myself for the fact that she will most likely go blind and let her enjoy seeing the bunnies and squirrels while she can. Her eye doctor is supposed to call me back tomorrow.

I bought a monitor on Friday but it was like she knew. She has been so crabby I haven't tested yet. I must do it tonight. Thanks again, reading everyone's threads and watching the videos is very helpful

Judi 06-20-2011 06:18 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
well, strike one! I bought the smallest Relion at Wal Mart because they didn't have the One Touch Ultra in stock. The needle was very small so I tried it on her lip. She wiggled and licked any blood we got and was NOT happy I was messing with her mouth.

So, looking for larger lancet today or will just order the better monitor from Amazon.

I have a call in to her vet about her teeth asking why we can't go ahead and clean them in case there is some infection there. No replies needed, just keeping a record. She is still perky but her eyes are looking sunken in and blue.

Abby's Mom 06-20-2011 06:38 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
Welcome!

I am a new member, and everyone has been so helpful. Carol has some wonderful ideas, and I'll let you know what worked for me.

Abby is 11.5 Schnorkie, and she was diagnosed the beginning of May as well. At first she was on 10 units of NPH 1x a day, since then went to 5 units 2x a day. Since then we were off of insulin for a while, her BG levels went to normal (I think we went through some Honeymoon period), but since she had a ACTH test (a test for cushings), they have risen. The folks on this site, suggested a meter, which I bought the One Touch Ultra 2. I took a deep breath, and began the process of getting a drop of blood.

I have found that the base of the tail has worked for me. My Abby would not have me test in her mouth at all. I have trouble cleaning (brushing) her teeth on a weekly basis!! I keep her trim on her back (shave her like a Schauzer), so this is easy for me. She has been very cooperative, but I used Carol's suggestioins and they all seemed to work. Warm Compresses before the test, as well as boiled chicken for Abby has made this a breeze!!

If I can share anything, I'd be more than happy to pass along any information, even though I am a newbie. Just remember that you are not alone.

Judi 06-20-2011 06:41 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
thanks Barb, I've been reading your thread because I think Abby and my Jenny have similar issues. This forum has been a life line for sure!

I hope Abby gets under control, sounds like you are on the right track. I think I'm going to get Jenny tested for Cushings. She has the appetite, the pot belly, and had skin issues earlier this year.

thanks again for the support. It is MUCH appreciated

Patty 06-20-2011 10:23 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
I think one of the main concerns with the dental procedure is putting a newly diagnosed diabetic under anesthesia. Often liver enzymes are elevated with initial diagnosis though not always. I wouldn't want to tax the liver if you don't have to. How bad are her teeth? Could it wait a bit?

I use Petzlife Oral Cleansing gel to brush Ali's teeth. With a dog that won't let you brush, I believe they also have a spray. Just a thought.

If you think there's an infection within her mouth, would the vet consider antibiotics until he/she felt the procedure was safe to do?

Judi 06-20-2011 10:45 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
Hi Patty: yes her teeth can wait; The vet called me back this morning and we agreed that she isn't on enough of a system yet to mess with insulin and food for a fasting anesthesia. Her liver levels have been elevated for quite some time.

Great idea about the antibiotic though, I'm going to ask him for one.

Abby's Mom 06-20-2011 11:37 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
If you can join the sister site for the K9 Cushings, they too have a wealth of information. What I read there, made me stop my treatment of Trilostane (she was only on it for two days), until we have further testing, and also to be sure that the treatment plan involves 2x a day, and a small dose to start off with (alot smaller than my 20 mgs). I believe that information came from Harry's Mom.

This is a great place to share your experiences and to learn from others. Sometimes you feel so alone out there!!

Judi 06-28-2011 07:33 PM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
Frustrated, with myself and my vet.

I still haven't managed a blood sample for Jenny. I did test our meter at her vet's today as she was in for her fourth curve.

there is still no curve

older stuff:

January 2011 not diabetic yet: 110

5/17/2011 diagnosed at 496 started on 1 unit twice a day

5/24/2011
insulin of 1 unit given at 6:15 am
8:30 415
10:30 530
1:30 542
3:30 423
4:45 470
increased to 1 1/2 units twice a day

5/31/2011 did blood glucose curve at vets, I didn't get #;s but no change
increased to 3 units twice a day

6/14/2011
3 units of insulin given at 6:05 am
8:00 575
10:00 650
12:00 572
3:00 620

6/27/2011 been on 4 units twice a day for two weeks

4 units of insulin and 1/2 can of W/D at 6:05
8:30 406
10:40 469
12:30 559
2:30 492
4:00 502

********
Jenny has a voracious appetite, a pot belly, elevated liver phosphates. I asked if it is possible she has Cushings.

My vet, who is at an auction barn on Tuesdays when Jenny and I are in town for her tests (but who is some kind of power struggle with the other vet who won't get involved) tells me that if *I* think her pot belly is that distinct he will refer me to the University of Minnesota, 3 1/2 hours away for a Cushings test. I told him I have read on the internet :) but am not a vet and don't know if this is just a diabetes symptom.

She is obviously insulin resistant.

So, bottom line he is either
1. humoring me cause I am a pain
2. referring me to someone else cause I am a pain
3. referring me to someone else because he doesn't know

My husband pointed out that the bottom line is still that we need a second opinion. so his motives don't matter

when I mentioned that I'm struggling to test Jenny's blood sugar myself the vet tech thought the lip was a bad idea to create a wound and that the base of the tail is a bad idea. She thought I should try the ear. I haven't tried yet.

I need to read more on the Cushings forum. Jenny's eye doctor comes to our area once a month but I am going to call her tomorrow for a referral for a second opinion.

Jenny is 11. She has medical problems. But she is peppy happy dog. I am not ready to give up but I am very frustrated with my vet and my weeniness about her blood samples.

thanks for letting me vent and all of the information.

6 weeks and her levels are still so high. Even her vet warned me that bad things may start happening soon if we don't get her levels down.

Judi

jesse girl 06-28-2011 08:41 PM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
we have been testing the lip for over a year and lots of times no problems lips are healthy and jesse is fine with it and others have done much longer never heard of a problem so that myth can be laid to rest as being unhealthy to do

there is a substantial improvement on the last curve and maybe 1 unit or less from seeing much better numbers is possible

HarrysMom 06-28-2011 09:00 PM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
We've been using inside lips for testing without any problems so far.
In addition to elevated alk phos, does your dog also have elevated cholesterol?
How is her coat condition? Any skin problems?
My dog has Cushing's, and he did show almost all the symptoms:
(1) hunger - he used to be an extremely picky eater, and we knew that something changed when he started devouring his dry kibble.
(2) excessive urinaiton and thirst
(3) elevated liver values - 3-5x normal values
(4) ultrasounds showed bilaterally enlarged adrenal glands
(5) high cholesterol
(6) protein in urine
(7) hair took a year to grow back after each ultrasounds
(8) started to lose hair
(9) muscle wasting
(10) skin infections
(11) slight potbelly
(12) gained 8 lbs.

Pamala 06-29-2011 04:07 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Abby's Mom (Post 49020)
If you can join the sister site for the K9 Cushings, they too have a wealth of information. What I read there, made me stop my treatment of Trilostane (she was only on it for two days), until we have further testing, and also to be sure that the treatment plan involves 2x a day, and a small dose to start off with (alot smaller than my 20 mgs). I believe that information came from Harry's Mom.

This is a great place to share your experiences and to learn from others. Sometimes you feel so alone out there!!

What are the signs of cushings?

Pamala 06-29-2011 04:16 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
We put our girl on a counter and take blood from the little pad under her front paws works reall well.

Judi 06-29-2011 05:42 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
I'm gonna try the lip again. thanks to you and Jesse for the reassurance. I'm looking at her last hematology report but I don't see cholesterol on there.

She doesn't seem to be losing hair but she did have some skin problems this winter. It mostly cleared up from an antibiotic.

I'm going to call around for a second vet opinion today. I asked my vet if we could do an ultrasound and he didn't think it would be conclusive enough.

I really think he is just sick of me and my questions.

thanks to all of you.

Pamela, the footpad looks tough, I don't think I could do it there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarrysMom (Post 49649)
We've been using inside lips for testing without any problems so far.
In addition to elevated alk phos, does your dog also have elevated cholesterol?
How is her coat condition? Any skin problems?
My dog has Cushing's, and he did show almost all the symptoms:
(1) hunger - he used to be an extremely picky eater, and we knew that something changed when he started devouring his dry kibble.
(2) excessive urinaiton and thirst
(3) elevated liver values - 3-5x normal values
(4) ultrasounds showed bilaterally enlarged adrenal glands
(5) high cholesterol
(6) protein in urine
(7) hair took a year to grow back after each ultrasounds
(8) started to lose hair
(9) muscle wasting
(10) skin infections
(11) slight potbelly
(12) gained 8 lbs.


Judi 06-29-2011 05:43 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
Pamala: symptoms of Cushings:

What are the Symptoms of Cushing's?

Typical physical symptoms include:

Increased/excessive drinking (polydipsia or PD)
Increased/excessive urination (polyuria or PU)
Increased/excessive appetite (polyphagia)
enlarged, distended abdomen
muscle weakness (most commonly in the back legs)
thinning hair (alopecia--usually evenly distributed) and lack of new hair growth
thinning skin
"skull-like" appearance of head
hyperpigmentation of skin
calcified skin bumps
obesity
chronic or frequent infections (most notably pancreatitis, urinary tract infections, strep throat, and staph infections)

Behavioral symptoms include:

lethargy/decreased activity
increased panting
seeking out of cool sleeping surfaces (bathroom tiles, etc.)
disturbance of the sleep/wake pattern (increased sleeping during the day, restlessness at night)
decreased interaction with owner

bgdavis 06-29-2011 08:48 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
Hi,

My girl, Crissy, had both Cushings' and diabetes. I tested her blood on the inside upper lip for 5 years with great success. If you want to see a picture of a dog with Cushings' take a look at her pictures here:
http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83


Bonnie and Angel Criss

k9diabetes 06-29-2011 10:40 AM

Re: Question about protein in diets
 
I just have a moment, but wanted to mention that technically at 8 pounds and 4 units, she is not insulin resistant. She would have to be getting 8 or more units of insulin per injection and still show no movement in her blood sugar.

Some dogs need more than the average size dose. We have had a couple of terriers here who each weighed about 24 pounds and both needed around 21 units of insulin per injection. Once they got that much insulin, their regulation was just fine. They just needed a higher than average dose.

And there is a tendency for the blood sugar to hover in the 300s and 400s until you get really close to the right dose before it drops significantly.

So it's possible she just plain needs more insulin than she's getting.

The dose should be increased - was it after the last curve?

You really don't want to be caught trying to figure out what the issues are with these vets. So a second opinion sounds like a good idea. Perhaps there is someone closer who could give you what you need as that is a very long drive.

Natalie


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