Sweetheart golden/lab Jack passed away March 23, 2016

[amyt]

Hi everybody. My Jack was diagnosed about 3 months ago with diabetes. He’s a big, sweet golden/lab mix (about 7 years old), started at 108 lbs at diagnosis and is down to 91 lbs right now. I have a question about food. On top of everything else we’re trying to figure out right now, I’m feeling overwhelmed about the food issue. Here’s some background:

Initially I was feeding him Purina DCO and giving him 23 Novolin units 2/day, but when he went in for his first glucose curve, he had a high spike (450) at 4 hours, then a gradual drop to 88 at 8 hours. The vet was concerned about the drop in the afternoon, so she decreased the insulin to 18 units 2/day. I was concerned about the food because it contains so much corn and it was so expensive. I decided to switch to Blue Buffalo Healthy Weight, and when he went in for his 2nd curve, the readings were very high all day (147 1st reading, then 580, 432, 366, 427, 462, 481). Blue Buffalo wasn’t working. The vet recommended increasing the insulin to 20 units 2/day and going back on the DCO, so we did. I still was concerned about the corn in the food, and the more I read online about homecooking, the more I wanted to try it (actually mixing real food and the DCO 50/50).

Now my head is so turned around with all of the things to consider when cooking for him (calories, quantities, expense) that I was hoping somebody here could give me some advice.

I’ve read that he needs about 1700 calories/day, so 850 calories per meal (about 425 calories from the DCO and 425 real food). All of the recipes I see from people giving their (big) dogs the homecooked/prescription food mix are giving their dogs 1-2 cups dry rx food and 1 cup cooked per meal. I’ve figured that the

4 cups green beans
2 lbs chicken breast (about 6 cups)
2 cups uncooked brown rice (so 6 cups cooked)
2 cans black beans

that I just cooked for him (for about 7 of the 50/50 meals) has about 3600 calories, but it winds up being 23 cups. Each cup has about 156 calories, so I’d need to give him almost 3 cups of real food per meal to make sure he gets the 425 calories he needs. Plus the 1+ cup of DCO. So 8+ cups of food per day. That seems like an enormous amount of food for this dog. Am I doing something wrong with my math? Plus when I calculated how much everything costs and how much he needs, the real food seems to be more expensive than the DCO on a cup versus cup basis.

I go to Walmart for the insulin & supplies, but don’t have the glucometer. I just can’t afford it right now. So I’m depending on the vet and her curves @ $40 every 4-6 weeks (which I realize is a really good price, but a lot of money for me nonetheless). Can anybody out there help me clear up my confusion on the food? It’s like a Rubik’s cube puzzle for me and it’s driving me crazy. I go to sleep thinking about it and it’s the first thing on my mind when I wake up.

Sorry for this long post. We’re heartsick about Jack and I’m hyper-focused on doing the best I can manage for him.

[jesse girl]

Re: Food Quantities?

hi and welcome

those are some big swings in blood sugar not sure if it is food related

the second batch of numbers you posted saw a 147 to start which is good than a huge swing up its very difficult to determine if its food or maybe a response from the body and can be difficult to figure out

it is possible you are still giving to much insulin and a clue to that is big swings in blood sugar your vets decision to lower the dose was appropriate

if you do reduce the dose what you want to look for if the numbers flatten out and no big swings and that may point to a possible overdose


if you are not testing blood sugar at home i would recommend it the larger dogs are usually very easy to test the information you will get from testing will greatly help to figure things out more quickly and most important keeping your baby safe

another issue to think about how does your vet test blood sugar with a hand held meter or a lab analyzer

handheld meters even the pet one can have the potential for being off quite a bit at higher levels and seeing those big swings may point to the numbers may be a bit off so it maybe worth discussing with you vet

[CraigM]

Re: Food Quantities?

I'm just thinking "out loud". When you tried the Blue Buffalo, did you reduce the amount fed? If I'm right, the DCO is a very high fiber food and requires quite a bit more than the Blue Buffalo?

The insulin reduction from 23 units because of the 88 reading was a good idea, but dropping 5 units might have been too much of a reduction, especially if you switched to Blue Buffalo at the same time.

[CraigM]

Re: Food Quantities?

I'm back from running errands. Let me add to my earlier post.

Did you feed the same amount of Blue Buffalo as you did DCO? If you did, then you might have given more food than he needed which may have caused the high numbers? Combined with the 5 unit reduction (about 20%), that could really have raised the numbers.

I realize Annie is much smaller than your pup, but a 5% change (1/4 unit for her normal 7 1/4 injection of NPH) in insulin makes a noticeable change in her.

[momofdecker]

Re: Food Quantities?

Welcome to you! I don't have any direct diet recommendations but I do have a book that was recommended to me that I wanted to pass along. Lew Olson's 'Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs.' The book has examples of low glycemic diets and breaks the foods into ounces and then tells you how much to feed based on the weight of your dog.

Tried a modified recipe out of the book for two weeks for my Decker. He loved it. Was getting over chronic pancreatitis due to undiagnosed hypothyroidism. The book also had great tips for pancreatitis diets as well as things to consider for hypothyroid dogs.

Best of luck to you on this new journey! Holli

[jesse girl]

Re: Food Quantities?

Welcome to you! I don't have any direct diet recommendations but I do have a book that was recommended to me that I wanted to pass along. Lew Olson's 'Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs.' The book has examples of low glycemic diets and breaks the foods into ounces and then tells you how much to feed based on the weight of your dog.

Tried a modified recipe out of the book for two weeks for my Decker. He loved it. Was getting over chronic pancreatitis due to undiagnosed hypothyroidism. The book also had great tips for pancreatitis diets as well as things to consider for hypothyroid dogs.

Best of luck to you on this new journey! Holli

that sounds like a good book i know there are diets and supplements for liver maybe kidneys but i wondered about the pancreas and what you can do to strengthen which for most of our diabetic babies can have problems with jesse had severe pancreatitis early on i think she had some flare ups a few month after that and the she seems to be doing good now knock on wood

[Rubytuesday]

Re: Food Quantities?

Hey there, I can't offer anything regarding the diet. I have all I can manage with figuring out the insulin so have gone with a prepared low carb/ high protien diet.

I wanted to encourage you to rethink home testing as I think that might help a lot with the weight gain. When the numbers are out of whack the body isn't able to absorb all the nutrients in the food.

Walmart has an inexpensive meter (Prime $20) and the strips are $9 for fifty. Then you would be able to evaluate the changes you are making very quickly. A food change you can test to see how it is working right away, and after dose changes you can do a curve as soon as 3 days after.

You might also do some research on organs extra virgin coconut oil. I think it can help with weight gain even when numbers are high. You wouldn't want to use it though if your dog was prone to pancreatitis and I would start slowly to be sure it didn't cause a problem.

Tara

[amyt]

Re: Food Quantities?

Hi Craig, thanks for thinking about my situation (twice!). I don't remember exactly how much I was feeding Jack when he was solely eating the Blue Buffalo, but I know that after the diagnosis, I looked for hours online at discussions on dry food, decided on the Blue Buffalo Healthy Weight, and would have followed the recommendations on the back of the bag for his current weight (on the lower side since I consider him to be "inactive" moreso than "active").

I know I did 2 things at once (changed dog food and lowered the insulin) so it's harder to point a finger to exactly what caused the increased numbers, but I felt frantic about it actually, and wanted to fix it, you know?

Part of me feels like I should have these curves done more often. The vet I'm going to is part of a non-profit practice and sees people on a sliding scale thankfully, plus she has a diabetic dog herself (the other type, insipidus), so I feel she's doing her best for us. But it's still expensive for us right now. And I think it makes Jack anxious to be there all day -- he won't drink water there and when he comes home he drains everything, even going for the toilet water. Just like he's been in the desert for 8 hours. I don't know how much of a factor that can be on glucose levels, but I'm sure it doesn't help.

[Rubytuesday]

Re: Food Quantities?

Hi Craig, thanks for thinking about my situation (twice!). I don't remember exactly how much I was feeding Jack when he was solely eating the Blue Buffalo, but I know that after the diagnosis, I looked for hours online at discussions on dry food, decided on the Blue Buffalo Healthy Weight, and would have followed the recommendations on the back of the bag for his current weight (on the lower side since I consider him to be "inactive" moreso than "active").

I know I did 2 things at once (changed dog food and lowered the insulin) so it's harder to point a finger to exactly what caused the increased numbers, but I felt frantic about it actually, and wanted to fix it, you know?

Part of me feels like I should have these curves done more often. The vet I'm going to is part of a non-profit practice and sees people on a sliding scale thankfully, plus she has a diabetic dog herself (the other type, insipidus), so I feel she's doing her best for us. But it's still expensive for us right now. And I think it makes Jack anxious to be there all day -- he won't drink water there and when he comes home he drains everything, even going for the toilet water. Just like he's been in the desert for 8 hours. I don't know how much of a factor that can be on glucose levels, but I'm sure it doesn't help.

Stress can raise and sometimes even lower bg levels. Whichever way it tends to affect your guy will probably stay consisten, but it may be different from how other dog's bgs react. I have read that dehydration can make the bgs read higher as the blood is more concentrated.

I was wondering how the vet curves were so inexpensive for you. You could always do drive by curves, where you go to the vet before food and insulin have them test and then take the dog home and feed,. returning to the vet every two hrs. to have the bgs tested up till dinner time. Only you can judge if you think this might help with the stress.

There is no reason other then cost and convenience to wait so long between curves. Doing them sooner will get you where you want to be sooner.

Tara

[amyt]

Re: Food Quantities?

Welcome to you! I don't have any direct diet recommendations but I do have a book that was recommended to me that I wanted to pass along. Lew Olson's 'Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs.' The book has examples of low glycemic diets and breaks the foods into ounces and then tells you how much to feed based on the weight of your dog.

Tried a modified recipe out of the book for two weeks for my Decker. He loved it. Was getting over chronic pancreatitis due to undiagnosed hypothyroidism. The book also had great tips for pancreatitis diets as well as things to consider for hypothyroid dogs.

Best of luck to you on this new journey! Holli

Thanks for the recommendation on the book. It sounds like it could help me figure this stuff out. Expecially with the ounce breakdown and Jack's weight. I'm trying so to help him, but with every meal, I worry I'm doing more harm. I'm glad the book was useful for your Decker; I've seen it mentioned several times online, but saw the word "raw" and then dismissed the whole thing.

[amyt]

Re: Food Quantities?

Stress can raise and sometimes even lower bg levels. Whichever way it tends to affect your guy will probably stay consisten, but it may be different from how other dog's bgs react. I have read that dehydration can make the bgs read higher as the blood is more concentrated.

I was wondering how the vet curves were so inexpensive for you. You could always do drive by curves, where you go to the vet before food and insulin have them test and then take the dog home and feed,. returning to the vet every two hrs. to have the bgs tested up till dinner time. Only you can judge if you think this might help with the stress.

There is no reason other then cost and convenience to wait so long between curves. Doing them sooner will get you where you want to be sooner.

Tara

Wow, you guys are fast! I thought the same thing, that the stress of those surroundings could be influencing the results. I don't know about doing the bgs on a home-to-vet 2-hr basis though. Just because the office is always jampacked with people waiting their turn to see the vets. Lots of rescue groups go to the practice since the vets offer low cost services. I'll ask though, next time Jack needs to go. Thanks for the suggestion -- I hadn't thought of it. "Doing them sooner will get you where you want to be sooner" I think about this a lot -- it's a balancing act for me between money and worry. And guilt too for worrying about the money part.

[amyt]

Re: Food Quantities?

Hey there, I can't offer anything regarding the diet. I have all I can manage with figuring out the insulin so have gone with a prepared low carb/ high protien diet.

I wanted to encourage you to rethink home testing as I think that might help a lot with the weight gain. When the numbers are out of whack the body isn't able to absorb all the nutrients in the food.

Walmart has an inexpensive meter (Prime $20) and the strips are $9 for fifty. Then you would be able to evaluate the changes you are making very quickly. A food change you can test to see how it is working right away, and after dose changes you can do a curve as soon as 3 days after.

You might also do some research on organs extra virgin coconut oil. I think it can help with weight gain even when numbers are high. You wouldn't want to use it though if your dog was prone to pancreatitis and I would start slowly to be sure it didn't cause a problem.

Tara

Tara, do you think the Relion meter is consistent? I know it's the least expensive. Which one do you use? The Prime or the Contour or the 3rd type?

[Rubytuesday]

Re: Food Quantities?

WELL..... I do have a love/ hate relationship with the relion meters. I love the cost of them and the convenience of getting them at any walmart. I do have a problem though of consistently getting them to draw up enough blood. Sometimes they will give an error code, but sometimes without an error code if I retest with a better drop of blood the numbers can be quite different.

I used to dry the lip area that I tested with the palm of my hand, but have recently started Natalie's trick of drying the area with a paper towel. This helps to bead the blood up better, forming a nice little drop of blood. I am now in the process of comparing the Prime to my middle of the road One Touch Ultra. I have the Alphatrack, but I just use that for comparisons and if we see low lows.

If I had more money to spend on strips....we test a lot....I would use the One touch ultras all the time, and may have to go back to them just to not be second guessing the Prime all the time.

You can get a Onetouch ultra on ebay for about $20 and the strips for about $25 for 50 strips. So about $50 dollars or so with shipping, could get you through 4 curves.

The other bootleg way you can try is asking around to see if anyone you know is diabetic. You may find someone who has extra strips. I would be happy to give you my Relion Confirm meter, but those strips are $20 for 50 or $36 for 100, versus the $20 Prime meter and $10 for fifty strips.

Lots of times with this disease you have to prioritize and put your resources where it makes the most sense. If you couldn't do the One Touch, the Prime or Confirm would be better then only doing curves every 4-6 weeks.

I don't say the following to scare you, only so you can have all the info to prioritize. When bg levels run high for an extended period of time the body can produce ketones which depending on other variables can be a very serious (read expensive), sometimes fatal situation fairly quickly. This is why I think any money, wether it is the one touch or the prime is a good investment.

Tara

[amyt]

Re: Food Quantities?

WELL..... I do have a love/ hate relationship with the relion meters. I love the cost of them and the convenience of getting them at any walmart. I do have a problem though of consistently getting them to draw up enough blood. Sometimes they will give an error code, but sometimes without an error code if I retest with a better drop of blood the numbers can be quite different.

I used to dry the lip area that I tested with the palm of my hand, but have recently started Natalie's trick of drying the area with a paper towel. This helps to bead the blood up better, forming a nice little drop of blood. I am now in the process of comparing the Prime to my middle of the road One Touch Ultra. I have the Alphatrack, but I just use that for comparisons and if we see low lows.

If I had more money to spend on strips....we test a lot....I would use the One touch ultras all the time, and may have to go back to them just to not be second guessing the Prime all the time.

You can get a Onetouch ultra on ebay for about $20 and the strips for about $25 for 50 strips. So about $50 dollars or so with shipping, could get you through 4 curves.

The other bootleg way you can try is asking around to see if anyone you know is diabetic. You may find someone who has extra strips. I would be happy to give you my Relion Confirm meter, but those strips are $20 for 50 or $36 for 100, versus the $20 Prime meter and $10 for fifty strips.

Lots of times with this disease you have to prioritize and put your resources where it makes the most sense. If you couldn't do the One Touch, the Prime or Confirm would be better then only doing curves every 4-6 weeks.

I don't say the following to scare you, only so you can have all the info to prioritize. When bg levels run high for an extended period of time the body can produce ketones which depending on other variables can be a very serious (read expensive), sometimes fatal situation fairly quickly. This is why I think any money, wether it is the one touch or the prime is a good investment.

Tara

Thanks so much for taking the time to give me your opinion on the meters. As a matter of fact, my husband has type II diabetes and does have an old One Touch Ultra, probably used last in 2009 or so (he's controlling with diet and isn't good about keeping up with his testing, so the only strips we have expired in 2009....). I had priced the One Touch strips and thought that the $25 for 50 could be put to better use with the Relion meter/strip combo. plus the fact that the strips from that point forward would be cheaper. But I don't want the inconsistency I read that some people experience with it.

Our One Touch needs a new battery, and if I can get one cheaply, I'm going to go with that one at least at first when I'm trying to get a handle on his glucose patterns (your saying I'd get 4 curves is a great way to look at it). Then maybe later I'll switch to the Relion when I feel more confident things are going smoothly with Jack.

Thank you for your help Tara. You've helped me make up my mind on this -- which if you knew me, you'd realize is no easy task!

Amy

[amyt]

Re: Food Quantities?

hi and welcome

those are some big swings in blood sugar not sure if it is food related

the second batch of numbers you posted saw a 147 to start which is good than a huge swing up its very difficult to determine if its food or maybe a response from the body and can be difficult to figure out

it is possible you are still giving to much insulin and a clue to that is big swings in blood sugar your vets decision to lower the dose was appropriate

if you do reduce the dose what you want to look for if the numbers flatten out and no big swings and that may point to a possible overdose


if you are not testing blood sugar at home i would recommend it the larger dogs are usually very easy to test the information you will get from testing will greatly help to figure things out more quickly and most important keeping your baby safe

another issue to think about how does your vet test blood sugar with a hand held meter or a lab analyzer

handheld meters even the pet one can have the potential for being off quite a bit at higher levels and seeing those big swings may point to the numbers may be a bit off so it maybe worth discussing with you vet

I don't know how the vet tests; I had assumed they did it with labwork, but maybe they take the easy route. I'll ask and see. Thanks for thinking about this aspect of things. I'm going to get a meter and do my own testing as soon as I can, hopefully this week. I trust the vet but since I'm waiting so long in between vet visits it could keep things on a more even keel.

And I'll ask the vet about the possibility of the high numbers being because of too much insulin. I didn't know that could happen.

Thanks again so much for your help.