Jenny Diabetic & Cushings Poodle is an Angel...

[k9diabetes]

Re: Question about protein in diets

There's really no rush to treat Cushing's disease even if she has it. I would continue working the diabetes and set aside any Cushing's treatment for now. How she responds to diabetes treatment can tell you a lot about whether Cushing's disease is actually present.

If she has Cushing's and it's not treated, damage occurs only after going without treatment for a long time. So you can wait and see how things go without causing any problems.

The lysodren treatment would affect her blood sugar - typically requiring her to need less insulin... but I think I saw at the Cushing's forum that you are not going to give Lysodren for now.

I'll try to get back later and write more.

Natalie

[bgdavis]

Re: Question about protein in diets

Judi,

The only reaction I was warned about with Criss was the possible need to reduce her insulin when she took her Lysodren doses. She was 'loaded' with a high dosage of Lysodren daily for about 8 days. Once her ACTH test showed a positive result, she then went on a weekly dose. I divided it up into 3 smaller doses so as not to have a great affect on the insulin.

Bonnie and Angel Criss

[Judi]

Re: Question about protein in diets

thanks Natalie and Bonnie. I think I'll be more informed after tomorrow's round of testing and BG curve. Friday was so rushed. I had thought that the Cushings needed to be dealt with first.

Appreciate the info and glad we got her in tomorrow for a new round of tests. If I have to go the University of Minnesota I will but I'm hoping this new vet is knowledgeable as I heard he was.

fingers crossed. Judi

p.s. I just read Criss' story again. You are the best dog mom around

[Judi]

Re: Question about protein in diets

I have to say as frustrated as I've been with Jenny's primary vet he called me tonight for our "weekly Tuesday Jenny phone call." Even though I have another vet doing the Cushing and Diabetes monitoring now.

He did advise me that if it comes to an ultrasound I should probably go to someone with a lot of ultrasound experience.

After reading Pamala's nightmare vet experience I am appreciating the better sides of him.

[Abby's Mom]

Re: Question about protein in diets

Hi,

We have been on vacation, so I have not kept up with posts, but my Abby was diagnosed from one vet as diabetes, and the other vet as possible cushings, and possibly not diabetic. I believe Abby went through a slight 'Honeymoon" period, as once she was on insulin (10 units once a day the first vet prescribed), she then did not need any for about 1 week, and then we changed over to 2 units 2x a day, and she is now up to 4 units 2x a day and doing quite nicely. The symptons that they stated that she had for Cushings was (potbelly (her liver functions were high and ultra sound showed enlarged liver, but everything was healthly). She ate a lot (this has gone away since she has been regulated), and she lost 8 lbs (she needed it). Her hair does not fall out, and grows back quickly. During vacation she hiked 3 miles up and down mountains with no problems. So, even though her ACTH test came back positive and she had two adrenal glands that looks enlarged, I have decided to table the treatment for Cushings. From the Cushings site, it is highly recommended that you go to a specialist, as I believe that both symptons for diabetes and cushings are similar. I have found it rare that vets have both a Cushings and Diabetic dog.

Good luck and keep us posted!

[Judi]

Re: Question about protein in diets

Thanks Barb. It is really good to hear everyone's input. I know Jenny's primary vet keeps emphasizing to me that we are treating one unique little poodle and just want her to enjoy her life.

I'll be curious to see what this second vet says when I pick her up at 5pm today. This is a new place for her and as nice as they are I hated leaving her there she is such a good girl.

Sounds like Jenny & Abby share a lot of the same symptoms. I think if Jenny does have Cushings she has had it for at least 8 months untreated but if her blood sugar is still as high as it has been I will ask him how much it will hurt to hold off on the Cushings treatment.

Jenny's cholesterol and triglyceride #'s came in high but the vet had taken the blood at 2 or 3 in the afternoon when she ate at 6 am. He said the triglycerides were well over 1200 and the cholesterol was in the 300's but that she has other more important issues to worry about right now.

All she eats is Hills W/D and a couple of freeze dried liver treats each day. I did have to wrap some cheese around the Lysodern but that is all she has had since her diabetes diagnosis.

my baby is a wreck

thanks again, Judi

[Abby's Mom]

Re: Question about protein in diets

Judi,

What were her readings for the ACHT test? Where they just slightly high? Has Jenny had any ultrasounds, and what are her symptons? You know if it wasn't for my postings on the Cushing's site, I think I would have been treating for Cushings (I have the pills for Trilostane). Decided to get one thing in check, and hold off on the Cushings for awhile.

Good luck, and please let us know. I too believe that Jenny and Abby have alot in common.

Chin up!!

[Judi]

Re: Question about protein in diets

Jenny's pre ACHT test was normal and her post was 26. The vet wanted to start the Lysodern before looking for tumors as he has had good success with that. He was not sure why she immediately got diarrhea and threw up from the drug so I'm anxious to get today's test results.

She has the pot belly, has had skin infections (he thinks her hair is sparse), her liver phosphates are through the roof

I'll update tonight after I get her back

Her blood sugar hasn't been under the 400/500's since she was diagnosed with diabetes in mid-May

After the advice from Natalie here and Cushing forum, I read Abby and Hattie's threads and realized we don't necessarily want to rush the Cushings drugs.

thanks, Judi

[Judi]

Re: Question about protein in diets

Jenny's blood sugars are improving!! This is a first!! But I definitely have to suck it up and start home testing because the vet thinks her insulin is probably working for 14-16 hours as her lows were her 8am and 10 am readings.

They may have fed her at the vet today. She smelled like dog food when I picked her up and she only ate half her supper which is a first so I don't know about her late high readings.

They won't get her Cushing test results till tomorrow or the next day so we are leaving her at 5 units twice a day for now.

Jenny uses the Wal Mart insulin and this vet said it doesn't really expire I can use it till it is gone. Is this your experience?

Last blood sugar reading was:

6/27/2011 been on 4 units twice a day for two weeks

4 units of insulin and 1/2 can of W/D at 6:05
8:30 406
10:40 469
12:30 559
2:30 492
4:00 502

today 7/6/2011 5 units of insulin and 1/2 can of W/D at 6:05

8:13 304
10:09 338
12:06 416
2:20 497
4:10 511

She had been on the Lysodern (sp) for 3 days over the weekend. Until we get her other test results he isn't sure if it is the 5 units of insulin or if the Lysodern made an impact on her BG so we are staying the course.

He is adamant that hers was not a false positive for cushings and he really thinks we need to treat her cushings to help with the insulin working for the diabetes.

As cloudy as Jenny's eyes look he was surprised at the amount of sight she has left still. He was surprised that she recognized him when he stopped in to check on her today. We have been really lucky with her vision hanging in there.

Despite some of the conflicting info from him vs. here I'm still pretty darned happy about her Curve today. I spent 4 hours driving back and forth so will tackle her home readings tomorrow. Obviously we need to do about 18 hours of a curve to see what is going on with her.

yay. Judi

[CarolW]

Re: Question about protein in diets

Yes; YAY! Looks as though Jenny is coming along.

VERY interesting thought from your vet about the possible duration of a single shot of insulin. Guess you're right about continuing a curve for some 18 hours.

I don't think your vet is right about the insulin and expiry dates. My vet taught me that insulin molecules are quite delicate. It's easy to break them down by jarring them too much (as in, dropping the vial on a hard surface - like the floor). Every time you puncture the rubber stopper on the vial, and inject air, you get a slight contamination. Every time you mix the insulin (say, rolling it between your palms,) you jar the molecules just a bit.

Also, we just can't mix perfectly, and the insulin may change slightly in strength after a time, in what remains in the vial.

My vet suggested using a vial for five weeks, and then retiring it. YIKES! BIG waste - maybe a third of the vial, each time! She DID say I could try using it for six weeks, and let Kumbi's BGs tell me if it was losing potency. It would probably usually have been okay to use it for six weeks.

Once you're into testing, you'll be able to check for yourself.

You can STORE an unopened (un-punctured) vial of insulin till the expiry date on the label, or label-and-box. Once you open it, though, the count-down begins.

I used to use a fine marker to write on the box - date of purchase, date opened (punctured for the first time), and date retired (set aside - in the fridge! - as a spare in case of emergency). I'd also mark the date opened and the date retired on the label on the vial itself. Very useful! I used a Sharpie pen (permanent marker). Lovely things, those are!

I think you're getting generally good news on Jenny; I'm really pleased for you and her.

Cheering you on!
Wed, 6 Jul 2011 19:49:19 (PDT)

[Abby's Mom]

Re: Question about protein in diets

That is wonderful news regarding Jenny! In my particular case, the vet states that Abby is definitely a Cushing's dog, but with no clinical symptoms, I am having a hard time going forward with the treatment. I will encourage another blood test, to see if her ALT and ALK's are lowered after giving her Milk Thistle and Dandelion. But those high readings indicate an enlarged liver, and her not being regulated could have an affect on the high readings, and the enlarged liver.

Since I have been home testings, thanks to all of these wonderful people out here, Abby's readings have been in the 200's for the highs and we were as low as 88 today. I'm relatively pleased with the numbers, but we will hold steady to see how this goes for a while.

I agree with Carol, as I started to see a rise in Abby's numbers when my bottle of insulin (Humulin N) was opened for about 6 weeks. Once I opened another bottle, I started to see good numbers. When I asked my vet about Insulin expiring, she confessed that she didn't know, but stated that I should ask the pharmacy. Based upon my experiences, the insulin does lose its potency.

Again great news....Abby and I send our best to you and Jenny.

[Judi]

Re: Question about protein in diets

Thanks Barb and Carol. I don't think I will go past 6 weeks with a bottle of insulin either. I know Jess Girl also stated she can see a change with a new bottle.

Thanks again for the encouragement!

Abby's #'s look really good even with no Cushing's treatments. Thank goodness she responds to the insulin. I need to start Jenny's liver medicine that included milk thistle again. We took a break with everything else going on.

Yes Carol the vet said he didn't see how the 6am insulin would have affected her 8am reading so quickly so that is his theory. Definitely need some longer curves.

[Judi]

Re: Question about protein in diets

I posted on the Cushings forum. Her latest ACTH test came back at 4.9 in the post test vs. 26 on the initial. The vet is sure it is from her 3 days of Lysodern and feels that with her other symptoms she is definitely a dog with Cushings.

He wants her to take 1/4 tablet once a week of the Lysodern as maintenance and bump the insulin up to 6 units 2x day, keeping an eye out for lows.

I am hesitating as even he was stunned that she would react so quickly to 3 days of medication. I will increase the insulin. Will probably wait 7-10 days and ask for a re-test of the ACTH with no additional medication.

very unsure of myself right now. my husband wants me to listen to the vet.

Judi

[Abby's Mom]

Re: Question about protein in diets

I would be interested to see what the members say on the Cushing site, but I would be suspicious with the Lysodern affecting Jenny so quickly.

You sometimes question why you need to question a vet!!

[Judi]

Re: Question about protein in diets

high cholesterol question and too many vets!

recap: Jenny, my poodle still has unregulated BG. She is in the 400-500's and has started a maintenance dose of Lysodern for her Cushings as well as 6 units twice a day of insulin. Her #'s just started to go down so we are hoping her next curve late this week or early next week will show more improvement.

Her cholesterol and triglycerides are high. I haven't seen it but the cholesterol is over 300 and the triglycerides are over 1200

She has an appointment with her eye doctor this Friday and the vet tech from that office just called me asking about her diet. She eats 1/2 can of W/D twice a day per her vet's instructions. She gets 1/2 of a freeze dried liver treat when I leave the house.

That is it.

Have most of you seen a decrease in these numbers once the blood sugar gets regulated? At the last curve the vet told me Jenny's blood resembled a vanilla milkshake.

I think I'm feeling defensive but I don't know what else to do. They told me to cut out the liver treats but it is our routine when I leave the house. I use scissors to cut tiny tiny pieces.

I guess I'm just venting. thanks, Judi