Relion/Walmart insulin and much more- HELP needed

[Lauren]

We have a small 19 yo chi who was dxed last year and has been in good control on 2 units/twice daily. Was on Walgreens insulin until just recently.

Last month we agreed to take in an 11 yo lhasa mix from a disabled owner w/lots of drinking/peeing, 4+ urine ketones, 4+ urine glucose, blood glucose at vet was 400.
His name is Willie. Vet suggested we start him on 2 units/twice daily. We bought Relion Novolin to help with costs and switched the chi over as well as his bottle was almost empty ( yes we used it for 6 months or so).
Willie has been to the vet weekly for retesting with BGs of 500-600 consistently. Each time we raised his insulin dose some.
He is now on 4 units/twice daily.
Last glucose at vet was yesterday morning = 567.
We're not seeing significant drinking/peeing, accidents in house have disappeared. No ketones in urine but tons of glucose in urine of course.

The vets are saying he has insulin resistance - he weighs 17 lbs. Currently on 8 units/day. I saw that Dr Petersen writing where he informed another vet that resistance was above 2.2 U/kg and followed the poster here...

Yesterday I asked for thyroid testing, a panel was drawn and sent to Michigan State U. Willie had a low dose dex test done yesterday but his skin is normal from my perspective.
He is having some hair loss on his upper shoulder area just above where I am doing the insulin injections - has anyone seen this from injections?

Willie also had a chem panel drawn yesterday to get liver function numbers.

Still waiting on all results.

Right now I am wondering how many dog owners are seeing difference between the expensive insulin at Walgreens versus the wonderfully less expensive at Walmart.

You guys are the experts. From my perspective, Willie has been running a 500 or higher BG for about a month now and I am desperate to save his eyes and kidneys.
Though he has no ketones in his urine anymore...so bizarre.

Thanks for any feedback and help for Willie.

[Auddog]

Hi there,
Welcome to the forum! Bless you for taking in another sugar baby along with your pup

I'm sorry that I can't be much help because my dog was started on the Walmart Relion / Novolin brand insulin and we were able to achieve good regulation on that. I never tried him on insulin from any other pharmacies.

I'm curious if you saw any numbers change in your other pup when you switched his/her insulin? I'm assuming the NPH from Walgreens is the Humulin brand? There are a number of threads on this page discussing the difference people have seen between the two brands:

http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18

From what I remember in reading a number of these threads is that some people see a slight difference and others don't. It's like we love to say here on the forum, every dog is different

As far as Willie being called insulin resistant, I don't think he's there yet. I've read that a pup is not considered insulin resistant until they are receiving 1 unit per pound per injection, so Willie has some room to increase his dose. Some dogs just require a more insulin than others, and that's okay. How long has Willie been on insulin? Was he just started when you agreed to bring him into your home? Regulation takes time, my boy's numbers were all over the place for the first 9 months after being diagnosed.

I'm also curious if you've considered home blood glucose testing? I honestly believe that home testing can help the regulation process go faster, and it's significantly less cost than having a vet's office do it.

Hope to hear from you soon! I'm sure others will be along to share their thought too (though it does get a little slow here on the weekends).

Again, Welcome to the forum!

Audrey

[CraigM]

Re: Relion/Walmart insulin and much more- HELP needed

Welcome!

Although every dog / situation is different, my Annie (15 year old, 18+ pound Lhasa Apso) is currently getting 9.5 - 10 units of Novolin-N twice a day. Years ago, the dose was 7.5 - 8 units, so her requirements have increased a little with age. Her food is different, so that might have required the dosage increase.

Home blood testing would probably make this progress much quicker.

Craig

[farrwf]

Re: Relion/Walmart insulin and much more- HELP needed

We bought Relion Novolin to help with costs and switched the chi over as well as his bottle was almost empty ( yes we used it for 6 months or so).

6 months from the same vial??? WOW, and it's still effective??

Willie has been to the vet weekly for retesting with BGs of 500-600 consistently. Each time we raised his insulin dose some.
He is now on 4 units/twice daily.
Last glucose at vet was yesterday morning = 567.
We're not seeing significant drinking/peeing, accidents in house have disappeared. No ketones in urine but tons of glucose in urine of course.
The vets are saying he has insulin resistance - he weighs 17 lbs.

He's nowhere near insulin resistance @ 4 Units / 2x a day for a 17# dog

Currently on 8 units/day. I saw that Dr Petersen writing where he informed another vet that resistance was above 2.2 U/kg and followed the poster here...

Yesterday I asked for thyroid testing, a panel was drawn and sent to Michigan State U. Willie had a low dose dex test done yesterday but his skin is normal from my perspective.
He is having some hair loss on his upper shoulder area just above where I am doing the insulin injections - has anyone seen this from injections?

Willie also had a chem panel drawn yesterday to get liver function numbers.

Still waiting on all results.

Right now I am wondering how many dog owners are seeing difference between the expensive insulin at Walgreens versus the wonderfully less expensive at Walmart.

The only difference between the Novolin at Walgreen's and the ReliOn Novolin at Walmart is the price, thanks to Walmart's position on nph insulin pricing. The product is the same.

I am desperate to save his eyes and kidneys.

Dogs react to diabetes much different than humans. Blindness from cataracts is a major concern, kidney problems aren't.

Thanks for any feedback and help for Willie.

KUDUS to you for taking in Willie, a homeless special needs senior pup, in addition to your 19 year old special needs guy.

[amydunn19]

Re: Relion/Walmart insulin and much more- HELP needed

The insulin is the same type and is a name brand - the contract with WalMart used to be Humulin N and it switched back to Novolin N. I much preferred Novolin - the duration was much better for Maggie and the bottle stayed fresher. I changed vials every month - the most I ever got out of a bottle was 6 weeks - her numbers kept inching up on me if I tried to stretch it out. I haven't heard of anyone getting 6 months out of a bottle.

[Eddie]

Re: Relion/Walmart insulin and much more- HELP needed

Some of us with bigger dogs can only dream of getting more than two weeks out of a bottle.......

But I have to say I also admire what you are doing with taking on two elderly diabetics - well done!

Antonia

[Lauren]

Re: Relion/Walmart insulin and much more- HELP needed

Forgive my newbie status.

I want to thank all of you for your replies!!

I moved Willie to 10 units/day and plan to move him to 12 in a few days.
Still no results from the testing but his improvement each day in energy and happiness has been good to see. And his urine glucose is dropping. Very good news for my husband and I to see.

Thanks especially for the info on insulin with the female 18 lb lhasa, I think it was, and the feedback that kidney damage was not as severe in dogs..

Today I purchased a glucometer, strips, etc and will be doing my own testing at home as soon as I have watched the videos.

I want to post again when I get some results, maybe in a few days...thanks so much!! So helpful to have this community of people to learn from.
Willie agrees! I wanted to post a pic of him but can't see a way to do it from here.

[CraigM]

Re: Relion/Walmart insulin and much more- HELP needed

Forgive my newbie status.

I want to thank all of you for your replies!!

I moved Willie to 10 units/day and plan to move him to 12 in a few days.
Still no results from the testing but his improvement each day in energy and happiness has been good to see. And his urine glucose is dropping. Very good news for my husband and I to see.

Thanks especially for the info on insulin with the female 18 lb lhasa, I think it was, and the feedback that kidney damage was not as severe in dogs..

Today I purchased a glucometer, strips, etc and will be doing my own testing at home as soon as I have watched the videos.

I want to post again when I get some results, maybe in a few days...thanks so much!! So helpful to have this community of people to learn from.
Willie agrees! I wanted to post a pic of him but can't see a way to do it from here.

I wouldn't increase the insulin dosage until you start using your meter.

What meter did you get? Possibly someone here has experience / recommendations for it.

About how much does Willie weigh?

Craig

[Lauren]

Re: Relion/Walmart insulin and much more- HELP needed

Willie weighs 17 pounds and I bought the Walmart stuff.

[farrwf]

Re: Relion/Walmart insulin and much more- HELP needed

Great, we'll be looking forward to following Willie's journey.

BTW, what's the 19 yo's name, and how much does he / she weigh & insulin dose?

[crose0056]

Re: Relion/Walmart insulin and much more- HELP needed

I am currently using novolin n from Walmart and the relion meter from them also. Have had great results. Now I need to know how often to test? Should it be once daily, twice daily? Also how often should I curve her?

[jesse girl]

Re: Relion/Walmart insulin and much more- HELP needed

I test before every dose of insulin i give jesse as a permanent part of her daily routine and sometimes a bit more if she is higher or lower . Of course if jesse is acting odd i will test her and sometimes she asks me to test her funny girl

during the regulation process a curve once a week is prudent to decide what you want to do on dosing.

Once regulation is achieved a curve may not be needed unless things get out of whack and that would be determined from the daily routine testing to catch a change in regulation .

[Eddie]

Re: Relion/Walmart insulin and much more- HELP needed

Our routine is to test before breakfast (and we tweak the insulin dose according to where his blood sugar is).

We then also test around 3pm to check that he is high enough to last until teatime. He tends to drop quite sharply in the later afternoon so sometimes he gets a little snack to prop up his sugar level so we know he will then last until tea around 6.30pm. He usually gets most exercise late afternoon so it is easy for his levels to drop low.

We rarely do curves these days (diagnosed more than 4 years ago) but they are very useful in the earlier days to learn what your dog's pattern is. Curves taught us that our dog can drop down very quickly in the late afternoon, especially with some activity.

If anything seems to be a bit unusual then we do additional tests.

Antonia

[Lauren]

Re: Relion/Walmart insulin and much more- HELP needed

Great, we'll be looking forward to following Willie's journey.

BTW, what's the 19 yo's name, and how much does he / she weigh & insulin dose?

Pokes (unfortunate choice of name when we adopted him from a shelter at age 13) weighs 6-7 lbs, has been diabetic since last fall and is recently blind- vet says cataracts. He gets 2 units/twice a day and has always had great numbers.
Between 100-150 no matter when we have him tested. We thought diabetes was a piece of cake with dogs because of Pokes.

Though checking his blood sugar will be very interesting....

[farrwf]

Re: Relion/Walmart insulin and much more- HELP needed

Reminds me of another pooch I came across years ago. In fact, it was shortly after I adopted Otis. We were in an upscale "pet paraphernalia" shop looking for "Pug stuff".

There was a very large, "laid back" Golden Retriever lying on the floor. Well, the shop owner asked about Otis and as soon as she found out Otis was a virile and potent 6 month old male Pug, ... the first words she had were "You're gonna have him "fixed", aren't you?". She continued, ... "We had Woody "fixed" when he was 6 months old." I told her I would never do that to Otis, and couldn't believe she named her Golden "Woody" after disabling him. ... received a disapproving look from her.