Sweet Pippa's journey has ended... August 19, 2018

[jenny]

Re: Pippas new journey

Hi everyone, Day 26 here and as its weekend another curve to assess pippa since increasing her canninsulin to 6.2u bd, (on Tuesday this week). Shes had a really big drop after a very stable start to the day. My dogs are always walked aroung 3/5 pm ish, normally an hours walk , often with doggy friends. Todays walk was very nornal , nothing exciting happened and Pippa seemed fine through out. I did not give her a snack or biccy before as her level had been stable ( bit high?) for hours before. I am really unsure of the snacking , how much and what type. I know Patty suggested this but I didnt want to make too many changes at once Her two meals have been unchanged all week from the previous weeks, only change increase of insulin by 0.2u from Tues.

Her is todays curve so far:
Fasting 13.0/ 236
2 hours post 11.9/ 217
4 hours post 16.6/ 302
6 hours post 16.6/ 302
7 hours post 16.3/ 297
8.25 post 16.7/ 304 ( just pre walk)
10 hours post 4.4/ 80 ! ( immediatley post walk) ( gave 5 small puppy biccys)

I will test her at 11 hours and pre feeding.

That low has really shaken me. She was acting normal and loved her walk. How could the previous 4 readings be so stable and then she drops like that???

Confused. Any advice welcome.

Jen x

I will tests again in

[jesse girl]

Re: Pippas new journey

you may have a couple things going on the first and for most is the walk

our babies can drop substantially during it accelerates metabolism and moves insulin it appears much faster causing these big drops

another thought is pippa may have a mountain type curve where she drops late in the cycle where the lowest number is at fasting before meal and insulin which there is nothing wrong with that some prefer it

but if insulin is strongest at the end and you are walking when this is occurring the drop could be severe as you have seen with the 80

it is a learning experience for the body and how to utilize this new reality

when my jesse dropped during walks i gave her a teaspoon of honey wright before we left it usually kept her stable between a half an hour and thats it out of her system no impact for the rest of the day i prefer the honey due to the health benefits that comes with it

it rare for jesse to drop during exercise anymore her body adapted because she has the same type at the same time and amount day in day out

so you may have to give a boost before walk till the body adapts overtime

finding the best time to walk when insulin doesnt seem to have such an impact may help and your testing will help with that

my jesse gets allot of exercise so it is possible but we had to pay attention and determine what is appropriate to keep them safe

the numbers looked very flat that is very good the walk gave an artificial response which did not follow the normal pattern

good job be careful of exercise but dont eliminate it there are thing to keep pippa safe

[jenny]

Re: Pippas new journey

Thanks Jesse, for your speedy reply, makes sense.

I think your right the walk is probably the main problem at moment.
As i work full time i cannot begin to think of changing the walk time, and to be honest my two dogs are in such a set routine with walks and being left alone during the day when we are at work it would confuse them. They both love their walks and friends so much ( and lets face it its good for me too).

So, cant change the time.....gotta work with it better.

I like the idea of a sugar treat pre walk, to get out of her system by post walk. I love honey myself, never tried dogs with it, how much do you think a 9.5kg dog should have? The treats i have are generally low cal, high protein, not ideal for preventing walkies hypos i dont think. Pippa is currently having 520 kcals in her meals ( split into two, 12 hrs appart). Occasional fish treats, chicken breast or tiny puppy biccys as good dog rewards

I dont really understand the different curve terminolgy yet. How is her curve moutain shaped? Is there anywhere I could look at pictures of dog curves to understand this better.

She did a simmilar drop at 9 ish hours post insulin last curve ( monday- holiday in UK), and her walk was involved then too, but not as extreeme- 126 points, as todays drop ( 224 points). Should i consider this 9 hour point her insulin nadir?????

Just as follow on her today curve:
11 hour post bg was 12.5mmols/ 228
12 hour fasting again was 13.9mmols / 253

She has now been fed and watered! And is less phased than me of the low reading.

With the whole curve now should I be thinking, in anyones valued opinion, of an increase in insulin again this week ? another 0.2u canninsulin with definate snacks (????how much though) before walks.

Many many thanks, dont know where I'd be without you. Please please give me any ideas.

XX Jen and Pippa.

[jesse girl]

Re: Pippas new journey

jesse is a 26 pound beagle and she had a whole teaspoon of honey before walk i would start with a half teaspoon test before walk but dont test after giving honey might get a false high on the meter adjust more or less honey kind of just like making insulin adjustments raising and lowering

i might hold off on raising the dose until you have a bit better control of the drop during walk since it is a daily routine and more insulin can accelerate that drop once thats done and the numbers are stable i see no reason you cant raise a bit

[Patty]

Re: Pippas new journey

I agree with Jesse girl.

As far as the mountain shape, this is the term we use when blood sugar climbs for part of the day then drops back down toward shot time. If you were to plot the numbers on a graph and connect them, it would look like a mountain.

[jenny]

Re: Pippas new journey

Thanks Jesse and Patty. I am going to take your advice and stick at currrent canninsulin dose of 6.2u bd this week and am going to be tweeking pippas food a bit.

I think i will increase the High Oats part of food to 35g (? for slower energy release) reduce slightly the normal kibble and increase slightly the pate. This should give her similar daily cals ( now 532/ prev 525) . I will also be giving the half teaspoon honey on a biccy pre walk. I would like eventually to move her over to all high oats but have been told to go slow on this too.

Its sooooo complicated. I do need to get her weight checked this week too, been 2 weeks now since she was weighed, I think shes stable but must check.

I am so pleased that she is eating her breakfast better now, by puting a splash of hot water on her kibble. Still not too thrilled by the jabs, but I have now got shorter needles by using 100u syringes and converting to 40u doses. This means she is having 6.2 units of canninsulin via a 100u syringe filled to 15.5 units. Thanks for your help with this Allison and Alfie, I have the convertion chart laminated on my fridge! It actually makes it easier for me as i am now using different syringes for Pippa and Basil and less likely to get their jabs mixed up ( he is still on 5u in the old syringes).

Husband has had an idea too! When we were training for a half marathon few years ago we would have a supply of jelly babys (20 calories each) for instant energy when struggling. He wonders if Pippa woud eat one of these on a longer walk to keep her sugar up ( easier to carry than honey). George and Pippa used to come on runs of upto 6 miles with us when we were training and Pippa managed fine ( better than the lab!). No way are we thinking of doing this again, all too old now.

I did a search on "moutain curves" and see that Jim has experienced these and seems to be reasonably happy. Must read his and spirits thread through.And still struggling to understand the different curves , what other types are there and what are the best to be aiming for ( flattest possible i would think) .

Pippas fasting sugar this am is 14.4/ 262. Glad that it hasnt spiked up after her low yesterday.

Have a lovely sunday everyone when you all wake up!

Jen x

[eileen]

Re: Pippas new journey

Husband has had an idea too! When we were training for a half marathon few years ago we would have a supply of jelly babys (20 calories each) for instant energy when struggling. He wonders if Pippa woud eat one of these on a longer walk to keep her sugar up ( easier to carry than honey). George and Pippa used to come on runs of upto 6 miles with us when we were training and Pippa managed fine ( better than the lab!). No way are we thinking of doing this again, all too old now.

Jen x

Goodness Jenny, you make me feel exercised, energized and worn out ;-)

The only drawback that could come from not carrying honey/karo is if Pippa were to ever go so low that she could not swallow the jelly babys.
The honey/karo can be rubbed on the gums where it is then quickly absorbed to bring the glucose level up.

A tip...fast food restaurantes carry the little honey packets that can be easily carried in a pocket.
Also, some carry a tube of frosting (those used for cake decorating), not as ideal as the honey but can help if needed.

So glad to read that the eating issue is resolved.

[jenny]

Re: Pippas new journey

Good thinking Eileen, will find some of those mini honey packs for my dog walking bag.

Can you believe, I even saw some icing (frosting) in small tubes today in local supermarket but decided against them as they had glitter in them! That would be a strange conversation to have with folk if I ever needed to use them!

I think Im right in thinking Mildreds no longer here. So very sorry. Looks like you did marvelously with her for a long long time! Her picture is gorgeous. You all have such wisdom and experience ( and a diabetic mog too like me!) Please pop by anytime and all comments greatfully received.

[eileen]

Re: Pippas new journey

Good thinking Eileen, will find some of those mini honey packs for my dog walking bag.

Can you believe, I even saw some icing (frosting) in small tubes today in local supermarket but decided against them as they had glitter in them! That would be a strange conversation to have with folk if I ever needed to use them!

I think Im right in thinking Mildreds no longer here. So very sorry. Looks like you did marvelously with her for a long long time! Her picture is gorgeous. You all have such wisdom and experience ( and a diabetic mog too like me!) Please pop by anytime and all comments greatfully received.

Chuckling as I picture that scenario...a sparkly tongue/mouth in the midst of an emergency.

You are correct, I lost Mildred this past January after living about 7.5 months from the date of being dx with bladder cancer (last May 14).
I just haven't been able to bring myself to add it into my signature line...

Thank you for your sweet comments.

[k9diabetes]

Re: Pippas new journey

I actually LOVE mountain curves. They are great for folks who work away from home during the day because you know that the meal-time blood sugar is about the lowest it will be all day.

But the drop definitely doesn't go well with Pippa's walk and she probably will need a readily digestible snack to keep her blood sugar level.

You're right - the shape of the curve isn't nearly as important as the difference between the highest and lowest blood sugar. The flatter the curve is, the closer you can come to normal blood sugar and really tight regulation of the diabetes. Our dogs curve had a drop and a rise and a drop.

This is an example of the shape of Chris' curve in 2006.




Not sure what name to give it! Swayback camel?!?!?

Natalie

[jenny]

Re: Pippa: Query on eye supplements please

Hi everyone,
and thanks Patty for explaining the curves again, I think i am getting it and pictures help me!

Pippas fine, still on 6.2u canninsulin bd and now on full burns food , high oats 45g and pate 30g. As we have been tweaking her over to all the burns food I am not doing a curve this weekend but waiting till next.

Her fasting blood today was 13.7 mmols / 249
pre walk 4pm 10.9/ 198
Gonna give her 5 small biccys pre walk to cover any drops and will carry honey in the sweetest little pot I found today!

My question today, please and sorry for being a pain, is about eye supplements , which I have been trying to research this weekend but am getting confused. I have read about occu glo, but I dont think its available in the UK and dont know if vets can|(or will) prescribe it. Is it used widely in the States for cataract prevention? Or are there any other supplemets people are giving their dogs to try and avoid cataracts? I think it was mentioned that Craig may be knowledgeable on this, but Im sure others have experience too. Pippa is not on any supplemets at present, would omega salmon oil be suitable ( ? omega 3 and 6) and I have also heard about bilberry and luetin(?sp) and maybe vitamin e.

Pippa is 9.4 kg and I would be really worried about doses for her and not overdoing it.

As usual any views greatfully received.

BTW went to register both dogs at new yet this week. He seems really nice, listens well and coped with my million and one questions. He is happy for me to be testing pippa myself and seemed to be on my wave lenght. Sorted!

Hugs, Jen x

[CraigM]

Re: Pippas new journey

You probably know as much as I about eye supplements. Besides, Annie has had both cateracts and glaucoma, so what do I know?

I've been giving fish oil for several years which I think most everyone says is ok. A month or two ago we started giving vitamin c & e. there were questions from other forum members about the correct amount of these vitamins. I'm not at home and don't remember how Annie is getting, I'll post that in a few hours after I get back home. Fish oil at least, I poke open a 1000 capsule and squirt it on her food.

[jenny]

Re: Pippas new journey

Craig thanks, I know that you know more than me, I really do. . Im on such a huge learning curve its unreal. Thank you for answering when you are out and about.

You all have so much experience and knowledge, I feel that Im trying to do a crash course of researching this or that every spare moment. Its only been 4 weeks since pippa was diagnosed and I dont now where I would have been if wern't for this forum and the friendly supportive advice. I do suspect that your vets ( not every vet , I know as in UK ) and knowledge (K9 forum and website rocks, and web published pharmaceutical information) in the USA are advanced of ours in the UK. When you say fish oil would cod liver oil be the same as salmon oil? As the latter is what Ive seen on line available in UK but marketed for joint and coat issues ( eyes are not mentioned).

Im so sorry for Annies eye problems and I have kindof accepted Pippa will likely have problems too either sooner or later in the future. I just want to try to do everything I can to try and optimise her.

Today on her walk on the beach she was so happy, charging about, chasing gulls, woofing at distant dogs, in and out the sea, digging etc. Husband and me couldnt imagine her not being able to see and enjoy life as much as she did today

[CraigM]

Re: Pippas new journey

We are still at the mall! Linda shops, while I sit at a coffee shop and play with my iPhone. Small screen is terrible to read / type but better than actually shopping!

This link tells a little about the good in fish oil (omega-3):

http://www.omegavia.com/fish-oil-eye-health/

[CraigM]

Re: Pippas new journey

OK, back home where I can see the screen & keyboard!

This is what Annie's eye vet recommended, others had concern about the amount of the vitamin C:

Vitamin C ; 500mg tab cut in half, 1/2 tab with each meal (total 500mg a day)
Vitamin E ; 400IU, one capsule per day
fish oil ; 1000 - 1200mg capsule, one per day

Some thought this might be too much vitamin C, so I'm actually cutting the tablet into fourths, 250mg per day. I crumble it, and put it into her food.

The vitamin E is a very small capsule that I put whole into her meal. She just swallows it along with her meal!

Fish oil is a larger capsule, so I puncture it with the used lancet and squirt it into her food. I might see if she will swallow it whole, like the vitamin E, because she gets some of the fish oil in her beard and really smells after just a few days. Guess we could try washing her face after the meal, but THAT would probably be a fight!

Although Annie is blind, or nearly blind, she still does things. She will chase a ball thrown down the short hallway. She might not find it right away, but seems to enjoy hunting for it! Most of the time you wouldn't know she had sight problems.