Mini Schnauzer Gretel

[Tikobird]

Yea Caroline!

[Margaret Boyle]

Originally Posted by CoolGram

Thank you everyone, for the pats on the back! I know I could never have done it without your steadfast encouragement and support. I must admit, I'm feeling quite happy with myself - kind of feel like I've just been admitted into a club I've been wanting to join for a long time.

Carolyn

Well done Carolyn you will be an expert in no time
Marg

[diggydog]

Congratulations Caroline - its an amazing feeling when you get that first reading!
Be proud of yourself as we all are

[CoolGram]

Hello everyone!

I have a situation that I've been dealing with the last few weeks and I'm at a point where I'm not sure what to do about it. As anyone who's been following my recent posts will know, I've been having some problems with Gretel not wanting to eat her morning meal. This never happens with her evening feeding, only in the morning. She doesn't seem ill, or listless or show any signs at all that something isn't right - she just doesn't seem interested. She sniffs her food, maybe takes a bite or two, then walks away from it. The two times I called the vet, she told me to give her the full dose of insulin anyway (which I really wasn't comfortable with). The vet felt that Gretel's blood sugar might be quite high and made her less hungry. She thought that once the insulin started to bring the BG down, she would then be hungry enough to eat.

Well, I followed her advice both times and watched Gretel closely for any signs of low BG, but she seemed fine, and every time this has happened, she eventually did eat all her food if I left it down for an hour or two.

Yesterday she was at the vet for a curve, and they got her lowest reading since she was diagnosed, and that was 137 at approx. two hours following her insulin. The next reading was 202 at 4-1/2 hrs. after insulin, and the last one they did, approx. 7-1/2 hrs. after insulin was 360.

When I saw that 137, I knew that I would never ever again give her a full load of insulin on NO food. Now, I haven't spoken to our vet yet, because she was off yesterday but she'll be calling me on Tuesday. The other vet told me to keep her insulin dose as is until I speak to our reg. vet.

The dilema I have is - if I wait until she decides to eat before I give her the insulin, then her schedule is completely thrown off. But if I reduce the insulin and then an hour later she decides to eat, then she hasn't gotten enough insulin to balance the food.

How much insulin do you think it would be safe for me to give her IF she doesn't eat? And if I give her a reduced amount of insulin, should I take away her food and not feed her till the evening meal, or should I give her an hour or so to eat it, and if she does eat it later, should I then give her the balance of her insulin or what? She's got me so confused I don't know what to do. There just doesn't seem to be a reason why some mornings she decides she's not that hungry.

Another question/observation. I didn't get to the pharmacy in time to pick up more of the short needle syringes, so yesterday morning (before she went to the vet), I used the regular length needle, and that's when she had her lowest reading. Do you think the needle length could have possibly made a difference? Could it be that the short needle wasn't getting the insulin exactly where it needed to go? Another possibility could be that she's switching to a different dog food. She's still getting half w/d and the other half Royal Canin (the new one). So don't know if that would have already started to effect her BG or not.

And also - in all of her curves, it appears that her lowest reading is the first one they take, about 2 hrs. after insulin. Then it just goes steadily up from there. Does anyone think that she needs insulin more than twice a day?

I'm sure someone will point out, and I'm already planning to do it, but that is to get a BG reading BEFORE she eats her morning meal just to get an idea as to how high her BG is, because I have no idea how high it goes at it's highest. I'm really kind of afraid to find out, but I know it will be useful information to have.

Sorry for the length of this post - but gee, it's always something.

As always, thanks to all of you who help me yet again.

Carolyn

[peggy0]

Hi Carolyn

My springer pulls the 'i dont want to eat breakfast routine' and i leave her food down for 15 minutes. If she doesn't eat it, I pick it up and she gets nothing until her next meal. If she doesn't eat, I'd give her 1/2 her insulin and then not feed her until the next meal. Try it a few times and see if she gets back to eating in the am. If you are switching foods, it would be hard to say if its affecting her levels yet. I would finish the switch and do another curve and we'll see where she is. I don't believe the different size needle would have an impact on her levels, but I'll leave that for the experts to comment on I never tried different needle lengths. I did rotate where I gave Forbin his shots and this definately had an affect on his levels. I think you need to find the correct balance in food and dosage before I would consider additional insulin. Given the 167, you do have a little bit of room to increase the dosage, but the 300+ in the afternoon, tells me the food is lasting longer than the insulin.

I always tested Forbin before I gave his shots. Now that you are a pro at testing, you can take it right before she eats so you know her fasting level. i would take it 2 hours later then 6 hours then again before she has her evening meal. You need to see the pattern before you start adjusting food or dosage

Forbins BGs were higher on Royal Canin. I had him on it for a few weeks and then switched to Blue Buffalo. Has she been on Royal Canin before?

Bottom line is, i would not give her a full dose and then she if she will eat. Its' dangerous. If you test her before both shots, you have the peace of mind of knowing where her BGs are. When dogs are having medical procedures, the doctors typically tell you not to feed them and give them 1/2 their insulin dosage. I did this for Forbin many times with no issues at all, and his BG levels were actually very good most of the day.

I had to switch Forbins food 3 times before i liked his curve. I have spreadsheets of dog food ingredients and % of protein, carbs etc. It takes a lot of work to get the balance right and every dog is different, so you have to have patience and be consistent while you're trying to figure it out Its hard, I know, but eventually it all comes together. we'll be here for you !!

[eileen]

Carolyn,

I also did as Peggy when Mildred went thru her long spell of not wanting to eat breakfast.

I would give her 20 minutes to eat, if she did not I would pick up her food and give her a reduced amount of insulin.
I gave 1/3 of her normal dose without any food in her stomach.

I did not place the food back down until it was dinner time.

Since I always test the fastings I knew where her bgs were before giving the reduced amount of insulin. As Peggy's Forbin, Mildred would most often remain in a decent range for the remainder of the day.

I also agree that the site in which you inject plays a big roll in the absorption of the insulin.

[CoolGram]

Thanks Peggy & Eileen for responding.

Peggy, her low reading was 137, not 167, and that's the lowest it's ever been since she was diagnosed. I do rotate the injection site. In the morning I inject somewhere on the right side, and in the evening I inject on the left side, and I usually inject in an area that would, say, be covered by a saddle if she were wearing one. I usually do not inject into the scruff of her neck.

Another problem with her deciding not to eat is that I have put medication in her food, so if she doesn't eat, then she doesn't get that either. I give her a fish oil capsule (I puncture it and squeeze the oil on her food), and I mix the Tricitrate solution with about 1/4 cup of water and add that to the food. It would be too much to draw up into a medicine syringe and squirt it directly into her mouth. The same thing goes into her evening meal and there's never an issue with that one for some reason.

She's never been on Royal Canin before but her BG sure wasn't coming down much on the w/d. It's difficult to figure out the right thing to feed her because of her bladder stone issue, which really complicates things. I've read a lot about the Blue Buffalo and would love to give it a try but don't think it's right for her. I even wrote the BB company and explained Gretel's different health issues and they actually told me that she would be better off on a perscription diet. I thought that was really terrific of them to tell me that, knowing that they would be losing a potential customer. Tells me they were more interested in the dog - how refreshing. Ought to make those of you who feed your dogs BB pretty good about the company.

I had mentioned to the vet several weeks ago that I had switched to the shorter needle and wondered if this might be a reason for her numbers not coming down. She did seem a little skeptical, although in the end she said she doubted it would make a difference as long as I knew for sure that the insulin was getting in under the fat layer.

As you can see, I'm just grasping at straws here. I had hoped that after 6 or 7 months, things would be getting a bit easier, but Gretel keeps throwing me curve balls.

I will follow the advice you both gave about picking up her food after a certain amount of time and reducing the amount of insulin. I definitely don't want her to think I'm going to jump through hoops every morning to get her to eat, because it will quickly become a habit. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks again!
Carolyn

[k9diabetes]

I do think the needle length could be affecting where the insulin is being deposited. She may have "better" access to it with the long needles because it's more subQ. We used the short ones with Chris but he also had fairly thin skin so not difficult to get down below it.

One can typically give between 1/4 and 1/2 of the insulin without food. I like to start on the low end with 1/4 unit and see how it goes, especially if the blood sugar is on the low side. The higher the blood sugar is when you give insulin without food, the less risk there is the first time you do it. She apparently doesn't get a sharp drop from the insulin so that's helpful.

I think I too would take up the food for a few days and see if she gets the idea that its availability is limited.

It seems like a lot of dogs just aren't all that hungry in the morning.

Something like fish oil I don't think would be a big deal if you wound up having to skip a few morning doses to convince her to eat when the food's presented.

And if that doesn't do it, some enticements might be worthwhile. Maybe just a dash of some grated parmesan or a bit of grated cheese... something that smells really good that you can add in a very small quantity to encourage her to dig in.

You'll get it figured out - I have no doubt.

Natalie

[Noodle]

Belated congratulations on the successful home BG testing, Carolyn!!! I know you & Gretel have been working on this for a long time, so it must feel fantastic!! Way to go!!!