Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

[Lee04]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

Hi Jesse,
That makes sense. I understand that the smaller the spread from the high and low of the day, the better they probably feel, too.

I guess what I'm confused about is how the insulin really works. Lets say a dog has a fasting number of 150 and it's time for food/injection. I would think that with the meal, the numbers will rise from 150. Is that what most people experience with their dogs? If so, how many points is an average rise from food.

Or, if you are at fasting 150, give food/normal injection, do you expect that there will be a minimal rise and not much of a low, because you have good regulation?
So over the 12 hour period, you might rise 50 points for a couple of hours and then drop until the nadir. With tight regulation, do you expect to not go much lower than the 150 for the day? What if at 12 hours you are still dropping?

I know I'm rambling. I'm just confused by this latest twist.

I guess that is what was new the last couple of days and nothing different. I know their little bodies are always doing different things, so just being OCD....
Thanks for taking the time to educate me on all this. I really appreciate it!!

[Lee04]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

I keep reading and reading and it looks like some people give their pups a mid-day snack of some sort.

I wonder if a snack around the 9-10 hour when it appears the insulin is still strong and no glucose, if that would stop the drop and even him out until the 12 hour food/injection?

Is that why people give a mid-day snack other than snacks that don't effect BG (green beans, etc.)?

[k9diabetes]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

There isn't one way for the curves to look, one time for the lowest blood sugar to show up. Dogs are all unique in that regard in how they digest their food and absorb the insulin.

Some dogs' curves are "mountains" instead of "valleys" - with lowest blood sugar at meal and injection time.

So that means the best way to know what Dasani will do is to do a full 12-18 hour curve of readings starting with one before food and insulin in the morning and at least every 2 hours after that.

It's important when you do that not to intervene unless absolutely necessary - like the blood sugar is 70 or lower. Because once you intervene by giving some food, you can't see what the food and insulin would normally do.

If you do have to intervene because the blood sugar is quite low, then don't worry about the rest of the curve. Reduce the insulin dose, wait a few days, and do it again.

Does that make sense?

That way, you read your dog's "book" and can act appropriately based on the information.

I don't care what the curve looks like in terms of shape - valley, mountain, double-humped camel, roller coaster... all I care about is the highest and lowest readings being decent and not too far apart.

Natalie

[k9diabetes]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

Until you have done a curve (or two or three), you won't know whether a snack is a good idea. The curves will tell you. It can be a disaster if the blood sugar already goes high in the last half of the 12-hour time period.

Natalie

[CraigM]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

This is one of those "every pup / situation is different" sort of thing.

My Annie would ALWAYS rise after a meal and injection (using either Vetsulin or Novolin-N). The rise was almost always over 100 points within two hours. BUT other pups might see a much slower / less of a blood glucose increase.

I'm guessing it's mainly the pup's metabolism: how fast they digest their food and how fast they get the insulin working. Very individual thing. Then, the type of food probably makes a difference. Some foods may have more simple carbohydrates than others and cause a quicker blood glucose increase?

You really haven't seen low blood glucose readings yet. The 97 the other day is actually perfect, but most get worried (I know I did) and then over compensate by either feeding too much or withhold the insulin.

Did you do more tests today? I'm interested how the pre-dinner reading looks?

Craig

[Lee04]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

I decided since things seem a bit crazy, to do a curve today and we are getting close to the 12 hour mark and I really don't know how to handle it. These are firsts for Dasani to not be at his lowest point.

Fasting BG - 446 - 6:00am
Feed/give 8 units Vetsulin - 6:00am
8:30am - 394
10:00am - 322
12:00pm - 253
2:00pm - 163
4:00pm 120
5:30pm - 97

I just gave him a cracker and a green been after the 5:30pm reading. We went for our normal 15 min stroll at 7:30am and he has had many green beans today with all the testing.

Do I just keep testing and when he starts to go up, then feed and give Vetsulin? Shouldn't I wait to see some sort of rise before I do anything. I'm clueless

Natalie
Thanks so much for the reply. We have done a few curves since diagnosis, to end up where we are, and we were doing well, with the advise of an internal medicine vet. The other afternoon he started drinking and needing to go outside to pee for long durations, so I did a quick test and he was 575, which we'd not seen in awhile!!!

So, the next day, I did a 12 hour curve (see quote above), with no intervention and then panicked at the BG of 97 a half hour before the next feed/injection. Since then, I've tested like a mad woman, and made the start of curves useless because I have intervened trying out the snack theory.

The lows at time of feeding are new and I'm scared of them. I then realize how little I know and understand of this disease. If injected insulin brings a dogs BG down from say 400 at feeding to 150 eight hours later, then what the heck happens when you start out at 97 with food/insulin. If it were to bring the BG down 300 points, you're in trouble. This is what I don't understand...well I don't understand a lot! Ha!

Thanks again for your reply and advice. I do need to do the 18 hour curve and be brave if I see the lower numbers and just wait...

[Lee04]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

This is one of those "every pup / situation is different" sort of thing.

My Annie would ALWAYS rise after a meal and injection (using either Vetsulin or Novolin-N). The rise was almost always over 100 points within two hours. BUT other pups might see a much slower / less of a blood glucose increase.

I'm guessing it's mainly the pup's metabolism: how fast they digest their food and how fast they get the insulin working. Very individual thing. Then, the type of food probably makes a difference. Some foods may have more simple carbohydrates than others and cause a quicker blood glucose increase?

You really haven't seen low blood glucose readings yet. The 97 the other day is actually perfect, but most get worried (I know I did) and then over compensate by either feeding too much or withhold the insulin.

Did you do more tests today? I'm interested how the pre-dinner reading looks?

Craig

Hi Craig,
Thanks so much for your reply. I have done some more testing and now running through all my strips! I can't stop the madness, now that this issue has been discovered. Here are today's numbers which started off bad due to me giving food as a reaction to my fear.
Fasting BG 496 - 6:50am
Feed /Inject 8 units Vetsulin @ 7:00am
9:40am BG 417
11:00am BG 306
2:00pm BG 265
3:00pm BG 191
4:30pm BG 119 (felt like headed towards yesterdays 97, so gave a snack)
5:00pm BG 143 (1/2 cracker after reading)
6:00pm BG 161 (1/2 cracker after coming in from the yard @5:45)
6:45pm BG 180
Feed/Inject 8 units Vetsulin @6:50pm
8:50pm BG 135 (had a ride in the car and a small walk at 7:30pm)
9:35pm BG 152

Just now he is acting like he wants to go on a walk and eat.....

These numbers scare me when the Vetsulin drops him from such highs. Why wouldn't it do the same now?

Again, thanks for any thoughts you might have.

[amydunn19]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

The numbers you are getting that are scaring you are outstanding numbers! Instead of intervening too soon, keep going and see what happens. If you get below 70 or so, then intervene. It is the only way to see how low they actually will go.

The curves are normal for your dog. I have heard of vets that try to change the curve to be a certain way, but if you can keep the dog in a good range most of the day, I call that success. This disease is so individual and you can't change the way your dog responds to insulin - you can change other aspects to try to manage those numbers.

[CraigM]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

Pretty nice!

I would personally do as Amy suggests, but you have to have confidence. Or, maybe drop another ½ unit so that you might not have to add the crackers?

Just have FUN with it!

Craig

[jesse girl]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

what i have seen with jesse if she starts out lower she rises if higher she drops the higher she is the more she drops . the lower she is the higher the spike

i have a theory this creates the pattern of a curve for the day and it makes sense. as you talked about having a higher range so you have a buffer between low sugar with the excess sugar for insulin to work with

i believe this is how the body balances injected insulin

now if you follow the theory then you should be able to give a dose of insulin at say a 100 and your pup should rise for a bit and then drop into the next fasting creating a consistent curve and a mountain type

now the same can be true where you can start out say 300 and drop for say 6 hours and at that point the body says thats enough of that with a long prolonged drop and the numbers turn upward into next fasting which is a bowl or smiley face type

i have seen both sides of the coin with jesse thats the only explanation i can come up with . cant say food because i can see a drop or rise depending on the fasting number after eating

this is what drove me a bit crazy for sometime and realized the typical explanation did not seem to make sense with the numbers i was seeing

i believe dogs dont process sugar from digestion as humans. i think most of it gets stored in the body and used when needed . i think thats where the confusion comes in

for me when the light bulb went off it was comforting it wasnt anything i was doing its just how there bodies balance injected insulin with blood sugar

now on rare occasions my theory reversed itself . which can be risky at the lower side but i have a feel for this because the numbers are a bit odd on those days

for me i am willing to give up tight regulation because trying to keep her perfect can bring quite a bit of anxiety and frustration . so just like your pups blood sugar you have to balance your emotions also in this process

[Lee04]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

The numbers you are getting that are scaring you are outstanding numbers! Instead of intervening too soon, keep going and see what happens. If you get below 70 or so, then intervene. It is the only way to see how low they actually will go.

The curves are normal for your dog. I have heard of vets that try to change the curve to be a certain way, but if you can keep the dog in a good range most of the day, I call that success. This disease is so individual and you can't change the way your dog responds to insulin - you can change other aspects to try to manage those numbers.

Hi Amy,
Thanks so much for your help! I don't know what I would do right now without all of you and your knowledge. It's such a comfort to come here.

I need to do the 18 hour curve...with no intervention and then see what he is really doing. I just got really scared with the 103 low one day and 97 the next. Now after all of you have weighed in, I know it's not a dangerous number, but actually good!
Again, thank you and hope you and Maggie are doing well.

[Lee04]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

Pretty nice!

I would personally do as Amy suggests, but you have to have confidence. Or, maybe drop another ½ unit so that you might not have to add the crackers?

Just have FUN with it!

Craig

Hi Craig,

Have fun with it?! Ha!!! I'm OCD crazy with all the testing.

I know I need to get confidence that if I see the 70, as Natalie said, then I can intervene, otherwise do the 18 hour curve and get some whole data.
Thanks so much for your help!!
Hope you and Annie have a great day.

[Lee04]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

what i have seen with jesse if she starts out lower she rises if higher she drops the higher she is the more she drops . the lower she is the higher the spike

i have a theory this creates the pattern of a curve for the day and it makes sense. as you talked about having a higher range so you have a buffer between low sugar with the excess sugar for insulin to work with

i believe this is how the body balances injected insulin

now if you follow the theory then you should be able to give a dose of insulin at say a 100 and your pup should rise for a bit and then drop into the next fasting creating a consistent curve and a mountain type

now the same can be true where you can start out say 300 and drop for say 6 hours and at that point the body says thats enough of that with a long prolonged drop and the numbers turn upward into next fasting which is a bowl or smiley face type

i have seen both sides of the coin with jesse thats the only explanation i can come up with . cant say food because i can see a drop or rise depending on the fasting number after eating

this is what drove me a bit crazy for sometime and realized the typical explanation did not seem to make sense with the numbers i was seeing

i believe dogs dont process sugar from digestion as humans. i think most of it gets stored in the body and used when needed . i think thats where the confusion comes in

for me when the light bulb went off it was comforting it wasnt anything i was doing its just how there bodies balance injected insulin with blood sugar

now on rare occasions my theory reversed itself . which can be risky at the lower side but i have a feel for this because the numbers are a bit odd on those days

for me i am willing to give up tight regulation because trying to keep her perfect can bring quite a bit of anxiety and frustration . so just like your pups blood sugar you have to balance your emotions also in this process

Hi Jesse,
Thank you so much for all your help this weekend. I can't tell you how comforting your words have been, while I've been freaking out

Your theory makes sense about the dog digesting differently than humans. I'm feeling more confident today, thanks to all of you!

Not going to test today, except for before injections, unless I see some strange behavior. I'm lucky that I work from home and he is with me all day, so I can watch him.
Hope you and Jesse have a great day!

[Lee04]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

I wanted to give an update.

We ended up going to see the Internal Medicine Veterinarian again in late December, to review the BG numbers and get her opinion. She, like all of you ,was very pleased with the numbers!! We did blood work to check the liver enzymes to see if the 500mg Fish Oil a day is helping to lower them. She also ended up doing an ultrasound to look at his liver/pancreas, etc... and discovered a bladder stone.

We are doing nothing about the bladder stone, at this time, and all his other organs look good.

We went back today for a bloodwork (increased Fish Oil to 1000mg per day,December 2015) re-check to see if the liver enzymes will continue to drop. She also took a look at the bladder stone to see if it's changed in size and a urine culture to make sure there is no bacteria.

Hope all of you are doing well, we have been hanging in there an enjoying the spring weather.

[jesse girl]

Re: Dasani - Miniature Schnauzer - New to this

very nice update

cant ask for better than that especially for a schnauzer