Angel Penny 14 November 1998 – 18 January 2014

[Fiery_WA]

Dog's name,breed: Penny 14 now 15 in 16 days
Collie, Staffie, Kelpie X
Diagnosed 25 October 2013

Weight: Now 20.2 kg's

Diet:
Still trial and error, she only got home from the Vet yesterday
Madam Fusspot likes My Dog and Chunkers
Dry Food Purina for Mature Dogs

Insulin:
Caninsulin
12 Units
Once A Day

[k9diabetes]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

Hi,

Welcome to you and Penny!

I see she is currently on Caninsulin just once a day. I wanted to note that once daily dosing basically never works - probably 99% of dogs wind up needing insulin injections twice daily.

I actually wish Intervet would quit promoting Caninsulin/Vetsulin as once daily insulin and rather recommend a twice daily dose of no more than 1/5 unit per pound.

An unfortunate part of their once-daily dosing recommendation is that they suggest starting dogs on what is nearly always too much insulin.

At 20.2 kgs, that's about 44 pounds, so she's already been started at a little more than 1/4 of a unit per pound, not as high as some dogs I've seen but is too much insulin for many dogs. Our 62 pound dog needed only at 10 units of insulin given twice a day, for example.

In the U.S., Intervet reduced their recommended starting dose for dogs to be more in line with twice daily dosing but I don't think the UK / Canadian / Australian guidelines have been reduced.

Unfortunately, Intervet in the UK prohibits nonveterinarians from accessing their site. Even my old account there no longer works.

Here is the current U.S. dosing information:

http://www.vetsulin.com/vet/DosingOverview.aspx

Starting dose
In dogs, the initial recommended Vetsulin dose is 0.5 IU insulin/kg of body weight.

That would put Penny at 10 units at most - much better. I would consider 8-9 units if it was my dog to see how she responded to that amount before giving 10.

And I would go immediately to twice daily dosing.

For a good example of a dog who suffered under once daily dosing, read Chewy's story:
http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3990

Natalie

[Charlie's mom]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

We had to tempt with people food, so went with protein. Egg in the morning and a wee bit of chicken at night(and nuked it with a little water to make a fake broth)

[Fiery_WA]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

Hi,

Welcome to you and Penny!

I see she is currently on Caninsulin just once a day. I wanted to note that once daily dosing basically never works - probably 99% of dogs wind up needing insulin injections twice daily.

I actually wish Intervet would quit promoting Caninsulin/Vetsulin as once daily insulin and rather recommend a twice daily dose of no more than 1/5 unit per pound.

An unfortunate part of their once-daily dosing recommendation is that they suggest starting dogs on what is nearly always too much insulin.

At 20.2 kgs, that's about 44 pounds, so she's already been started at a little more than 1/4 of a unit per pound, not as high as some dogs I've seen but is too much insulin for many dogs. Our 62 pound dog needed only at 10 units of insulin given twice a day, for example.

In the U.S., Intervet reduced their recommended starting dose for dogs to be more in line with twice daily dosing but I don't think the UK / Canadian / Australian guidelines have been reduced.

Unfortunately, Intervet in the UK prohibits nonveterinarians from accessing their site. Even my old account there no longer works.

Here is the current U.S. dosing information:

http://www.vetsulin.com/vet/DosingOverview.aspx



That would put Penny at 10 units at most - much better. I would consider 8-9 units if it was my dog to see how she responded to that amount before giving 10.

And I would go immediately to twice daily dosing.

For a good example of a dog who suffered under once daily dosing, read Chewy's story:
http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3990

Natalie

Gday Natalie

Thank you for the welcome
I know nothing about Dog Diabetes, (I live in Australia), Penny spent three nights at the Vets, was put on a drip immediately, she was pretty much knocking on death's door.

I knew she had arthritis, and she was being given injections for it. she is classed as a medium sized dog, who I was told ideal weight should be 19kg's, if you have ever suffered a weight problem (I do) you know how hard it is to lose weight. Penny weighed in at 25kg's. Nothing I did seemed to get her weight down.

Then all of a sudden she dropped 1.5kg's over 4 weeks, the following fortnight (2 weeks) she dropped a total 5kg's. She was drinking a lot more water than usual and had gone off her food and pet milk (the milk she used to throw a tantrum to get). So I knew something was up.

Made the appointment at the Vet, and the rest they say is history. Because I am not a Vet, nor have I had any personal experience with Diabetes, I am following what he is telling me to do.

She is still drinking a lot of water, is now asking for her milk again (sometimes she drinks it others she doesn't), her appetite has also improved, and she is no longer listless and lethargic.

Overall her health has improved beyond belief! As has her old self .

She has another appointment with the Vet tonight, where we will see what her levels are, and whether or not her dosage needs to be adjusted.

She also has an unknown growth, but the Vet wants to treat one thing at a time, she will be 15 next month, and I maintain that while she is no pain, I will do whatever is necessary for her to remain the happy dog she is.

(once I am allowed to I will post her picture)

Cheers

Susan

[CraigM]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

Vetsulin (in the States), and Caninsulin (in the rest of the world) are the same insulin. Here is a link to the new Vetsulin webpage that has some pretty good info. http://www.vetsulin.com/dog-owner/default.aspx

Guess the "WA" is Western Australia, and not Washington state

Craig

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

Welcome Penny and Susan

Wow 15 years young, what an accomplishment, your doing great with your Penny. Hope to see her soon. My dog is 13


You found us, ask away any questions you have!

My dog got regulated on caninsulin soon after his dx but injected twice a day!!

How did it go today at the vet?

Really hope she is


on insulin twice a day, every 12 hours , Inject right after food.

[Auddog]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

I wanted to hand out a belated warm welcome to you and Penny
Are things are going well after your recent vet visit? Just out of curiosity, have you and your vet discussed home testing?
We hope to hear from you soon
Audrey & Bazzle

[ABBIE'SMOM]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

Welcome Susan & Penny, I haven't been on site in about a month. I remember how terrified I was for my pup when first diagnosed. I can tell you that I learned so much from this site. Everyone is so great to share their experience. Invaluable to me. I highly recommend getting a glucometer & home testing. I was reluctant at first, but It is so much nicer not to be in the dark about my Abbie's progress.
I use a Alpha Trac 2. It is the same type my vet used. He was great about my home testing & I checked my meter against his. I was reluctant to put my girl on special food & made homemade & used lite. I have recently changed to Science Diet WD & the Canned WD & it has made a big difference. Wishing you & Penny the best with this new adventure! Know it is a scary time while they are getting regulated. She will be like a new dog in no time!
Elaine & Abbie

[Fiery_WA]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

Wow thank you everyone for your responses and welcome

ABBIE'SMOM Yes it is very frightening more so for me than her.

Auddog No, I want to purchase a home testing kit for her, at the moment she is being taken to the Vet weekly, where they do a blood test and also use a glucometer. Her overall "health" has improved beyond belief, she is still drinking a lot of water.

Riliey and Mo Her second trip back, Friday just gone, her sugar levels were as high as when she was first diagnosed. She wouldn't eat in the morning (have since sorted this), the Vet seemed concerned her levels were as high as they were considering she was basically only eating once a day. He upped her dosage to 14 units, and suggested it may have to be a twice daily injection.

CraigM BINGO! You win a Gold Star the WA is for Western Australia

The Vet said to buy some Glucose Syrup for her, which we have done, I am very to report to date it is still unopened.

Okay question time, I have googled for a glucometer here in Australia for pets (the Vet uses blood tests and a glucometer designed for humans). I want to be able to have a more hands on with her healthcare. I rang the Vet's office to see if I could purchase one, the Vet has yet to bring it up. I did discuss it with my partner, who said "leave it to the Vet".

Not that I would have a clue what to do if her sugar levels were high anyway.

Although I hate to admit it, I just cannot bring myself to jab her with the needle, my partner is playing the role of the bad Guy at the moment, and doing the jabs. I know I have to overcome this especially if she is put on twice daily injections. (I have regular blood test's and can watch the needle go into me), but every time I get close to Penny with the needle my hand just pulls back it's like an automatic reflex.

She is due back at the Vet's again on Friday, where I suspect he will put her on twice daily injections. Other than the fact she does what dog's do best SLEEP!, her overall health as I mentioned earlier is so much better .

Thank you for your support, I know I speak for everyone when I say our dog's become like our children, the only difference is they don't back chat.

[Monsters Momma]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

Welcome to you and Penny!

You've received some very good advice here, but we all have our own perspective on things, so I'd like to share mine. My husband sounds like your partner. He would have never thought to do the kind of research I did to the extent I did it. He has more than once said "Did you check with the vet?" and to that my answer is usually "No, I checked with the board."

You see, most vets do not deal with what all of us deal with on a daily basis. My vet had told me that home testing was not necessary, but I had bought one glucometer and had another ordered within a week. I had already found this forum and knew that blood testing at home was the best course to keep Vinny healthy. I do all of Vinny's testing now, then share it with our vet. Our vet has now become a bit of a convert to home testing.

There is so much info on this forum; what are low's and high's, best places for testing, how to give shots, etc. There is a lot of help here. You just have to convince yourself that what you are doing is saving Penny's life...because frankly, you are.

On last thing, before raising insulin on a 44 lb dog, please try going to twice daily injections! I'm not sure when your vet is testing Penny, or if a curve has been done...if a curve has been, it would show that two injections are needed, not just one. Natalie knows more about this than I do and she is the guru! When she speaks, people listen. I would strongly advise you to listen!

I'm sorry this is so overwhelming...we are all here to help with whatever knowledge we have! Hang in there, it does get better!!
Mel

[Fiery_WA]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

Welcome to you and Penny!

You've received some very good advice here, but we all have our own perspective on things, so I'd like to share mine. My husband sounds like your partner. He would have never thought to do the kind of research I did to the extent I did it. He has more than once said "Did you check with the vet?" and to that my answer is usually "No, I checked with the board."

You see, most vets do not deal with what all of us deal with on a daily basis. My vet had told me that home testing was not necessary, but I had bought one glucometer and had another ordered within a week. I had already found this forum and knew that blood testing at home was the best course to keep Vinny healthy. I do all of Vinny's testing now, then share it with our vet. Our vet has now become a bit of a convert to home testing.

There is so much info on this forum; what are low's and high's, best places for testing, how to give shots, etc. There is a lot of help here. You just have to convince yourself that what you are doing is saving Penny's life...because frankly, you are.

On last thing, before raising insulin on a 44 lb dog, please try going to twice daily injections! I'm not sure when your vet is testing Penny, or if a curve has been done...if a curve has been, it would show that two injections are needed, not just one. Natalie knows more about this than I do and she is the guru! When she speaks, people listen. I would strongly advise you to listen!

I'm sorry this is so overwhelming...we are all here to help with whatever knowledge we have! Hang in there, it does get better!!
Mel

My Vet hasn't said anything about home testing, but I figure if it was me with Diabetes, I would have to test myself. As I said in my previous post, I want to keep an eye on her levels, even though I wouldn't know what to do.

This is her second week, at thus stage she is being tested weekly on a Friday afternoon about an hour before her injection is due. I don't know if the time of day had anything to do with last weeks poor results (her level was a high as when she was first diagnosed).

Now this is something that get's under my skin, I know it shouldn't but it does, Penny is my dog, she has been with me since prior to leaving my now X husband, my now partner (together 13 years), when ever we go into the Vet, the Vet talks to him, NOT TO ME! , My partner loves her as I do, but she isn't his dog.

So with the Vet talking to him and not me, I have no choice, at this stage but do as both the Vet and my partner tell me. So I feel like a complete idiot.

Then the issue of home testing, here in Australia, I have yet to find someone that sells a glucometer for animals. I have found on Amazon IPet
testing kit.

HOWEVER, the Vet has also detected an unknown growth in her abdomen area, it could be anything from a Cyst to the big C, I am hoping for the former but silently preparing for the latter. He (the Vet) is unwilling to explore what the growth is, up until we get Penny's diabetes under control.

So I just don't know what to do, my apologies for the random pieces of probably useless information and the order in which they are given, but I am just at a loss. The more reading I do the more confused I become (and I am not a blonde lol )

Yesterday I said I had yet to give Penny her jab, last night for the first time I DID IT!!, not something I was happy to do, not something I want to do again (the partner can), but at least I know I can do it

[amydunn19]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

You don't have to use a glucometer made for animals - I use a human meter and I have for years. My meter is very close to my vet's animal meter and he was so impressed with it, that he bought one for his clinic.

Even if you are not sure what the numbers mean and what to do right now, that doesn't mean that you won't - you obviously want to learn it or you wouldn't be here. You can always ask away here - there is so much knowledge here and I know some people might be leery of advice from a forum in general, I can tell you with great confidence that this place is different. There are no personal agendas here - just a family of people who are traveling the same road and want to help each other. So, if you don't understand something (even if you think it is a dumb question), ask it here. Someone on here will have some experience with just about any situation.

Knowledge is power, my dear, so learn all you can and that should give you a dose of confidence and courage and take control of this situation and your dog. Penny needs you to be her advocate. You can take her to the vet by yourself - the vet would have to address you then

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

Sooo glad you got it done.

Next step , hometesting with whatever meter you can get, we will figure out the difference for you

Your doing great, like your posts, keep them updated k!

Mo

[Monsters Momma]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

You don't have to use a glucometer made for animals - I use a human meter and I have for years. My meter is very close to my vet's animal meter and he was so impressed with it, that he bought one for his clinic.

Even if you are not sure what the numbers mean and what to do right now, that doesn't mean that you won't - you obviously want to learn it or you wouldn't be here. You can always ask away here - there is so much knowledge here and I know some people might be leery of advice from a forum in general, I can tell you with great confidence that this place is different. There are no personal agendas here - just a family of people who are traveling the same road and want to help each other. So, if you don't understand something (even if you think it is a dumb question), ask it here. Someone on here will have some experience with just about any situation.

Knowledge is power, my dear, so learn all you can and that should give you a dose of confidence and courage and take control of this situation and your dog. Penny needs you to be her advocate. You can take her to the vet by yourself - the vet would have to address you then

I was pretty much going to say the same thing, so I just quoted Amy instead! Especially the part about taking Penny to the vet without your partner. Maybe the vet just feels easier talking man to man, I don't know, but with my personality, it wouldn't last long. Being prepared and showing that you have knowledge about this disease is one way to make him know that you understand what is going on...even at this early stage. Oh and by the way...I am blonde.

I don't think Amy mentioned, but she uses a One Touch Ultra I believe, and that is definitely a human meter. Someone on this board (Craig) has a ton of meters and can answer just about any question you throw at him. There are ways of converting the numbers you get, so don't let it stop you that you can't find an animal meter.

Here are a few links that should help, depending on what you want to tackle first...
Curves: http://www.americandiabeteswholesale...campaign=Email
Food and insulin (this helped me a lot): http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4051
Regulating: http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2680
Testing, meters, etc. (You don't have to read all of these at once, I'll give you a couple you should take a look at): http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=15
Craig's discussion on meters
Video's of home testing (it really can be this easy, maybe not at first, but it can be)

Those helped me, and I actually had the vet asking me if I was a nurse because I at least sounded like I knew what I was talking about.

We all know how overwhelming it is, but Amy was right again, when she said that knowledge is power. Decide what you want to tackle, ask questions and read up on those first. We can help!

Mo is right, you are doing great!
Mel

[Fiery_WA]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

Oh don't worry I won't be taking the backseat tomorrow, I have already told my partner I want to get a Glucometer, he started "oh wha" I interrupted him and said because she is my dog! that's what for!

The only thing holding me back from actually purchasing one at the moment, is I want to get a proper pet one, only available in the USA, I would order one tomorrow, except for the fact Penny still has this "UNKNOWN" growth. While I am not penny pinching, not when it comes to Penny, I am also on a Disability Pension, and I fear this unknown growth (yes I am thinking worse case scenario). So the $200 AUD I spend on the Glucometer, could possible go towards an operation on her or it could end up being wasted money.

However rest assured I will be asking the vet about the Glucometer, and I will also be politely asking him to speak to me not my partner as she is my dog!