Debating changing diet; blood curve too high

[Cliff.evener]

Hello all,
Our 10 yr old yellow lab (80lbs) was diagnosed about 8 weeks ago.
The first 6 weeks he was not responding well and stopped eating. After he lost 20 lbs he ended up in the ER vet with ketones. He has since came home and made a miraculous recovery. For 2 weeks now he has been eating well, gaining energy and appears much happier.
He is currently on Novilin N, 22 units twice a day with meal
He is eating grain free dry food for each meal, sometimesa can of pedigree if he's being picky. Problem is that his curve is still pretty high. Within an hour of eating an taking his shot he shoots up to high 300's quickly then mid day is bottoming out around 250 for a brief moment then back into the 300s when it's time for the 2nd shot/meal. Rather than must pumping him full of more novilin units I was curious as to if anyone has tried the vet prescribed high fiber dog food meant for diabetic dogs? I was thinking maybe that could help level off his sugar? Any thoughts/advice?
Goal is to achieve that magical 250-100 curve range but he's stuck around 390-250 with no stability, rapid up and down

[CraigM]

Re: Debating changing diet; blood curve too high

Welcome to the forum.

My first thought is that they need what they need. There is no prize limiting his insulin dosage to some number. If 22 units isn't enough, then slowly increase the dosage. 22 units isn't all that high for a 60 pound dog: they need what they need.

If you want to try the prescription diabetic foods, or non prescription higher fiber food, go ahead. Just realize the prescription foods are pretty expensive and the amount fed will likely be quite a bit more (large portion size). Higher fiber foods may smooth out the curve.

I'm guessing you are getting the Novolin-N from Walmart for $25/vial?

Craig

[CraigM]

Re: Debating changing diet; blood curve too high

Was he 80 pounds, or is he 80 pounds now?

Craig

[Cliff.evener]

Re: Debating changing diet; blood curve too high

He is 80lbs right now.
And yeah using be Walmart novilin N. I discussed with the vet if switching to the actual humulin from the pharmacy would help but she insisted their really is no difference. The insulin is working but it's not very stable. Doesn't stay down in the 200s very long

[jesse girl]

Re: Debating changing diet; blood curve too high

hi and welcome

its possible your pup may need more insulin

i would probably keep increasing no more than one unit at these levels after a complete curve and giving a week to settle

if the numbers become more unstable with the increase than a food change maybe appropriate

appetite problems can make dosing difficult especially if you have to give different foods to coax to eat . ITs possible something else maybe occurring outside of diabetes to cause the eating difficulties

the numbers you posted are not terrible . for some dogs thats the best they can do and do well but i believe you might be able to improve on what your seeing

[CraigM]

Re: Debating changing diet; blood curve too high

22 units for a 80 pound pup really isn't very much. My Annie is only 19 pounds and gets 9-9.5 units of Novolin-N (she also gets 2-3 units of Novolin-R, but that's a different story). Of course, every dog/situation is different.

As long as you are home blood testing (sounds like you are) I'd probably increase insulin about 10% (go to about 24 - 25 units) and see how that works.

Repeatable meals is very important. I weigh out Annie's food to be sure it's repeatable. If for some reason the pup won't eat, many would reduce the insulin like this:

Full meal - full dosage
Half meal - half dosage
1/4 meal - 1/4 dosage
Refuse to eat - Still 1/4 dosage

Of course, this isn't ideal.

Craig

[amydunn19]

Humulin is not better than Novolin - they are virtually the same. I think vets push humulin more because of pharmaceutical reps instead of actual results. I think it would be impossible for them to say one is better because no studies have really been done and they have no control of the dog's routine themselves.

[chrmyr]

Re: Debating changing diet; blood curve too high

My pup is around 60 lbs and I just bumped her up to 21 units. So I agree with Craig, 22 units isn't that much for your dogs weight. The canned pedigree, did you check the ingredients on that? I haven't found a good canned food other than Science Diet w/d that doesn't have some amount of potatoe starch or other carbs that will raise glucose levels. Instead I mix tuna or salmon (canned in only water) with Luna's meals. Or a hard boiled egg.

[tonyr]

Re: Debating changing diet; blood curve too high

My pup is around 60 lbs and I just bumped her up to 21 units. So I agree with Craig, 22 units isn't that much for your dogs weight. The canned pedigree, did you check the ingredients on that? I haven't found a good canned food other than Science Diet w/d that doesn't have some amount of potatoe starch or other carbs that will raise glucose levels. Instead I mix tuna or salmon (canned in only water) with Luna's meals. Or a hard boiled egg.

I am sure there are some that are just basically meat with added vitamins and minerals.
Here is the one I use called Forthglade Natural Menu Chicken.
Nutritional Information

• 100% Natural Ingredients
• 88% Meat
• Grain Free
• No artificial colours, flavours or preservatives
• No animal derivatives
• No sugars
• Wheat Free
• Made in Devon

Composition

Chicken (88%), Minerals.
Analytical Constituents

Crude Protein 12%
, Crude Fibres 0.5%, 
Crude Oils & Fats 6%, 
Crude Ash 4%, 
Moisture 79%
Nutritional Additives

None.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out Evo dog food canned which has 1% carb content.

[Joan]

Re: Debating changing diet; blood curve too high

I am sure there are some that are just basically meat with added vitamins and minerals.
Here is the one I use called Forthglade Natural Menu Chicken.
Nutritional Information

• 100% Natural Ingredients
• 88% Meat
• Grain Free
• No artificial colours, flavours or preservatives
• No animal derivatives
• No sugars
• Wheat Free
• Made in Devon

Composition

Chicken (88%), Minerals.
Analytical Constituents

Crude Protein 12%
, Crude Fibres 0.5%, 
Crude Oils & Fats 6%, 
Crude Ash 4%, 
Moisture 79%
Nutritional Additives

None.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out Evo dog food canned which has 1% carb content.

Just to remind you that when converting these values for canned food you need to adjust for the moisture content (nearly 80%)

So the values are actually approx

Protein...60%
fiber......2.5%
Oil/fat...30%
ash.....20%

This is a good food for the protein content of the diet, but is not a balanced food for overall health.
For most diabetic dogs, they require more fiber to slow down the digestion and match up better with the insulin. Without any carbs, the insulin will not last long enough to keep your pup in good numbers for the required 12 hrs. Also you need to add vitamin/mineral supplement, and most importantly calcium.
Also to consider is that many diabetic dogs have a tendency toward pancreatitis (being diabetic means they already have a pancreatic problem) and the fat content here is very high at 30%

[tonyr]

Re: Debating changing diet; blood curve too high

The previous posts where referring to an addition to his kibble when his dog is feeling picky.

[peony]

Re: Debating changing diet; blood curve too high

He is 80lbs right now.
And yeah using be Walmart novilin N. I discussed with the vet if switching to the actual humulin from the pharmacy would help but she insisted their really is no difference. The insulin is working but it's not very stable. Doesn't stay down in the 200s very long

I use Novolin N from Walmart and I am still trying to regulate my dog Kirby after five months. I recently increased him 1/2 unit and two weeks later his numbers are all up. Only one reading was under 300 (last curve only one reading was over 300.) My vet has me wait two weeks to do a curve after a dosage change. Kirby currently weighs 22 pounds and is getting 8 units twice a day.

Although his numbers aren't what I want, his change in behavior has been remarkable. He no longer drinks excessively, isn't leaking pee in the house and is just more energetic in general. Someone here told me it's a marathon not a sprint

[Cliff.evener]

Re: Debating changing diet; blood curve too high

So we went with the purina vet diets dual fiber with 24 units of novilin.
Initially the results were encouraging. Instead of spiking straight to 400 after he ate and had his shot he stayed around 280-320. What's weird is now he doesn't really bottom out 6 hours later, he kinda lingers around 300 all day, I'm guessing bc the food is meant to digest slowly. And today strangely he was at 180 right before his 2nd meal/shot. He doesn't wanna play by the book! Very lab normal curve. Now we're Just confused again

[Judi]

Re: Debating changing diet; blood curve too high

Welcome to canine diabetes. A lot of our dogs didn't read the book! Your guy may be trending more toward a mountain shaped curve where he is the lowest at the end of 12 hours. The "traditional" curve is shaped like a bowl. They don't all do that. If you are gone during the day the mountain curve is less worrisome if lows are a problem

You are exactly right about the food causing less of a drop. That's the goal. In an ideal world they would just have steady blood sugar all day and night.

This is why curves are so important. You change the dose based on the lowest # and you start to figure your dog out.

Some vets don't realize that not every dog has the same pattern. You are doing great figuring this stuff out! Hang in there

[amydunn19]

Re: Debating changing diet; blood curve too high

If you are confused at this point, you are definitely on the right track. Diabetes has a steep learning curve and it takes time to understand how canine diabetes works. As you test more, you will learn how your dog reacts to changes and it does get easier.

Whenever you make changes to food or insulin, it takes their body time to process the changes. So, the numbers you see today may not be indicative of the numbers after the changes have "settled". You will hear the word settle quite a lot here because although you may see some immediate change in numbers, their bodies take time to adjust to the changes - usually we say not to make further changes for 5 - 7 days but some dogs can take up to two weeks to acclimate to a higher/lower dose or different food. The exception, of course, is dangerously low numbers which should be dealt with immediately. It is usually best to make one change at a time(food or insulin or routine) to know which change made the difference. It is great that you are already seeing a difference.

Patience, with this disease and the whole process, is a virtue and was one of the hardest parts for me. You guys seem to be doing great so far.