Monty 10 y/o Black Lab

[simonejg]

..Monty..black lab 10 in Feb..was 36kg when diagnosed two months ago
Caninsulin 24 units am
diet...at the mo on Royal Canin healthy weight 1.5cups am and pm, might try making own food when bag finished

..blood glucose still high 25 in am, still trying to regulate..use Accucheck metre from his elbow

am new to this forum and have spent hours going through everyones notes and find it really helpful
thanks

[Patty]

Re: Monty 10 y/o Black Lab

Hi and welcome to you!
I copied your post into a new thread for Monty.

It sounds like your vet has Monty on 1 shot a day yet. This was a protocol orginially used with Caninsulin, however it has since been revised. And, we've seen that with the rare exception of a very small dog most dogs need 2 shots a day 12 hours apart. Let us know if this is the case. I would suspect that's one reason for the higher bg (blood glucose) in the morning of 25 mmol/l (450mg/dl).

Congratualtions on home testing already! Do you have a curve you could post where blood sugar is taken preshot then every 2 hours after? We might be able to make some recommendations to Monty's regimen.

Again, welcome to you!
Patty

[eileen]

Re: Monty 10 y/o Black Lab

I'm glad to see Patty has started your own thread.

As I read your post my concern was also the mention of being on only one injection a day as I can't help but wonder if that is contributing to the high bgs.

Will be looking for your next report.

[janspack]

Re: Your dog's diet, insulin, and meter used

Hi, welcome to the forum. The people here are absolute life-savers and will help you get Monty on track I'm certain.

I can't add much to what the others have said except that I agree, most dogs are on two doses of insulin a day which might help those morning highs.

[CarolW]

Re: Monty 10 y/o Black Lab

Joining the others, giving you a welcome to this most useful forum. I've been on numbers of forums about canine diabetes, and this one outshines them all, for responsible, careful, and helpful posting, so I'm glad you found your way here.

My last dog died 8 June past - not of diabetes, but of cancer. It's rare for our dogs to die of diabetes, because diabetes is so manageable.

It took me more than TWO MONTHS to find another dog, but finally, i did. Camellia isn't diabetic, but I stay on here to enjoy this excellent forum, and also, in my Kumbi's honor. And Kwali's too! - though she wasn't diabetic either.

I fully agree with those who are suggesting Monty would do better on two injections of insulin per day. Hope you can manage to do that. It's just great that you've learned to test Monty's blood glucose yourself; that's a huge advantage for you and Monty. It would be extremely instructive to do a curve (testing every two hours from just before giving the morning insulin).

Camellia and I will be watching, and cheering you on.

Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:58:36 (PDT)

[simonejg]

Re: Monty 10 y/o Black Lab

..thanks for your input, have not checked this for a while as monty was doing so well, but am kicking myself now. Monty within one week went blind and last week we started on two doses a day....thought we were doing the right thing by listening to the vet saying one dose a day.
we are still trying to get it right, he has 17 units in am and was having 17 units in the pm, in the morning he was still around the 20's but since yesterday I changed his food to normal supermarket food and he has been under 10 for most of today, have just fed him it 5:50pm and will maybe give him another 10 units at 7:30pm.
I changed his food as my cousin had a diabetic cat and she said on these forums alot of people were against dry dog food for diabetic dogs, and the canned seems to be working well.
With Caninsulin...r u to give the doses 12 hours apart??? Does that mean feed him 12 hours apart also?? The vet said to just do as normal food and insulin at 7:30am and 5:30pm
Do cataracts go away??
Again, thanks for your help.

[Patty]

Re: Monty 10 y/o Black Lab

I'm sorry to hear about the cataracts. You can have a veterinary ophthalmologist evaluate to see if cataract surgery is an option. It often carries a hefty price but can be worth it for some dogs.

I'm glad to hear Monty is on 2 shots a day now. Food and insulin should be given 12 hours apart.

I would keep a close eye on the changes in blood sugar due to the change in food and do a full curve in a few days to see how the food and insulin are matching up.

Glad to see you back
Take care,
Patty

[CarolW]

Re: Monty 10 y/o Black Lab

That 12-hour interval, both for feeding and for insulin, is what gives us first, consistency (feed the same amount, the same thing, every meal), and inject while eating, or a short while later, or, I used to inject Kumbi 30 minutes later) - and helps regulate the food-glucose arrangements in the body in a consistent manner. Avoids OVERLAP with insulin doses - best keep those 12 hours apart, too. Clever of you to catch that and ask about it.

Caninsulin is a bit tricky, as it has two components, one faster-acting than the other, and BG (blood glucose) levels can drop fairly sharply with the faster-acting component, and then perhaps (not always) show another slight surge as the other component takes hold and peaks.

About food; here in Canada, I wouldn't use supermarket food; the quality of the food DOES matter, and the premium foods generally have better quality-control, usually, also, better ingredients, than does the super-market food. At least, that's what I believe, after reading about dog food for about 40 years now.

Principles for a diabetic dog are,

As mentioned:

Feed the same thing, same amounts, twice a day, 12 hours apart

You're looking for a food with reliably quality-ingredients, restricted fat (to prevent pancreatitis), and high fiber (to help manage the absorption rate so the food and insulin can match up well).

Do read the articles on the k9diabetes main site, about the race between food and insulin, for example.

Best wishes to you and Monty! I'll be watching for your further reports!

Mon, 27 Dec 2010 06:19:44 (PST)

[simonejg]

Re: Monty 10 y/o Black Lab

...sooo confused and unsure of what to do. Tested him 7am and is at 2.4 (low), gave 17 units of insulin at about 8pm last night.
Is this low blood sugar due to too much insulin, not enough food and could the heat have something to do with it...very hot last night???
..Yesterday when testing at 5:30pm he was around 10, fed him half a can of pal pedigree (crude protein 6%. crude fibre 3%, crude fat 5%)
then at 8pm he was 20..does this mean the canned food is not good for him??
..so this morning gave him quarter a can and one cup of royal canin weight control. will test him in two hours
..i have not given any insulin this morning as he was low.
..what food to give him and how much is really confusing me,have been on the internet for days.

[MaryLea]

Re: Monty 10 y/o Black Lab

I'm not expert, but I can tell you
1. You need to feed and inject at 12-hours intervals. Period. How close the food and injection are to each other depends on the type and amount of food.
2. You need to be giving a high-fiber food. The number you mentioned for the canned food is not high enough. We ran into trouble with Ruffles by not using a food with enough fiber.

Several people here are much more informed than I--especially Natalie (K9diabetes), Peggy and Patty. Watch for their responses.

Best wishes to you and Monty. You can do this, it just takes time and practice.

Mary

[k9diabetes]

Re: Monty 10 y/o Black Lab

Hi,

Short answer is yes, the cause of the low blood sugar is too much insulin.

Longer answer... Depending on when the food change was made, the insulin dose may have needed to be changed because of the food change and/or the reduction when going to doses of insulin a day from one maybe should have been more drastic.

Where are you at now with food and insulin - what did you give him today?

The dose he was on before was based on the food he was eating - what kind and how much.

For now, I would go back to the food he was set to be fed and stick with that. Measure out the same amount each meal with meals 12 hours apart.

And I would further reduce his insulin dose... if it was 17, maybe go down to 12. You want to find a place where his meals are regular and his blood sugar never goes too low and then, using curves of his blood glucose, work your way UP toward the right dose of insulin, giving each change in dose at least 4-5 days to settle in before thinking about changing it again.

If you wind up changing foods, the way his insulin and food get used can change drastically. The one thing you can do to make the change less dramatic is to give the same number of calories of the new food as you were giving of the old.

But for now, stick with the Royal Canin dry and get things settled down again. And we can talk more while you do that for a few days about whether to change his diet and how to change it if needed.

Natalie

[simonejg]

Re: Monty 10 y/o Black Lab

..thanks so much for your reply...

7am - 2.4, fed one cup royal canin and 1/4 cup pal tinned food (no insulin)
9:45am - 11.4, gave 10 units
12pm - 4.9
3pm - 3.6
6pm - 3/4 tinned food (unfortunatly miscommunication with me and my parter, I was going back to the biscuits, but he also was confused what to feed, so last couple of days have been a bit messy.
6:30pm - 5.2
..am thinking will prob give another 10 units at 7:30 tonight so we can get back on track tomorrow with feeding at 6:30am then feeding at 7pm (have not been doing this properly either, we were giving insulin then straight away feeding)

..we have also had the discussion about putting him to sleep, am unsure of his quality of life with no eyesight, but this has only been since Christmas Eve (merry xmas to me eh)...but going to see vet tomorrow to see what he has to say..fingers crossed! First day back to work tomorrow, one of us has been home for the last four days, hope monty copes ok.

[k9diabetes]

Re: Monty 10 y/o Black Lab

Well... the first thing I have to say is I would never even think of putting a dog down because he is blind. Chris was blind four of his five years as a diabetic and it didn't slow him down at all. He went on walks, waded and even swam in a shallow part of a local river on a long lead, played in the snow!

Blind dogs adjust very well and they just go on with their lives. It is us humans who are devastated by their blindness. So we have to be sure and set aside how we would feel about it and see how our dog feels about it after a few weeks to adjust to it. They don't wail about how unfair it is or cry "Why meeeeee??????" It's more often something along the lines of "Hmmm... that's different... do I smell bunnies!!!"

So having said that, let me look more at your numbers.

Natalie

[k9diabetes]

Re: Monty 10 y/o Black Lab

7am - 2.4 / 43 (U.S. units), fed one cup royal canin and 1/4 cup pal tinned food (no insulin)
9:45am - 11.4 / 207, gave 10 units
12pm - 4.9 / 89
3pm - 3.6 / 66
6pm - 3/4 tinned food (unfortunatly miscommunication with me and my parter, I was going back to the biscuits, but he also was confused what to feed, so last couple of days have been a bit messy.
6:30pm - 5.2 / 95
..am thinking will prob give another 10 units at 7:30 tonight so we can get back on track tomorrow with feeding at 6:30am then feeding at 7pm (have not been doing this properly either, we were giving insulin then straight away feeding)

I think 10 units is a good place to hold for now and get his diet straightened out.

The reason his blood sugar went so low today once you gave him insulin is a lot of his food had already been digested prior to giving him insulin. So there was insulin in his system but not much food to go with it. And with the late injection, there was likely still insulin working for the morning shot at dinner time.

I would give him a little extra food tonight if his blood sugar hasn't risen above 11. And then see if you can get by on 10 units and his usual dry food meal. If that's still too much insulin, cut the dose again.

You want to find a dose where, even if the blood sugar at times is higher than you want it to be, it is never anything like too low. That's the point where you can stay and let everything in his diabetes routine settle down for a few days and stabilize.

Natalie

[simonejg]

Re: Monty 10 y/o Black Lab

..thanks natalie, will try that, but just to clarify, do i give him any insulin tonight?

..the last couple of days has been very confusng and upsetting, and you are right it is me in tears every time he bumps into things. It was heartbreaking when he was first diagnosed as he also had severe pancreatitis and we thought we were going to lose him, and now going blind, I just dont want him to suffer. You have definitely put me at ease in knowing that he can be okay without sight.

Simone
p.s. i have put a pic of monty on my profile but it does not show up yet