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**Joan** · 07-09-2010, 07:47 AM

Re: any thoughts in improving these numbers

Have been doing a lot of thinking about your dog overnight. I can completely sympathize with your "pin cushion" analogy. My pug was exactly the same, I think when she was first diagnosed, I tested her on average 15 times per day. she was also erratic to begin with, and took a lot of innovation to keep her in good numbers. You have done well to try figuring out when the food is utilized as opposed to the insulin absorption rate. The first several months after diagnosis, dogs are all over the place, and you do what you need to do to keep them at reasonable levels. However, as they go along, it is best IF it is possible to get them back to more normal insulin/food routines. That is because the insulin actually does work best when it works together with the food. My opinon only, after going through where you are for nearly a year, before getting my dog level.

I think the problem can be compounded by waiting too long to give the insulin after food. IF the insulin is lasting 12 hrs., then it is still in her system when you are feeding the next meal, and may help that drop you are getting. As you wait longer and longer to give the shot, the overlap with the next meal becomes more and more pronounced. It is highly unusual, not unheard of, for a dog to digest their food so slowly that it does not raise the bg for several hours. Have you tried digestive enzymes?
I tried them with my pug, and it increased her digestion rate so much I couldn't continue, but in your dog it may just be the trick you need.

If it were my dog, and having gone through this innovation/exploration/learning process myself, I would lower her dose slightly, and try once again to feed and give insulin within 1/2 hr of the food. If it appears you get too much drop after the meal, you could try some digestive enzymes. Or you can add some quicker carbs such as white bread. I know that you have tried some of these things before, but the really annoying thing about newly diagnosed diabetics is that they change! What did not work last month, may indeed work now.

I agree with you that your numbrs are a bit low. There just is not enough wiggle room for an unexpected drop. Esp if you are working and not home. I am lucky enough to be home 24/7.

These are just my opinions on the subject, and you will find lots of different ones, as the truth of the matter is, every dog is a unique case. But looking back at my struggles for so long, and how easy it all is now, I think i would have got here more easily and quickly, if I had realized that in the beginning, one theory you have on how your dog is reacting via bg readings, can be blown to bits the following week. So you keep trying, but heading back towards a more "normal" pattern, is a good way to keep from getting too far from the way insulin is designed to work.

Hugs Joan

**jesse girl** · 07-09-2010, 08:36 AM

Re: any thoughts in improving these numbers

Originally posted by Joan View Post

Have been doing a lot of thinking about your dog overnight. I can completely sympathize with your "pin cushion" analogy. My pug was exactly the same, I think when she was first diagnosed, I tested her on average 15 times per day. she was also erratic to begin with, and took a lot of innovation to keep her in good numbers. You have done well to try figuring out when the food is utilized as opposed to the insulin absorption rate. The first several months after diagnosis, dogs are all over the place, and you do what you need to do to keep them at reasonable levels. However, as they go along, it is best IF it is possible to get them back to more normal insulin/food routines. That is because the insulin actually does work best when it works together with the food. My opinon only, after going through where you are for nearly a year, before getting my dog level.

I think the problem can be compounded by waiting too long to give the insulin after food. IF the insulin is lasting 12 hrs., then it is still in her system when you are feeding the next meal, and may help that drop you are getting. As you wait longer and longer to give the shot, the overlap with the next meal becomes more and more pronounced. It is highly unusual, not unheard of, for a dog to digest their food so slowly that it does not raise the bg for several hours. Have you tried digestive enzymes?
I tried them with my pug, and it increased her digestion rate so much I couldn't continue, but in your dog it may just be the trick you need.

If it were my dog, and having gone through this innovation/exploration/learning process myself, I would lower her dose slightly, and try once again to feed and give insulin within 1/2 hr of the food. If it appears you get too much drop after the meal, you could try some digestive enzymes. Or you can add some quicker carbs such as white bread. I know that you have tried some of these things before, but the really annoying thing about newly diagnosed diabetics is that they change! What did not work last month, may indeed work now.

I agree with you that your numbrs are a bit low. There just is not enough wiggle room for an unexpected drop. Esp if you are working and not home. I am lucky enough to be home 24/7.

These are just my opinions on the subject, and you will find lots of different ones, as the truth of the matter is, every dog is a unique case. But looking back at my struggles for so long, and how easy it all is now, I think i would have got here more easily and quickly, if I had realized that in the beginning, one theory you have on how your dog is reacting via bg readings, can be blown to bits the following week. So you keep trying, but heading back towards a more "normal" pattern, is a good way to keep from getting too far from the way insulin is designed to work.

Hugs Joan

Thanks very much joan I thought of the same thing some digestive enzymes she did have a pancreatitis and that could have disturbed the process of digestion but her poops are good she is getting healthier every day and more active which leads to another problem she drops significantly with exercise she is just so sensitive to the insulin but your probably wright as time goes on she may develop to more of a normal way do you have any recommendations on those digestive enzymes thanks

**jesse girl** · 07-09-2010, 09:25 AM

Re: any thoughts in improving these numbers

the problem for trying the lower dose at about mealtime it still will drive he numbers down pretty hard and when the food kicks in we are off to the raises she is just so sensitive to the insulin and her digestion takes such a long time to get sugar in her system today I gave her food 15 minutes earlier and still not quite there Ime not sure if this is a very special case or it does happen once in a while. Its definitely better then where she was. Ill keep experimenting cant hurt to go another 15 minutes there are some good things she will be higher when ime gone and lower when ime home.

**Joan** · 07-09-2010, 09:59 AM

Re: any thoughts in improving these numbers

these are some digestive enzymes I have used. However since I no longer use them on my diabetic pug, but on some of the others, there are probably others here who can direct you better.

http://www.natural-dog-health-remedi...-for-dogs.html

BTW, I am wondering what a rabbit run is? If we are talking about strenuous exercise, you might try, on the days you are not working, to give that exercise at her high times, as opposed to her lows, and see if it is the exercise making the drop. I know it may not be possible while you work, but if you find if its the rabbit run, then adjusting the food/insulin is not going to make as much difference as adjusting the timing of the exercise when possible.

**jesse girl** · 07-09-2010, 10:22 AM

Re: any thoughts in improving these numbers

Originally posted by Joan View Post

these are some digestive enzymes I have used. However since I no longer use them on my diabetic pug, but on some of the others, there are probably others here who can direct you better.

http://www.natural-dog-health-remedi...-for-dogs.html

BTW, I am wondering what a rabbit run is? If we are talking about strenuous exercise, you might try, on the days you are not working, to give that exercise at her high times, as opposed to her lows, and see if it is the exercise making the drop. I know it may not be possible while you work, but if you find if its the rabbit run, then adjusting the food/insulin is not going to make as much difference as adjusting the timing of the exercise when possible.

yeah the rabbit run is mostly smelling sometimes she will find one and chase it its amazing its more than an hour and a half after she eats and no influence of food at that time you would think no problem but yes there is a problem this is what she enjoys most in life and ive tried to structure the program so she can have some fun she was at 200 when we left when we came back she was 50 Ide like to do latter times but its very hot and work is a problem with that but maybe ill try a spoon full of sugar before the run and shorten the run and see her number before and after like I said the 5.5 dose will keep her within 20 points all day but we are starting at a low level already so she is at about a 100 20 points up or down through the day had to pump her with sugar to pick her up no wiggle room must test alot at least she is normal for a day . gave her a pancake over an hour ago and see no signs of that in he numbers she must be an alien dog or something like that

**Joan** · 07-09-2010, 10:54 AM

Re: any thoughts in improving these numbers

Exactly how long since she was diagnosed, this past Easter, April? What is her weight, I apologize if you have already given this info someplace, just dont see it here.
What is the lowest reading or group of readings you have ever found?
I am out for several hrs now, but will check back as soon as I return.

**jesse girl** · 07-09-2010, 11:35 AM

Re: any thoughts in improving these numbers

Originally posted by Joan View Post

Exactly how long since she was diagnosed, this past Easter, April? What is her weight, I apologize if you have already given this info someplace, just dont see it here.
What is the lowest reading or group of readings you have ever found?
I am out for several hrs now, but will check back as soon as I return.

shes about 26 pounds actually very healthy better than years ago yes Easter this year diagnosed. very low on readings but once again insulin got ahead of sugar . the pancake with sryup finally kicked almost 2 hours shes at 140. she used to be a free eater before this and ate small amounts trough the day now she is eating 2 big meals a day which is one cup of blue weight control twice a day they recommend 1.5 cups a day and she is getting 2 she was pretty thin so i gave her a little extra and she is looking pretty good so maybe ill cut her back a little maybe having that much food in the belly makes a difference or maybe the sugar is going someplace else to be stored she seems to poop twice a day maybe a handful if thats not to descriptive for you and looks good as far as poop goes so everything seems to be working but why so late on the blood sugar looked online cant find anything I think I can regulate her even if it is taking this long its just the timing must be there and i may have to give her a boost at the end . that can be done with my schedule.

**peggy0** · 07-09-2010, 05:35 PM

Re: any thoughts in improving these numbers

These numbers are very good. If this curve is representative then she's in good shape. Exercise and heat will drop her BGs so you need to be careful there. You should give her a carb treat prior to your run so she doesn't drop too low. Buffalo blue weight control vs . the wilderness seems to flatten the curve nicely. You may have to give her a bit more insulin, but it may be flatter if you'd like to try a different diet.

**k9diabetes** · 07-09-2010, 09:23 PM

Re: any thoughts in improving these numbers

I probably would stick with what you have. It's a really really nice curve and the foray into 200s is brief and not very high. Congratulations!!

And I don't think her readings are too low either. There's plenty of room for variation before she gets near low blood sugar.

It's an unusual time for a spike! Seems like she must be taking a while to digest some of her food. So I think the digestive enzymes would be worth a try.

But if this is as good as it gets, this is lovely.

I agree that you will have to watch the exercise as potentially dropping her further on an extra exciting day or hot day. A little carby snack beforehand would help ensure she doesn't go too low.

Natalie

**jesse girl** · 07-10-2010, 10:37 AM

Re: any thoughts in improving these numbers

Thanks for the reply's it definitely gives me more confidence I gave her a little more insulin and change her food time to 2 hours from shot it did eliminate the spike and kept her pretty flat but in the low range I gave her a 1 quarter cup of frozen beef heart at shot time to maybe eliminate that drop at the end of her cycle and be able to take for a walk she ended up in the mid 200s at 6:00 am from 174 at 4:00 am not sure if that was a fluke but will try again with a little less beef heart .good walking numbers went for an hour and came back at 146 . Ime going to drop her insulin down a bit and move her shot time 15 minutes forward it seems her shot time is starting a little earlier than the 1.5 hours that I believed it started working maybe that long walk before her shot can start things a little faster so that will be 2 hours and 15 minutes between shot and food pretty amazing but then again by lowering her dose I may not need to adjust her time I guess I can flip a coin . actually this isn't a bad thing if she threw up or her numbers fluctuated I can adjust her shot I dont no if she will remain this way or get to a more normal pattern we will work with what we got and she seems happy and healthy I probably wont add any digestive enzymes now it taken a while to get this point . thinking the whole time it was rebound and it was not just poor interaction between food and insulin . I am sure jesse isnt the only one like this out there so if you are seeing the same pattern your dog may be in the same situation. Its not to difficult to figure out. thanks every one

**jesse girl** · 07-11-2010, 09:55 AM

why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden

Well things are getting pretty strange we were at 5.5 units twice a day and she started going low so I cut the dose by half a unit to 5 same result same numbers going straight down. 4 hours after her meal 2 hours after her shot so I cut her dose to 4 units same result same number getting into the 70s and I must intervene with some syrup. she was 269 fasting numbers gave pancake night before went for 45 minute walk and came back gave her shot and she was 146 left to go for a drive came back an hour later and 149 this is 3 hours after her meal with no interaction of insulin yet .She has gotten extremely healthier in the last couple weeks is her body producing insulin sporadically . she used to get seizures once and awhile and i attributed it to epilepsy but after researching a bit some hunting dogs go hypoglycemic is a decease in hunting dogs and my doggie is a beagle since she has been diabetic she hasnt had anymore seizures maybe related I dont know. Say if you gave yourself insulin and you did not need it would you go straight down or would your body compensate . ive given he quite a bit of syrup its definitely to much insulin. The predominant way of thinking if a doggie is diabetic thats it the pancreas doesnt produce any insulin I only heard one example of this not being true is when a dog has a pancreatitis sometimes on rare occasions the pancreas is jarred back into producing insulin my dog did have pancreatitis I guess ill drop her a hole unit to 3 sleep is becoming a premium I know this is a unusual case if anyone has seen something similar id appreciate the advise

**CraigM** · 07-11-2010, 11:16 AM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden

Any other changes? Different food, or quantity? Reduced weight?

**jesse girl** · 07-11-2010, 11:52 AM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden

Originally posted by CraigM View Post

Any other changes? Different food, or quantity? Reduced weight?

everything the same gave her half a waffle finally kicked in after 1.5 hour shes up to 149 in the past this sugar and food intervention would blow her up when she was first diagnosed the vet said she did not seem to be a true diabetic he never explained what he meant. Its really strange to drop her dose so much with same numbers on the downside giving sugar when she drops below 100 she go up 30 p0int and then come back down after a half hour ime thinking of cutting her dose to 3 unit maybe 2.5 why do some dogs seem to need so little insulin and some dont I know some can be resistant but such small amounts with all that food you would think there is some production of insulin going on and if so I think this makes things more complicated because how would you dose for that I give her shot 2.5 hours after her meal because her numbers stay low and it seems like the food isnt kicking in for 3.5 hours or maybe there is insulin working the whole time secreted from her body. she has been very difficult to regulate and just lately we have been getting better numbers. It is definitely to much insulin this we know why is the question. This is probably why its been so difficult. I have used r insulin in the past when she had high numbers you could gve her a half a unit or less she would drop 200 points and stay flat at that number four hours.

**Patty** · 07-11-2010, 06:22 PM

Re: why does jesse need less and less insulin all of a suden

I merged your threads together so we can keep all of Jesse's information in one place. Makes it easier to go back and look at her history.

I wonder if Jesse is honeymooning. This can happen if not all of the beta cells have been destroyed yet. Often it won't last. But for a time earlier in diagnosis the body can start producing insulin on its own and thus need less injected insulin.

It's also possible to have overlap of insulin build up and it can take a few days on a significantly lower dose to rid the body of the excess insulin.

I know Joan had recommended the digestive enzymes as a help in getting the food into Jesse's system faster as well in the first few hours. I would consider trying this.

Say if you gave yourself insulin and you did not need it would you go straight down or would your body compensate

Your body systems would try to compensate but injecting insulin into a nondiabetic is a life threatening situation. The overdose of insulin would pull all of the glucose from the bloodstream starving the cells/brain and could result in seizures and coma or cell death. Which is why hypoglycemia is so dangerous.

See if you can find a dose that avoids any and all lows and stick with that for a couple of days to see what kind of curve you then get.

Keep us posted,
Patty

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