Goodbye to My Murphy

[Eddie]

Re: Diabetic neuropathy in dogs

I would start to suspect that something else might be the cause of your dog's leg problems if he doesn't show signs of improvement as his BG numbers improve. You do say he is not regulated yet so I am not sure how far off regulation he is now.

Has your vet offered any views? Have you tried dosing him up (with the vet) with painkillers to see if it is pain related ie if you eliminate pain does he walk normally? Painkillers made no difference to our dog at all.

I don't know enough to answer your point about regeneration. With our dog it was as if the legs and tail end all went numb (eg he would lie on his tail in a really awkward and unusual way because he just couldn't feel it I think, as well as not being able to support himself on his legs or stand up) then gradually over at least two months the feeling returned and he regained control.

[momofdecker]

Re: Diabetic neuropathy in dogs

My dog Murphy was diagnosed in May of last year and his diabetes is still not regulated, started at 15 units and now is up to 23 units twice daily. His legs have gotten worse even though his numbers are getting better. Every one says it does get better but after 7 mos they haven't. Also once there is nerve damage from the neuropathy nerves do not regenerate so how do their legs get better? I am so afraid his legs will continue to get worse because there hasn't been any sign of improvement at all, in fact the opposite.

I apologize for responding to this thread again but I am unable to find a thread to reply to for this question....

I wonder if you can explain more about the leg problems Murphy has been having? Have you considered taking video and having a vet evaluate? I ask because my boy had problems with his rear legs following his overnight stay at his diagnosing vets. The weakness seemed to be on/off for some time. I forgot to mention that despite the weakness, it never did seem like he experienced numbness which some have reported with signs of neuropathy. Then we started seeing problems with what seemed to be weakness in his front legs as well. One example - he would go to get off our bed and stretch his back legs out with his front legs on the floor and his front legs would just give out - and he'd fall forward. We had no idea at the time what was going on - but again, it seemed to be more of a weakness than a numbness.

Shortly there after we started to hear his nails scrape as he walked and he looked a bit like a drunk dog - as his balance was off. Ultimately he was diagnosed with a neurological c1-c5 cervical (neck area) lesion which caused him spinal compression and impacted all four legs.

But in the beginning, and looking in hindsight, I suspect he suffered from muscle mass loss and joint pain - from undiagnosed hypothyroidism. About six months into his journey his lost his vision and it was around that same time we had him shaved down and his energy level and balance and everything else took a nose dive at the same time. We still had a month or so to go before his hypothyroidism was diagnosed.

Here is a video of him in mid-July. He'd been on thyroid meds for about three weeks. You can still see how weak he was - it took a good couple of months for him to re-gain his strength. Unfortunately, his balance and ability to walk never completely recovered and in Oct. we ended up taking him to a neurologist where his cervical lesion was diagnosed. I do think if he had not been blind, lethargic with muscle mass loss and joint pain that he may not have taken as many falls as he did before the hypothyroidism was diagnosed. And I do often wonder, because he fell forward when he fell, if one of those falls perhaps caused his cervical spinal lesion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPhflYiVY1I

This was mid-August. He had gained enough strength back to stay upright and his balance seemed better but his gait was still off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDrm5iUVlPM

[abdamurph]

Re: Diabetic neuropathy in dogs

The vet has evaluated Murphy and she is pretty sure the leg weakness is from the diabetes since he isn't regulated yet. It is only one back leg all the others are ok. It usually is worse in morning when he has slept on it all day and I usually massage when this is the case and it seems to help. He doesn't seem to be in pain but he is uncomfortable at times, he is on Deramaxx low dosage which seems to help also. We just upped his insulin from 21 to 23 units and will see how it goes from there.

[Eddie]

Re: Diabetic neuropathy in dogs

The only other thing you might look into is giving B12 methyl as a supplement.

Whso we gave him a big dose of B12 methyl to try to help his legs. When Eddie was bad,someone suggested that - and we felt we had little to lose (since the vet had quite wrongly told us that he had only 3 weeks to live due to a tumour which did not actually exist.... that was more than a year ago) .

We gave him a big dose of that and something helped him to get better. We will never know if it was getting his BG under control or the B12 methyl but it seemed unlikely to do any harm as they pee out any excess B12. (Needs to be B12 methyl and not B12 cobalamin). The vet had not come across it so we made up the dose ourselves.

[abdamurph]

Re: Diabetic neuropathy in dogs

How much approx do these injections cost? I'm already stretching my budget to cover his expenses and I am unemployed so I'm really having difficulty. Anything extra is very hard on me.

[Eddie]

Re: Murphy: Questions about Neuropathy, Bladder Infections

I just got some human tablets (not injections) from Amazon - we're in England but I think they are also available in the US. They were relatively inexpensive - I can't remember exactly but maybe about $10 for a pot of 30 tablets. They came in a synthetic strawberry flavour which is probably not ideal for a diabetic but we were getting pretty desperate so I didn't fret about things like that.
Our vet knew we were doing it and said that the human one per day dose would probably be ok. Because of our situation (with the vet having said we were about to lose him anyway) we gave him four a day as well as ordinary B12 supplements which he gets for his digestive problem - he had a LOT of B12 for a couple of months!
Antonia

[abdamurph]

How much B12 do I give my dog?

I want to start giving my dog B12 for his back leg weakness, I understand you can buy over the counter at drug stores but I have no idea what kind to buy or how much to give my 60 lb 10 yr old dog Murphy. The vet has never mentioned taking it so I don't want to ask her but I've read so many good things about it I want to try. Also do the injectables work better than the tablets? I understand there is sugar in this vitamin so will that hurt his glucose levels? Thx!

[momofdecker]

Re: How much B12 do I give my dog?

Here is a link to what we gave my boy. It's not where we purchased it as we found it locally - but shows you a visual.
http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/natur...s#.UuG3HhAo7IU

We simply put one tablet in each meal. Didn't see a rise in blood glucose from the tablet. Don't know if it ever helped. Know it never hurt.

I believe Eddie's mom may have used quite a bit more for Eddie. I'm sure she can provide you with more specifics as to what she tried.

[k9diabetes]

Re: Diabetic neuropathy in dogs

What you describe - weakness primarily in one leg - suggests something other than neuropathy being involved. Neuropathy nearly always affects the hind legs equally on both sides because it reflects lack of communication over the spinal cord before that point.

So if the problem is on one side, something else is likely involved.

Neuropathy could be layered over the top of whatever that is, making it worse / more pronounced. I have seen that occur in many dogs who have some other kind of neurological or orthopedic problem.

General practice vets' knowledge of these kinds of issues is typically extremely limited and often nonexistent. Do you have access for a consult with a neurologist or internal medicine specialist?

A neurologist can do many noninvasive, quick simple tests to isolate the potential cause of the leg weakness. I have worked with one with both our diabetic dog and the dog we have now and the difference between the diagnostic ability of the GP vet and the neurologist is huge.

Natalie

The vet has evaluated Murphy and she is pretty sure the leg weakness is from the diabetes since he isn't regulated yet. It is only one back leg all the others are ok. It usually is worse in morning when he has slept on it all day and I usually massage when this is the case and it seems to help. He doesn't seem to be in pain but he is uncomfortable at times, he is on Deramaxx low dosage which seems to help also. We just upped his insulin from 21 to 23 units and will see how it goes from there.

[Eddie]

Re: How much B12 do I give my dog?

We gave our dog a big dose on the basis that the vet had told us he had only three weeks to live and so we felt we had nothing to lose. We just made it up ourselves as I couldn't find any guidance and our vet had not used it as a supplement. Given that big caveat here is what we gave Eddie (63lbs or a bit less at that stage) -

Twice per day with meals - 2 x 5mg pills (We used human ones - Swanson Ultra methyl B12 from Amazon) so a total of 20mg per day. The suggested human dose is 5mg per day.

He also got occasional B12 injections from the vet and a daily B12 cyanocobalamin 500mcg pill as well. He was already having these due to a separate digestive problem.

We kept this up for about two months then gradually tailed it off as his legs got better. I don't think it made a huge difference to his BG but it was in the early days when we were still adjusting his insulin dose anyway so it was quite hard to tell.
We don't know if it made any difference to anything (though he's alive and well 14 months after the vet's dire prognosis).
Hope that helps - but do bear in mind that we were doing this without any real knowledge at all - and every dog can react to things differently!
Antonia

[abdamurph]

Alpha Lipoic Acid(ALA) for Dog Neuropathy

Has anyone had experience with this? Just had visit with my Vet and she said B12 tablets for dogs do absolutely nothing but she had heard about ALA helping and pulled up some research for me. Just wanted to know if anyone has used this and what their experience was with it, what dosage they used, etc.. Thanks!

[Rubytuesday]

Re: Alpha Lipoic Acid(ALA) for Dog Neuropathy

Hi there, and thank you for your thank you card. We live in such a digital world now and it is so nice to still get a card in the mail.

Not sure if I have ever shared the b12 info with you that I got through another group, but here it is:

From a published Japanese study:
New evidence suggests that oral B12 works as well as injections, according to a study published in the journal Blood. This verifies reports from Sweden dating from the 1970s that pernicious anemia, a disease of B12 deficiency, can be controlled with oral B12. (people with pernicious anemia lack the intrinsic factor).
But another form, methylcobalamin, may be the best of all. Research shows that this active form of B12 has the unique ability to provoke the regeneration of nerves without adverse side effects.

And this from another study, Division of Neurology, KingKhalid University Hospital, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia:
We studied the clinical and neurophysiological effects of methylcobalamin on patients with diabetic neuropathy. In a double-blind study, the active group showed statistical improvement in the somatic and autonomic symptoms with regression of signs of diabetic neuropathy.
Methylcobalamin,which is the neurologically active form of B12.This B12 facilitates methylation, the process that creates and maintains nerves and brain chemicals.


The clinical study concerning B12/folate lowering BS is from the European Journal of Endrocrinology:
CONCLUSIONS: Folate and vitamin B12 treatment improved insulin resistance and endothelial dysfunction, along with decreasing homocysteine levels, in patients with metabolic syndrome.
http://www.eje-online.org/content/151/4/483.abstract

Not sure where Murphy is in his regulation, but what will help him most, if it is diabetic neuropathy, is moving toward regulation.

I have no idea if your vet has experience with diabetes, but even folks who have vets experienced with diabetes seem to make better progress when numbers and curves are posted. There is so much collective experience here that we may be able to make suggestions to get you closer to regulation.

The best info for us to go on is a full 12 hr. curve after diet and insulin amount has been consistent for at least 3 days, 5 days being better.

To do a good curve you want to test right before food and insulin and then every 2 hrs. after that until the next meal time 12 hrs. later.

sorry to say I don't have any experience with ALA.

Tara

[abdamurph]

Re: Alpha Lipoic Acid(ALA) for Dog Neuropathy

Hi Tara, I have already done two glucose curves on Murphy the past two months and his numbers are still high so he is not regulated. I keep everything very consistent, times, feedings, insulin, etc. My Vet is very knowledgeable with Diabetes and she has, and is, treating many dogs with it. She thinks he may have some other underlying problem but we just don't know what at this point. He is up to 23 units twice daily so I'm keeping my fingers crossed for his next curve next week. The last curve numbers are below:
7:30 am - 391 (Before food and insulin)
9:30 am - 519 (After food and insulin)
11:30 am - 150
1:30 pm - 204
3:30 pm - 315
5:30 pm - 377
7:30 pm - 687 (Food and insulin given at 6:15 pm)

So that is where we are right now.
P.S. Glad you got the card!

[Rubytuesday]

Re: Alpha Lipoic Acid(ALA) for Dog Neuropathy

:
7:30 am - 391 (Before food and insulin)
9:30 am - 519 (After food and insulin)
11:30 am - 150
1:30 pm - 204
3:30 pm - 315
5:30 pm - 377
7:30 pm - 687 (Food and insulin given at 6:15pm)

That drop between 9:30 & 11:30 worries me. I wonder if it is that the food and insulin aren't balanced as well as could be and the body is over reacting to the sharp drop.

Can you tell us what he is eating?

When do you give the insulin?

Tara

[jesse girl]

Re: Alpha Lipoic Acid(ALA) for Dog Neuropathy

that 7:30 to 9:30 spike may have been a continuation from the early rise and may not be entirely be food as you can see in the pm the spike does not appear to be food because the spike was before food was consumed

it is possible your pup is getting to much insulin. big swings in blood sugar can point to that and raising the dose maybe going in the wrong direction .

if you continue to see deterioration in the numbers with each increase in dose it points to be most likely the dose is to much