Angel Penny 14 November 1998 – 18 January 2014

[Fiery_WA]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

So sorry Miss Penny is feeling badly. I am wondering if she is in pain? Do you have any meds for that?

Hopefully, she will get whatever it was out if her system and she will perk back up. Big hugs to you.

No meds for pain, unless she snuck in some water while I was asleep (I am running on fumes only 4 hours sleep), and unfortunately her water bowl looks untouched, in another two hours 24 hours will have passed without her drinking anything.

I did try a syringe and some water, early hours of this morning, just to try and keep her hydrated, she developed a case of bloody lock jaw, so I was squirting the water between her teeth, she got maybe 20ml in her.

Oh YAY, although yet again nothing eaten, I just heard her drink some water!!

Sadly though I think it is now getting to the stage, I am going to have to make the decision I really don't want to, and have her put to sleep.

[Judi]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

I'm glad she drank something. some people put tuna water in the water and get them to drink that way too.

[Fiery_WA]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

Just when I was about to give up all hope, Penny has bounced back with a passion!!!!!

Still having trouble in finding food that she will eat on regular basis, which is effecting her sugar levels.

The Vet said and I quote "If she eats in the morning full 16 units same in the evening, if she doesn't eat then 10 units"

She has never been a breakfast eater, and I am having a battle to find something she will eat both morning and night.

For breakfast for now she is eating Tuna or Pink Salmon in Springwater, the evenings are harder, she was eating Sausages, went off them. So I started cooking mince with a little stock, she has now gone off that to. For now she is back on the tinned My Dog, for how long who knows.

Took her to the Vet to get her levels done (keep in mind his advice if she eats 16 units). She ate her Tuna this morning, so I gave her the full 16 units. When she was tested her level was 3.6.

He asked how much Caninsulin I had given her and how much she had to eat.

She showed no signs of being hypoglycemic, quite the opposite, she had spring in her step, did donuts when I asked her when she wanted to come in the car with me.

When I asked the Vet how much food does she need to eat before being given the full 16 units, he said "your not a silly woman", I turned to him and said "No I am not, but nor am I a Vet, I need some guidance" To which I got none.

So my plan of attack is whether she eats or not in the morning 10 units, the evening if she eats a whole 400gm tin of My Dog 15 units.

She now weigh's 19kg's, I know what I feed her on a regular basis will determine her levels, but she has turned into a real fuss pot, what she eats one day, she turns her nose up the next day.

Any input would be appreciated.

Susan

[jesse girl]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

its hard to tell what dose would be correct with the change in food habits remember a lower glycemic food would reduce the need for insulin like protein and complex carbs

we usually give 1/4 of the normal dose when food is not given but some have gone as much as half at the high end . you are much more than that

i think its all a bit of guess work remember vets are not nutritionist or specialist they have a general knowledge of many things so many times you questions can go unanswered .

just to let you know my jesse only gets one meal a day and has been doing that for over 3 years and is doing great so it is an option if you can at least get one meal in a day

[k9diabetes]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

I'm glad to hear that Penny is fighting back and managing to feel better.

Approximately half of a dog's insulin goes to "basal" blood sugar - the blood sugar they maintain when no food is around. So insulin can be given without food.

How much insulin varies from dog to dog. Most often 1/4 of the usual dose is safe with no food and that's what I recommend if blood sugar is not being tested.

If they eat something in between zero food and a full meal, you can guestimate how much of the food was eaten and pick an amount of insulin in between somewhere.

Frankly, a lot of vets will not know how to answer that question. Many of them have been taught No Food, No Insulin. (Understandably, perhaps, from the perspective of no home monitoring of blood sugar levels.) There was so much fear about hypoglycemia that they were taught not to risk it.

Fortunately, that's changing over time as testing blood sugar at home becomes more common but it is slow.

To be safe, you can always go a bit less than 1/4 of the usual dose without food and see how she responds.

Natalie

[Fiery_WA]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

I'm glad to hear that Penny is fighting back and managing to feel better.

Approximately half of a dog's insulin goes to "basal" blood sugar - the blood sugar they maintain when no food is around. So insulin can be given without food.

How much insulin varies from dog to dog. Most often 1/4 of the usual dose is safe with no food and that's what I recommend if blood sugar is not being tested.

If they eat something in between zero food and a full meal, you can guestimate how much of the food was eaten and pick an amount of insulin in between somewhere.

Frankly, a lot of vets will not know how to answer that question. Many of them have been taught No Food, No Insulin. (Understandably, perhaps, from the perspective of no home monitoring of blood sugar levels.) There was so much fear about hypoglycemia that they were taught not to risk it.

Fortunately, that's changing over time as testing blood sugar at home becomes more common but it is slow.

To be safe, you can always go a bit less than 1/4 of the usual dose without food and see how she responds.

Natalie

Yes she is a little fighter , the twice daily injections seem to for the most part have leveled her levels.

I don't know whether it is because of her tenacity, but even with the low sugar level reading she had yesterday, as I said she showed no signs of being hypoglycemic, quite the opposite. She is my little freak of nature .

[Auddog]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

Yay!! I'm so happy that Penny is showing you that she feels better!!
I hope she keeps improving

[Fiery_WA]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

Well I have some what I think to be great news!!

I have thrown most of the Vet's advice out of the window. I have her eating twice a day for breakfast she gets a tin of Tuna or Salmon and 10 units, so far she is sticking with the My Dog tinned food for her evening meal 15 units.

Since being diagnosed with Diabetes, she had gone off her dog treats and milk. Today she had not one BUT two dog treats!, and three small drinks of milk.

<--- is doing the chicken dance!

[Judi]

Re: Penny newly diagnosed a few days ago

yay Penny!

[Fiery_WA]

Re: diabetic neuropathy in dogs

Wow the things you learn on this website!!

I have a question the Vet has been giving Penny B12 injections started off every two weeks, he has since gone to doing it weekly.

The thing I didn't realise was it for neuropathy, the Vet said it was for her liver.

What is the difference if any between B12 with intrinsic factor and B12 Methyl? Are they one thing or two?

Penny's levels appear to be leveling out (bare in mind she is only tested once a week), but the neuropathy (yes I learned a new word), I have seen go from good to bad.

I have just rung the Vet's office to see if I can get a hold of the B12 injection, so I can top her up when she is having a bad day. (A bad day for example is last night when she fell down the stairs to go potty outside).

I was also reading it can lead to restlessness particularly at night, painful neuropathy, this is Penny all over I put it down to perhaps her cancer.

[Eddie]

Re: diabetic neuropathy in dogs

My understanding is that there are three relevant forms of B12 supplementation.
1. B12 injections - big doses which are definitely absorbed in the body.
2. Oral B12 - some dogs cannot absorb enough B12 from their food or from plain B12 supplements. However if it is combined with "intrinsic factor" then most dogs can absorb it in tablet form.
3. B12 Methyl which is a slightly different tablet form which may help with diabetic neuropathy.

Our dog has a malabsorbtion problem (EPI) so he can't get enough B12 form food so he gets intermittent injections plus a daily B12 with intrinsic factor tablet.
When he had bad rear leg neuropathy due to diabetes we also gave him B12 methyl tablets. He needs a lot of B12 (and any excess gets peed out so it seems difficult to overdose).

Antonia

[Fiery_WA]

Re: diabetic neuropathy in dogs

My understanding is that there are three relevant forms of B12 supplementation.
1. B12 injections - big doses which are definitely absorbed in the body.
2. Oral B12 - some dogs cannot absorb enough B12 from their food or from plain B12 supplements. However if it is combined with "intrinsic factor" then most dogs can absorb it in tablet form.
3. B12 Methyl which is a slightly different tablet form which may help with diabetic neuropathy.

Our dog has a malabsorbtion problem (EPI) so he can't get enough B12 form food so he gets intermittent injections plus a daily B12 with intrinsic factor tablet.
When he had bad rear leg neuropathy due to diabetes we also gave him B12 methyl tablets. He needs a lot of B12 (and any excess gets peed out so it seems difficult to overdose).

Antonia

Can I pick your brains please Antonia, or whomever can answer the question ... how often were the intermittent injections? I want to push my Vet into helping Penny with her neuropathy, but I want to go in there armed with correct information.

The reason I opted for the B12 injections as opposed to the tablet form, is threefold, one I didn't realise there were different kinds of B12, two I am now over being scared of hurting Penny with her injection, and three THE BIGGEST PROBLEM, is Penny is also arthritic, we had her on tablets for a couple of months, is I cannot get a tablet down her throat (my fingernails are far too long) I tried cutting it up and hiding it in her food (pre diabetes) she would eat the food and leave the tablet. Crush it I hear you say, well for me personally that is an impossibility, I am a recovering Neurological Wilson's Disease sufferer, sufficed to say the Copper that made it's way to my brain, killed off parts of my brain, one of those being fine and gross motor co ordination skills.

My partner was delegated the role of giving her the tablet, which more often than not, she would somehow manage to spit out, and he get's frustrated when she does this, and when I ask him to do it for me.

[Eddie]

Re: diabetic neuropathy in dogs

Best to check with your vet but I think that the injection is not the methyl type of B12.
So if that is correct - it is then a question of you finding a way to get methyl tablets down if you want to pursue that. We do various things and I just thought I'd mention them in case there is anything that you haven't yet tried....
Mostly we just chuck then in with food and make sure the tablet is covered with something nice and damp eg tinned food.
Or we wrap the tablet in some cheddar type cheese and give it ina little parcel. All our dogs gulp the cheese so fast that they never notice there is a pill in it.
Or you might find that the methyl B12 pills will go soft in water so if you dampen your dog's food then drop the pill in, it might go soft and you can just mix it in with everything.
Or hide it in a small spoonful of tinned meat.

Or - we give all our dogs (3 getting on a bit and one younger one) a splash of fish oil with their food and I dribble the fish oil over any pills that are in their bowl. We started that mainly to see if it helped with Eddie's skin but we have noticed that it really does seem to have made a difference to the leg stiffness that two of them had when they first got up from lying down - so you might want to consider adding that to help with the arthritis. (I get arthritis myself and I do notice if I have a few days of not taking my daily cod liver oil pill, despite having my prescribed medication).
Hope some of that might help.....it's just our experience and observations.
Antonia

[Fiery_WA]

Re: diabetic neuropathy in dogs

Best to check with your vet but I think that the injection is not the methyl type of B12.
So if that is correct - it is then a question of you finding a way to get methyl tablets down if you want to pursue that. We do various things and I just thought I'd mention them in case there is anything that you haven't yet tried....
Mostly we just chuck then in with food and make sure the tablet is covered with something nice and damp eg tinned food.
Or we wrap the tablet in some cheddar type cheese and give it ina little parcel. All our dogs gulp the cheese so fast that they never notice there is a pill in it.
Or you might find that the methyl B12 pills will go soft in water so if you dampen your dog's food then drop the pill in, it might go soft and you can just mix it in with everything.
Or hide it in a small spoonful of tinned meat.

Or - we give all our dogs (3 getting on a bit and one younger one) a splash of fish oil with their food and I dribble the fish oil over any pills that are in their bowl. We started that mainly to see if it helped with Eddie's skin but we have noticed that it really does seem to have made a difference to the leg stiffness that two of them had when they first got up from lying down - so you might want to consider adding that to help with the arthritis. (I get arthritis myself and I do notice if I have a few days of not taking my daily cod liver oil pill, despite having my prescribed medication).
Hope some of that might help.....it's just our experience and observations.
Antonia

You have good dogs!! I have tried as I said cutting the arthritis tablets up, putting a piece of it in some tinned dog food also tried the cheese, she manages to eat the food and spit out the tablet. She is a little cow when it comes to tablets lol.

Footnote, prior to her being diagnosed with Diabetes and Cancer, because of the trouble of getting her take to take the tablet, I switched her over to injections, same cost, less fuss.

I have been using Cod Liver Oil on her food, but not Fish Oil, I might give that a whirl.

[Fiery_WA]

Re: diabetic neuropathy in dogs

Okay just got back from the Vet's, he wasn't in attendance, and one of his underlings had never heard ofB12 Methyl, she needed to research it and find out if it is available in Australia. It is, I figured she was embarrassed enough by having a client inform her of a supplement she new nothing about.

My next question is the "human" the same as is used for our four legged friends? Upon further reading I found that some B12 Methyl has xylito in them, which is fatal for animals.