Diabetes in Dogs: The k9diabetes.com Forum
 

Go Back   Diabetes in Dogs: The k9diabetes.com Forum > Diabetes Discussion: Your Dog

Diabetes Discussion: Your Dog Anything related to your diabetic dog.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #81  
Old 12-05-2017, 05:27 PM
Suzanne123's Avatar
Suzanne123 Suzanne123 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 17
Default Re: Vet concurs that NPH may be a problem: Back to 2X day diet

Wow, Riley is really cute. I have a shih-pooh who was recently diagnosed, 12 year old female.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 12-07-2017, 07:05 AM
MikeMurphy's Avatar
MikeMurphy MikeMurphy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Western New York
Posts: 774
Default Re: Vet concurs that NPH may be a problem: Back to 2X day diet

One more thought. Big swings in blood glucose can also be caused by her insulin dose being too high. A conservative Novolin N starting dose for a 12lb dog would be 2 to 2.5 units twice daily. I think you started out much higher and have been working your way down. Maybe, just maybe, this might be the case.

If all else fails, you could start over at 2 units, let it settle in for 5 days, do a 12 hour curve, evaluate the results and if necessary increase insulin in .5 unit increments.
__________________
Lily is a 62 lb English Setter, born 07-27-2007.
Diabetes: Aug 2013 - Hypothyroidism: Dec 2013 - Cataract Surgery: Feb 2014
Insulin: Novolin R/N mix - Meter: ReliOn Prime
Nulo Adult Trim Cod & Lentils, Pumpkin, FortiFlora, Dasuquin, Thyroxine
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 12-07-2017, 08:59 AM
bichons9's Avatar
bichons9 bichons9 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Buffalo, N.Y. via Hattiesburg, MS
Posts: 211
Default Re: Vet concurs that NPH may be a problem: Back to 2X day diet

WELL..I have tried everything else..maybe will try..starting tonight?? I suppose if it spikes, I should disregard for the first day or so???
__________________
Suzie, 10yo, chihuahua, diagnosed D.M. 8/3/2017started NPH..Lantus..Vetsulin.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1091352167
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 12-07-2017, 09:15 AM
bichons9's Avatar
bichons9 bichons9 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Buffalo, N.Y. via Hattiesburg, MS
Posts: 211
Default Re: Vet concurs that NPH may be a problem: Back to 2X day diet

I don't totally understand how the decreased carbs cause this but have returned to Rubie Stewbie without adding additional chicken/turkey.Is the following enough carbs/fiber, etc? We deleted the 1 bag (4 pounds) chana dal, rinsed and 2 bags (16 ounces each) frozen crinkle cut carrots because she spit them out..hope we didn't cause problems by doing this Because this diet became do popular. I have asked (Janice) that a nutritionist be hired to evaluate the diet!!!! My dogs love it but should have lost some weight and have not..It is listed at 265 cal/cup??? We can't get to that number though..and have spent HOURS calculating and weighing each component more than once. I hope the food is not causing the problems for Suzie!!

28 cups water
2 bags (1 pound each) brown lentils, rinsed
2 bags (1 pound each) black-eyed peas, rinsed
2 bags (1 pound each) green split peas, rinsed
1 pound pearl barley, rinsed
5 pounds boneless chicken breasts, cut into -inch cubes
1 pound ground turkey (jennie-O)
2 bags (16 ounces each) frozen broccoli cuts
2 bags (16 ounces each) frozen green beans
2 packages (10 ounces each) frozen chopped spinach
__________________
Suzie, 10yo, chihuahua, diagnosed D.M. 8/3/2017started NPH..Lantus..Vetsulin.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1091352167

Last edited by bichons9; 12-07-2017 at 09:17 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 12-07-2017, 01:15 PM
Raysaint's Avatar
Raysaint Raysaint is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Toronto
Posts: 845
Default Re: Vet concurs that NPH may be a problem: Back to 2X day diet

The lentils, peas and barley will provide carbs and fiber. Looks like it'll be about 30% of the total ingredients. As a percent of the recipe, more math would need to be done. But those are good carbs and will help.

Decreased carbs can cause rebounding because carbs balance out the insulin. Without carbs, the insulin has nothing to stop it from just bringing down the blood sugar sooner than later.
__________________
Riley, 8 yr. old maltipoo, 25 lbs., diagnosed Feb 2017, taking thyroid meds, had pancreatitis and DKA mid March, eating Wellness Senior formula can food. NPH dosage now at 9.0 units Humulin N. Adding either pumpkin, spinach, blueberries, yams, or green beans to his food. Also omega-3 oil.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 12-08-2017, 05:08 AM
Scooterspal's Avatar
Scooterspal Scooterspal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 150
Default Re: Vet concurs that NPH may be a problem: Back to 2X day diet

For what it's worth, when Scooter was first diagnosed this September I was so distraught and confused I was going to try cooking up fresh meals twice a day.

Now, I don't know how to cook so already, I was in trouble. I quickly realized that was not going to work. No way I could keep it up and with Scooter being a picky eater, more likely he was either not going to eat at all or even if he did, would not be getting all the nutrients he needed and that a commercial diet provided.

I soon went back to his regular dog food (see below) but I upped the amount of dry rolled oats (old fashion oatmeal) he got each meal to four tablespoons. He's small, so this was plenty.

Now, he's getting 16 grams of added carbs (4 grams per tbsp) in each meal twice per day... and they are low glycemic so easy on the BC. No added cholesterol, no added sodium. Oats are also fantastic for digestion, keeping his rather delicate (he has IBD) system in check.

The best part is, he loves it mixed with his food and he cleans the bowl every time. For me, it cannot be any easier. Now, I can concentrate on watching his levels, knowing he has fully eaten every meal.

Just my two cents.
__________________
Diagnosed 9/15/17. A 17 lb. terrier mutt, 15 years old. My bestest friend. Novolin N 6U, Novolin R 3U, 2X/day. Cesar Classics 3.5 oz. packets w/ 4 tbsps of old fashion Quaker Oats, 2x day. Probiotic every 3 or 4 days. Omega 3, two 300 mg. capsules 1X/day for skin. Occuguard Plus, Billberry, Lutein, Vit E, Vit C every meal for eyes.

Last edited by Scooterspal; 12-08-2017 at 06:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 12-08-2017, 11:24 PM
bichons9's Avatar
bichons9 bichons9 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Buffalo, N.Y. via Hattiesburg, MS
Posts: 211
Default Re: Vet concurs that NPH may be a problem: Back to 2X day diet

Well Raysaint, jesse girl, and Mike...Please do not give up on people like me...If someone can tell me exactly what to feed Suzie, I will try it= a recipe with amounts-times..I am beyond trying to figure this out. JoAnne (not Janice) suggested that I might have screwed the recipe by leaving out the Indian food=chana dal. I have ordered the Lantus because if her BG doesn't get a little better, it's time (as Amy Dunn shared with me) to try something else. I have read all of the negative "concerns" by experts and they may be absolutely right..BUT why are so many dogs so out of control with the BG? It is clearly explained that NPH does not last long enough and should be given (for the most part) 3X/day to be effective. Does anyone look at Suzie's BG chart or curve THINKING IT IS OKAY? DVM's order NPH because it's safest for preventing hypoglycemia and it's cheap (stated by DVM). I will hate myself if I cause harm to Suzie and will not start Lantus without the DVM guidance.And of course sleep time for me will be over as it was with the cat..Please tell me what you all know. I would like the problem to be the diet or too much insulin. However, as soon as I lowered the insulin (per DVM and Mike suggestion) it spiked 500. I don't know how you all know the grams and oats, etc..You are experts and I am far from it. Suzie weighs 12.3-12.5 lbs, We fed her for ideal wght 10 lbs at FIRST 1 c Rubie Stewbie by hand (refused all dog food) Frank added a few bits of additional chicken breast which I stopped. He is not a medical person and didn't understand. Then we switched to 3 meals/day based on a member's claiming she lets her dog graze all day..That did not work. Then we went back to 2 meals/day. Then went for consult with DVM (who contacted his endocrine friend) suggested all looks fine but try giving her more meat and less carbs. "Feeding her less will not starve of hurt her" So, Frank made the usual 14 qts Rubie Stewbie but deleted 1/4 of 1/3 cup replacing it with chicken or Jennie o turkey at each meal. Nothing has gotten better. IMO worse. Sooo..if the diet or insulin dosage is the problem, can someone please tell me an acceptable diabetic dog diet and /or Shall I lower the NPH even if the BG hits 500? THANKS FOR READING..SUZIE'S BG CURVE:11/14-12/8:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=290160427
__________________
Suzie, 10yo, chihuahua, diagnosed D.M. 8/3/2017started NPH..Lantus..Vetsulin.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1091352167
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 12-09-2017, 12:04 AM
bichons9's Avatar
bichons9 bichons9 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Buffalo, N.Y. via Hattiesburg, MS
Posts: 211
Default Re: Vet concurs that NPH may be a problem: Back to 2X day diet

so the added oatmeal helped..adding the extra carbs helped regulate BG?? And how did you decide on oats? It sounds good except Suzie will not eat the dog foods prescribed, regular..but I could add it to her present diet..I guess..Maybe i do not have the right carbs..Soluble?..insoluble? I read somewhere that dogs (in study) did better when given diet with INSOLUBLE carbs???????? I don't get that at all!!!
__________________
Suzie, 10yo, chihuahua, diagnosed D.M. 8/3/2017started NPH..Lantus..Vetsulin.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1091352167
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 12-09-2017, 05:20 AM
Scooterspal's Avatar
Scooterspal Scooterspal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 150
Default Re: Vet concurs that NPH may be a problem: Back to 2X day diet

I'm not a vet so I cannot give out medical advice. I will tell you what I'm doing with my dog and hope some of that information can help guide you, but the decisions need to be yours.

Scooter has been getting the oatmeal for some time. Long before the diabetes diagnosis. You can read his story, here.

http://www.canine-IBD.com

Since it happens to be a good source of carbs AND low glycemic, I simply upped the amount he was receiving for each meal. I cannot say it helps regulate his levels but it appears to not throw them off, either.

Does your dog go out for walks at all. Does she get daily exercise? Keeping Scooter active works to keep him on track... makes him hungry for his meals. We walk twice a day, every day. Morning and evening. He looks forward to that.

I'm not convinced home cooked meals are the way to go. Others here will disagree. If it works for them, great. I see it as to much of a variable. Something hard to repeat, meal after meal... and repeatability is the name of the game with diabetes. Just giving the wrong treat can set you back.

Draw a line through your chart at the 250 mark. You want to be below this for most of the day. Clearly, you are not regulated yet with Suzie. You test most days at 6am and again at 8am. Are you feeding and injecting between those times?

I try to test Scooter each day, as follows:

1:00 am
5:30 am
10:00 am
2:00 pm
5:30 pm
9:00 pm

I miss a few, especially if his levels are OK... But the big ones are 1:00am and 5:30am in the morning. I never miss those two.

My chart looked much as yours does before my vet suggested I also inject Novolin R. I had very similar highs until I added the R twice a day. The R gave me the control that was lacking with injecting Novolin N, alone.
__________________
Diagnosed 9/15/17. A 17 lb. terrier mutt, 15 years old. My bestest friend. Novolin N 6U, Novolin R 3U, 2X/day. Cesar Classics 3.5 oz. packets w/ 4 tbsps of old fashion Quaker Oats, 2x day. Probiotic every 3 or 4 days. Omega 3, two 300 mg. capsules 1X/day for skin. Occuguard Plus, Billberry, Lutein, Vit E, Vit C every meal for eyes.

Last edited by Scooterspal; 12-09-2017 at 09:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 12-09-2017, 06:05 AM
MikeMurphy's Avatar
MikeMurphy MikeMurphy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Western New York
Posts: 774
Default Re: Vet concurs that NPH may be a problem: Back to 2X day diet

I think you should really talk to your vet about this, but to me it looks like Suzie may be getting too much insulin and experiencing Somogyi Rebound.

http://www.caninediabetes.org/pdorg/somogyi.htm

Rebound can happen when her BG drops too low or when there is a fast drop in BG. Suzie may be reacting to the fast drop.

With Suzie’s ideal weight at 10 pounds, her starting dose of Novolin N should have been 10 x .2 = 2 units twice daily. I think your vet started her at 6 units and you have been working her down and are currently at 4 units.

If it were me, I would think it’s time for a restart just to rule out Rebound by starting at 2 units, let her body adjust for 5 to 7 days, do a 12 hour curve, evaluate the results, and then if necessary, increase insulin by .5 units and repeat the process until you get acceptable numbers.

The important thing is not to react to high BG numbers when starting over. Let her body adjust to the new dose and then evaluate after 5 to 7 days.

P.S. Like her new avatar. Very pretty girl!
__________________
Lily is a 62 lb English Setter, born 07-27-2007.
Diabetes: Aug 2013 - Hypothyroidism: Dec 2013 - Cataract Surgery: Feb 2014
Insulin: Novolin R/N mix - Meter: ReliOn Prime
Nulo Adult Trim Cod & Lentils, Pumpkin, FortiFlora, Dasuquin, Thyroxine

Last edited by MikeMurphy; 12-09-2017 at 06:21 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:58 PM.


Disclaimer -- The content on this site is provided for informational and educational purposes only. While we make every effort to present information that is accurate and reliable, the views expressed here are not meant to be a substitute for the advice provided by a licensed veterinarian. Please consult with your veterinarian for specific advice concerning the medical condition or treatment of your pet and before administering any medication or pursuing any course of treatment that you may read about on this site.

The views and opinions expressed by contributors to this forum are strictly their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and views of the owners, administrators, or moderators of this forum and the k9diabetes.com website.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2009, 2010 k9diabetes.com. All rights reserved.