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Old 11-18-2015, 01:15 PM
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MomofGus MomofGus is offline
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Default Gus, the mini-schnauzer an Angel March 7, 2018

I have been lurking on your forum since Sept. after my 8.5 yr old schnauzer, Gus, was diagnosed. His diagnosis came about after he started urinating during his sleep at night. At that time, I took a urine sample to my vet, who happened to be out sick that day. Since he wasn’t there, they couldn’t run test and just gave me antibiotics. After 5 days on that, he was still urinating while sleeping, so I had to find another vet in town since my vet ended up in hospital and was going to be out for some time. It was at this visit that bloodwork & urinalysis determined high sugar, and pancreatic lipase was positive. He was kept for 4 days and started on Vetsulin. (Sugar was 684) After 4 days, and no satisfactory response on Vetsulin (with different unit amounts), this vet pretty much sent me home with no explanation of diabetes, how to administer, what to watch for, and sent home Vetsulin, syringes and new food (Hills Metabolic). If no results in couple more days, he wanted to send to specialists for expensive tests, and didn’t even want to try human insulin. And, the fact that he was trying to get him to respond asap and get stable indicated to me he didn’t know too much about diabetes. So, I was unhappy with how he handled things that I sought another opinion with the only other vet in my small town. She was very informative. She kept him Vetsulin for another 10 days and it was obvious that he wasn’t going to respond to it. We then switched to Novolin N, and food to Hills W/D. He started out on 10 units of Novolin N twice a day, and after 2 months of curves and rechecks, he is on 13 units twice a day. Three weeks ago, we thought he was finally where he needed to be and was finally down from the 500’s into the low 200’s with couple drops into the 100’s. Yeah…so I thought. That only lasted 2-3 days, and started going back up into the 300-400’s. This past week he was up in the 500’s. Yesterday, he was off the meter that it just said “hi”, then when I rechecked another hour, it was 759. To the vet we go, and it was determined he has urinary infection causing the rise in sugar. Note that there were no outward signs of anything going on (no real increase in thirst or change in behavior). So, antibiotics prescribed and will recheck in 2 weeks. She said not to worry about the hi readings right now until we get the infection cleared up (unless there is any outward signs of pain or change in behavior), and then we would see where he’s at with his numbers and possibly up the insulin even further

Here are his basic stats: Male – neutered, 8.5 yrs old minischnauzer
Food – Hills dry W/D, c twice/day with 1 tblsp canned W/D; snacks (if any) frozen green bean or two – Every 12 hrs on the nose.
Starting weight 24.9 #, current weight 22 # - goal is to 20# (per vet)
Using AlphaTrak 2 meter & strips
Novolin N – 13 units twice day (starting dose 10 units twice day) (injected immediately after his 2 meals)

Curves are done at home every 10 days (after each increase in insulin dosage). The vet is given the curve every time I do one and she has been pleased with his progress. I also check morning fasting rate regularly, and sometimes mid-day after 6 or 7 hrs. We are upping his food amount to 2/3 c dry instead of c as of yesterday. I keep a journal of every day's readings, injection sight location, behavior and anything else I feel may be important, and I take the journal with me each time to the vet.

I guess I finally decided to post, just to get his info on here. We’ve been at this since his diagnosis on Sept. 14, 2015. I know it takes some time for some dogs to get regulated. After 2 months, I would like to see more progress with his regulation. It may be such he has other issues going on, but for now, she feels he just needs a little more time. If it wasn't for the urinating in his sleep, I would have not known he had this issue going on.

Last edited by MomofGus; 11-18-2015 at 01:17 PM. Reason: take out extra spacing
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Old 11-18-2015, 01:54 PM
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Default Re: Gus-Newly Diagnosed mini-schnauzer

Welcome to you and Gus. Glad you have posted such a complete report.

Diabetics are prone to infections (UTI, ear, teeth) because of the glucose that feeds it. If you increase the insulin during an infection, be mindful that you might need to reduce the dosage as the infection clears.

You have undoubtedly read "every pup is different", but if you've increased his meal size you might need to increase the insulin also. I don't have w/d feeding recommendations handy. Is 2/3 cup about what the recommendations are? Aren't you also trying to get Gus down to 20 pounds?

Getting you Novolin-N from Walmart for $25/vial? You also switched to U-100 syringes when you switched from Vetsulin?

Craig
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Old 11-18-2015, 02:02 PM
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Default Re: Gus-Newly Diagnosed mini-schnauzer

Yes, we are getting Novolin from Walmart and the correct U100 syringes for the Novolin as well. I asked the vet if I could add a little more food since recommendation for weight loss is 1-3/4 cup/day to 2-1/2 c day for weight loss. He was only getting 1 cup total/day and since he'd lost weight and I could see change in skin and see his ribs more, I wanted to give him a little more food - more towards maintenance. I was happy with his weight because he is a stocky pup, but she still wants couple more pounds gone. So, we will follow what she says.
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Old 11-18-2015, 03:40 PM
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Default Re: Gus-Newly Diagnosed mini-schnauzer

sounds like things are going more in a positive direction

hope the higher sugar is being caused by the UTI and most likely it is

most see sugar come down quite quickly after starting antibiotics if not the antibiotics may not be working for that particular bug

its amazing how blood sugar can tell you more than just what level its at if you understand your pups trends

very early into this and already gaining knowledge

if sugar is real high for a bit you may want to keep an eye on ketones
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Old 11-18-2015, 10:34 PM
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Default Re: Gus-Newly Diagnosed mini-schnauzer

Welcome to you and Gus! Little known fact is that many schnauzers are trickier to regulate and may require more insulin than "normal" - this has to do with their naturally high triglycerides from my understanding. It is not impossible - we have had many here who got on my the right track but it took some time and tinkering to find a formula that worked. To lower triglycerides, you might try a fish oil which is primarily Omega 3. We use Grizzley brand. It does give stinky beard but seems to work well.
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Old 11-19-2015, 03:20 AM
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Default Re: Gus-Newly Diagnosed mini-schnauzer

Hello and welcome!

You may just find that the antibiotics fix whatever it is even if it is not really possible to know what is actually going on.

When our dog was first diagnosed he kept running a temperature (suggesting an infection) for no obvious reason. Putting him on antibiotics got it back to normal and it would go up again when we stopped the antibiotics. He was on them for many weeks in the first four months or so and we never did find out what was really going on. It gradually settled down and he has rarely needed to go back on them.

As the others have said, it's early days and it is a bit of a process to sort out the right dose but it sounds as if you have a good understanding of how it all works.
Antonia
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Old 11-19-2015, 07:19 AM
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Default Re: Gus-Newly Diagnosed mini-schnauzer

Quote:
Originally Posted by amydunn19 View Post
Welcome to you and Gus! Little known fact is that many schnauzers are trickier to regulate and may require more insulin than "normal" - this has to do with their naturally high triglycerides from my understanding. It is not impossible - we have had many here who got on my the right track but it took some time and tinkering to find a formula that worked. To lower triglycerides, you might try a fish oil which is primarily Omega 3. We use Grizzley brand. It does give stinky beard but seems to work well.

Thank you, Amy. I had not read that anywhere about schnauzers being harder to regulate. I'm just so glad I got a second opinion and have a vet who didn't give up so quickly and knowing it takes time to regulate. I will keep that in mind about the fish oil. Do you think it would be beneficial to him at this early stage? I'm hesitant to add anything without my new vet approving. I talked to her the other day about maybe adding more fiber, such as a little bit of pumpkin. She said to be very careful with any fiber supplement, especially if sugar free because some now has Xylitol which is known to be lethal to dogs. I only asked about a little more fiber because his stools seem hard and sometimes strains to go. But, I'm also wondering if the frozen green beans would serve as extra fiber.

And, thanks to this great forum, I have been able to gain knowledge that I would otherwise not have had, and it's enabled me to know things to talk to the vet about. I didn't have any insight about canine diabetes until I started reading here.
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Old 11-19-2015, 03:40 PM
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Default Re: Gus-Newly Diagnosed mini-schnauzer

Fish oil doesn't seem to affect my dog at all. My schnauzer is non-diabetic but I know how prone they are to it.
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Old 11-22-2015, 02:54 PM
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Default Re: Gus-Newly Diagnosed mini-schnauzer

Just a quick update. Today is day 5 of being on antibiotics for Gus's urinary infection. So, I decided to do a mid-day sugar check. To my surprise it was still high - 706. The last couple of days I did mid-day checks and was in the upper 400's. It's amazing to me how he doesn't exhibit any symptoms of having such high numbers, such as drinking a lot. I'd hoped that the meds would have improved his numbers a little bit more.
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Old 11-22-2015, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Gus-Newly Diagnosed mini-schnauzer

If you upped his food amount, did you raise his dose? I didn't read back to see if that was addressed but any increase in food would warrant an increase in insulin.

Also, with numbers that high, have you checked for ketones in his urine? Might be worth getting some test sticks.
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