Sammie Addisons/Diabetes

[heinzle]

Wow. You just found the other rare dog with both Addison's and diabetes! I am feeling your pain as far as trying to regulate our dogs. Sammie (my 6 year old Golden Retriever mix) was just diagnosed with Diabetes on June 1st and then Addison's June 13th. From what I have learned in the last short month is 1) Percoten is the way to go! 2) Trying to get the prednisone dosage AND the Percoten dosage to their lowest effective doses are worth the extra work. 3) Prednisone affects blood glucose by raising the glucose thus requiring more insulin.

I learned the first two on the Addison's Yahoo Group page and the last one through extensive research AND some personal experience. Sammie is currently getting 2 ml Percoten injected by me every 28 days (lowered from 2.2 ml after her 2nd shot) and 2.5 mg pred every morning. I tried lowering her pred this last week and it resulted in her BG dropping dangerously low. Because I'm not seeing any side effects from her taking 2.5 mg Pred every day I have decided to just keep it there for a month as well as her current food intake and try to get a good read on her insulin needs. We currently have her at 18 units 2x/day Humulin N after dropping her from 20 units 2x/day due to her drop.

I am able to test at home thank God! I was worried about 3 urine tests showing negative glucose in a row and yesterday morning I tested her blood and she was at 24 - after I had just given her her 20 units an hour earlier!!! I shoved a bunch of food/treats toward her which she ate and was at 295 3 hours later. Fine!!

I plan on doing a curve Sunday after her body is settled on the 18 units and no other changes.

[CarolW]

Re: Sammie - 6 year old Golden Retriever mix

Wow; you really do have your hands full - but it also seems - you're up to the challenge! I'm sitting here admiring you and your dog, and the other Addisons/diabetes dog, too - (I've forgotten the names, but can look it up later).

I'll be watching and cheering you on! I'm VERY grateful for the information you're providing, as it's likely to help quite a few people, in the long run!

So, a Big, Fat welcome to you and Sammie!

Wed, 20 Jul 2011 18:50:38 (PDT)

[heinzle]

Re: Sammie - 6 year old Golden Retriever mix

Thanks Carol. Good to be here! Sammie definitely picked the right owner in me. My parents have threatened to take me off their living will as an executor because "I refuse to let anything/anybody die". I don't think they understand that Sammie is only 6 years old!! That would be like letting them die at 45 or 50 because of some stupid disease that's very manageable.

[k9diabetes]

Re: Sammie - 6 year old Golden Retriever mix

It sounds like you are getting things well in hand - congratulations!!

Goodness... I certainly wouldn't let Sammie die over a little diabetes and Addison's disease! Our dog was a senior when he was diagnosed and diabetes was the least of his problems - hardly a problem at all once we figured out how to manage him.

With blood sugar so low, I would always start with syrup to keep it from dropping any further and then add food, which will take a while to digest. You may have done that but I just wanted to mention it.

Perhaps the two of you can write the book for dogs with diabetes and Addison's!

Some people have struggled with the idea of giving prednisone to a diabetic dog - they couldn't see that it was replacing a necessary substance that was missing. It was sad to me to see them refusing to give pred when their dogs so desperately needed it...

So you two can help a lot of dogs in the future by sharing your experiences.

Natalie

[heinzle]

Re: Sammie - 6 year old Golden Retriever mix

Thanks Natalie. I will be more than willing to share my insight once I have a grasp of it myself :-) I couldn't agree more about the Prednisone. Yes, it raises BG's but if it's needed, it's needed. Deal with it and move on. I am definitely hoping to half the dosage after a month but she's fine until then :-)

[janspack]

Re: Sammie - 6 year old Golden Retriever mix

Thanks Natalie. I will be more than willing to share my insight once I have a grasp of it myself :-) I couldn't agree more about the Prednisone. Yes, it raises BG's but if it's needed, it's needed. Deal with it and move on. I am definitely hoping to half the dosage after a month but she's fine until then :-)

It sounds as though you are doing everything right for Sammie. I have an Addison's dog and I have a Diabetic dog but haven't had to deal with both in the same dog thank goodness.

My ADog is on Florinef because I'm in the UK and Percorten isn't readily available over here. He is 10 now and was diagnosed when he was barely 3 years old. He is very easy to manage and I have to remind myself sometimes that he has Addison's. Luckily, there is a small amount of cortico-steroid in Florinef so he doesn't often need the Prednislone - only when he is going to be exposed to more stress than usual - be that good stress or bad. He continued to compete in Obedience shows for several years after we got him stable and did pretty well at it too.

Good luck in getting the diabetes and Addison's stabilised - I'm sure you will with all the help you will get from both this forum and the Addison's list on Yahoo. I don't belong to that one now as it is geared mostly to dogs on Percorten. A friend and I started an Addison's UK group a couple of years ago to try to help those people in the UK who use Florinef.

I've just started to get my diabetic dog restabilised after being diagnosed with Hypothyroid a week or so ago. It's pretty worrying when one disease has so much effect on the other but with the help of this forum, we are getting there at last.

[heinzle]

Insulin/Feeding

Curious. I am currently giving Sammie her shot at the same time she's eating (while she's distracted). I'm getting scary low readings 5 to 6 hours after her shot and wonder if the insulin is beating the food.

While I know every dog is different, I am curious what the majority of you with regulated dogs have been doing. Insulin at the same time as feeding, 30 minutes after eating, what? I am using Humulin N by the way.

Here are the readings I had today if it helps:

6:30 am 229 (fed and gave 18 units Humulin N)
9:30 am 127
12:00 pm 42 (this was right after a walk and 10 minutes swimming in the pool - I have her a treat!)
1:30 pm 83
6:30 pm 246 (fed and gave her only 16 units Humulin N)

Thanks in advance for your answers and any insight!

Karen and Sammie

[heinzle]

Re: Sammie - 6 year old Golden Retriever mix

Thanks Jan! Yes, it does seem Addison's is MUCH easier to manage than Diabetes. Sorry you can't get your hands on Percoten - it really seems to be a wonder drug but I see many members doing well with the Florinef. Best of luck to you!

Karen & Sammie

[Trace65]

Re: Insulin/Feeding

I always give Ginger half of her food and while she is eating I get her shot ready. I wait about 15 minutes after she eats and while she is eating the second half I give her the insulin shot. It seems to keep her from gobbling all the food at one time and it still keeps us within a 30 minute time period. Beginning to end 20 minutes.

[Patty]

Re: Insulin/Feeding

Karen,
It looks like the activity pushed her numbers lower during the time her insulin is most active. I'd give the treat before the exercise and see if that helps.

You could also try giving her shot 15 to 30 min after she eats and see if that helps slow the midday drop.

Patty

[k9diabetes]

Re: Insulin/Feeding

Five to six hours is a very typical lowest point for the blood sugar so pretty normal.

I'd bet it was the exercise that really dropped her blood sugar. That's very common. It would be good to avoid exercise at the typical point of lowest blood sugar.

If you can do a curve on a day without exercise that would tell you what her food and insulin are doing (by dropping the exercise variable, you can see the food/insulin interaction more directly) and whether a little tweaking is needed to flatten out her curve.

The curve will also tell you when low blood sugar is most likely to occur and therefore time exercise or show you that you might need to give a snack prior to exercise if it can't be timed differently.

If the low blood sugar still shows up at 5-6 hours even without exercise, then you are seeing strong insulin activity at that time, probably long after the food has been digested, converted to sugar and used up. In which case a small adjustment in injection time isn't likely to change it. A little less insulin and/or a small mid-day meal can help that kind of curve. Also a bit more carbs with the meal can help use up some of the insulin so it isn't sitting around waiting to cause trouble later.

We would need the exercise-free curve to get a better idea of whether there's a problem and how any problem that does show up might be solved.

Natalie

[heinzle]

Food to flatten curves?

So, my Golden Retriever, Sammie, just got diagnosed with diabetes June 1, 2011 and is currently eating Purina One Beyond Chicken & Whole Wheat. 26% Protein, 17% Fat & 4% Fiber. I don't see any sugar sources in the ingredients.

She needed to gain weight after losing 20 pounds (70 lbs to 51 lbs) so I was looking for something somewhat healthy that she loves to eat and Purina One fit the bill! She's now at 65 lbs so I feel okay changing foods if necessary. She has no signs of PU/PD and seems very happy on 16 units Humulin N 2x day for the last 2 weeks.

Sammie's curves seem pretty deep and I'm wondering if a different food will help flatten out the curve. I recall Blue Buffalo Weight Management being mentioned as a good choice for diabetic dogs. 22% Protein, 8% Fat & 4% Fiber.

Has anybody had good success altering curves with this food? Any other recommendations?

[Abby's Mom]

Re: Food to flatten curves?

Welcome to the forum.

From what I have been told, insulin and food go hand and hand, and finding the right combination is key.

Originally my vet suggested a Fat content under 10%, and I can see from your posting that the Purina One Beyond Chicken & Whole Wheat. is 17% Fat & 4% Fiber. The fat appears to be on the high end, but the Buffalo Weight Management is certainly below that amount at 8%.

I believe there are some on this forum that actually use the Buffalo Weight Management, and perhaps they will post as to the success they have had with it.

[heinzle]

Re: Food to flatten curves?

That's interesting about the under 10% fat content. Good to know! Thanks for sharing your knowledge on this...

[k9diabetes]

Re: Sammie - Food to flatten curves?

Diet and/or the timing of food and insulin definitely can flatten out a curve that's too deep or tame a post-meal spike in blood sugar.

A lot depends on the curve... if the blood sugar is dropping very sharply right after food and insulin, then adding some readily digestible food like white rice can provide some glucose in the first hour or two after eating, stopping that kind of drop.

If the drop is much later in the curve, such as at 6-8 hours, changing the content of the food may not be enough to flatten that kind of curve and a mid-day snack would be the way to go.

I haven't looked yet to see if you have posted any curves... if you haven't, please do post the most recent ones so we can see more detail and when the drop is occurring.

Natalie