Newly diagnosed and struggling

[Mystii]

Indy was diagnosed as diabetic on Saturday with a bg of 420. We've had her since she was 8 weeks old and she's now 6 1/2, so we're pretty familiar with her behavior and patterns. She ate the mix of wet and dry Glycobalance the vet sold us on Saturday night, but not even close to half a daily serving. Yesterday and today she has completely turned her nose up at nearly everything. Obviously, I've been unable to give her insulin.

She has been eating Beneful Incredibites since she was a puppy. Even mixing just a little Glycobalance with the Incredibites didn't tempt her. She's treat oriented and well house trained but I know the treats she was getting are not good for her diabetes. Once in a while now, we can give her a small plain milk bone but she's been turning her nose up at those. She's had too much table food during her life, and my mother living here for the past two years with her dog is not helping that I finally had to tell her Saturday, "absolutely no table food".

I've read that when dogs get hungry they'll eat, but how long does that take? I've left the food out for 30 minutes, then I pick it up. I know she's not used to having her meals regulated like that (we've always left her food out and she ate when she wanted) and she's used to getting much tastier treats throughout the day when she's good, but what do I do? I do have a call into the vet's office, but just found out that my vet isn't in today and the'll have someone call me back at "their earliest convenience". Who knows when that will be.

Over the past two days, I'm starting to see behavior changes. She's trembling a lot, not happy at all, her paws are very warm (but she didn't have a temp on Friday when she was tested) and instead of cuddling much, as she usually does, she's been spending a lot of time on the cool kitchen floor.

I don't know if any of the following is relevant but I've not had a chance to ask anyone and don't know... Indy is a grass eater. She always has been. She is picky and likes a particular type of grass (who knows what kind LOL) and doesn't eat much at any time and doesn't vomit it. Recently, we had our lawn treated for weeds. I suspect many of our neighbors do too, looking at their lawns. I looked up the chemical used and there's nothing about ingesting smaller doses. Am I grasping at straws to wonder if that's causing any of this?

I do have an AlphaTrak II ordered that is supposed to be here today and I'll be doing a glucose curve here at home rather than the vets. I have no idea right now what her numbers are... I can just say that her thirst and peeing are incredibly out of control.

One other question. The vets instructions say that she should have a "fasted glucose curve" done in 7-10 days. Doesn't fasting defeat the purpose of seeing how the food and insulin affect the blood glucose?

Any suggestions, especially on the food / treat issue?

[Raysaint]

Re: Newly diagnosed and struggling

Welcome, and I feel your pain. I've been working on regulating my dog for 2.5 months now since diagnosis, and it's been frustrating. Lots to learn, but the main thing I have learned is to be methodical, meaning don't focus on numbers and try to correct. Stick with an insulin dosage for a week, do a curve, then adjust insulin for another week, repeat. It can take a while because consistency in readings is hard to achieve at first. Your expectations will drive you crazy.
As for the food thing, you have the option of researching a food that comes close to the vet foods, close in fiber, fat, carbs, and protein. Chances are her old food might not be suitable now, but vet food isn't mandatory. The important thing is that she eats, a more suitable food if possible.
Milkbones may be high in carbs so treats may have to be changed also, as some treats will boost her blood sugar and you'll be fighting fluctuations. Many biscuit type treats are made with wheat or grains, which can be high in carb content. Consistency in eating is important.
My dog did the peeing and drinking thing at first but it gradually diminished as he made progress on regulation.

[Eddie]

Re: Newly diagnosed and struggling

Hello and welcome!

I would first of all try getting her to eat her usual food so that you can then give her some insulin as her BG won't go down without that.

You will find all sorts of food preferences on here - from raw feeding to the diabetic prescription diets and everything in between. When we started out on this, our dog needed a particular type of food to help another digestive disorder he had so we just carried on feeding that (which is not particularly diabetic-friendly by most measures) and he is still going after four and a half years of being diabetic.

It may be that he could have had better regulation on a prescription food but we didn't want to trigger his other problems and most of all you want something that they will reliably eat. You can add small bits and pieces to the food just to tempt them into eating if there are treats that they especially like. It's a balance between getting them to eat the recommended food and just getting them to eat something so that you can get them into some sort of regular routine.

Sometimes when their BG is high and they are not eating , it seems to suggest the possibility of pancreatitis, but I have no experience of that so I will leave that for others to comment on.

People also tend to give a fraction of the normal insulin dose even when their dogs haven't eaten so you might want to think about that even if you can't get her to eat.

Great that you are planning to test her at home - that's the best thing to help get them regulated. I expect the term "fasting curve" just means that the first reading will be taken before the dog has breakfast ie fasting - but then is fed normally with readings taken usually every two hours through the day to the next meal.

It does get a lot easier as you get used to it all!
Antonia

[jaycapz]

Re: Newly diagnosed and struggling

Hi Mystii - Welcome to the forum.

Just to help provide some additional input, based on what I read from your post. You surely have a compounded issue, as one of the posters said and what you will see here often is that consistency is key. You need to establish a baseline, which will be hard until you break her habits. Some key points I recommend:

- No treats. Until you understand the glucuose levels and her dietary needs, I would stop cold turkey.

- Identify a food that your pup will eat without mixing in table food. Keep this in mind, each time you change food, your insulin requirements may change. Goal is to identify X food = X insulin every X hours ( typically 12 / twice a day ).

- If you are willing, you can try an organic type diet with boiled chicken for instance. This might be an easier transition for now, just to get her on a proper diet and get that insulin going.

- Some dogs do get warm when BG's run high, my pup's ears used to get very warm if he was running. Since I managed to keep him within a 70-110 range hes been fine, over 200 he will start to get warm and would lay frogger style out on the cold tile. So that is a possibility.

- Do not fall victim to feeling bad, no matter how much you want to give her a treat, table food, etc. She will break out of it. Dr Fosters website and other places have good tips for breaking habits. One example:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/ar...articleid=1411

- Is your pup over weight? What breed and weight? Tip: As she drops weight, insulin needs change. Diet will change this.

- How much insulin did they recommend to start her on?

[Mystii]

Re: Newly diagnosed and struggling

Quick reply because I'm on my way out to pick up a different food. But Indy is a Morkie (Yorkie / Maltese mix). She is about a pound overweight and she's gained that in the last 4.5 months. She's to get 2 units of vetsulin, twice a day. If she starts eating again that is.

I will consider an organic type diet if we can't get her on a food that she likes. I've read about them here

Oh, the vet described her old food as "the McDonald's of dog food" LOL. So I definitely need to find something else for her. I'm hoping that she's running warm because of her bg so I'll play that by ear. The no table food will be hard, but it's got to be done. I suspect that she's been primarily eating treats and table food "bites" to fill her belly and letting her sister (my mom's dog) eat all of the dog food. So I think this is a big change for her.

Thank you all so much for the replies. I'm reading a lot, worried about her, a bit overwhelmed and was feeling alone in this. She's too young to lose yet and way too important to us not to do everything we can.

[jesse girl]

Re: Newly diagnosed and struggling

thats the key to this disease is coming up with a plan that can be executed day in day out

it can take up to 6 moths or longer for some dogs ( my jesse was one of them )
its rare to see an established routine in a month

your doing great staying on top of things and moving forward and there will be reward for that effort down the road

[farrwf]

Re: Newly diagnosed and struggling

Hi and welcome to you and Indy. You've found your way to the absolute best place in the known universe for information, advice and fellowship regarding doggy diabetes.

It's most important that Indy eat. Without her eating everything else goes out the window. Then, the question becomes ... what to feed her??? I believe, all other things being equal, if you look for foods that are relatively low in fat and high in fiber you'll be in pretty good shape.

My Pug, Otis, was "husky" and had been on Purina OM for years before he was dx'd with diabetes, so the switch to a "diabetic friendly" food wasn't a big deal. From the "get go" my little diabetics had either, crockpot chicken (with all skin / visible fat removed), roast pork loin, or ground chuck mixed in with their kibble. These are all lean meats and are quite tasty. Worked out fine for us, unless something else was in play with them, ... their meals were Hoovered® up in a hurry.

Good luck!

[jaycapz]

Re: Newly diagnosed and struggling

Ok, so just taking a stab in the dark that your pups like 8-10 lbs? Hopefully the vet is looking to start a lower dosage and not jump directly to the estimated amount by weight, I am really only familiar with the NPH (human insulin) which my pup gets Novilin N. Maybe someone else here can chime in but, I believe vetsulin is no more than 1 unit equivalent for starting dose. Just a quick note on that.

Your welcome, and your not alone. My pup was diagnosed over 2 years ago, and hes going strong knock on wood. This is an awesome resource, this forum did help tremendously. Many good folks here will always try to help! Also did want to reply to something else you said regarding food and insulin, I would be VERY hesitant to give any amount of insulin if a decent amount of food was not consumed. I would definitely recommend starting it on a weekend or a day your home full time, if your pup will eat and you can start with the beginning dose. You will want to look to create your BG curve, which requires you to take a reading every 1-2 hours. This will be your best friend when trying to regulate or "troubleshoot" dosages.

Also... McDonalds of dog foods lol, that is funny. Yea I would put it up there with dog chow, pedigree and I think kibbles n bits. Many of these foods should be removed from the shelves, they are terrible. Whether they trigger diabetes over time is controversial (well not controversial if the pup becomes very overweight - but nonetheless fatty carb loaded junk with useless fillers), I for one wish I could go back and have maybe stuck with a blue buffalo or higher grade. Maybe I would have bought more time before dealing with it. Oh, I highly recommend blue buffalo canned as well. its pricey, but you can find deals online. I find the chicken/turkey griller to have a lower carb and works well for my pup, but might not for yours. Trial and error, but I would also look to dog food advisor for carb counts (and other dietary information) on any non-prescription foods so you can compare. https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/

Alright well I know this is allot of information, sorry to overwhelm you. We have all been there, just trying to arm you with all tips and tricks and pertinent information.

[LizE]

Re: Newly diagnosed and struggling

Hope things are going better for you. If your dog is still not eating and haven't been able to give any insulin I would call the vet. My dog was really sick when first diagnosed and also became very dehydrated. She was prescribed an appetite stimulant to help get her to eat and some anti nausea meds but we still had to cook up food fresh and feed her by hand until everything got under control.

I have to laugh about the Beneful comments. For over 8 years it was the only food my dog would eat. I finally switched her to a grain free diet after she started getting a really itchy face. It was 6 more years on "premium" foods before she was diagnosed with diabetes so I'm guessing your dog food choices are the least of your problems right now. Same with the grass eating. If she did not get sick before from eating grass it is less likely that it is causing her problems all of a sudden.

Hope you are getting the testing to work out - it can take a while. Meanwhile, I would not hesitate to take her into the vet if you are not seeing any improvements.

[Raysaint]

Re: Newly diagnosed and struggling

It's an old myth that a dog will eat when it's hungry, some are hungry but still refuse food for whatever reason. My vet told me that the bad thing is that with no food, eventually their stomach will create a bile and they'll probably throw up yellow foam.
You'll have to keep trying things, cooked chicken breast, sweet potato, pure pumpkin, maybe liver sprinkle on food.
Years ago when we first got our dog (he was a year old), he had psychological eating issues, and I was on my hands and knees trying to spoon feed him something he would eat; low fat cottage cheese, lean meats, boiled eggs, etc. Eventually found a canned food he liked.
Keep trying.

[Mystii]

Re: Newly diagnosed and struggling

Thank you all... I did finally get Indy to eat this morning. I went to the vet yestderday and switched her prescription food for a different one - she turned her nose up at both wet and dry. I was dehydrating some chicken breast slices and I suspect that's what she wanted LOL.

This morning, I put her dry food down with a few bits of the dehydrated chicken mixed in and she at most of it. Hurrah! So, yes, she got her insulin this morning. I'm not adverse to making her food but I think I'll see if this will work. I know she was hungry and she LOVES chicken so I think this might work for at least a little while.

BTW, the vet (not mine, she was out of the office) was the one that told me that when she gets hungry she'll eat. It's obvious she's not had much experience with how stubborn yorkies can be.

Indy weighed 16.5 lbs on Saturday, she's not a toy yorkie, both her parents were 15-18 lbs.

I gather that once I get her eating and on insulin for 7-10 days, then I can do the curve? I got the meter yesterday. She didn't object to the poke but she did object to me squeezing her ear. I'm going to try a different spot on her ear or perhaps the pad near the dew claw. Any recommendations there?

[farrwf]

Re: Newly diagnosed and struggling

Great, ... happy to see this!!

[Raysaint]

Re: Newly diagnosed and struggling

I use the inside of my dog's ear all the time, along the one side there is that whole big vein. I have the vet shave it every couple weeks. I don't squeeze it tho, I find if I get a good poke, the blood oozes out if I just bend the ear a bit.

[amydunn19]

Re: Newly diagnosed and struggling

Hi and welcome! The attitude of "they will eat when they get hungry" is a very dangerous one and my dog almost died because of a vet that had that mindset. Eating is essential to diabetes. The good news is you are not limited to prescription food. If you need to, feed what you were feeding until you can find something or what you were feeding may be fine. The best thing to do is try it and see if you can get the blood sugar to get in a good range. I would keep the fat low if possible when looking at food - it just saves digestive/pancreas issues later. You can always add boiled chicken to liven it up.

Glad to hear things are getting better already. At 16 lbs, the starting dose would be 1/5 or 3 units. But, starting lower is ok - some dogs may need less than the starting dose. Caution is good and patience is a virtue in regulation. You can't get it done in a week - it is a process.

[Mystii]

Re: Newly diagnosed and struggling

I have not mastered getting blood yet for her tests and I really don't want to get her to be "ear-phobic". I tried this morning and just could not get a drop of blood so I gave up. I'll try again later and see if it's any easier. Poor thing... I hate to add to the changes she's going through.

She is eating now though. It's predominately Beneful Incredibites but I'm adding more and more of the prescription food each time. The homemade chicken jerky seems to have made a huge difference in her willingness to eat.

I talked to her vet last night who wholeheartedly approved me doing this. It's much better than her not eating, especially since without food she was getting no insulin. Her attitude is better and she does seem to be slowly adjusting to things.

Now, if I could just figure out how to get a tiny blood sample without freaking her out LOL.