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  • Diagnosed today - lots of confusion and questionable veterinary visit/info

    Our chihuahua mix, Laika, was diagnosed with diabetes during a vet visit today. The vet prescribed the 12.5 oz. can of Hill's Prescription Diet w/d Multi-Benefit Vegetables and Chicken. This particular canned food is very expensive. I read diabetic dogs don't need to be on any special diet - or they can be fed certain human foods. Also, I believe there are less expensive diabetic dog foods.

    I read it's better to give diabetic dogs canned food instead of dry food - is that true?

    When we got home after the vet visit, Laika seemed very hungry. Typically, we gave her a little human food throughout the day, along with her generic dry dog food for small dogs. She only ate a little this morning, and was out for a while today for the vet visit. Maybe she was pretty stressed, too. The vet seemed to say that she should now eat only twice a day, spaced 12 hours apart. It seems 2 meals spaced 12 hours apart seems too long - especially for a dog accustomed to getting small amounts of food throughout the day. The Hills canned diabetic food she was prescribed seems very thin, not dense - and the vet said to give her half a can in the morning, and half a can at night, 12 hours later. It seems like she would be hungry on so little food a day.

    I've read that diabetic dogs can be given insulin shots as little as 7.5 hours apart - is that true?

    They said to give her an insulin shot 30 minutes after each feeding - but some sources say to give them WITH a meal. Can diabetic dogs have 3 meals a day so they won't have to wait so long between meals? Do they need an insulin shot after each meal, if they eat 3 meals a day?

    The vet and vet techs said a lot - this is a pretty complicated condition for dogs. It was hard to catch everything they said. They also didn't seem to be too happy with my questions, or the questions of the family members I went in with. It was a fairly painful visit.

    The vet said Laika needed to come in the next week and most likely stay the whole day at the clinic so they could take blood draws throughout the day - at least, I think that's what they said. Is this necessary? I haven't read about this anywhere else. We've already made an appointment for her for a week later to stay at the vet's the whole day. That sounds like it would be thousands of dollars. Today's visit was over $500.

    It sounds very expensive caring for a diabetic dog, with any prescription food, special diet, insulin, shots, glucose/urine monitoring, vet visits, etc. Of course, we want the best possible care for our dog, and for her to enjoy a long, happy life.

    Also, is it okay to give her treats throughout the day? The vet said to avoid giving her bread and rice, but said it was okay to give her vegetables and plain meats without a lot of oil or salt. What else can she be given as treats?

    Sorry about all these questions. I don't think the vet, vet techs, and other employees there were working towards our best interests - so I feel the need to ask more questions in this forum. They seemed to be suspicious and contemptuous towards us, though we're extremely polite, kind, educated, good people who love and care for our dog very much.

  • #2
    Re: Diagnosed today - lots of confusion and questionable veterinary visit/info

    Vet suggested food for my dog but i went to my local pet food store to get advice. I fed a low fat quality dog food switching from dry and wet overtime
    Its recommended to feed according to the dog food guide for the dog food
    manufacturer
    Also its recommended to feed and give insulin twice a day every 12 hours
    The best thing you can do on your journey is to take control of your dogs diabetes by home testing his blood sugar
    I purchased a dog glucose meter, syringes, test strips
    We can help you get started
    Riliey . aka Ralphy, Alice, Big Boy
    20 lb male. 5 1/2 nph insulin. 1/2 cup fromms. black cockapoo, dx Apr 2012 . 5 1\2 yrs diabetic. 2000 to 2017

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Diagnosed today - lots of confusion and questionable veterinary visit/info

      Originally posted by Riliey and Mo View Post
      Vet suggested food for my dog but i went to my local pet food store to get advice. I fed a low fat quality dog food switching from dry and wet overtime
      Its recommended to feed according to the dog food guide for the dog food
      manufacturer
      Also its recommended to feed and give insulin twice a day every 12 hours
      The best thing you can do on your journey is to take control of your dogs diabetes by home testing his blood sugar
      I purchased a dog glucose meter, syringes, test strips
      We can help you get started
      Thank you for your reply. We purchased the insulin and syringes at the vets office - they were included in the cost breakdown list for the visit. They probably cost much more than elsewhere.

      Can anyone respond to the other parts/questions in my post? Thanks!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Diagnosed today - lots of confusion and questionable veterinary visit/info

        Hi and welcome the information on the site can answer most of your questions . Its a bit of a learning curve but very doable . The big comment here on the forum every dog is unique . What may work for one may not for another

        In my jesses case the vet we had did not seem to understand the disease with jesse and i dont think its the fault of the vet but her case was a bit challenging and they could not put the time into figuring it out so i did .

        I made a point to become an expert on her individual diabetes and managing it . I had no understanding of medical issues but I learned and now I only trust me with her diabetes and managing it . I made mistakes starting out with a raw meat diet and diabetics need more balance in there diet to have adequate blood sugar

        there are some complications from the disease in dogs which is cataracts and pancreatitis . the ladder is the dangerous one and you want to stay away from high fat foods which is believed is a cause

        Mo gives sound advice about testing sugar at home There are pet meters but i have only used human meters for jesse . Your vet may not be happy with that but that is your business . The vet sounds pretty standard with the treatment and it does work for many so you can see how it goes . On diet dogs have been regulated on just about all types but what type will work for you dog only trying testing sugar and seeing if it works

        My jesse has one meal a day and 3 shots of NPH insulin . so there are many ways to make it work but you have to be discipline at least in the beginning to get your dog regulated same food time shots and even exercise . Once you accomplish regulation than you maybe able to ease up on somethings and not be so rigid with the routine but it all comes down to testing sugar at home and first getting regulated and usually the best way to start is the 12/12 program
        Jesse-26 lbs - 16.5 years old ,11 years diabetic, one meal a day homemade and a vitabone snack . 3 shots of Novolin( under the Relion name ) a day . Total insulin for a 24 hour period is 6.5 units of NPH insulin .
        Jesse earned her wings on 6/21/2021

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Diagnosed today - lots of confusion and questionable veterinary visit/info

          There are links in the main forum to start a basic understanding and education.

          While it sounds very complicated, diabetes comes down to feeding the right food, and that doesn't have to be a special brand or type. The right dose of insulin, usually just after meals, and that is usually 12 hours apart. And it doesn't have to be the vet's insulin. Many dogs use NPH as the standard insulin.

          Home testing is imperative in my opinion. Regardless of what your vet says. It's the only way to monitor blood sugar levels as you work your way towards regulation. Sugar can change a lot during this time and be erratic.
          And home testing let's you do sugar curves at home, that's checking sugar levels a few times during a 12 hour period. The main thing you're looking for in a curve is what the lowest sugar level is (nadir). That tells you if you can increase the dose again. Increase the dose, maybe a half unit, wait a week, then curve again, but you should also spot check around the nadir time.

          The general food consensus is low fat with moderate protein and carbs.

          The biggest thing to know is that getting to regulation takes time, so patience is a must. Don't expect good things to happen quickly, and that's OK.
          Diabetes is very manageable, but keep your regimen methodical and consistent.
          Riley, 8 yr. old maltipoo, 25 lbs., diagnosed Feb 2017, taking thyroid meds, had pancreatitis and DKA mid March, eating Wellness Senior formula can food. NPH dosage now at 9.0 units Humulin N. Adding either pumpkin, spinach, blueberries, yams, or green beans to his food. Also omega-3 oil.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Diagnosed today - lots of confusion and questionable veterinary visit/info

            Hi all,

            Thanks for the responses so far.

            Unfortunately, Laika has gotten even worse this morning - she was extremely lethargic, not moving, just lying/sleeping, looked very low energy, and definitely not like her usual self. She didn't even greet any of us like she always does. She keeps having her tail down, when typically, she has her tail curled on her back (she might be part pug). She's even worse off today than yesterday. I wonder if her two shots of insulin from last night and this morning (1 unit each) had anything to do with her lethargy and total lack of energy?

            However, later this morning, she was up and about as we started eating, and she was hungry and begging for food - so she doesn't seem as sick or overly lethargic anymore.

            After the vet visit yesterday, I gave her bits of food because she seemed very hungry. Then we followed the vet's orders exactly in giving her food and insulin - at 6pm yesterday, we gave her her usual dry dog food mixed with the Hills Prescription Diet w/d canned food she was prescribed. Then 30 minutes after she ate, we gave her her first insulin shot, 1 unit - the Vetsulin brand. Then the next morning, 12 hours later, at 6 am, we gave her the same kibble/Rx food mixture again, and administered another insulin shot 30 minutes after she ate. Has anyone had problems with the Vetsulin brand of insulin? I know it costs less than the brand the vet's office initially had on the list of procedures/items we were presented- so is Vetsulin worse than the other brand of insulin? Just wondering, again, if the insulin or brand had anything to her being much more lethargic and weaker than she's ever been before.

            We called the vet this morning - she's out of the office until next week - and she said Laika should be taken to an emergency 24 hour pet hospital so she could stay overnight. From the lab/blood work done yesterday, the vet said her white blood count was problematic, and she had a urinary tract infection - in addition to the diabetes. The vet said Laika might be given an intravenous antibiotic at the emergency hospital.

            I know most you are not medical professionals, but dog owners often have deep knowledge of their dog's difficulties, illnesses, etc. Is the overnight visit recommended by our vet necessary? What else can you say about all the other things I mentioned in this post and my original post?


            Thanks!
            Last edited by Beau1; 04-29-2019, 05:36 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Diagnosed today - lots of confusion and questionable veterinary visit/info

              Both food and insulin amounts go by the weight of your dog.

              .2 x the lb. Weight of your dog is recommended to start with
              And
              Food amount is according to beaus dog food feed guide

              How much does he weight??
              Riliey . aka Ralphy, Alice, Big Boy
              20 lb male. 5 1/2 nph insulin. 1/2 cup fromms. black cockapoo, dx Apr 2012 . 5 1\2 yrs diabetic. 2000 to 2017

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Diagnosed today - lots of confusion and questionable veterinary visit/info

                Sorry Laika is your dog
                Riliey . aka Ralphy, Alice, Big Boy
                20 lb male. 5 1/2 nph insulin. 1/2 cup fromms. black cockapoo, dx Apr 2012 . 5 1\2 yrs diabetic. 2000 to 2017

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Diagnosed today - lots of confusion and questionable veterinary visit/info

                  Hi and welcome to the forum to you and Laika.

                  Like others have said, it looks like your vet is doing all the right things. Did the vet give her anything for the UTI? It’s very important to clear up any infections. Otherwise, the insulin is not going to work properly.

                  What is Laika’s weight? A conservative unit starting dose of Vetsulin would be her weight in lbs multiplied by .20. If she weighs 10 pounds, the staring dose would be 2 units of Vetsulin every 12 hours.

                  The standard protocol that vets should follow to get your dog regulated is:

                  1. Let her body adjust to the insulin dose for 5 to 7 days.
                  2. Perform a 12 hour blood glucose curve, testing her BG starting before her AM meal and insulin and then every 2 hours, up to and including her PM meal.
                  3. Analyze the curve, increasing insulin in .5 unit increments.
                  4. Keep repeating steps 1 thru 3 until her 12 hour curve BG readings are in the 150 to 300 range. Some of us shoot for 100 - 250 for most of the day.

                  Most of us here home test. This is the single, most important thing you can do in managing her diabetes. It can save a ton of money and more importantly, keep your dog’s life safe by knowing how she reacts to all kinds of situations, like exercise, treats, food, and stress.

                  The main k9diabetes web site has some important info that can get you started... http://www.k9diabetes.com/
                  Lily is a 62 lb English Setter, born 07-27-2007.
                  Diabetes: Aug 2013
                  Went peacefully to heaven on 04-24-2021
                  Video in Lily’s memory: https://www.facebook.com/10000201631...3260300417807/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Diagnosed today - lots of confusion and questionable veterinary visit/info

                    Lethargy is common when blood sugar is high. Still not sure why the vet said to give insulin 30 minutes after meals. Sugar usually starts to rise soon after eating, so you need to get the insulin working at the same time.
                    Some people wait 5 minutes, just to make sure the dog doesn’t vomit.

                    Vetsulin is a common insulin, as is NPH. Some people switch from one to the other if sugars don’t seem to progress better over time.

                    The uti needs to be addressed. Not sure if the intravenous antibiotic is better or quicker than a couple weeks of pills.
                    Riley, 8 yr. old maltipoo, 25 lbs., diagnosed Feb 2017, taking thyroid meds, had pancreatitis and DKA mid March, eating Wellness Senior formula can food. NPH dosage now at 9.0 units Humulin N. Adding either pumpkin, spinach, blueberries, yams, or green beans to his food. Also omega-3 oil.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Diagnosed today - lots of confusion and questionable veterinary visit/info

                      Originally posted by MikeMurphy View Post

                      Like others have said, it looks like your vet is doing all the right things.
                      The vet wants to keep Laika at the vet's all day, from 8am to about 4 or 4:30, so they could monitor her glucose levels. I haven't seen vets monitor dog's glucose anywhere online. This vet seems very oriented towards making more money. You and others have said dog owners do their own monitoring and determine the dog's insulin levels themselves using glucose monitors.

                      Originally posted by MikeMurphy View Post
                      Did the vet give her anything for the UTI? It’s very important to clear up any infections. Otherwise, the insulin is not going to work properly.
                      Later on, the vet failed to mention the UTI again, or get back to us on the urine culture. We had to call back tonight to ask about it. I talked about the urine culture with the receptionist, and mentioned it to the vet during the call, but she still didn't tell me about the urine culture - did they get the results yet or not?

                      During my call to the vet's tonight, I also brought up the UTI with her, and the need for antibiotics, so she prescribed it, and we can pick it up tomorrow.

                      Looks like they are very disorganized and forgetful about important aspects of our dog's health, too.


                      Originally posted by MikeMurphy View Post
                      What is Laika’s weight?
                      She was 19 lbs when she was weighed during our first vet visit last Thursday. The vet said Laika was a bit overweight - she said you should be able to feel your dog's ribs like the top of your hand. Is that true for all dogs? Laika is a chihuahua mix, likely with pug and other stuff. She's larger and bigger-boned than a standard chihuahua. I'd hate to see her suffer by being hungry and having too little food - while she's suffering from diabetes and UTI.



                      Originally posted by MikeMurphy View Post
                      Most of us here home test. This is the single, most important thing you can do in managing her diabetes. It can save a ton of money and more importantly, keep your dog’s life safe by knowing how she reacts to all kinds of situations, like exercise, treats, food, and stress.
                      Yes, it seems that vet clinic is just trying to make a ton of money by having Laika in all day so they could test her blood glucose all day. That sounds like a very unnecessary thousands of dollars for that all-day visit!

                      Thank you for all that information.
                      Last edited by Beau1; 04-29-2019, 10:42 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Diagnosed today - lots of confusion and questionable veterinary visit/info

                        Since we're going to determine our dog's glucose curve and insulin levels by monitoring her glucose at home instead of having a vet do it - we're going to need a glucose monitor ASAP. I've seen some on Amazon, Chewy, and elsewhere. Are there any glucose monitors that are recommended?

                        There seems to be standard monitors as well as continuous glucose monitors. Are those continuous ones worth the higher cost?

                        I see that some people use human monitors for their dogs. Are human monitors better, worse, or no different from dog monitors? Do some dogs benefit from human monitors more than others?

                        It seems that doing a glucose curve all day, even at home, is not necessary. Can we just give our dog the approximate insulin amount for her weight, and see if it needs adjusting?
                        Last edited by Beau1; 04-29-2019, 11:06 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Diagnosed today - lots of confusion and questionable veterinary visit/info

                          Originally posted by Beau1 View Post
                          Since we're going to determine our dog's glucose curve and insulin levels by monitoring her glucose at home instead of having a vet do it - we're going to need a glucose monitor ASAP. I've seen some on Amazon, Chewy, and elsewhere. Are there any glucose monitors that are recommended?

                          There seems to be standard monitors as well as continuous glucose monitors. Are those continuous ones worth the higher cost?

                          I see that some people use human monitors for their dogs. Are human monitors better, worse, or no different from dog monitors? Do some dogs benefit from human monitors more than others?

                          It seems that doing a glucose curve all day, even at home, is not necessary. Can we just give our dog the approximate insulin amount for her weight, and see if it needs adjusting?
                          The most common pet glucometers are the Advocate PetTest and the AlphaTrak2. In both cases the manufacturers test strips are recommended and can be expensive.

                          The OneTouch Ultra2 and OneTouch Ultra Mini are the most popular human glucometers. With these you can use Equate, GenUltimate or Unistrip test strips, which are way less expensive. I’ve been using Walmart’s ReliOn Prime meter for my Lily for six years and found it to be very consistent. In general, human meters read a dog’s BG a bit lower than the pet meters.

                          As far as continuous monitoring systems like the FreeStyle Libre go, I don’t know much about them other than the monitor needs to be applied to your dog’s skin and needs to be changed every few weeks.

                          In regards to curves, 12 hour curves are very necessary to get a dog’s BG regulated, especially in the beginning. Doing them at home is preferred because your dog will be under less stress than at the vet.
                          Last edited by MikeMurphy; 04-30-2019, 08:37 AM.
                          Lily is a 62 lb English Setter, born 07-27-2007.
                          Diabetes: Aug 2013
                          Went peacefully to heaven on 04-24-2021
                          Video in Lily’s memory: https://www.facebook.com/10000201631...3260300417807/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Diagnosed today - lots of confusion and questionable veterinary visit/info

                            So we're still trying to decide on a glucose meter for Laika. Human - or the pet ones?

                            She's been more lethargic than ever today. She's been losing weight and is down to 14 lbs this morning. She was 19 lbs at the vet last Thursday, just 5 days ago. The weight loss is due to the weight she was already losing due to her illnesses, and also because the vet said she was overweight, and prescribed just a can of Rx food per day. So we've been feeding her quite a bit less than before.

                            Is it okay to increase her insulin to about 2 units each time? Or even 3 units, if it doesn't look like she's getting much better? We're giving it to her twice a day, spaced 12 hours apart, as the vet said.

                            I called the vet last night, and she prescribed Baytril 22.7 mg, 1/2 tablet every 12 hours for 21 days. So that's 1 tablet a day. Does this seem right? Anyone had experience with Baytril for their dog's UTI?

                            The vet's office really doesn't like answering our questions. They've been painfully rude and condescending to us - like we're irritating them by asking very valid questions that anyone would ask. So I'm left having to ask these questions online. They definitely do not like us - we're not going back.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Diagnosed today - lots of confusion and questionable veterinary visit/info

                              Originally posted by MikeMurphy View Post
                              The most common pet glucometers are the Advocate PetTest and the AlphaTrak2. In both cases the manufacturers test strips are recommended and can be expensive.

                              The OneTouch Ultra2 and OneTouch Ultra Mini are the most popular human glucometers. With these you can use Equate, GenUltimate or Unistrip test strips, which are way less expensive. I’ve been using Walmart’s ReliOn Prime meter for my Lily for six years and found it to be very consistent. In general, human meters read a dog’s BG a bit lower than the pet meters.

                              As far as continuous monitoring systems like the FreeStyle Libre go, I don’t know much about them other than the monitor needs to be applied to your dog’s skin and needs to be changed every few weeks.

                              In regards to curves, 12 hour curves are very necessary to get a dog’s BG regulated, especially in the beginning. Doing them at home is preferred because your dog will be under less stress than at the vet.
                              Heres Mikes info again on meters to get
                              Seems like 1 unit is not enough for a 14lb dog. 2.8 would be better in my opinion
                              Upping the dose i.d recommend by 2 units to 3. Only when you start home monitoring so you can monitor his bg readings especially starting antibiotics.
                              I didnt use a vet and relied on the members here in the forum to start.
                              Your doing great
                              Mo
                              Riliey . aka Ralphy, Alice, Big Boy
                              20 lb male. 5 1/2 nph insulin. 1/2 cup fromms. black cockapoo, dx Apr 2012 . 5 1\2 yrs diabetic. 2000 to 2017

                              Comment

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