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**BestBuddy** · 01-08-2010, 03:48 AM

Re: New here, HELLO!

Hi Stacey and welcome to you and Sweet Pea.

Exactly how old is dirt?

I don't know what Sweet Pea's weight is but 1iu is a a tiny amount so you haven't got much room to move.

How long has she been diabetic?

It is a shame you can't home BG test because that would make it so much easier when trying to change the diet.

Jenny

**Patty** · 01-08-2010, 09:39 AM

Re: New here, HELLO!

Hi Stacey and Welcome!

I know of a few dogs on raw diet and NPH (my Ali is one of them due to allergies). It is a bit of a challenge to balance the peaking action of N with a diet that is low in carb/fiber but it can be done. All of the dogs that I know of have had to add a carb/fiber source.

Heidi adds canned 100% natural pumpkin to Chloe's diet. Another added white sushi rice. I've tried a number of things with Ali. Right now I am supplementing with green lentils. But her 2nd meal is Primal's chicken formula which also has carrots and yams in it.

All of the dogs I know on a raw diet and peaking insulin have had to feed multiple times a day (for example I feed Ali 4x/day) to balance the action of the insulin.

Having said that, I don't want to discourage you, but switching to a raw diet without being able to home test would make me personally a bit nervous. Ali also went hypo when I switched her and I was testing! I had cut back her insulin but not enough and as with any food change her curve changed quite a bit.

Can I ask where you've tried to get blood from? The only place I had success was Ali's inner lip, about 1/2 inch up and across from the canine tooth. Most vets were recommending the ear or paw pad which never worked for us.

With regard to reducing the amount of insulin, it varies based on the food (amount of, for example, rabbit to produce ratio) and your dog. Sweet Pea is on a small amount of insulin. Like Jenny said, I'm curious to know how long she's been a diabetic, how old, and how much she weighs.

Early on, dog's can "honeymoon" or still produce some of their own insulin. But for the most part, dogs have type 1 diabetes and the beta cells of the pancreas simply don't produce insulin anymore. Even those small drops make a huge difference.

Patty

**SweetPea** · 01-08-2010, 11:20 AM

Re: New here, HELLO!

Sorry, I should have posted more info about her in my first post, and added it into my signature line. Dirt is anywhere in the range of 13-17yo? No one is 100% sure if the not-taken-care-of-well-in-her-past-life diabetes took it's toll on her and she just looks that old? But that is the vet's best guesstimation. All but her 2 lower canine teeth were removed when she was initially rescued from the puppy mill, so that was never a good way to tell. She was diabetic when she came to me. So your guess is as good as mine. The woman who had her before let her free feed on some kind of crappy kibble and gave her shots willy-nilly. It was not a good situation.

She's a whopping 8.6lb, scrawny little thing. She's getting 4oz of the canned food BID. The vet did ok us to up it to 5oz, but since she is just getting back on the regulation track on the 4oz, I wasn't comfortable upping it and having to change her insulin yet.

Thanks for the responses. I have much to learn, and it seems I may be able to do that here! Just reading through posts yesterday, I already learned at least one thing.

**Chloe's Mom** · 01-08-2010, 12:09 PM

Re: New here, HELLO!

Hi there Stacey,

I feed RAW to my Westie Chloe. She was on RAW before she became diabetic as well. But, when she became diabetic, I had to make some changes to her diet and the amount of times per day she is fed. I use the BRAVO BASIC Chicken Variety that has only the meat, organ meat and bone in it. I add my own veggies as well as pumpkin to the mix. I use a food processor to puree the veggies into a mush and then freeze it in ice cube trays. When it is meal time, I mix the BRAVO, the veggie mush, and the pumpkin together and bring it to room temperature in a double boiler. Your dog would be able to easily eat this because there are no bones to chew up.

Can you tell me what areas you have tried to home test on your dog? I never had any luck with the lip or the ear (Chloe wouldn't have that, LOL). I used to use the base of the tail, but now I have found that the Carpal Pad is the best for us. I get a great blood bead from that site that is almost painless for her. It is really important to me that she not have pain. I bet you feel the same way, right? Here is a link to a short video clip on taking blood from the carpal pad. This dog cooperates really well. My hubby holds Chloe for me because I can't keep her leg still long enough to get the meter to the blood. You will have to experiment and see which way works best for you. Take a look at it:

http://s197.photobucket.com/albums/a...t=P2090002.flv

If I can help you in any way, please let me know.

Hugs,
Heidi and Chloe

**SweetPea** · 01-08-2010, 01:48 PM

Re: New here, HELLO!

Hi Heidi. Thanks for your reply.

We've tried pretty much all the normal places that are recommended, Ear tips, lips, base of the tail, foot pads. We've even tried a few others that didn't work like her thigh, & shoulder area. She just doesn't give blood! The vet told us we could quick her nail in an emergency....but it's not something I could or would want to do every day, Hell, I don't think I could even do that in an emergency!

I'm on a computer that runs on Linux now, but I will check out the video when I get to a computer that runs Windows. For some reason, this one doesn't like it and freezes up whenever I try to open it.

Thanks again for the info.

**ravenecw** · 01-08-2010, 03:21 PM

Re: New here, HELLO!

Originally posted by SweetPea View Post

Hi Heidi. Thanks for your reply.

We've tried pretty much all the normal places that are recommended, Ear tips, lips, base of the tail, foot pads. We've even tried a few others that didn't work like her thigh, & shoulder area. She just doesn't give blood! The vet told us we could quick her nail in an emergency....but it's not something I could or would want to do every day, Hell, I don't think I could even do that in an emergency!

I'm on a computer that runs on Linux now, but I will check out the video when I get to a computer that runs Windows. For some reason, this one doesn't like it and freezes up whenever I try to open it.

Thanks again for the info.

Just for the record when I first started home testing I never thought I was going to get blood either. I see you tried alot of places already and for all dogs it is different (that's why there are so many places to try)- for me it's the tail, my dog doesn't feel it all. My problem when I first started testing is of course I was scared to hurt her at all. I have the clicker on the highest setting and she doesn't feel it at all and am able to test now. I hope you get it (i'm sure you will), it just takes some practice to see what you and your dog are most comfortable with.

**eileen** · 01-08-2010, 03:42 PM

Re: New here, HELLO!

Have you tried warming the area first before attempting to draw blood. If you take a wash cloth, run it under warm water, place in a baggie so not to get the area wet and hold it to the ear or base of the tail for about 30 secs it will most often bring the blood to the surface.

I also do not use the lancing device but only the tiny lancet in hand. I find this gives much better control as well as no intrusive device or clicking sound.

For the first year or so I used Mildred's ear but once discovering the lip I now find an endless supply there.

If you haven't already you may want to try a different size lancet. Some like 30 or 31 gauge others 28g such as myself. It just depends upon the dog. The lancets are the same as needles...the higher the number the thinner the end.

Good luck.
Eileen/Mil

**k9diabetes** · 01-08-2010, 05:10 PM

Re: New here, HELLO!

It's going to be especially tricky making diet changes when you're using such a small dose of insulin - doesn't give you much leeway there to adjust.

Because of that, if she's doing well on the Nature's Variety, I think personally would opt to keep her on it. It can be really hard to find a diet that works.

Italian greyhounds are the tiniest little things! I've got cats that outweight them by three pounds!

Natalie

**CarolW** · 01-08-2010, 06:12 PM

Re: New here, HELLO!

Stacey - I use the lip (rather, the lining of the mouth - to prick, and Kumbi is like your dog - doesn't like to bleed! So I fold his lip down over a very warm (tap-water) wet paper towel, and hold it there for 10 to 15 seconds, and then it will bleed just fine!

But your dog might not accept the LipStick. So maybe the carpal pad is the way to go; if so, you could warm THAT, too, before pricking.

Heidi, I have a question for you:

Originally posted by Chloe's Mom View Post

Here is a link to a short video clip on taking blood from the carpal pad. This dog cooperates really well. My hubby holds Chloe for me because I can't keep her leg still long enough to get the meter to the blood. You will have to experiment and see which way works best for you. Take a look at it:

http://s197.photobucket.com/albums/a...t=P2090002.flv

A friend gave me some .flv video clips yesterday, but I have no idea what software they require to open them. Could you tell me? I'm running Windows XP Home. I'd love to look at your video clip, but doubt I can! Is your computer an Apple (Mac) or a Windows machine?

Thanks!

Fri, 8 Jan 2010 17:10:05 (PST)

**ravenecw** · 01-08-2010, 06:24 PM

Re: New here, HELLO!

Originally posted by CarolW View Post

Stacey - I use the lip (rather, the lining of the mouth - to prick, and Kumbi is like your dog - doesn't like to bleed! So I fold his lip down over a very warm (tap-water) wet paper towel, and hold it there for 10 to 15 seconds, and then it will bleed just fine!

But your dog might not accept the LipStick. So maybe the carpal pad is the way to go; if so, you could warm THAT, too, before pricking.

Heidi, I have a question for you:

A friend gave me some .flv video clips yesterday, but I have no idea what software they require to open them. Could you tell me? I'm running Windows XP Home. I'd love to look at your video clip, but doubt I can! Is your computer an Apple (Mac) or a Windows machine?

Thanks!

Fri, 8 Jan 2010 17:10:05 (PST)

http://download.cnet.com/FLV-Player/...-10467081.html

that is a free player that will play .flv files

**AlisonandMia** · 01-08-2010, 06:28 PM

Re: New here, HELLO!

Hi,

My dog (NOT diabetic) is on a raw diet and I've occasionally thought to myself that this diet would probably not work too well for a diabetic because it is so very low carb - just a little bit of carb from the veggies and the rest of the calories from protein and fat. I think that normally a low-carb diet is very good for dogs as they are not really designed to deal with much carbs and don't seem to need them.

Presumably my boy's pancreas just secretes tiny amounts of insulin throughout the day to keep his BG stable - I'm guessing his overall insulin production is pretty low because of his low carb diet. The problem for a treated diabetic is that they can't just dribble out these tiny pulses of insulin but instead get a couple of big whacks of insulin (albeit usually formulated to be utilized over a period of hours) and it seems they really do need a couple of big whacks of carbohydrate to counter that which is probably why the commercial food is working better for Sweet Pea.

It looks like you have two alternatives - either stick with the food he's on now or try adding a carefully measured carb source to the raw formulation. What type of carb works best for him would probably depend on his individual utilization of the carbs and whether you add a fiber source as well. A mix of overcooked rice and something like psyllium or benefiber to slow down the release of the carbs could work well. Given that BG testing looks like it isn't possible with Sweet Pea it may be safer to stick with the commercial diet especially if you can't be with him all the time.

I do understand your wanting to persist with the raw diet - my dog just glows with good health and doesn't have that "doggie smell" either which is one of the benefits of a raw diet, I believe. I honestly don't know what I'd do in your position - I just hope that I never have to cross that bridge!

Alison

PS: I do add some psyllium to my dog's raw diet as he's been seen scooting (anal gland problems?) a couple of times. The psyllium seems to have stopped the scooting.

**Patty** · 01-08-2010, 06:42 PM

Re: New here, HELLO!

Originally posted by AlisonandMia View Post

PS: I do add some psyllium to my dog's raw diet as he's been seen scooting (anal gland problems?) a couple of times. The psyllium seems to have stopped the scooting.

Alison,
Curious, what does your dog weigh, how much psyllium, and what kind do you add per meal? I know, lots of questions

Thanks,
Patty

**inn8** · 01-08-2010, 07:52 PM

Re: New here, HELLO!

Hi Stacey,

I love it, "the sweetest Pea in the pod!" I do rescue work too and just may have to borrow that name!

I've fed 2 diabetics raw. My first dog, Schultz, did best on Humulin N but as Patty mentioned, he needed a little carb to slow down the onset of the insulin. I fed him a home-prepared raw mix and did have a glitch when I changed his meals from cuts and slabs of meat to ground. The ground meat made for a quick meal through his digestive tract so it didn't match up with his insulin which resulted in rapid drops and lows. Heidi feeds Chloe a ground meal and she does fine with it, so an individual dogs metabolism plays a role.

My second diabetic is a foster I've been owned by for the last 18 months or so. I started her right away on Lantus insulin because that is what most raw feeders recommend due to its action, no rise or fall to it, just a relatively flat profile and works well with a diet that doesn't raise glucose. She has done great, but Lantus doesn't have the greatest track record with dogs so I'd be hesitant to use it unless you can get some blood from Sweet Pea.

For testing locations, I've had 100% success with the outside of the lip so I've never tried any other place. I rub the gum line just behind the canine tooth to get it warm and dry, pull it tight and use a lancet in a pen device to get a bead of blood. I do it sitting on the floor with the dogs head resting on my knee. I didn't think my first dog (aka Mr. Snappy-Pants) would tolerate me touching his mouth, be he was treat motivated so he loved getting his blood checked.

You are doing great, keep asking questions!

HTH Carla

**eileen** · 01-09-2010, 06:45 AM

Re: New here, HELLO!

Originally posted by inn8 View Post

Hi Stacey,

I love it, "the sweetest Pea in the pod!" I do rescue work too and just may have to borrow that name!

I've fed 2 diabetics raw. My first dog, Schultz, did best on Humulin N but as Patty mentioned, he needed a little carb to slow down the onset of the insulin. I fed him a home-prepared raw mix and did have a glitch when I changed his meals from cuts and slabs of meat to ground. The ground meat made for a quick meal through his digestive tract so it didn't match up with his insulin which resulted in rapid drops and lows. Heidi feeds Chloe a ground meal and she does fine with it, so an individual dogs metabolism plays a role.

My second diabetic is a foster I've been owned by for the last 18 months or so. I started her right away on Lantus insulin because that is what most raw feeders recommend due to its action, no rise or fall to it, just a relatively flat profile and works well with a diet that doesn't raise glucose. She has done great, but Lantus doesn't have the greatest track record with dogs so I'd be hesitant to use it unless you can get some blood from Sweet Pea.

For testing locations, I've had 100% success with the outside of the lip so I've never tried any other place. I rub the gum line just behind the canine tooth to get it warm and dry, pull it tight and use a lancet in a pen device to get a bead of blood. I do it sitting on the floor with the dogs head resting on my knee. I didn't think my first dog (aka Mr. Snappy-Pants) would tolerate me touching his mouth, be he was treat motivated so he loved getting his blood checked.

You are doing great, keep asking questions!

HTH Carla

Carla,

I find your statement on Lantus curious.... I know it is being used with cats with great success and have several friends with diabetic dogs who have used it, along with a bolus, Humalog, all with shining reveiws. I have never read a negative statement about it such as yours.
Of course I completely agree that careful blood testing would have to go hand in hand with its use as well as a specialized diet.

I'm also an avid lip/gum tester, sitting on the floor as you describe.

Thanks in advance.
Eileen/Mildred

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