Angel Piper.... October 31, 2015

[ceruleanblue]

Hi Everyone,

Piper is our 10 yr old Border Collie/GSD mix. Last Monday we took her to the vet because she was peeing in the house (we thought maybe a UTI), and they did a urinalysis. They called us back the next day, and told us to bring her in because it showed glucose in the urine. They tested her blood glucose there, and it was 493. They started her on Humulin-N (Novolin) at 10 units twice a day. She went back Friday for another blood glucose test, and it was still high, so they upped her to 12 units twice a day. I'm here to learn more about diabetes in dogs, and what we can do to help her.

I do have a question to start off though... I'm having trouble getting her to eat when it's time now. We've never had a problem getting her to eat before, so I think she's already started associating her meals with getting an injection. What can I do to make this easier for her?

Thanks,
Mandy

[Judi]

Re: Piper

Hi Mandy, sorry about the diagnosis. I had to quit giving Jenny her shots while eating for that very reason. I wait until she is totally done now and give her a small piece of chicken jerky which she adores. She knows she gets jerky only after a shot so that helps.

Also, if Piper isn't eating, you don't want to give the full dose.

How much does she weigh? Did they do a full curve where they tested her every 2 hours?

Some of our more experienced folks will probably be on later and more info helps them give you suggestions.

I have also resorted to putting a teaspoon of stinky grain free Duck or Chicken grill on Jenny's food. I mix it in and she eats all of her food to make sure she gets all of that.

hang in there! Judi

[Cebe]

Re: Piper

Talk to the vet about pancreatitis with regard to the lack of appetite. It may be an issue.

Have you considered home testing? It will save you money and vet trips and will give you the greatest knowledge and control over you dog's health.

Also, Walmart is a good resource for insulin and diabetic supplies.

[ceruleanblue]

Re: Piper

I tried to reply to this on my phone, but I don't think it posted, so sorry if a bunch of these show up later. :P

Piper weighs about 88 lbs. Tonight was the only time she hasn't eaten a full meal. She ate about half of it, and when she wouldn't eat any more, I ended up giving her a couple of treats to sort of make up for the rest (probably not the best, I know... How do I judge how much insulin to give her if she doesn't eat everything?). I don't think the problem is lack of appetite, but that she knows the injection is coming. When I gave her the injection tonight, she jumped and nipped at me. That's the first time she's done that as well. I've been reading other parts of the forum, and will try some of the tips there to hopefully make that part a little less painful for her. We did buy some chicken jerky treats that she really seems to like. Maybe I can try waiting a minute after she eats, then giving the jerky to distract her from the injection (although that was my thinking with doing it while she was eating :-/ ).

The vet clinic we bring her to is a low cost walk-in clinic. They did not do a full curve, just a single blood glucose test 5-6 hours after she ate (the first test was fasting, because we only fed at night before the diagnosis). We are considering testing at home, but aren't really sure how well that'd go over with her. She hates having her feet touched, and just doesn't like being "messed with" in general (she has to be muzzled at the vet). I've been trying to play with her ears and lips a little bit lately, but she's still suspicious and tries to hide.

Also, we have one of her puppies, and another one of them lives next door. Would they be more prone to developing diabetes since she has?

[k9diabetes]

Re: Piper

What is the gauge of the needles in the syringes you are using and where are you giving the injections?

[ceruleanblue]

Re: Piper

They are 30 gauge, 3/10cc, 5/16" length. The vet told us we could inject her just about anywhere on her body area (except for near the spine or midline), so I have been moving around from her shoulder area to down near her tail. I found the illustrations of where to inject on the other part of the forum, so I'm going to try near the flank this morning, and use the tenting method that I read about (I originally did it like that when we practiced with saline, but the vet told me not to pull the skin up like that).

[ceruleanblue]

Re: Piper

Well, this morning's injection did not go so well either (I've been having to bring her food to her in her hiding spot under the table to get her to eat). I made sure i let the insulin warm to room temp, the needle was bevel side up, and i tented her skin. Now she's reacting before I even put the needle in. I got her out from under the table with a treat, but as soon as I started pulling her skin up, she ran back under, so I followed her under there. I pulled her skin up again, and brought the needle towards it, and she started snapping around and trying to nip me- before the needle was even in. I finally got it in, but neither one of us was happy about it. I really don't want this to be bad for her.

[Judi]

Re: Piper

we went through this with Jenny. She got to the point where she anticipated it and was nipping and whining before I even did anything. We did resort to a muzzle for a couple of weeks just to calm everyone down.

I'm no longer using the muzzle and sometimes she whines when she feels me tent her skin and sometimes she doesn't even know she has had her shot.

As much as she hates her shot she comes up to me for it because she wants her jerky!

We are now only injecting on the scruff because that seems to bother her the least. I rotate as much as I can up there and I think she requires more insulin when I inject there but she definitely doesn't feel it as much.

Maybe you should move Piper totally away from the food area for the shot? I gave up trying to trick Jenny about it. We both knew it was coming. I'll say shot and I'll say jerky. a lot.

hang in there. I know it is stressful. Judi

[farrwf]

Re: Piper

Well, this morning's injection did not go so well either (I've been having to bring her food to her in her hiding spot under the table to get her to eat). I made sure i let the insulin warm to room temp, the needle was bevel side up, and i tented her skin. Now she's reacting before I even put the needle in. I got her out from under the table with a treat, but as soon as I started pulling her skin up, she ran back under, so I followed her under there. I pulled her skin up again, and brought the needle towards it, and she started snapping around and trying to nip me- before the needle was even in. I finally got it in, but neither one of us was happy about it. I really don't want this to be bad for her.

Know what you're going through ... Otis was the same (minus the snapping). The problems I had with O's injections seemed to be related to me "violating his personal space" rather than a pain issue.

The "trick" to a successful injection for us is for me to make sure Otis isn't focused on me. Otherwise, the injection process reverts to being a battle. I alway win because I'm much bigger, but it's an unpleasant episode and I end up with an angry Pug glaring at me when we're done.

Here's what we do immediately after O has eaten:

• prepare a "sampler" plate of his treats
• have the syringe ready
• place the plate in front of Otis and wait for him to start gobbling the treats
• stroke his back so he's used to me touching him
• pick the right moment and ... tent & inject very fast.

He may briefly look at me, but that's it, ... and he's back to his treat plate.

The only time I have problems these days is when he isn't hungry and won't eat. That's when the process deteriorates into a battle, because he's focused on every move I make.

[jenny]

Re: Piper

Love Bills description of Otis's injection time!
Cant stop grinning at what we do for these dogs and what amazing personalites they are!

Pippa didnt like injections at first but has got used to them, its done fast on the kitchen table after her meal and a small bicci given as a treat. It does get easier. Maybe try to keep tenting her skin up when shes relaxed and sleepy so she gets more used to this. My vet told me that he was shown to inject insulin by an old wise nurse who told him that pinching the skin up switches off the nerve fibres and makes the injection painless. I still do these dummy tenting sessions when shes resting and sleepy so she doesnt mind it now.

[Rubytuesday]

Re: Piper

I use the 31 gauge needle which (counterintuitively) is smaller then the 30 gauge. May not make a difference, but may be more comfortable.

Ruby gets her B12 shot in a 25 gauge needle. If she isn't thinking about food she can really squeal for that one, but if I do it right before meal time she is so focused on getting dinner that she doesn't seem to mind it.

know that a lot of folks have struggled as you have. It can be so upsetting. Many folks such as Judi have come a long way in this area as I am sure you will eventually find a way that works for you too.

In regards to the muzzling I won't hesitate to use it under circumstances such as this. It lets me be less fearful. If I am fearful and my nerves are shot I won't be bringing good calm energy to the situation. When I groom snappy dogs and use a muzzle it seems to calm them as the biting option has been taken away.

Of course sometimes it can make things worse, some dogs will go bonkers when muzzled. If you want to try it you might do some dry runs of putting the muzzle on and then taking it off and giving a treat. I would do the dry runs away from shot time as I imagine she goes into lock down mode then, where she is in an unteachable frame of mind.

Tara

[Cebe]

Re: Piper

The tenting of the skin is important, in my view, because you want the insulin to be injected under the skin, but not in the muscle or a vein. i also think it helps with the pain of the injection.

Also, cold insulin can sting, so some folks prepare the shot, then put the cap back on and hold the syringe in their mouth or under the arm to warm it up again before injecting.

[momofdecker]

Re: Piper

Wanted to pop in to say hello to you and Piper. You've found a great resource for information and support! Holli

[ceruleanblue]

Re: Piper

Thanks for all of the tips, everyone! It's good to know that I'm not the only one that's had trouble. Just browsing the threads at first, it seems like everyone has perfectly patient, easygoing dogs!

I think we're definitely going to have to get a muzzle for her, at least for a little bit. She was putting teeth on skin tonight. It took both my brother and I to do her injection tonight. I did it on the flank, and used the tenting method, and she didn't seem to feel it as much when I did the injection, but that also could've been because my brother was holding her head.

I was also looking at meters today, hoping that one day we might work up to testing at home, since I don't really trust the vet's "You don't worry about testing her, we'll do it all" approach. The One Touch Ultra Mini is only $9.99 with the reward card at CVS. Would that be a good one to get?

I went to the vet's office today and got a copy of the results of the CBC and urinalysis they did before they put her on insulin. I was also reading a little bit on the Cushings side of the forum, and it seems like a lot of the symptoms overlap. What are the differences in the tests that would distinguish one from the other?

[Patty]

Re: Piper

I like my Mini meter though I use a full size one for daily testing because the numbers on it read better.

If you want to look at a OneTouch Ultra2 Amazon sells them for about $20 including shipping. http://www.amazon.com/One-Touch-Ultr.../dp/B001A66QV0

It's the test strips that cost so much. Retail they run about $1 a strip. I buy mine on ebay for around 47 cents a strip including shipping. Just watch for factory sealed boxes and good expiration dates.

Most human meters will read your dog's blood sugar a bit lower than actual due to the difference in shape/size of a dog's red blood cell. But you can always compare your meter to your vet's lab machine later once you get the hang of testing.

If you plan to test somewhere with thicker skin, such as the rear/base of tail area, larger lancets can be helpful such as 26 gauge (higher the number the thinner the lancet).