Bogie - Diabetes 7 years - Cancer just diagnosed

[Denise]

Hello! I know most of you here, have read, replied a couple times but haven't posted till now.

Bogie, 11 year old black schnauzer, diabetic dx Sept. 2001, atypical Cushings dx'ed Feb. 2005. Had been 26 pounds till recently, now 22 and recent diet change also to a freeze dried meat and veggie food and some canned no grain food.

Bogie had been on 13 units Novolin N for years. With his weight loss and diet change I thought I'd better do a curve.
ACTH last month showed nothing to be alarmed by, still not treating.

I'd been seeing some 300 numbers at fasting but he wasn't PU/PD and acted well, chasing birds and squirrels and barking at everything.
April 8
8 a.m. 307
10 a.m. 150
12 p.m. 91 chicken snack
2 p.m. 66 fed him a bisquit and the last bite from my banana
4: 45 p.m. 89 fed him a smaller bisquit
7 :20 p.m. 381 AAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

I lowered his dose to 11 that night and next day (April 9) numbers were
249 and 348

April 10: 192 and 304

April 11: lowered to
10 units 428 and 131

April 12 morning fasting was 584! 2 hours later he was 196 and 2 hours after that he was 82, PM fsating 462.

April 13 lowered dose to 9 units and got fasting bg's of 323 and 352. Thought I'd better get some more numbers so tested at noon and he was 158

April 14 508 at 8 a.m. and at 11:30 he was 110!

He was up drinking last night, more than normal time at the bowl so I tested him at 4 a.m. and he was 386, usually doesn't drink a ton in this range, I gave one unit of R and at fasting he was 216.

I don't know how low to lower his dose but it still looks like rebound. The insulin is really kicking in fast and lowering him wa too much and then I don't know if I am over correcting with needed snacks or not.

I'm not sure anyone has any advice but I needed to vent it.

Planned on doing another curve while still at 9 units (this is day 4) but am thinking I need to lower dose and wait a few more days.
I missed getting a 10 a.m. test today (doc appt.) noon he is 304 so not sure if he dipped today or not!

I had labs done a few weeks ago so I could schedule a dental for him but don't want to take him in for that with bg such a mess.

Thoughts? Advice? Want a dog????

[k9diabetes]

Re: Bogie, rebound

My first thought on a quick scan is that the diet change has created a mismatch between food and insulin.

Another possibility is that his metabolism of the insulin has changed.

Possibly both.

This...

8 a.m. 307
10 a.m. 150
12 p.m. 91 chicken snack
2 p.m. 66 fed him a bisquit and the last bite from my banana
4: 45 p.m. 89 fed him a smaller bisquit
7 :20 p.m. 381 AAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

doesn't really look like rebound to me because his BG stayed pretty level for several hours after that 66 but also rose slightly rather than dropped further. It looks more like lack of duration combined with the glucose from the biscuit.

I can't see any way to sort it out short of a curve and if you get numbers that are low but not dangerously low, try to avoid giving him any snacks so you can watch the insulin work without adding that in as a variable.

Any possibility it's this bottle of insulin?

Natalie

[Dollydog]

Re: Bogie, rebound

Hi Denise,
I'm not any help but I sure feel for you!! Wishing you all the best in getting it sorted out and will be checking back to see how it gets worked out. After so many years with diabetes it must be disheartening to see this, especially with the ACTH test not showing anything alarming.
Take care,
Jo-Ann & Lady

[Brandy mom]

Re: Bogie, rebound

Hi Denise

Has Bogie UTI clear up? I know this is strange but When Brandy had a UTI she was using the insulin different. I thought rebounds at first too until I did a curve. She just keep bouncing up and down all day. Took her to the vet and she had a UTI. A few day on medication and everything went back into place.

Dawn and the girls

[Denise]

Re: Bogie, rebound

Well I got side tracked from Bogie's issues when I got the call that Reba ahs Cushings, atypical....so, give me time to digest this and make all the calls and do the reading I need to and I will get back to Bogie!

Bubba is doing OK too. Not as clingy and whiny was he was last night so I hope by tomorrow he will be back to normal. He's driving me nuts!
(he has a tumor removed Monday morning, from his hiney area, next to an anal gland. Waiting for path report, more wiating!!!)

[Denise]

Re: Bogie, rebound

Dawn, need to check Bogie again for UTI. He had a UA a couple weeks ago and nothing showed but protein but I bought a test kit and will test him tomorrow. I think if it's abck we need a culture grown this time!

[ladysmom06]

Re: Bogie, rebound

Hi Denise,

Can't help with Bogie but wanted to wish you luck with getting it all sorted out. Sorry to hear that Reba has cushing's. You sure have a lot going on right now. Hugs to you and the gang.

[k9diabetes]

Re: Bogie, rebound

I can't believe it - you've got another pair of twinsies!

Glad you were able to get Reba sorted out fast now that you're an expert on atypical Cushings. Just knowing that it exists and how to test for it is a sanity saver.

Anxious to hear about Bubba too,

Natalie

[eyelostit]

Re: Bogie, rebound

Sorry you are having trouble, your curve looks like Niki's used to at times

8 a.m. 307
10 a.m. 150
12 p.m. 91 chicken snack
2 p.m. 66 fed him a bisquit and the last bite from my banana
4: 45 p.m. 89 fed him a smaller bisquit
7 :20 p.m. 381 AAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know you're experienced with the DB

Either that small biscuit, shot up the BG of 381, or during nite went low then got hi from the liver (whats it called again, it causes the highs)

It looks like to me at 2:00 the biscuit (isn't that a fast carb?) and the banana would be also would get into system faster and raise the BG then the BG would lower faster.

So at 12:00 or 11:00 I'd give some brocoilli or other veg and a bit of oatmeal or the brown rice, and around 11 pm I give a little broc and oats.

The biscuit at 4:45 could have raised the BG, but I don't know if the biscuits are actually a fast carb, I know I can't give to Niki.

Its taken me forever to get Niki in a Normal (whats normal ) range.

I give her snack at 3-4 hrs, I have to give her some broc and oats or br. rice, about a tablespoon of each and sometimes 4 kibble with it.

Then at about 6-7 hours a bit more of broc and rice without kibble.

If i don't do this her BG shoots up to over 200, her insulin kicks in about 1 1/2 hrs and don't start to wear off until 9 hrs past feeding then I get a slow decrease in BG till meal time,the slow decrease could be starting at 8pm BG at 180 from the treat and end up with a 120 or a 101 pre meal.

on weekend she had a pre meal walk, BG 64, I don't like that kind of low for her so I delayed injection till 45 min.

But this is just Niki's way, it gets so frustrating at times, as I could get a 300 anyday

I never like her low (my considered low is 90 or under for her) but I seen her go into shock and I never want to see it again.

Then with 2nd meal I give the same snack at 2-3 hrs and lower insulin by 1/2 unit.

Hope this helps, maybe bogies body is just changing

I don't know what you feed, but i hope this helps alittle, for bogie getting DB in 2001 you are doing good.

How is your sister?

[Denise]

Re: Bogie, rebound

Bogie is driving me nuts! Now he's decided not to eat like normal and each meal can be different. He had given up on his veggies and that's when I went to freeze dried raw, now he is scarfing green beans again.

This morning all he would eat was grain free kibble, didn't touch the beans, cottage cheese (added again cause he's lost weight) or canned. He will NOT eat the freeze dried he loved 2 weeks ago.

I have no idea how to dose him so am doing another curve today but not sure it will tell me much.

Reba and Bubba both go to ISU tomorrow, what a day that will be!!!!

Molly is doing great. Her bg's are running between 100-200 so I can be thankful for ONE pet not giving me grief at least! : )

[rhodesian46]

Re: Bogie, rebound

Hi Denise,
if its not one pet it is another!! Have Pebbles results in already will post later!!!

[forscooter]

Re: Bogie, rebound

Hi Denise,

Just a thought here....not sure if it can happen in dogs but it can in people. Sometimes, after having diabetes for a while, you can get a type of neuropathy that is called gastroparesis. It basically means that the GI tract takes longer to digest food.

So, what I am wondering is if the insulin is kicking in but they food is delayed in its digestion causing the drop in the BG and then when the food is digested, you see the BG go back up high? This can happen with people with diabetes and thought maybe it may help or be worth asking the vet about.

You have your hands full...I am sending my very best wishes for some peace for you soon! Beth, Scooter and Bailey

[k9diabetes]

Re: Bogie, rebound

I hate it when they get picky about food... I was talking with Patti about her poodle, Max, this weekend and he's doing the same thing. He's been tested every which way and they can't find anything wrong with him. But he will eat something for a week or two and then refuse it and it's on to something else. He's the dog that goes hypo on 1/4 unit of insulin... ugh!

I'm starting to think some of it is just old age crotchedyness!

Natalie

[Denise]

Re: Bogie, rebound

Thanks for the info Beth! I WILL ask about it.

Nat, I feel something is going on with him. Going to start with a UA on Friday and go from there. I can't find his latest labs from a few weeks ago so will have to get another copy to study.

Maybe I should just haul him to ISU too! LOL NOT!

[k9diabetes]

Re: Bogie, rebound

Oh, I don't like to hear that. I hope it's nothing serious!!!

I was really glad we did the ultrasound. The doc charges a reasonable price and I sleep a lot better so am happy to pay it.

I haven't had a chance to read up on fibrosarcoma. How's Bubba doing?

Natalie