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**k9diabetes** · 04-29-2008, 11:12 PM

Re: Sandy's Zoe - Welcome!

About Zoe from the Cushings Board...

Hi there! This is my first time posting. I have a 8 1/2 year old mini schnauzer. We are almost at the 1 year anniversary of the diagnosis of diabetes. After several days of being hospitalized, the vet was able to get her blood sugar down (she started at above 500), and we had her pretty well managed for 6 months. She continued to lose weight slowly though. The vet attributed it to her diabetes and the diabetic dog food-- Purina DCO-- so I increased her food from 1/2 cup 2 times a day to 1 and 1/3 cup 2 times a day. She continued to lose weight, particularly muscle mass. At her peak she ws 27 lbs and she was just 20 lbs. by mid-January. In mid-January, after returning from 3 day trip she just didn't seem like herself. She vomited that night and the next day. Also she had been drinking excess water again and having accidents in the house. After a couple of trips to the vet it was determined her blood sugar was in the 500s again, despite the increased dosages of insulin. So, we increased the insulin again for several days and once out of crisis, the vet did a low dex supression test which he said supported his belief that she had cushings as well. Thereafter we started her on 50 mg of Trilostane 1 x per day. 10 days later of 2/1, we did an ATCH test and blood glucose curve, and ATCH results were 3.3, 2.2 and 3.1. We kept her on the same dose of trilostane. On 2/16 we did another ATCH test with results of 1.2 and .9. I was told because we were adjusing her insulin based on the trilostane dosage, we'd leave her at the same trilostane dosage even though the .9 was a bit low. We have struggled with regulating her blood sugar (she was hovering between 498-600 for weeks-- the humulin would literally vacate her system after 4 hours), and have switched from humulin-n to Vetsulin and she is on 14 units two times a day. I check her urine for glucose daily, and have had 3 days total since this all started with a single negative test; the rest are all in the 1%-2% range. Today, she had a curve done, and another ATCH test done. She also had a fructosamine test done. The curve looked better, ranging from a high of 348 to a low of 168, which is the best it has been in months. And she is up to 23.2 lbs. We don't have fructosamine results yet.

But, here's the question, (finally--sorry for being long winded but I want you to have all the facts), the vet tech at the vet's office accidentally started the ATCH test at 2 hours after she was given her trilostane, instead of starting at 4 -6 hours.

The vet says that if the results come back tomorrow on the "high" end, he'll re-test her tomorrow for free. However, if the test comes back normal, there will be no need to retest. What is the purpose of the 4-6 hour window for starting the test? And how would an early test affect the results?

My poor dog has been just starving lately. She's been barking at me both before and after meal times, which she has never done before. She's also been sleeping on the cool tiles more often than not. I don't know if I should insist on a re-test, much as I hate to subject my puppy to more visits to the vet.

Also, does anyone have any experience with Vetsulin? We switched at the end of February, and are going through tons of it.... 14 units 2 times a day for a 22 lb dog. I am literally running to the vets office every 2 weeks to get more, at $30 a vial. She's on purina DCO already and I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions about getting her blood sugar down a little less-expensively?

**We Hope** · 04-30-2008, 08:16 AM

Re: Sandy's Zoe - Welcome!

Sandy,

Some of the diabetes portion of Zoe's story is familiar. When Lucky was diagnosed, he responded well to human insulin for one week--after that, it was like giving him no insulin at all. The next insulin we tried was beef, because it has a longer activity in both dogs and people than human insulin does. He responded to that just as he did to the human insulin. Shortly after an insulin shot, the best we could do was to get into about 300 range--within 3-4 hours after the shot, we were back into the 500-600 and possibly more range.

If I watched Lucky, I could see when he'd "burned out" the insulin--his coat would become dull and lifeless--and we'd get the results that he was high when I'd see that. Going to resistance level with them did nothing to control his bg's. During that time he was constantly hungry and hyperactive from literally having too much glucose in his blood. With all of this, he never had ketones--we're grateful, but no idea how he didn't.

Lucky got nowhere until we switched him to pork Lente insulin (at that time only Lilly had it in the US). He was also switched to canned W/D just before we started the new insulin. After being on W/D for 2 weeks and pork Lente insulin for one, Lucky had dropped 400 points, going into the mid 200's--a number we'd never been able to get from him before--so then it was a matter of tweaking from that point on.

Lucky's problem was immune-mediated insulin resistance; his body destroyed the "foreign" insulin just as it would a bacteria or virus. Later on, when Lilly discontinued their pork Lente insulin and we were forced to use their pork NPH for a bit, we discovered that his system was also not happy with the protamine suspension (a "foreign" protein) and different preservatives of that type of insulin. The only reason he had respectable bg's then was because the insulin itself was still pork. We contacted Intervet for assistance in filing with FDA for permission to import Caninsulin for his personal use; I believe he was the first US patient to start on Caninsulin/Vetsulin who was not in an earlier study.

With the U 100 Lilly pork Lente insulin, we could keep him in the 100 range, but with the U 40 Caninsulin/Vetsulin, you could test him 8-10 hours after breakfast and morning insulin and he would give you an 85--in normal bg range for a non diabetic dog or person. I don't see anything in Zoe's curve that I'd call borderline hypoglycemic.

The semilente part of Caninsulin/Vetsulin has a profile similar to R in that it goes to work quickly and doesn't last a long time--the ultralente part of it starts working slower and lasts much longer. Going back to earlier times, semilente insulin was available on its own as a fast-acting insulin; a lot of people used it to cover their meals just as they use R or an analog fast/rapid acting insulin to do that now.

What we found in the comparison of the two insulins--U 100 Lilly pork Lente and U 40 Caninsulin/Vetsulin--was that because Caninsulin/Vetsulin is more dilute, it starts working sooner than the stronger U 100 one (also doesn't last as long). This meant that it was working when Lucky's meals began to digest and the bg's start rising--it handled his post-meal spike better. We were also able to adjust the Caninsulin/Vetsulin more, so that we could take a reading of 102 and turn it into a reading of 85.

I think if you can do some work on Zoe's food to eliminate the 200 point drop in 2 hours, you'll get a flatter, more even curve that would get rid of the mid 300's at 8 hours post food and insulin. She may indeed need a bit more insulin, but I'd love to be able to deal with that 200 point drop because when you're going down that rapidly, you can stir up the counteregulatory hormones that drive bg's up.

Welcome to you both!

**Zoe's Mom** · 04-30-2008, 12:23 PM

Re: Sandy's Zoe - Welcome!

Originally posted by We Hope View Post

Sandy,

I don't see anything in Zoe's curve that I'd call borderline hypoglycemic.

The thing about a borderline hypoglycemic episode isn't related to the particular curve she just had done.

Since the cushings started, there have been only 3 days (with daily urine testing) where Zoe tested negative for glucose. On the 2nd and 3rd days (which were about a week a part), I hadn't even intended to test her when I did since I really don't expect anything other than a positive result after hundreds of tests. Anyway, on the particular day, she did not greet me at the door when I got home. She always does that, even when she got sooo sick and had to be hospitalized in January. I had to call her several times to get her off her dog bed. Anyway, I brought her outside and she slowly walked to the grass to "relieve herself". I tested her urine and it was negative. So, I gave her some caro-syrup and she perked up a bit.

My concern with putting too much faith in the curve that the vet did was had I brought her in on what happened to be one of the 3 days where her urine had no glucose in it, I am sure the #s would have been in the 100's or even less. It is my concern that because of her cushings her BGs are varying greatly on a daily basis. If she got too low on the 14 units 2x a day, and hits another day where she is low for some reason, if I increase the dosage to say 14.5 or 15 units, I might endanger her. So, I am really leaning towards home-testing even though my vet discouraged it.

My step-dad is diabetic, and obviously checks his BG several times a day. I was wondering if with home testing, if I should be adjusting her dose of Vetsulin just like a human would or use the home BG testing for more long term monitoring to alter the dosages slowly. I was told (and have read) that it takes the dog's body several days to adjust to the new dosage, so I should change slowly, right?

Anyway, I have to run out and pick up my daughter from school. I'll check for replies later! Thanks! Sandy and Zoe

**BestBuddy** · 04-30-2008, 01:22 PM

Re: Sandy's Zoe - Welcome!

Welcome Sandy and Zoe,
Good to see you here.
Jenny & Buddy

**We Hope** · 04-30-2008, 01:34 PM

Re: Sandy's Zoe - Welcome!

Originally posted by Zoe's Mom View Post

The thing about a borderline hypoglycemic episode isn't related to the particular curve she just had done.

Since the cushings started, there have been only 3 days (with daily urine testing) where Zoe tested negative for glucose. On the 2nd and 3rd days (which were about a week a part), I hadn't even intended to test her when I did since I really don't expect anything other than a positive result after hundreds of tests. Anyway, on the particular day, she did not greet me at the door when I got home. She always does that, even when she got sooo sick and had to be hospitalized in January. I had to call her several times to get her off her dog bed. Anyway, I brought her outside and she slowly walked to the grass to "relieve herself". I tested her urine and it was negative. So, I gave her some caro-syrup and she perked up a bit.

My concern with putting too much faith in the curve that the vet did was had I brought her in on what happened to be one of the 3 days where her urine had no glucose in it, I am sure the #s would have been in the 100's or even less. It is my concern that because of her cushings her BGs are varying greatly on a daily basis. If she got too low on the 14 units 2x a day, and hits another day where she is low for some reason, if I increase the dosage to say 14.5 or 15 units, I might endanger her. So, I am really leaning towards home-testing even though my vet discouraged it.

My step-dad is diabetic, and obviously checks his BG several times a day. I was wondering if with home testing, if I should be adjusting her dose of Vetsulin just like a human would or use the home BG testing for more long term monitoring to alter the dosages slowly. I was told (and have read) that it takes the dog's body several days to adjust to the new dosage, so I should change slowly, right?

Anyway, I have to run out and pick up my daughter from school. I'll check for replies later! Thanks! Sandy and Zoe

Here's the thing about testing urine--you don't see glucose in urine unless you're over the renal threshold and stay there for a while--then glucose starts spilling into urine:

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Renal_threshold

http://www.vetsulin.com/vet/Monitoring_Urine.aspx

"Urine only tests positive for glucose if the blood glucose concentration remains above the renal threshold for a substantial period of time. This occurs when glycemia reaches 180-220 mg/dL (10-12.2 mmol/L) in the dog."

So a urine test can tell you if you're OK or not for high bg's (hyperglycemia), but it can't possibly tell you if you're too low (hypoglycemia) or simply OK. Testing blood for glucose with a meter can tell you exactly how you stand right after you do the test; it can tell you if you're high and how high, can tell you if you're low and how low, as well as if you're where you should be.

People with diabetes may be using any number of treatments to control their blood glucose. While it used to be that those with Type 2 were given oral meds for it, that trend has been changing and you now see some people who are not Type 1 (insulin-dependent) who are using some insulin as a treatment.

If we stick to those who are insulin-dependent for the sake of an example here, those who are Type 1 use 2 types of insulins. One which is either intermediate acting (Novolin N, Humulin N 70/30, Vetsulin) or long acting (the old Humulin U, Lantus, PZI, Levemir) for a basal--the body's basic needs without food:

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Basal

And a fast or rapid acting one (Novolin R, Humulin R, Novolog, Humalog, Apidra) to cover the meals they eat called bolus:

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Bolus

What most people are adjusting is their fast or rapid acting insulin that takes care of the meals they eat. It starts working quickly and doesn't have a lot of duration.

You're right about making changes with Zoe slower. Making too rapid or too many changes can get the counteregulatory hormones set into motion:

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/In...nts_to_insulin

These are the ones who raise the bg's when they think something's up such as hypoglycemia.

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Hy...emia#Aftermath

A single hypoglycemia or near hypoglycemia episode can result in hyperglycemia for up to 3 days following it. In response to the threat of low blood sugar, the body releases counter-regulatory hormones intended to raise bg's; the body's way of trying to save itself.

http://www.vetsulin.com/PDF/20585.pdf

Page 21-Somogyi Effect.

Making changes too fast or too many at once can also be what sets up Somogyi rebound where raising the insulin dose makes the bg's swing from highs to lows. When the bg's go too low, those counteregulatory hormones go to work and then send the bg's too high.

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Somogyi

This is a good example of how quick insulin changes start and keep Somogyi Rebound going.

Hope at least some of this helps!

**k9diabetes** · 04-30-2008, 09:00 PM

Re: Sandy's Zoe - Welcome!

Vets often discourage home testing, which is unfortunate. My guess is it's a combination of not knowing what to do with the information it provides since they are not taught much in the way of hands on management of blood sugar and also concern about losing control of the dog's diabetes management.

I understand the worry... some people will take the readings and use them to make bad decisions. Possibly even life threatening decisions.

But that's not what you're doing here. You just want more information.

After hearing about Zoe's couple of possibly hypo experiences, I know you could get a lot of benefit from home testing blood sugar because it's the only way to KNOW if the blood sugar is low. A negative urine test means the blood sugar is anywhere between 0 and 180 - not very specific!!

If all you ever do is use it to check for lows, it will be worthwhile.

I have yet to meet a vet among the dozen or so I've talked to about home testing who knows that blood can be taken somewhere other than the ear either. So they mostly are not familiar with how easy it is and how well tolerated it is. After all, ears aren't the easiest place to get blood from a dog so I can see how they would think it's difficult.

The great thing is none of the stuff requires a prescription so you don't need anyone's permission to home test. If you want to do it, go for it. I know you'll be glad you did.

You can start with just monitoring and talk over the information you gather with the vet to formulate the best insulin plan. Down the road, if you want to more actively manage Zoe's regimen you can. Or you can stick with you and the vet as a team.

Low cortisol will tend to make her sensitive to insulin so if the cortisol is dipping very low, even if just for part of the day, that would be a consideration for keeping her blood sugar higher to keep her safely above 85. You will have to watch her carefully if her cortisol levels are fluctuating.

And diet is a good way to make small changes in the balance of food and insulin to possibly flatten out her curve.

Natalie

**Zoe's Mom** · 05-01-2008, 09:23 AM

Re: Sandy's Zoe - Welcome!

Thanks for ALL the great information. She's already on diabetic dog food, so other than feeding her at different times or in small meals throughout the day, what else could I do to flatten the curve??? or would I just play with the feeding schedule and do curves at home to see what works best?

Also, on her diet, she is still starving. The vet says to feed her more. I've been giving her a mid-afternoon snack and upped the volume she gets at 7:30 a.m. and p.m. as well. Obviously this will play havoc on the BGs as well. I asked the vet if instead of feeing her more of her kibble that I could give her a snack of something low carb like cottage cheese-- but he suggested something high fiber like broccoli. I recall reading something about that certain diets are good for diabetic dogs but that the opposite type of diet is good with cushings. I was wondering if you had any suggestions about additional snacks for her.

My heart goes out to her with this blindness. Do you have any suggestions about how to make her more confident and/or comfortable with it? She walked nose first into my bedroom door yesterday (it is usually wide open and was just cracked and she didn't see it). We already are trying to keep all the walking path's clear (of children's toys/debris) and have installed a motion controlled flood-light into our dog run that is activated when she uses the doggy door (so she can find her way back inside at night).

I've read that a lot of people use the glucopet monitor, and I looked at it online but the $100 pricetag is high. Is there a human monitor that might work or do you know of any place I can buy a used glucopet monitor (from someone who's sweet pup has passed on)?

**k9diabetes** · 05-01-2008, 10:06 AM

Re: Sandy's Zoe - Welcome!

Hi Sandy,

I just have a minute now and will reply more about diet later.

I think it's easiest to start home testing with a regular meter for people.

You can usually get them free or nearly free after a rebate and the strips are much less expensive also.

There is some variation with the meters when used on dogs - they tend to read the BG somewhat low. But it's a great place to start and once you get home testing down and get an idea of how accurate your meter is with Zoe, you can move on to an animal-adjusted meter if you want.

I use a OneTouch Ultra - have had it three years and have tested it many times against lab values. It's a consistent average of 30 points low on Chris' blood sugar. I buy the strips through hocks.com where they are less expensive than if I buy them at a pharmacy. I paid nothing for the meter after a rebate.

The thing with animal adjusted meters like GlucoPet and AlphaTrak (I have or have had both) is they don't actually read a dog's blood sugar more accurately. Instead they have been adjusted to bring the readings to the average difference on the meter with a dog's blood in a number of tests. So they can be very accurate, if your dog fits the average. They too can be inaccurate. Given the expense, I prefer to use my OneTouch Ultra.

OneTouch is a good meter with many dogs. Bayer Contour is another I've seen used frequently. Freestyle tends to be good with smaller dogs so might be a good choice with Zoe.

It isn't the meter that's the big cost over time - it's the strips.

More later on tweaking diet... most likely a carby addition to her meal that would be converted to glucose quickly to match that fast drop in blood sugar during the first two hours.

Natalie

**ladysmom06** · 05-01-2008, 10:16 AM

Re: Sandy's Zoe - Welcome!

Hi Sandy,

Welcome to you and Zoe. I've been following your story on the cushing's board - my Lady also has diabetes and cushing's. Having both diseases can make things more complicated. We use trilo for the cushing's and Humulin N for the diabetes. Lady is doing really well

- it took us awhile to get both diseases regulated but it can be done. She is on a homecooked diet and I hometest. She was dx with diabetes in Sept.06 and I didn't start hometesting till Feb 07. I test her from the ear - wish there was somewhere else to do it but she won't let me anywhere near her mouth - I did try the tail and I could never get enough blood there. Hometesting gives you such peace of mind - my vet really encouraged me to do it. I took Lady to the vet and had one of the techs show me how to do it. It really isn't hard at all - if I can do it anyone can. I use the one touch ultra meter - it doesn't require a lot of blood. When I bought it I had a rebate coupon so it didn't end up costing anything. In the beginning I used a lot of strips - really wasted a ton of them - now I know better to wait until the blood beads before testing - still waste one now and then when she won't stay still. Lady gets 2 meal a day - around 6 in the morning and 6 in the evening followed by 5 units of Humulin. We added a small meal at night right before bedtime - she was dropping low and I was afraid she would go lower while I was sleeping and I wouldn't know. That's where the home testing helps a lot. When she was first dx I used the urine sticks but they were never consistent with the curves the vet was doing - I just use them now and then to check for ketones.

Sorry if you mentioned it but when did Zoe start the trilo? Before Lady started the trilo her bg's were all over the place. Even after being on trilo for a few weeks with her cortisol #'s coming down - her bg's were still high. We started getting flat curves first and then after a couple of months her bg's were finally down where the vet wanted them. Is Zoe due for another ACTH test soon and what dose of trilo is she on? Good luck with Zoe - I'm sending positive thoughts that you can get this all sorted out. Hugs to the two of you.

**Zoe's Mom** · 05-01-2008, 02:45 PM

Re: Sandy's Zoe - Welcome!

Hi Lynne & Lady,

Zoe started Trilo on Feb. 4 or 5, 50 mgs 1 x a day...so we are at about 3 months on it now. She just had a follow up ACTH and the vet says she isn't due for a while now. I'll probably go pick up a glucose meter later today or tomorrow. I really wish I had been more proactive and ignored my vet's advise to not do home testing... It has already been over a year with diabetes. I'll post again after I actually try to test her. :-) Sandy

**k9diabetes** · 05-01-2008, 09:32 PM

Re: Sandy's Zoe - Welcome!

Hi Sandy,

Tweaking Diet

Diabetic dog food may actually be contributing to the large difference between her highest and lowest blood sugars. Not that you have to change it. There are other ways to tweak the diet and in this case I would simply add something readily digestible and even a little carby and give it to her with her meal and injection. Could be a cracker or some rice or some bread... is there something along those lines that she likes?

That 30% semilente part of the insulin is going to work faster than her food is being digested. I put up a general discussion of the balance of food and insulin here: http://www.k9diabetes.com/insulinfood.html.

Diabetic dog foods are designed to be digested slowly and last a long time with the idea of being digested and converted to sugar at approximately the same speed as the dog's body absorbs and uses the insulin injected. But Vetsulin sometimes works too fast for diabetic dog foods, which causes that quick drop in blood sugar from 300s to 100s during the first couple of hours.

So you can add some food to her meal that should be digested and converted to glucose quickly. Starches work well. For some rice works well. You may have to experiment a bit to see what Zoe likes and works well for her. You'd keep her schedule the same, only changing what she's being fed by adding something that will get going fast.

All of which can wait until you get testing sorted out and take a look at what her blood sugar is doing during the day. There's no huge rush to make diet changes as she's fairly well regulated now.

Hunger and Snacks

As far as being hungry, how is her weight?

That's what I would go by as far as increasing, decreasing, or maintaining how much food she's getting.

If you do want her to gain some weight, then you can increase the amount of food and you will probably need to increase the insulin some too. I can't tell you how much but home testing will sort that out for you.

Broccoli is a great snack if she will eat it as it's extremely low in calories and the glycemic index. It's like a freebie snack. Chris wouldn't eat a piece of broccoli if you paid him but some dogs really love it.

I wouldn't give cottage cheese in the afternoon. In fact, I wouldn't give a snack in the afternoon (other than broccoli or green beans) at all based on the curve you posted. Her insulin's effect is waning in the afternoon and any snack will drive up her blood sugar.

I'm not aware of any dietary suggestions for Cushings and typically with diabetics the diabetes controls the diet as it's such a huge player in their regulation. But the Cushings folks can correct me about the diet... I think it may be that Cush dogs tend to be prone to pancreatitis so fat would be limited. That may be the issue.

Blindness

Chris has been blind for nearly four years now. Since I don't know Zoe, I don't know how she will respond but I can tell you that probably 95% of all the diabetic dogs I've seen through message boards over the years adjusted quickly and well to being blind, almost always better than their humans adjusted to it.

We were devastated when Chris lost his sight. Chris? Not so much.

Until he got too old to do it, he went on daily walks, traveled with us, staying in strange places and motel rooms, went wading and even swimming in the river on a long lead... most of what he used to do. He just heads out and figures we will protect him from most of the bumps in life. He learned to navigate the house and we limit furniture moving as much as possible, though we have moved a few things around and he has adjusted.

You've done some great things already! Just check around for obstacles that could hurt her, like sharp pointy things in the house or yard or uncovered pools. We put throw pillows in front of a sharp corner on a media stand... stuff like that. Some people use scents or runners to mark common paths through the house.

But you will probably find that Zoe is very resilient and flexible and learns to get along just fine. Fortunately for dogs, they don't lie around wailing "Why me, why me.... oh poor me!" We usually do that part for them!

They get on with life, which is one of the things I love about them.

-------

Okay, that's enough prattling on for tonight! Good luck with home testing. I know you'll love it.

Natalie

**Zoe's Mom** · 05-02-2008, 03:52 PM

Re: Sandy's Zoe - Welcome!

Hi Natalie,
I bought a Freestyle (Freedom Lite) monitor. Did some test runs on myself to make sure it was working, and it was amazing the difference in readings from one minute to the next. So then I tried it on Zoe at 3:00 and it said 216. I didn't believe it so I tried it again and it said 364. I've read that with human monitors you need to do some sort of conversion. For instance, a link on this website regarding glucose monitors shows there is a substantial difference between what the meters say. http://www.animaldiabetes.com/validation
I saw comments by others about finding a 40 pt. - 25 pt. difference between their meters and the vets. What am I supposed to do? Bring her to the vet & compare their results? Thanks. Sandy

**k9diabetes** · 05-02-2008, 04:03 PM

Re: Sandy's Zoe - Welcome!

While there can be some small difference in two readings taken close together, the difference should not be nearly as much as you got.

Which suggests that there's a problem with the meter or the strips, the coding, or how you're filling the strips. I don't think those readings are accurate.

I would expect two readings taken close together, whether on you or on Zoe, to vary by less than 30 points and generally by quite a bit less than 30.

Congrats on getting two tests from Zoe!!!!

At some point you will want to check your meter against some blood drawn by the vet and analyzed with a lab machine. But you don't have to worry about that yet. First, you'll need to figure out what's not working with the current meter as I have no doubt there's a problem there somewhere.

Will write more later,

Natalie

**Zoe's Mom** · 05-03-2008, 09:49 AM

Re: Sandy's Zoe - Welcome!

Hi Natalie,
Alright. I tried again today to see if the problem was me or the monitor. I read the directions carefully it appears I was scraping the test strip against the test site (and it says not to do that) so maybe that messed it up? Anyway, I tested myself first without scraping it and within seconds of each other I got 89, 114,113, 100 and 98 (just plowing through these test strips!) These all seem to be within 20% of each other (better than my range of 40 - 159 yesterday), so the monitor should be fine, right? So I should be at about 100 right? Then I did Zoe and she got 222 and 191. So, she probably has around 200, right? And if that is true, then what does she really have? Thanks! Sandy (and Zoe)

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Sandy's Zoe - Sweet Zoe has passed on

Sandy's Zoe - Sweet Zoe has passed on

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