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**Harley PoMMom** · 05-16-2009, 07:02 AM

Re: We're back...

Hi Tammy, Crash, & Darby,

I know just how you feel about losing the ccnet forum site, I was frantic until Leslie (Squirt's Mom) found me and told me about the K9diabetes site and how Natalie is letting us use this forum for our Cushpups.

My Harley was just recently diagnosed with atypical cushings, he has been on the Melatonin and the pressed flax hulls w/lignans for alittle over a week.

I was happy to see in your post that Crash is doing so well on this treatment plan, how long did it take to see results?

And what bloodwork are you having done for his three month mark?

Just wanted to know bc of Harley being atypical, if I should having bloodwork done in three months too?

Anyways, so glad you found us here.

**Lulusmom** · 05-16-2009, 07:26 AM

Re: We're back...

Hi Tammy,

I am so glad that you found us. I was able to find your previous posts via Google and have copied and pasted below. I don't see where you posted the results of the UTK panel so it would be great if you could do that for us. I believe the bloodwork that Lori is asking about is another UTK panel to see how effective the melatonin and fso has been in bringing down the elevated hormones, right?

Glynda

03-16-2009, 06:57 PM
Tamarah

finally....a diagnosis....now what? (Crash) 11 y/o beagle/schnauzer mix - (Atypical)

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Hello -
I am so glad I found this website. Crash, my 11 year old beagle/schnauzer mix, was diagnosed with Atypical Cushings as of Friday the 13th. I'm not superstitious, but find it may be a bit ironic after 6 weeks or so of testing, testing, liver biopsy, and still more testing. We had gone in January 31 for his annual exam and the doctor does the extra bloodwork with the senior dogs. Crash's liver enzymes and white cell count were high and further testing began. Diabetes, cushings, cholesterol, triglycerides, liver utrasound, liver biospy for possible cancer and everything was coming back negative or normal. Doctor then suggested an adrenal panel to the University of Tennessee. So we know now what Crash has and we've started on Flaxseed oil and Melatonin. I have no idea what to expect with all of this. Crash still shows no signs of being sick except for the excess water he's drinking. I'm hoping that all the inbalance in his body can be brought under control and that he can live as normal a life as he was meant to live. I couldn't bear anything worse having lost my yellow lab and Crash's best friend less than a year ago to an autoimmune disorder. I have asked many questions of my vet and he's been wonderful. I have read many of the forums these past few days and that has helped my formulate even more questions for him. I am just looking for any information I can get and this website, I'm finding, has been a great place to start.

Tamarah

03-17-2009, 04:21 AM
mytil

Re: finally....a diagnosis....now what?

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Hi,

I wanted to welcome you to our site and am glad you found us.

I am glad you now have a diagnosis. There are many here who have Atypical cushpups and I know they will be chiming in shortly. When you get the chance, post the test results of panel from UTK so we can see the hormone elevations.

Also let us know about the dosage amount you are giving your Crash.

I am very sorry to read about your Lab also. My deepest sympathies.

Terry

mytil

03-17-2009, 10:09 AM
Leslie-n-Squirt

Re: finally....a diagnosis....now what? (Crash) 11 y/o beagle/schnauzer mix - (Atypic

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Hi and welcome to you and Crash!

I am VERY impressed that your vet knew about Atypical and the UTK panel! That is not common around here!

My Squirt is Atypical, also. She is taking melatonin, 3mg 2X/day and purified lignans, 40mg 1X/day. Several of us have gone to the purified lignans VS the FSO with lignans. By the way, it is the lignans that are important, not the FSO (flax seed oil) itself. Be sure the bottle says "with lignans". Bear in mind it can take 3-4 months to see changes sometimes, so don't get discouraged meantime.

As Terry said, if you don't mind, please post the actual results of the UT panel with the units of measurements and normal ranges. This will give us more info to be able to help you better. Actually, the more you can tell us about Crash and his medical history, the better. We just love details! But we don't get really nosy til we know you better.

I am glad you found us and hope to hear more from you soon. BTW, what is your name if you don't mind sharing? "Hey you" is kinda impersonal, ya know?

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

03-17-2009, 05:07 PM
Tamarah

Crash's adrenal panel results

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A big thank you to Terry and Leslie for your kind and encouraging words as well as a very warm welome!
I'm still so new at all the cushings jargon, but both of you suggested posting Crash's official results of his panel. The more information the better I know. I surely don't know what all this means, but his results (baseline) - those above normal range were Androstenedione 0.7; Estradiol 95.6;
Progesterone 0.27 and his results (post ACTH) were Cortisol 188.9; Androstenedione 3.5; Estradiol 85.8; Progesterone 1.60. This all said, what does it all mean? Am I to concern myself with the baseline results or the post ACTH or both? Doctor started Crash on 6mg of Melatonin twice a day and 1 teaspoon Flaxseed Oil with Lignans once a day. The woman at the health food grocery thought that 6mg twice a day was pretty much Melatonin for a 35 pound dog, what do you think? As stated earlier, Crash's doctor is so very good about taking all my questions. If anyone can think of questions I should be asking of him, please advise.
Thanks again! I feel like family already.

Tammy & Crash

Tamarah
03-30-2009, 05:35 PM

Re: finally....a diagnosis....now what? (Crash) 11 y/o beagle/schnauzer mix - (Atypic

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Hello everyone -

Well it's been a little over two weeks and Crash and I seem to be doing alright. He takes his melatonin and flax seed oil without too much complaint. It's just been a lot to take in. I read the forums daily and they've been a wonderful source of new questions to ponder and/or ask the doctor, insight to the future, answers, and above all a support system that has been so vital. Crash still does not exhibit many symptoms. As I had said earlier the extra water intake was the only thing out of the ordinary that I noticed. I have though of late been noticing the increased appetite. So now I have a question. Does the metabolism change with cushings and Crash needs more calories? Would a higher protein or higher fiber food be better for him? I hate that Crash is hungry, but I don't want to overfeed him. Thoughts please.

Tammy and Crash

03-30-2009, 06:03 PM
hfurlotte

Re: finally....a diagnosis....now what? (Crash) 11 y/o beagle/schnauzer mix - (Atypic

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Hi Tammy,
I just wanted to say hello and welcome. Our Zoe was diagnosed in early Feb with "atypical cushings" and she has been on the melatonin and FSO with lignans since the results came back from UTK as well she as well take a Ketoconizole and the combination is working well for her now. We did start with the recommended 6mg twice a day but she ran into a little issue so we initially dropped the Melatonin and FSO but had restarted it with 3mg twice a day and when we saw she needed some more tweeking we increased the night time and she is doing fairly well. You will notice the first thing to change will probably be the crashes coat and the hunger does come undercontrol. We saw Zoe's incontinence and thrist change before her hunger. You have come to a good spot for some wonderful information. It is great you are working closely with your Vet as well. There is a right combination for Crash. Good luck and keep in touch.
Heather and Zoe Claire

hfurlotte

03-30-2009, 06:22 PM
Miko's Mom

Re: finally....a diagnosis....now what? (Crash) 11 y/o beagle/schnauzer mix - (Atypic

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Hi Tammy, Welcome. You have come to right place. Miko gained alot of weight too. Now he isn't so ravenous so hang in there. Christine

Miko's Mom

03-30-2009, 06:25 PM
gpgscott

Re: finally....a diagnosis....now what? (Crash) 11 y/o beagle/schnauzer mix - (Atypic

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Hi Tammy and welcome to you and Crash,

Sorry I did not repond to your earlier post, I just missed it

Please disregard the heathfood person's advice. You are pushing the melatonin and lignans to block access by overproduction of hormones, she has no idea.

And I would suggest you move from the flaxseedoil to purified lignans. You can get them at vitacost.com the brand is NSI and they are in a 40mg gelcap. There are other sources of loose pressed flax hulls which are the same in a different presentation, I prefer the lignans in the gelcaps.

I would not allow an increase in food allowance over what is appropriate for his age/size, you can supplement with things like green beans and carrots which may satisfiy the munchies without adding lots of calories.

Scott

Tammy, missed this part earlier and another member PM'ed me about it; you said;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamarah
The woman at the health food grocery thought that 6mg twice a day was pretty much Melatonin for a 35 pound dog, what do you think?

I don't know of anyone being prescribed over 6mg total daily, split as 3mg am and 3 mg pm. Please confirm the dose.

Scott

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gpgscott

Yesterday, 05:32 PM
Tamarah

Re: finally....a diagnosis....now what? (Crash) 11 y/o beagle/schnauzer mix - (Atypic

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Scott -

I just wanted to say thanks for the advice of adding green beans or carrots to Crash's diet. He LOVED the green beans, but not so crazy about the carrots. His brother, Darby, wouldn't even eat them. Oh well, carrots would be good for me too.

Tammy, Crash, & Darby

Tamarah

Yesterday, 06:04 PM
gpgscott

Re: finally....a diagnosis....now what? (Crash) 11 y/o beagle/schnauzer mix - (Atypic

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Hi Tammy,

If you are using canned green beans use the no salt added, a dog really does not know the difference and there is LOTS of salt in regular canned. Fresh is better when you can get em.

Scott

**Miko's Mom** · 05-16-2009, 07:34 AM

Re: We're back...

I Tammy I can relate to the "lost and lonely." Our cc family is getting me through the worst part of being a furkid mom. Glad you found us. Christine

**Tamarah** · 05-16-2009, 09:45 AM

Re: We're back...

Glynda -
Wow, you found my previous posts. I definitely glad to be back because I have learned so much from all of you. Here's Crash's results from UTK....

Cortisol 53.6 baseline; 188.9 post ACTH
Androstenedione 0.7 baseline; 3.5 post ACTH
Estradiol 95.6 baseline; 85.8 post ACTH
Progesterone 0.27 baseline; 1.60 post ACTH
17 OH Progesterone 0.21 baseline; 2.07 post ACTH
Aldosterone 13.1 baseline; 163.1 post ACTH

I still don't understand what much of that all means. I read this as four of the six are above the normal ranges. All very confusing yet. I do believe since Crash never showed many signs of being sick that this was all caught very early and that we are very lucky. Still I worry and hover like any over-protective mom would.

To you Glynda and to Lori -

Crash's vet said to bring Crash back in after three months for bloodwork. I wondered if it was another full panel or what would be done. He told me he would be checking Crash's liver enzyme levels. With that he could tell whether the melatonin and FSO has had any effect. He had told me that it would be at least three months before we would see any noticeable results.

The only symptoms that Crash really ever exhibited was the excess water intake. I have notice in the last few weeks that has gotten better - he doesn't jump over me at night to go for water and then back over me to get back in bed. I continue to watch his hair and skin. The hair on his belly really hasn't grown back since being shaved for his liver biospy and that worries me some also. I have my notebook full of questions when we go.

I am curious about the pressed flax hulls with Lignons instead of the FSO though. Looking through Crash's file I don't have the treatment option sheet attached from UTK panel results and will question the doctor when we go.

I have missed everyone and again, it is great to be back!
Tammy, Crash, and Darby

**Squirt's Mom** · 05-16-2009, 10:15 AM

Re: We're back...

Hi Tamara,

Welcome back to you and Crash! Losing cc.net was a tragedy but we are moving on and up. We will come out of this stronger and closer than ever!

Here is a link to the UTK treatment sheet:

http://www.vet.utk.edu/diagnostic/en...ushing%27s.pdf

It does take a few months to start seeing results with the Atypical treatments so don't get discouraged. It seem the hair is one of the things that takes some time but the melatonin will help with that in time. Squirt's belly is so hairy now I have to part it to see her skin!

Glad you found us again!
Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

**Harley PoMMom** · 05-16-2009, 10:23 AM

Re: We're back...

Tammy,

Hopefully I posted this link to the UTK treatment option sheet right:

http://www.vet.utk.edu/diagnostic/endocrinology/pdf/Steroid%20Profiles%20for%20Diagnosis%20of%20Atypic al%20Cushing's.pdf

When I e-mailed Dr. Oliver, I asked him when I should have a full adrenal panel redone on Harley, his response was 6 months, that's why I was wondering what tests you were having done in 3 months.

Harley's belly hair (shaved bc of his u/s) is slowing growing back, just feels like fuzz on a peach.

The pressed flax hulls w/lignans I purchased at http://www.flaxhulls.com/order.html which was listed on the UTK treatment Option sheet. It's of powdered substance that you sprinkle on their food, for Harley's weight of 20.8 lbs, he get 1/2 tsp SID.

You sound like me, I'm a hoverer too, I am constantly looking at Harley, watching his every move, prodding his hair, skin. But, isn't that what they call a good MOM

**Lulusmom** · 05-16-2009, 11:19 AM

Re: We're back...

Hi Tammy,

Lulu had an adrenal panel back in August and since then, UTK has changed some of the normal baseline and post ACTH ranges. None of them changed too terribly much so I feel comfortable commenting based on the ranges on Lulu's panel. It appears that Crash has some pretty elevated estradiol, both baseline and stimulated. When estradiol is the only intermediate that is elevated, I believe the actual diagnosis is called Hyperestrinism. Crash's cortisol would be considered borderline so yes, I believe the recommended treatment in Crash's case was probably limited to melatonin and fso, at least for the first three or four months.

I call estradiol the demon intermediate because according to Dr. Oliver, if estradiol is elevated, a dog will almost always already have severe liver disease with enlarged liver. Dogs will also have very elevated alkaline phosphatase enzymes so your vet is spot on in checking the liver enzymes. A marked decrease is indicative that the melatonin and fso is effectively lowering the estradiol.

Dr Oliver indicated to me that it is the lignans, not the oil in fso, that competes with estradiol for the tissue estrogen receptors. With less receptor available, less estradiol is produced. Since fso has a very negligible amount of lignans and given Crash's marked elevation in estradiol, I personally would choose either the purified lignans or pressed flax hulls in lieu of the fso. After two years on Trilostane, Lulu's estradiol, as well as all the other intermediates, were horribly elevated and I switched her to purified lignans. I also have a jar of the pressed flax hull which I will start using once the purified lignans are gone. I've provided the links to both products below:

http://www.vitacost.com/NSI-Flax-See...F-835003002498
http://www.flaxhulls.com/flaxhulls.html

Glynda

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