Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Our precious Blackjack...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Our precious Blackjack...

    Wow...This has been quite the experience already and ours has just started with a definite diagnosis on March 5th. I feel that I have read and re-read just about everything I can about dogs and diabetes online!

    My Blackjack is presently 11 years and 7 months old, which I know is getting up there in years for a big guy! But..this guy has been been lucky to have had a pretty healthy life up until this. (and he was a much bigger guy, down to 78 lbs. from his previous 93 lbs.) Up until his diagnosis (and subsequent weakness in his hind legs) he was walking two miles just about daily. (weather permitting). He has some issues with a bit of arthritis, but I have always felt that the walks helped him with it.

    All of a sudden, it seems, we noticed excessive thirst and LARGE urine spots overnight, which had never been an issue before. That lead us to the vet visit; the chem panel,urinalysis,etc. that pointed to the diabetes. I cannot believe now that I was actually almost relieved to hear him say that it was diabetes, thinking that at least it was a condition that can hopefully be controlled, as opposed to some of the other reasons that could not be treated. Ha...Little did I know that we would still be in the process of trying to get him regulated yet at this point...which I know it not really THAT long when I read of other's experiences in the forum!

    Right after his "official diagnosis", he started to get the rear leg weakness, which was really bad for awhile, where we would have to help get him into the standing position, and prop his legs where they should be and help him take steps and lift him up over any obstacle (stairs) My vet didn't really give me any answer as to what this was, but I gathered from what I read on line that it was diabetic neuropathy and that there was hope that he would recover from it eventually after blood glucose levels were brought down. (Kind of gave us the encouragement that we needed to go on with him in that condition.)

    The vet I go to is into the holistic medicine as well as traditional, so prescribed some Chinese herbal supplements for him a couple weeks ago, to help with symptoms of diabetes. Maybe they have helped, because it was shortly after that that we started noticing slow improvement with the usage and strength of his back legs. He is doing a lot better now, and that gives me great encouragement as far as that goes.

    However, I am starting to wonder if our vet is being overly conservative about the insulin. We started out in the beginning with 10 Humulin N units twice daily after having the blood glucose curve done at the office that first day. It was about a week after that that we took him to the local animal emergency clinic on a Saturday evening as his legs seemed especially bad. The vet there increased it to 15 units twice daily.

    We saw our vet again a week later, upped it 2 more units, recheck and one more,etc. Also had an ACTH stim test to make sure he didn't have Cushing's disease. I asked him if he would consider consulting with a vet specialist to see what their opinion for treatment would be and he did. He said that the other doctor recommended another blood glucose curve (we had just been doing spot BG checks in the afternoon mostly) Soooo...we had the blood glucose curve done on this past Monday..not good..still shows in the low to high 400's and even hit 500! He had me up the dose a couple more units, so now we are at 21 units twice daily and supposed to come back in two weeks for another check.

    I am really starting to get disheartened with the treatment plan. I know that the other doctor had told him that "we have a long way to go with the insulin dosage" for Blackjack yet and that the dose is not even close to showing that he is insulin resistant. I am still waiting to hear from my vet as to what the specialist has said about the blood glucose curve results. I feel that this should be progressing faster than it has been and without such a big wait in between.

    I am considering taking Blackjack and all his results to another vet in the area, who is a certified internal medicine vet, to get his opinion on what route he would be taking with him The only thing that has really given me encouragement is that his walking has become so much better and he continues to show improvement and gaining strength and endurance with his legs each day! Sorry so long and wordy! Thanks for reading this!

  • #2
    Re: Blackjack is diabetic?!

    Hi and welcome to the forum! Blackjack was started on a very low dosage, but you're now in a better range. I need to ask you what your dog eats, how often? Do you feed and then give him his insulin? Has the vet every done a curve? We really need to see one for him. Are you considering home testing? Its true that Blackjack has a ways to go before insulin resistant!! Don't get disheartened, we've all been there. Some dogs need less, some more. The key though is to know how he's doing. Curves are the best way to see patterns that we can work with! Let us know if you have any of the info and we'll be here for you!
    Forbin, miss you every day. See you at the bridge Buddy.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Blackjack is diabetic?!

      Welcome to the forum! What breed is blackjack?

      I know this is probably not what you want to hear, but just being dx in March and not being regulated yet is not unreasonable. My Decker has been at it since early Nov. 2011 and we still see mostly 400-500's. He is 95-98lbs and currently on 35u. Was overdosed at 40u when his whole journey began. Reduced him to 20u which was still too high at the time and then to 15u. Have worked our way back up since mid-December. At the rate he is going he will be well over 40u before he hits regulation. Just needed to be taken there slowly and safely. He seems to follow the old saying that every dog is different and that some dogs just take longer to get where they need to be.

      The good news is that dogs handle the higher bg than humans. I would recommend testing Blackjack's urine for ketones while the bg is at the 400-500 range though. You can pick up test sticks at nearly any pharmacy - found ours in the diabetic section at Wal-mart. Even in his elevated range, most often Decker's drinking and potty habits as well as his behavior are pretty normal as long as his bg does not fluctuate 100 points or more in an hours time. He is sensitive to the bouncing around.

      I am curious about the mid-day testing and the exercise. Some dogs do hit their low point at mid-day, however, there are many that don't. Decker is one who doesn't typically drop his lowest until around the time of his next injection - about 10-12 hours into his insulin. Guess he has never read the book which tells vets that diabetic dogs should hit their low point six hours in. So if you are seeing 400 -500 mid day, there is a chance Blackjack is hitting a lower number that is being overlooked. Given the weight and units, overdosing would be unlikey, however, unless a curve is being done (where bg is tested prior to morning shot and every two hours until evening shot) there is still a possibility that the maintenance dose has been overshot. If home testing is something you would consider I would highly recommend doing so.


      Decker also gets large drops from a 20 minute walk. Just tonight he was 414 pre-walk. Gave him one milk bone to stop a big drop. Post walk was 234 - clearly we should have given him a second milk bone. When he has big drops he spikes back up higher than his initial drop so unless we are able to minimize the drop - exercise does not assist with lowering his bg for long.

      Hope some of this info. has helped. I know I've found this to be an illness that has a lot of variables and requires more patience than I ever realized I had. Hang in there and check in here frequently. Lots of folks with great feedback that can help out. Holli
      Holli & Decker // diagnosed November 5th, 2011 // Journeyed to the bridge January 26th, 2013, surrounded by his family at home // 9 years old // Levemir insulin // Hypothyroid // C1-C5 cervical spinal lesion // weight 87 lbs // Run with the wind my sweet boy. Run pain free. Holding you close in my heart till we meet again!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Blackjack is diabetic?!

        Welcome! Peggy has already asked the best questions. Yes, it takes a while to begin to see results, especially at first. But if you give too much insulin and get rebound, you have to reduce and basically start over. We have at least one member who had to do that mainly because the vet was too aggressive with the insulin dose at first.

        We've all been through this and understand the frustration. Hang in there!

        Mary
        Ruffles May 1997~~12/6/2010~~She was "a heartbeat at our feet"~~
        Izzy--BD unknown;~~ RIP 7/13/2013 ~~; she was a sweet Yorkie spirit and we miss her
        Bella--Yorkie rescue; BD 9/2013 +/-; RIP 5/2015
        Ruby--senior Yorkiepoo foster

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Blackjack is diabetic?!

          Thank you all for the replies and encouragement! Blackjack is an accidental "goldador"...lol..He is the product of a golden retriever father and a labrador mother. I guess now they are producing this blend on purpose, from what I have heard for some therapy work.He has the best temperament and is just the nicest dog ever! (But don't tell my other two dogs I said that.)The vet has done two blood glucose curves. One was the very first day that I brought him in after the diagnosis and the more recent one was this past Monday. I do not have a copy of it at this time, but I did look at the numbers and none of them were below 400 and one was well past 500. It almost looked like the lowest reading was three hours post food and insulin. Would that be likely? That to me was very discouraging as his number was at 573 when he was diagnosed. I feed him twice daily at twelve hours apart and give him his insulin injection immediately afterwards. Our vet had recommended a higher protein food, with low carbs and more fiber would be good too. I have been giving him one and a half cups of Merrick's before grain chicken dry food mixed with some ground turkey that I cook up and a blend of broccoli,cauliflower and green beans, cooked and mushed up a bit with the turkey. I also give him about 1/3 to 1/2 can of wet food at the same time with the herbal supplement mixed in there. For the canned, I also have been going with the Merrick's brand, either the Whole Earth farms adult or one of the Merrick's 5 star entrees that is specifically labeled to be low-glycemic. He gets this much at each feeding. I would like to start doing home blood glucose checks, but not sure about which glucometer to consider. My husband is diabetic and has a human one. Was wondering if you think it might do the job? I was thinking of bringing it in with him for one of the spot checks and seeing how it compares with the readings. Also, do most of you actually do the venous draw or the prick? Thanks again for the feedback!

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Blackjack is diabetic?!

            We used the ReliOn (human) meter and supplies from Wal-Mart due to cost. Not the most accurate, but it helped to determine trends, etc. Ruffles began with readings over 600 and stayed in the 500-600 range for about two weeks. For home testing, we used the inner, upper lip.

            So if you're in the 400s and 500s, you are already better off than we were at the beginning. We fed Ruffles the Before Grain, too. Of course, she was a much smaller dog than Blackjack!

            Glad to have you here. Keep posting!

            Mary
            Ruffles May 1997~~12/6/2010~~She was "a heartbeat at our feet"~~
            Izzy--BD unknown;~~ RIP 7/13/2013 ~~; she was a sweet Yorkie spirit and we miss her
            Bella--Yorkie rescue; BD 9/2013 +/-; RIP 5/2015
            Ruby--senior Yorkiepoo foster

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Blackjack is diabetic?!

              Welcome! and hang on, it is a very bumpy ride for most of us, but listen to those in the know here as they give great advice, and us newbies give great support!

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Blackjack is diabetic?!

                Originally posted by Blackjack'smom View Post
                The vet I go to is into the holistic medicine as well as traditional, so prescribed some Chinese herbal supplements for him a couple weeks ago, to help with symptoms of diabetes. Maybe they have helped, because it was shortly after that that we started noticing slow improvement with the usage and strength of his back legs. He is doing a lot better now, and that gives me great encouragement as far as that goes.
                Hi Blackjack's Mom,

                My dog Watson displayed the same deal, limping on his front and hind leg and I thought it was due to him jumping when he shouldn't have and an old CCL injury, but you mentioned neuropathy and I think that may be what Watson may be suffering from because this weird losing his balance and his legs dropping out from under him started at the same time, and like you my vet did not give us any explanation for it and actually told me it was not related to the diabetes.

                So what is it that your vet prescribed that is herbal. I do holistic stuff for Watson. In fact with the diagnoses of diabletes I also noticed his lymp nodes filling up with fluid so I got a lymp detox topical spray and did that spray for about 2 weeks and the fluid has gone away, and that was a holistic approach, not a prescription, where actually the vet had no explanation or treatment to recommend. My vet is obviously not a holistic vet, more scientific I am learning than anything.

                So if you could reply with the herbs and homeopathic things you are doing for Blackjack I would really appreciate that.
                Watson: 11 year old Lab mix. Diagnosed 4/5/2012. - Went up on Dose 8/10/12 to 18 U Humulin N 2 x day. Diet: Horizon Legacy, freeze dried "Stella and Chewy's," - Separately prepared food 3 tbs of butternut squash puree mixed with 2.5 tsp 4Life Transfer Factor supplement, Flaxseed Meal, steamed broccoli and green beans.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Blackjack is diabetic?!

                  Hi Blackjack's mom and DocWatson,
                  You may want to read the post I just did for "just diagnosed-6 days ago"
                  Off to work so can't repost.

                  Talks about b12 in regards to diabetic nueropathy. Some food for thought.

                  Tara
                  Tara in honor of Ruby.
                  She was a courageous Boston Terrier who marched right on through diabetes, megaesophagus, and EPI until 14.
                  Lucky for both of us we found each other. I'd do it all again girly.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Blackjack is diabetic?!

                    Originally posted by Blackjack'smom View Post
                    Also, do most of you actually do the venous draw or the prick? Thanks again for the feedback!
                    We use the pricking method. For years I used the underside of Mildred's top lip, very few nerve endings with oodles of blood.
                    Others use a callous, the ear (usually not the best for a dog), or will shave an area at the base of the tail.

                    Eileen and Mildred, 12 yo Border Collie Mx, 24.6 pounds, dx diabetic/hypothyroid 2004, gallbladder removed 2005, cataract surgery 2005, spindle cell sarcoma removed 2009, stroke 2009, tail removed 2011, dx with bladder cancer 2011, CDS, Organix~chicken / NPH,Humalog

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Blackjack is diabetic?!

                      Hello DocWatson! The Chinese herbal supplement that Blackjack is currently taking is Jiang Tang and then after that it looks like a letter C..so Jiang Tang C. He gets a half a teaspoon mixed in some wet food twice daily. I cannot tell you how much it helps to read about other dogs having similar issues with the back legs. The vet didn't really tell me much about what he thought is was; did mention neuropathy, but said that it was not common in dogs, more so happens in cats. After reading yours and Harley's posts, I would say that they all sound similar and not just coincidental that the symptoms happened shortly after diagnosis. After having a good three to four weeks of very weak and unsteady back legs,we started observing small changes a couple weeks ago ; getting up on his own, remaining in the standing position longer and now he even negotiates in bigger step to hop back up on the back deck by himself. We are not able to do our old two mile walks by any means, but it is much easier for him to get into the back of the car with the other two dogs and go to our local state park, where he does a "mini" walk with me , while my husband takes the other two on the regular walk. Blackjack thinks that he wants to go with them and at first will try to pull and catch up, but there is no way we are ready for that, at least not yet! He still likes being part of everything though and doing the little walk. One other observation I have made that indicates to me that his back legs are getting stronger, is that he lifts one of his back legs again slightly when he is on the trail urinating!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Blackjack is diabetic?!

                        many folks use the human. It is different from doggy glucose but once you know the variance, it's fine for normal range of glucose. Once you get very low or very high it becomes less accurate. I'll find the link to the difference meters folks have used that show some of the point spread!
                        Forbin, miss you every day. See you at the bridge Buddy.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Blackjack is diabetic?!

                          Love the accidental "Goldador"

                          Wanted to add my belated welcome to you. I've had computer issues and haven't been able to get through all of the posts the last couple of days.

                          I have been giving him one and a half cups of Merrick's before grain chicken dry food mixed with some ground turkey that I cook up and a blend of broccoli,cauliflower and green beans, cooked and mushed up a bit with the turkey. I also give him about 1/3 to 1/2 can of wet food at the same time with the herbal supplement mixed in there. For the canned, I also have been going with the Merrick's brand, either the Whole Earth farms adult or one of the Merrick's 5 star entrees that is specifically labeled to be low-glycemic.
                          I wanted to mention with regard for food, exercise, etc. that consistency is really key in aiding regulation. Some even weigh out food for more consistent results.

                          As far as venous vs. capillary blood for measuring bg (blood glucose), the pet meter, Alphatrak, I believe is set up to measure either. But most glucometers measure capillary blood so I would want to test using these means when ever comparing a meter to lab results.

                          I would like to start doing home blood glucose checks, but not sure about which glucometer to consider. My husband is diabetic and has a human one.
                          What is the meter your husband uses? The Alphatrak meter is one designed for pets as there are differences in the size/shape of a dog's red blood cell. But the meter and strips can be quite expensive. I like the OneTouch Ultra2 meter. It will likely test a bit lower than actual but has a good reputation for consistency and can be compared to your vet's lab machine.

                          Again, welcome to you,
                          Patty
                          Patty and Ali 13.5yrs 47lbs diagnosed May '08 Ali earned her wings October 27, 2012, 4 months after diagnosis of a meningioma ~ Time is precious ~

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Blackjack is diabetic?!

                            Originally posted by Blackjack'smom View Post
                            Hello DocWatson! The Chinese herbal supplement that Blackjack is currently taking is Jiang Tang and then after that it looks like a letter C..so Jiang Tang C. He gets a half a teaspoon mixed in some wet food twice daily. I cannot tell you how much it helps to read about other dogs having similar issues with the back legs. The vet didn't really tell me much about what he thought is was; did mention neuropathy, but said that it was not common in dogs, more so happens in cats. After reading yours and Harley's posts, I would say that they all sound similar and not just coincidental that the symptoms happened shortly after diagnosis. After having a good three to four weeks of very weak and unsteady back legs,we started observing small changes a couple weeks ago ; getting up on his own, remaining in the standing position longer and now he even negotiates in bigger step to hop back up on the back deck by himself. We are not able to do our old two mile walks by any means, but it is much easier for him to get into the back of the car with the other two dogs and go to our local state park, where he does a "mini" walk with me , while my husband takes the other two on the regular walk. Blackjack thinks that he wants to go with them and at first will try to pull and catch up, but there is no way we are ready for that, at least not yet! He still likes being part of everything though and doing the little walk. One other observation I have made that indicates to me that his back legs are getting stronger, is that he lifts one of his back legs again slightly when he is on the trail urinating!
                            Thank you for that information and I am compelled to share with you what Harley's mom shared with me about the Methylcobalamin type B12.

                            From the following link of the brand, Solgar, I got because it is FREE OF the following: Gluten, Wheat, Dairy, Soy, Yeast, Sugar, Sodium, Artificial Flavor, Preservatives and Color.

                            http://www.solgar.com/SolgarProducts...cg-Nuggets.htm
                            Methylcobalamin is the active, coenzyme form of Vitamin B12. While the body can readily absorb Vitamin B12 as cobalamin, it must further convert it to a coenzyme form, methylcobalamin, to become metabolically active. In this form, it is bioidentical to the predominant and active form found in the body. The “body-ready” Vitamin B12 in this formula is offered in a convenient nugget dosage form which is also suitable for vegetarians.

                            This does contain Mannitol in the ingredients which it states about this: Provides a dietarily insignificant amount of sugar alcohol""

                            But every brand I checked all say the same thing so you cannot get it without that ingredient.

                            I spoke to my vet this morning and she pulled out her medical book about this form of B12, Methylcobalamin, and she said it didn't have anything int he book about doses taking orally, but did say the book stated getting 1 shot of the B12 Methylcobalamin for 4 - 6 weeks and then once per month afterward was the recommendation for providing dogs with this supplement. This is a natural form of B12 and I can only imagine an injection of the stuff would provide much more significant results if it were to help at all. It may be worth looking into, and my vet said it would cost approximately $30 per injection. But you can buy the nugget (pill) form for $10 and get 60 nuggets of which I just started today giving them to Watson and he will get 6 per day, so that will be $30 a month anyway.

                            Thank you for the information about the herbal stuff, Jiang Tang C, and I will do some research on that as well and speak to my vet about it on Monday when we go back in, maybe, for a curve test depending if she will accept the in depth and meticulous log I have been keeping for the past 2 weeks.

                            Watson also wobbles a little bit when he hikes his hind leg up to pee, and never did this until he started showing the symptoms of the diabetes and about 1 week before he was dx. But he is getting stronger in his legs and gets up much better now, but I won't let him jump in or out of the car or up on the day bed I have in my office or on our sofa. I pick him up and help him down, just to make sure he doesn't have any unnecessary pain. He has stopped all the whining and whimpering he was doing for the week before being diagnosed up and until the middle of the 2nd week after being diagnosed and my vet said that if a dog does develop neuropathy from diabetes that the insulin can help reduce the effects as long as we get them regulated and stable with a BG of about 150 to 250 throughout the day, but then again, this vet seems purely scientific and not prone to offer homeopathic or supplement advice.

                            All we can do is share what we learn, how things are going with the things we are trying, as each dog is different I am learning, and pray and hope for the best for our babies.

                            Peace,

                            Roy and Watson
                            Watson: 11 year old Lab mix. Diagnosed 4/5/2012. - Went up on Dose 8/10/12 to 18 U Humulin N 2 x day. Diet: Horizon Legacy, freeze dried "Stella and Chewy's," - Separately prepared food 3 tbs of butternut squash puree mixed with 2.5 tsp 4Life Transfer Factor supplement, Flaxseed Meal, steamed broccoli and green beans.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Blackjack is diabetic?!

                              Hi! where do you purchase the Jiang Tang C.? Thanks....
                              -Jennifer & Chloe. About Chloe: Almost 10 year old beautiful Chocolate Lab. Diagnosed 4/20/2012. Currently on 12 U Lantus N 2x day. Still testing and regulating. Diet: 1C Wellness Healthy Weight, 2C W/D Formula. Weight 67 lbs.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X