Diabetic Australian Cattle Dog

[Zoology1603]

Hello.



I have an upcoming vet visit tomorrow and hopefully someone can help me better prepare.

Australian Cattle Dog. 9 years old. Went to the vet on Aug 29 because of increased thirst and frequent urination. Vet took blood and tested urine. Vet says glucose was high and she probably had diabetes. Her other symptoms were panting all the time and increased hunger. Her weight was steady at 40lbs. She had very minor hair loss in a few places. The vet mentioned it also could be cushings. The vet wanted to run a LDDS test to make sure in order to treat the root cause of the diabetes. Took the dog back to the vet on Sept 6 for the LDDS blood test. After coming home, the panting stopped and her increased appetite reversed. Now you can feel her ribs but her increased thirst and frequent urination persists. She refuses to eat. When she does eat she'll take a bite and that is all she wants. On the 2 days where I was able to get her to eat meat she threw it all up at the end of the day. I've been forcing her to eat moist dog food to keep her going. Went back to the vet on Sept 13 where she received fluids and was sent home with cerenia and omeprazle for her upset stomach. I had noticed the water becoming dirty in the morning but didn't think about it being anything other than that until today when I realized it was blood from her mouth. I looked inside and only saw blood at the gum line around one tooth. The tooth looks fine and is not loose. I purchased an AlphaTrak monitor and tested her blood today for the first time. It was 442. I have an appointment with the vet tomorrow. My dog is weak, sleeps all the time and only wants to go outside to pee and is ready to come in. Not typical of her or her breed. What do I need to know in order to get the vet and my dog on the same page to get some treatment? Currently the only thing on order is cushings medications but no insulin.


If you want to follow my discussion about cushings I have a thread over on k9cushings.com > https://www.k9cushings.com/forum/sho...s-amp-Diabetes

[k9diabetes]

Re: Diabetic Australian Cattle Dog

She needs insulin so be firm on that with the vet. Has she been tested for ketoacidosis?

At 40 pounds, she could be started on maybe 7-8 units.

Ketoacidosis arises from high blood sugar and can be fatal so it's imperative to assess and treat her for that. The treatment protocol is found here:

https://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4124

Also, your vet may bring up insulin resistance related to Cushings. I've found it's quite rare and unlikely to be the case when blood sugar is this high.

https://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/sho...light=peterson

Difficulty of diagnosing Cushing's in an uncontrolled diabetic dog:
https://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7134

Please see the main website for information on canine diabetes, insulin, ketoacidosis, etc.

https://www.k9diabetes.com

[k9diabetes]

Re: Diabetic Australian Cattle Dog

Pancreatitis is another common problem with similar symptoms. There is a blood test for that. She should have, if not done already, a full blood panel.

[k9diabetes]

Re: Diabetic Australian Cattle Dog

To be honest, a rural veterinarian may not be capable of handling this. If the vet won't start insulin or run needed tests, she needs to go somewhere else.

[labblab]

Re: Diabetic Australian Cattle Dog

Hi!! I’m so glad to see you made it over here and I’m so relieved to know you’re receiving suggestions. You’re in excellent hands! As you can see, I’m a member here, as well. So I’ll keep track of everything you post here as well as on K9C.

Best of luck this morning with the vet,
Marianne

[Zoology1603]

Re: Diabetic Australian Cattle Dog

Thanks for the help!

I came home with 10ml Vetsulin today. She's supposed to get 19 units once daily. She got an injection there. They took her blood with an AlphaTrak, same one as mine, she read 380. I took it this morning and got 480. The vet said I may be putting too big of a drop of blood on the strip which can cause the meter to read higher.

I hope my meter isn't off. I did a a control test and got 108 and the test strips say it should read between 111-205 mg.

I tried all morning calling to get in to see another vet. They either didn't take new clients or couldn't handle my specific needs. I specifically asked about ketoacidosis.


The vet is still giving me Trilostane once it comes in. They are sticking by the LDDS test being positive.


The vet said if her reading goes down to around 200 she can have 10 units instead of 19.

[Zoology1603]

Re: Diabetic Australian Cattle Dog

Anyone have any recommendations on getting a dog to urinate in a specific spot? Last night was the first night she wasn't able to hold it in. Normally I wake up as I have bladder issues myself but I slept pretty heavily last night and didn't get to her in time. I have a 2' x 4' plant tray that I was thinking of putting down but I don't think she will know to use it. I'm just going to put it in the same spot she went last night and hope she uses it if she needs to.

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: Diabetic Australian Cattle Dog

hey Zoology

please doublecheck important

to be on the safe side keep testing make sure she doesnt drop too low okay

are you sure the 19 units is once day?

insulin is given twice a day with food.

10 units twice a day sounds more like it

[Zoology1603]

Re: Diabetic Australian Cattle Dog

Yep. Vet made a point to show that the syringe held 20 total units and she was to be given 19 units once a day before showing me how to do it. The vet was surprised I had my own pet meter and said I could keep track of her levels myself and drop her down to 10 units if I was able to get her down into the 200 range. Thanks for checking though. We may get a different prescription later on once she is eating normally again. Keep in mind this is a rural farm vet.

She has eaten a little more today, if she can keep it down; I'm hoping she passes some stool tomorrow (hasn't passed in 3 days) which will mean things are moving along again.


I just took a reading: 359.


I'm pretty nervous about giving her the shot in the morning. I watched a video on it but I can't seem to get the damn bubbles out.

[labblab]

Re: Diabetic Australian Cattle Dog

Anyone have any recommendations on getting a dog to urinate in a specific spot? Last night was the first night she wasn't able to hold it in. Normally I wake up as I have bladder issues myself but I slept pretty heavily last night and didn't get to her in time. I have a 2' x 4' plant tray that I was thinking of putting down but I don't think she will know to use it. I'm just going to put it in the same spot she went last night and hope she uses it if she needs to.

I defer 100% to the folks here re: the diabetic treatment issues, but here’s a thought re: setting up an indoor urination spot. You could try lining the tray with some puppy potty training pads, and then catching some of your girl’s urine outside (which you’ve said is easy for you), and then putting some down on the indoor pads. If she smells her own urine on the pads, that may encourage her to recognize that it’s an “OK” area for her to use to relieve herself again.

I’m struggling to get my own elderly Lab girl to realize it’s OK to relieve herself on some artificial grass mats that I’ve placed on my deck. She has severe mobility problems, and it’s getting too far for her to walk clear outside to the lawn every time she needs to go. The fake grass covers about a 6’ x 8’ area, so there’s enough room but I think she’s clueless that it’s there for her to use as a toilet. I’ve been trying to catch some of her own pee outside, but she squats so low now that it’s really hard. I’ll keep trying, though. FWIW, you can probably buy a smaller square of that artificial grass to put in your tray if you think she might accept that better than potty pads. Whatever you end up trying, good luck!

Also, one Cushing’s-related question for you. Do you have the actual numbers for her LDDS test? If so, I’d love to see them. As you already know, I’d totally be putting Cushing’s on the back burner for now. But I would like to see those test results if possible.

Marianne

[labblab]

Re: Diabetic Australian Cattle Do

Hi again. Normally I wouldn’t ever try to offer diabetes advise since it’s totally outside of my “lane,” but I’m feeling very worried about your vet’s experience with all this and so I decided to look up the labeling for Vetsulin myself. The dosing info for dogs really has me concerned:

The initial recommended vetsulin® dose is 0.5 IU insulin/kg body weight. Initially, this dose should be given once daily concurrently with, or right after a meal.
Twice daily therapy should be initiated if the duration of insulin is determined to be inadequate. If twice daily dosing is initiated, the two doses should be 25% less than the once daily dose required to attain an acceptable nadir.

https://www.vetsulin.com/pdfs/dogs/M...ide_Canine.pdf

Per these guidelines, starting out with once daily dosing sounds acceptable. But since your now 35 lb. dog weighs approximately 16 kg. (divide lbs. by 2.2 to arrive at kg.), the once daily dose shouldn’t exceed around 8 units, which is exactly what Natalie recommended in her first reply to you. I’m fearful that your vet didn’t notice that the dosing formula refers to kg. instead of pounds. Because the 19 units he recommended would directly correspond to 0.5 units per the 38 pounds that she last weighed at the vets.

Please double-check this before giving her more insulin, because I feel sure your vet must have miscalculated the dosage based on pounds rather than kilograms.

Marianne

[Zoology1603]

Re: Diabetic Australian Cattle Dog

I just gave her the first at home shot. I asked someone who is going to be in the area to swing by and pick up the LDDS test results and confirm the dosage. I'm only guessing that the high dose is temporary to bring her back around more quickly but I also went on the Merk website last night and calculated the dosage like you.

I forgot to take her reading this morning. I guess since it's supposed to be a fasting reading that it should be taken before the meal and insulin as I can adjust her dosage if I need to that way. I was nervous this morning so I wasn't really thinking.


Meal: 7:05am
Insulin: 7:40am
Reading: 8:39am (589)

[labblab]

Re: Diabetic Australian Cattle Dog

Congrats on handling that first injection this morning!! I woulda been a nervous wreck, too. For sure. Hopefully some of the diabetes crew will soon be by to let us both know whether bigger doses are common at the beginning. I’m definitely learning stuff right here alongside you ;-).

[Zoology1603]

Re: Diabetic Australian Cattle Dog

The vet said the dosage is correct and to take the glucose reading 4 hours after she eats. She just ate again so I won't be taking it for another 4 hours. She's not eaten in so long I'm not going to deny her food right now just to get a reading.

They do not have the LDDS test yet so I don't have a copy.


My sister had a diabetic dog and showed me how to do it last night which helped.

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: Diabetic Australian Cattle Dog

to be safe test after food. if bg is below 200, wait dont give insulin till bg is over 200.

it takes 1/2 hour for food to take effect. you can test then to follow the bg.
it takes 1 1/2 hours for insulin to meet up with the food. test then

if you miss fasting bg, test after food.

i wouldnt be giving trilostane till shes eating, and insulin is regulating somewhat.

although your sister has the same vet every dog is different.

i know your in a rural area but i would try a vet school and find a more experienced vet. i.m very concerned for dogs care right now.

when is your next schedule visit to the vet?

your doing great, keep testing, posting,

bubbles.
hold syringe up tap on sides until bubbles float to top. push them out with plunger, refill correct dose.