Border collie Jack passed away on February 28, 2022

[Patty]

Re: Jack: bad back and anxiety issues

Jack does have expensive taste in meds , so you're right. For that reason it probably won't work.

Good questions Natalie. I can't think of anything to add.

[k9diabetes]

Re: Jack: bad back and anxiety issues

I completely understand your resistance to steroids. IMHO the veterinary community uses them too freely. I said no I can't count how many times when Ali's allergies flared miserably, always looking for other avenues. The year she developed diabetes was when I said yes to them again in an effort to bring her immediate relief...

That sucks... but if Ali was going to wind up with diabetes because of the steroids, probably better later than earlier as long as the allergies could be kept reasonably well under control.

I share your questions as to whether the neurontin vs. steroid treatment would help. Seems to me he's recommending an experiment - try this, if it doesn't help then we try that, not really knowing the root of the problem.

I think he is recommending an experiment but the responsibility for the need to experiment comes back to us. Rest - much more restriction in his activities than we are currently doing - and Metacam as the anti-inflammatory worked great the first time. He still does not seem to see this as an urgent situation so would be okay with trying the medication and just see if it works. At worst, it doesn't and we move on to something else. And that may still be where we wind up, depending on the answers to my questions.

We have some concerns about the Gabapentin because we know people who are taking it and while they haven't had any life-threatening complications from it, they feel like everything in life is dulled, including their personalities. I doubt whether anyone knows whether it would have the same effect on Jack. (Maybe it could replace his Prozac...) And I still don't see how it might get to the root of the problem.

I'm kind of in the same place you were with the allergies vs. the steroids. How bad is the back pain / allergies? What will happen with the steroids?

I'm not anxious to wind up with a young diabetic dog who has to take prednisone to walk. Then we would have back problems and impossible to control blood sugar.

So a lot depends on the answers to my questions.

Natalie

[k9diabetes]

Re: Jack: bad back and anxiety issues

You know I have dealt with diabetes and also cushings with my dogs and I have a very healthy respect on the dangers but I take prednisone and have for a few years and it is the only thing that gets me through the day. It's a matter of weighing up the side effects against quality of life and keeping a check that it isn't causing more serious issues. Even knowing what I know about the drug I would consider giving it to a dog again after of course doing my research to know what the choices were.

Jenny

Thanks Jenny... I sure wish there was some way to know what would happen. My second worst nightmare scenario is that he becomes a diabetic AND needs the prednisone to avoid becoming paralyzed.

Natalie

[k9diabetes]

Re: Jack: bad back and anxiety issues

Pip at K9C who has severe pain issue due to really bad hips apparently responded really well to treatment with a TENS machine. Although I've found it excellent on myself I was a bit surprised to hear that a dog not only accepted the strange sensations but actually seemed to enjoy the sessions and want them to continue - presumably he was getting great relief.

Alison

I think that must be why the acupuncturist really wanted to do electro-acupuncture with Jack. She tried it the first time, though, and he was not liking it. His eyes dilated so wide I thought they were gonna pop. He wasn't too crazy about any of it but that especially.

http://www.spine-health.com/treatmen...imulators-tens

It's not at all clear to me how much pain he is in. I think the gait and the way his legs kind of pivot at times is primarily from lack of good communication over the spine. When the vet pressed on the spot where he has displayed significant pain in the past, Jack didn't respond with any sign of pain.

So my guess... and that's all it is... is that the Metacam is doing reasonably well at controlling the pain. But not at improving nerve function.

Natalie

[k9diabetes]

Re: Jack: bad back and anxiety issues

I am sorry to hear about Jack's back! Silkie had back surgery for herniated discs. He became paralyzed in just a couple of days. But that is ONLY TEMPORARY...surgery will fix that. It was horrible. He had surgery, and after rehab, and patience, he was walking again in a month. Now he is running and doing everything as usual, just no jumping up and down. I hope all is ok, and know, in the worse case senario, surgery is an option. We got through it! If you have questions, I am happy to answer. We have been through 2 major surgerys and now diabetes. (For anxiety, I took perscribed xanax, and it helped, for Jack too!!)

Silkigal

Thanks for this! A success story is always helpful. I am SO glad that Silkie recovered so well.

Natalie

[k9diabetes]

Re: Jack: bad back and anxiety issues

We had a really good, productive appointment yesterday and Jack was thrilled to wait in the car!

First thing is that I got the wrong impression about how much impairment over the spinal cord the neurologist thinks there is. In his report, he listed all of his reflexes responses as Normal.

He views the impairment as his lameness and twisting in his gait and apparent pain and exercise intolerance that we have observed. He cannot say whether these are from pain only or from weakness and lack of nerve conduction only or both. And we really can't say how much pain or weakness he is experiencing.

Maybe pain relief is all that is needed for Jack's gait to return to normal and for his exercise tolerance to go up. Gabapentin would be strictly pain relief.

We talked extensively about if/when to do an MRI. He agreed that you don't want to do one too early. He prefers to do an MRI or myelogram only when the other treatment options have been exhausted and you are forced to change the treatment approach to something more invasive. So all are agreed that it doesn't make sense to do an MRI now.

So we are starting him on Gabapentin - he got the first pill last night - and will see what it does for him.

The other useful thing I learned is that, according to the neurologist, about 55% of dogs will get better without any significant medical intervention. This could be flaring on its own and then could subside again even if we did nothing.

Tramadol and any other narcotic are questionable in Jack because of their potential interaction with his Prozac so they are not high on the list. As I understand it, no one has ever seen seratonin syndrome in dogs but they worry about it as it can occur in people when these two types of meds are combined. As the neurologist said, we don't want Jack to be the first documented case.

He also would be comfortable with Jack taking Metacam for the rest of his life if it works for him. With frequent monitoring of his blood work. And as long as he tolerates it well, which so far he does. He's been on it two months or so now steadily with no problems.

The MRI would be about $2,000 and the total of MRI/Surgery around $5,000. I was expecting the cost of the MRI to be about that much and was surprised the surgery wasn't so much more. I thought it would be $5,000 by itself. He does the MRIs at a human facility so he can use state of the art equipment and get the dog in and out as quickly as possible. He does the surgeries himself. Too bad he doesn't take care credit.

So for now, it's Gabapentin and crossed fingers for success.

I'm heading out here shortly to get him out of the house before it rains again. He went out Sunday to a nearby community college campus that's deserted on the weekend and he had such a good time. Loping along up ramps, looking in windows, rustling through the shrubs. It's a great place to take him out for a walk where he can just wander around and explore.

Natalie

[Patty]

Re: Jack: bad back and anxiety issues

Enjoy your time out! Sounds like a good visit. Really hoping the neurontin helps Natalie.
Patty

[buddingartist]

Re: Jack: bad back and anxiety issues

Better news that what you expected.

Enjoy your outing and stay dry (saw the floods etc in California)

Louise

[CarolW]

Re: Jack: bad back and anxiety issues

natalie - looiks reasonably promising, all things considered! I'll be watching to see how the Gabapentin goes!

Oh, and get some sleep; haha!

BIG hugs, licks and wags!

Tue, 21 Dec 2010 17:09:29 (PST)

[pgcor]

Re: Jack: bad back and anxiety issues

Glad to read this Natalie. Perhaps the medication will be effective and all will be well with Jack. Fingers crossed for you!

[MaryLea]

Re: Jack: bad back and anxiety issues

He also would be comfortable with Jack taking Metacam for the rest of his life if it works for him. With frequent monitoring of his blood work.
Natalie

Hope things work out well for you and Jack. I'm glad you plan to monitor his blood work. We feel one mistake we made was not getting at least a kidney/liver panel when Ruffles was first diagnosed. Of course, she was old and had other issues--Jack is young and doesn't have diabetes. Both of those factors are in his favor.

Best wishes,

Mary

[buddingartist]

Re: Jack the project!

Natalie, how is Jack doing lately? Any improvements in his condition?

Louise

[k9diabetes]

Re: Jack the project!

Hi Louise! Thanks for asking.

I've been trying to get around to composing an update for the neurologist and still haven't managed it! Here's my chance to update here and him! My work tends toward feast or famine and there's been a burst of activity this week after the holidays.

My general take on the Gabapentin is that if it's helping it's only a very small amount of pain relief.

Sometimes he has seemed more cheerful.

But the drug also has had a pretty big sedating effect. Which on Jack can, for us humans, look like a good thing! He displays it in kind of a sweet way... But - besides being wrong to control your dog's problem behavior by making him sleepy - the sedation makes it hard to tell how much the Gabapentin is helping him. Plus the weather and park closure have limited his exercise recently.

He still sometimes limps and his back right leg will roll. I took him for a very slow but longer than usual walk a couple of days ago. About 22 to 24 minutes, and he was limping and quite tired by the time we got back to the car.

The other thing I have noticed over weeks of wiping his feet through this rainy spell is that there is less resistance in his back right leg than in the left one. If I push up on it from the bottom, he doesn't resist much and it feels light when I pick it up. If that has changed at all, it is only a slight change.

So the Gaba is definitely no miracle cure and I do believe that he has some weakness from lack of communication over the spinal cord. But he's no worse either. It seems like the regular car ride and acupuncture sessions were hard on his back as he was much worse those weeks than he is now.

I'm tending toward it's not doing enough for him to justify having him on it but am considering tapering it off and see if a fresh look at him off of it will give me a clearer idea of what it does for him.

I can say that, other than making him somewhat sleepy (he's more than capable of rousing out of it to play and was hyper yesterday when I couldn't get him out of the house for even a drive), he has suffered no other side effects at all. So it has seemed to be very safe for him.

We are about to do a blood panel to check his kidney and liver values again. And I'm finally going to give in and let the techs trim his nails.

Natalie

[buddingartist]

Re: Jack the project!

Hi Natalie,

It almost looks like (if I am reading and comprehending right) that he is not in any significant pain, which I guess is good.

Also with all the rain that California has been getting, would humidity exarcerbate his condition?

Thank goodness he has someone as knowledgeable as you to care for him.

Come on Jack, give mommy a break.

PS: More work for you is good. Ah the joys of consulting work... earnings up and down... I sure don't miss those days

Louise

[Patty]

Re: Jack the project!

I'm glad he's not worse Natalie, but sorry it hasn't been a miracle drug for him.