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-   -   Newbie needing help (http://k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8228)

MomtoMax 08-20-2021 09:10 AM

Newbie needing help
Hello, and thank you in advance for letting me join this forum. My Name is Donna and my newly diagnosed dog is an 11 year old PWC (Pembroke Welsh Corgi), Max. I rescued him 10 years ago and until now, he has been a typical (quirky), healthy, happy boy. He goes for a mile walk every day (weather dependent as I live in New England).
Last Spring, during a routine senior panel blood draw, the vet told me his glucose was a bit high (not alarming and probably due to stress from all the Covid protocols in place). At her request, I brought her a urine sample, to which she said there is no way this dog is diabetic. Then retested his glucose in about a month with no change.
Fast forward to about a month ago, he started drinking tons of water and peeing constantly. I was sure he had Cushing’s disease (I’ve had two Cushing’s dogs before), so made a vet appointment. She agreed with me, but before we went down that road, she took a glucose reading and it was 394. She also tested his urine at that time and he does not have ketoacidosis. He has also never had Pancreatitis. So he’s been on Vetsulin for 2 weeks now. We started at 3 units, went to 4 after a week, and as of this morning, we’re doing 5. In the last two weeks, his readings have never gone below 300 and are typically in the 400s. At 3 units, he was a frequent flier in the over 500 range. I have a Freestyle Libre sensor on him and it doesn’t go above 500. He weighs 29 pounds. He is fed ½ cup of food twice a day at 5:30 AM and 5:30 PM, adding about a tablespoon of shredded zucchini each time along with his insulin.
I changed his food from Fromm Senior to Acana Heritage two weeks ago. I read it was better for diabetes and it’s what I’m currently feeding my GSD, so an easy switch. I did look up some foods (I’m not a fan of the garbage they put in prescription diets, but I do understand they have their place and can be life saving). I have also found a food called, Ketona for diabetic dogs, but holy cow, at $40 for 4.5 pounds of food, I can cook cheaper than that for him!
I have tons of questions, but I guess first and foremost are these: Can a dog be insulin resistant? How much is too much insulin? How much can food play into this and can that be the reason his numbers are so high?

Riliey and Mo 08-21-2021 01:19 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
hello Donna and Max

yes food and amount are equally important as insulin.

too much insulin will cause hypoglycemia

yes dogs can be insulin resistant. i havent seen any.

just to mentiin the sensors libres are Not reliable for diabetic dog curves or any data as they read too high and too.low there not safe. doing home testing with a handheld glucometer like the Alphatrack is recommended.
doing home testing, weekly curves, raising and lowering insulin according to the curves lowest number will provide alot of data.. along with a good quality low fat food fed by the recommended mfg feed guide amount.

you.ll find 5 units closer to regulation for 29 lbs. a starting dose for a 29 lb dog is

.25 x 29 equals 7.25.

my dog was 22 lbs on 5 1/2 units and 1/2 cup of dry food twice a day.

first thing to check is the feed guide for a 29 lb dog. 1/2 cup may not be enough. food might not meet up with the 5 units.

you need to test after eating inject only if hes over 200 to avoid a hypo.

MomtoMax 08-21-2021 02:02 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
Thank you for the welcome and thanks for the information on the Alphatek! I’ll order one! Our vet put the Libre on Max and gave me a script for 4 more, which of course I purchased already…
Also, thank you for the reassurance on the 5 units of Vetsulin. I panicked after upping his units so fast and then having the vet say on Thursday if his numbers don’t improve next week, we have to have a different conversation…Those words shocked me!
I will check the Acana bag for his weight. As a typical Corgi, Max gains weight on air, so have to be very careful about how many calories he gets…

Riliey and Mo 08-21-2021 02:11 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
good your getting the alphatrack. turn off the sound on it. i used just the lancet not the device as its easier

i.ve seen tooo many vets vets rely on just the sensor libre. its not a blood meter its a sensor.

your okay andon the right track. Max will be okay

MomtoMax 08-21-2021 02:51 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
I checked the back of the bag and there's no feeding guidelines? I increased his food to 2/3 of a cup. My 80 pound GSD gets 1.5 cups of this 2 times a day and is at a very healthy weight.

Hope this helps Max!


Riliey and Mo 08-21-2021 08:06 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
found this chart to compare

Weight of Dog Weight of Dog Cups of Food per Day* Grams of Food per Day
5 - 15 lbs 2.3 - 6.8 kg 1/2 to 1 1/8 50 to 112.50
15 - 30 lbs 6.8 - 13.6 kg 1 1/8 to 1 7/8 112.50 to 187.50

30 - 50 lbs 13.6 - 22.7 kg 1 7/8 to 2 2/3 187.50 to 266

2/3 x 2= 1 1/3 close enough to 1 7/8

50 - 70 lbs 22.7 - 31.8 kg 2 2/3 to 3 1/2 266 to 350
70 - 90 lbs 31.8 - 40.8 kg 3 1/2 to 4 1/8 350 to 412.50

MomtoMax 08-22-2021 03:39 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
While I now understand that the Libre isn’t an accurate curve, this is what he presented today on it:
5:00 AM – 415
5:30 – breakfast and insulin 415
6:30 – 423
7:30 – 391
8:30 – 378
9:30 – 426
10:30 – 418
11:30 – 454
12:30 – 424
12:30 – 454
2:30 – 355
3:30 – 356
4:30 – 367
5:30 – dinner and insulin
6:30 399
My vet is using these numbers to read curves.
Thanks for your help!

jesse girl 08-22-2021 07:14 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
curve is ok and stable and gives the opportunity to raise the dose safely

MomtoMax 08-23-2021 08:04 AM

Re: Newbie needing help
The stupid Libre sensor fell off this morning (after only 5 days) and my Alphatrack reader and strips don’t come in until Thursday… I feel like I’m in the dark! And to make matters worse, I’m going away for the weekend to the beach on a planned min-vacation with a dear friend. My husband will be caring for Max here at home, but I’ll still worry – he doesn’t so someone here has too! LOL I’d cancel, but my friend just lost her 5 year old dog after a 5 day hospital stay with a blood transfusion every day to Lymphoma. After that stressful event, I feel like she really needs it, so will not cancel.
Bottom line, this means I will not be able to do a curve until next Tuesday, so will leave him at 5 units until then. I just pray he does ok…

Riliey and Mo 08-23-2021 09:45 AM

Re: Newbie needing help
i used the human One Touch ultra glucose meter as a back up. its reliable. just need lancets and strips

its available in pharmacies

MomtoMax 08-24-2021 04:47 PM

Re: Newbie needing help

I just found out MY Alphatrack will not be delivered until Friday, and I'll be on my beach weekend. Do you know how much the One Touch costs along with strips?


Riliey and Mo 08-24-2021 05:49 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
i paid about $100 back in 2012. call your local pharmacy.

i think theres meters here. ask around. maybe Natalie has one to overnight ship to you.

i think he,ll be okay for 6 more days!

MomtoMax 08-25-2021 07:37 AM

Re: Newbie needing help
Thanks! I think I'm just going to wait until Monday. I doubt my husband would be willing to learn his first curve without me being there anyway...

MomtoMax 08-25-2021 12:58 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
Some good news! My Alphatrack will be coming in tomorrow, so I will be able to get some readings before I leave for the beach on Friday! Not a curve, but he hasn't been read since since Tuesday, so it'll give me a bit more piece of mind!


MomtoMax 08-26-2021 02:29 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
I've hit a roadblock with the AlphaTrack. We've stabbed him at least 20 times today, and I keep getting an Er1. He is no where near Hypo based on his behavior! A couple of times he didn't bleed much, but a few times he most certainly did! Do you think it could be the meter has a bad board? I'll try again tomorrow, but I'm seriously thinking this is a bad meter...

Donna and poor pin-cushion, Max (who is so damn good about it, it makes me cry...)

Riliey and Mo 08-26-2021 05:21 PM

Re: Newbie needing help

thats a link to instructions just to check.

did you code the meter same as code on the test strips? think i used 35 and 36

oh Max what a trooper. it could be a dud meter.

also check the customer reviews where you bought it.Amazon, ask a question on amazon?
phone mfg of the alphatrack.

i turned the meter on , then took out a strip put it i the meter, then took the lancet poked his innerlip, then put the test strip into the blood droplet.

i.ll keep lookingfor an answer.

Riliey and Mo 08-26-2021 05:58 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
okay this might work for error codes alphatrack

take out the battery then put itback in

replace the battery .. its a Cr2032.

some meters sold are old and might this.

MomtoMax 08-31-2021 09:30 AM

Re: Newbie needing help
So I am back from my long weekend and my husband could not get a reading from the Alphatrack over the weekend. I think I’m going to send it back for a replacement… We put a Libre sensor on him and it’s been reading in the high 400’s. I called the vet (the one who diagnosed him is out due to complications from pregnancy), so I talked to a new vet about raising his Vetsulin to 6 units instead of 5, but she didn’t want to do that yet. She asked me all the standard questions: Did I refrigerate it, yes. Am I feeding first with insulin right after, yes. Am I rolling it, yes. How are you rolling it, I described how Dr. G showed us placing the bottle between our hands, top to bottom and rolling. She said, oh no, that’s not how you do it. You must roll it in your hands with the bottle on its side. So her answer was not to increase the insulin, but go get a new bottle, which my husband is doing now, and to only administer after rolling sideways. Does this make sense, as it does not to me???
Thank you for any help.

Riliey and Mo 08-31-2021 12:57 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
i.m assuming you took out the battery and put it back or replaced it

after all that bottle bs did anyone ask you to bring him in to be tested?

MomtoMax 08-31-2021 01:10 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
I did take out the battery and put it back in. I did not replace it...

Nope, she did not mention re-testing, just wanted to sell me a new bottle I guess...

I'll give her the benefit of doubt and give him his evening insulin from the new bottle and will send her a curve tomorrow, but I think it's going to make zero difference, to be honest...


MomtoMax 08-31-2021 03:14 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
I fed Max about an hour ago and he was Hi (over 500). I just checked it again and it's still Hi. I've got a feeling that's why the AlphaTrack isn't working as the Er1 means it's over 500... Yep, I used the new bottle and rolled it per her instructions. Will continue with this curve from the Libre, send it to Dr. P tomorrow and pray she lets me up his insulin...

Riliey and Mo 08-31-2021 03:45 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
it would be a good idea to get some urine test strips. dip it in his urine. it.ll at least show if he has ketones. sensors dont read properly in lower and higher numbers. his could be happening. i.d be using a hand held meter as soon as possible

MomtoMax 08-31-2021 04:14 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
I'll do that, but keep in mind this is the vet that charged me $65 to tell me there was no way this dog is diabetic, this spring upon a visual. As of August 8, he didn't have ketoacidosis.


MomtoMax 08-31-2021 05:11 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
Ok, venting here, but I've had two Cushing's dogs, an EPI dog and an Addisonian dog - I know the endocrine system pretty well! She treated me like a simpleton... I didn't much like that... He's down to 467 2.5 hours after feeing and insulin. I'd LOVE to find a new vet, but that isn't an option as the pandemic has created a lack of them...

MomtoMax 08-31-2021 05:41 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
I've been to this practice for over 40 years. All the vets there that I've trusted and loved are retired...
This new wave of vets after the pandemic, when everyone adopted a dog, is insane!
We spent over 6 hours at an emergency vet just to check my GSD in...
And another 6 hours the next day because my vet called in sick..
Folks, for those of you who have children, veterinary medicine is the way to go!!! I'm pushing it on my grandkids! LOL


MomtoMax 09-01-2021 02:19 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
I did a curve today and as I expected, zero difference in numbers on the new bottle of insulin...


jesse girl 09-01-2021 08:55 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
You could make the switch to nph insulin and usually you can buy it from walmart for about $25 without a prescription with syringes and go it alone without a vets supervision which is what I did with my Jesse after a couple weeks . I had come to the conclusion a general approach to k9 diabetes doesnt work that well and especially for challenging ones like my jesse was.

Its really not that complicated as long as you don't react to single numbers and do your weekly curves and adjust the dose on the lowest number within that curve

MomtoMax 09-02-2021 11:47 AM

Re: Newbie needing help
The vet finally called me back and agreed to let me up his Vetsulin to 6 units. We agreed to check back on Tuesday and if the numbers haven't gone down, we will do an LDDST next week. I'll keep you posted.


MomtoMax 09-04-2021 02:44 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
I don't know what happened to my last post, but am reposting. For the first time since early August, Max went below 200 at 9:00 AM. He's since been over 500 as it was short lived for maybe an hour and a half...
He's fed at 5:30 AM followed by 6 units of vetsuline. By 9:00 AM he was in the hight 400's. What does this mean?

Riliey and Mo 09-04-2021 03:49 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
usually we ask people to retest the low number to be accuratebut you cant do that because your using a sensor.

now do you see their not accurate

this means you need to at least double check with a hand held glucose meter.

it also means he might be getting too much food

also cushings is a possibility

you can pick one up at the pharmacy, some lancets and strips. the One touch is a good one.

MomtoMax 09-04-2021 03:58 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
Cushing's is a discussion I plan on having with the vet on Tuesday...

MomtoMax 09-05-2021 03:10 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
I am going to talk to our vet on Tuesday as I think Cushings is a good possibility.

jesse girl 09-06-2021 08:45 AM

Re: Newbie needing help
Might want to talk to our sister site K9 cushings as they are very helpful with that matter.

MomtoMax 09-06-2021 09:52 AM

Re: Newbie needing help
That low number was short lived... Yesterday and today he's all over the place never really going below 300 and in the upper 400's and 500 most of the time. I'm going to have a chat with the vet about testing for Cushing's tomorrow.


Judi 09-07-2021 12:57 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
let us know what you find out. dealing with Cushings AND diabetes is no fun but it looks like you can handle it and at least you will know.


MomtoMax 09-07-2021 03:16 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
Thank you, I will!
I called the vet at 8:00 this morning, was told by the office manager there that I've know for 40 years, I would get a call back from the vet and could I send yesterday's curve, which I did by 8:15, but I've heard crickets... They used to be open from 8-9, but now they are strictly 8-5, with NO exceptions...
It's pretty sad they sold to corporate, as so many local vets did when they retired during the pandemic... I get it, but what the heck does that mean for our furry family members????


MomtoMax 09-08-2021 03:06 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
I have an appointment to have Max tested for Cushing's next Thursday. Will let you know the results.

MomtoMax 09-14-2021 02:54 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
Hello again,
I think I’m getting an idea of what’s happening, on 6 units, but not sure why…
This is Max’s curve from today:
5:00 – 409
5:15 – breakfast and insulin
6:00 – 439
7:00 – 316
8:00 – 283
9:00 – walk
10:00 – 182
12:00 – 197
1:00 – 184
2:00 – 185
3:00 – 248
4:00 – 343
5:00 – 372
5:15 – Dinner and insulin
5:30 – 413
6:00 - 433
My vet has pretty much told me he’s at his limit for a 29 pound dog, so I may have to fly under the radar on my own…
He’s also getting an LDDST test on Thursday to check for Cushing’s.
Thanks for any advice!
Donna and Max the Corgi being feed ¾ cup of Acana Heritage 2xs a day – 12 hours apart

MomtoMax 09-16-2021 06:39 AM

Re: Newbie needing help
So Max is at the vet for the day as they are doing a LDDST on him. His numbers seem to be better on his 6 units of Vetsulin as they are averaging in the 200s rather than the 400s. I know, higher than they should be, but still and improvement… That’s good because he gets so stressed out while there.
He’s also lost 2 pounds as of this morning; going from 29 to 27, but that could be due to the lack of snacks during the day… No dog I’ve ever had can beg better than a Corgi! Their eyes bore right thru you! Unlike my Shepherd’s - they just drool…
I’ll get the results tomorrow most likely and I’ll post them here.

MomtoMax 09-17-2021 12:00 PM

Re: Newbie needing help
Negative for Cushing's. He's insulin resistant. We're going up to 7 units tomorrow...

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