question on the WD food

[sharp]

Hello all,

I take my Tucker tomorrow morning for his first blood glucose curve, even though he was diagnosed 4 months ago.

There is a previous thread on why I am not having success doing the curve at home. It is just not worth the battle. He is 13 years old and I am not willing right now to continue to hold him and fight him while he is crying, fighting and biting. It took two of us to get three home BG samples...and even then we barely accomplished it. So right now my expensive Alpha Track and all supplies are sitting on the counter.

Anyway my question is on the WD dogfood the pet put him on when he was diagnosed.

I am noticing the first ingredient is corn?? Can that be good for his blood sugar? (we are still having trouble controlling it)

I researched corn and glycemic on the internet and more than one site said that corn will raise their glycemic index quite a bit more than oats for example.

There is a website called the Glycemic Research Institute (anyone ever heard of that?) that talks about dogfoods with low glycemic indexes and that website said corn is bad...a no no.

Up until this switch I have avoided anything with corn in it for both of my dogs entire life. I only bought the premium brands where the first ingredients were meat for example.

Do you think I should try to switch back?

If so, what would you all recommend? I am not unwilling to cook something to add to a meal but primarily I am looking for advice on kibble with canned mixed in. (Right now I mix in Evo or Wellness the 95%...either venison, chicken or salmon)

If I do make a change should I do it slowly?

I really want to discuss this with the vet tomorrow when I pick him up after the curve.

Diane

[Judi]

Re: question on the WD food

Hi Diane: I hope it goes well at the vet tomorrow. As you know, food is a touchy subject. A lot of people have very strong opinions.

I researched and freaked out about all the horrible reviews and the corn right away too. At the time we had an appointment with my dog's eye doctor who has a lot of diabetic patients due to the cataracts. She said that in her opinion the corn wasn't a big deal and the WD or the Purina OM have been proven to help a lot of dogs with regulation. She prefers the OM just because more dogs are willing to eat it. I wasn't buying any food from her, she and her tech just gave me their opinion and it helped allay my concerns.

I initially got samples of all kinds of grain free foods and brought the cans to my vet for his opinion. In most cases he thought the fat content was too high and the carbs were too low.

At the end of the day, and because for the most part Jenny has been willing to eat it, we've been on the OM or WD but are now using "topper" foods as she is getting older and pickier and I'm more laid back.

All of my vets agree that the biggest deal with a diabetic dog is getting them to eat. So if you are willing to adjust the insulin for a different food and it is really bugging you, I don't see the harm.

I know a lot of people have had really good luck with Honest Kitchen, especially for dogs with allergies. My non-diabetic dog would probably do better on that but I haven't made the move yet. Let us know how it goes and what your vet says! Judi

[k9diabetes]

Re: question on the WD food

I just have a moment, but it's important to note that the corn in the prescription diet is a protein source, largely as corn gluten. And I have seen many many dogs do very very well on the corn-based prescription diets.

The pet food companies and raters tend to make a big deal about the glycemic index, but it's not all that applicable to dogs. In fact, I see a lot of diabetic dogs who not only do well with carbs in their diet but actually NEED carbs to achieve good flat level blood sugar because they get pretty fast action from the insulin.

You have to keep in mind that dogs are essentially Type 1 insulin dependent diabetics, not Type 2s where one is often trying to help control blood sugar through diet. Plus dogs use a single insulin rather than a long acting basal insulin and a short-acting insulin strictly for meals as humans usually do.

Your ability to control your dog's blood sugar is strictly a matter of how well the insulin from the injection and the food from the diet are matched.

If your dog doesn't have a big spike in blood sugar after eating - and most dogs don't - or a sharp drop in blood sugar late in the afternoon, there aren't too many quickly digestible carbs in the diet.

Natalie

[sharp]

Re: question on the WD food

thanks Natalie.

He did have a BIG spike in his sugar about an hour after feeding...up to 467. He is on a big dose of insulin for a little dog. Two hours later it had dropped to 206.

Guess I am just concerned and want to switch him to something else.

I did do Honest Kitchen years ago. But the dogs weren't keen on the taste.

I'm looking for suggestions on the foods with meat as the prevalent ingredient.

Thanks!

[amydunn19]

Re: question on the WD food

My feeling about w/d was that my life would have been so much easier if Maggie would have eaten it, but she flat out refused it and the DCO and Royal Canin diabetic prescription foods. The picky thing also refused Orijen and Wellness, too so she didn't just discriminate against the rx diets. She ate and liked Blue Buffalo Weight Management but she continued to have pancreatitis flare ups and hideous gas, bloating, and diarrhea. On a whim, I tried Nutrisca and it has been a good food because she eats it and her digestion is good with it.

With that said, Her low glycemic food has to have some propping up for diabetes and I have to monitor her during the day and feed her an extra meal to keep her blood sugar steady. Ideally, i would like to have her on a food with a little more carb but her digestive system will not tolerate it. Sometimes we make choices that address other things besides diabetes but make it work. Also, the premium foods with the super high protein and fats may not go well with insulin.

I hate you can't test him at home but if it causes so much angst for him, I don't know how reliable your tests would be - anxiety can skew the results. Perhaps one day you will be able to bribe him into it.

[sharp]

Re: question on the WD food

Thanks Amy

Im not holding out a lot of hope on being able to do the home testing. He tolerated it barely, once.
Then it went downhill from there.
I thought I got him ready with holding the lancet device with no needle all over the spots recommended to test and clicking it, then rewarding with cooked chicken. I did that for a day before I used it with the needle.

And I even tried it without the lancet device and did it by hand, but he still acted like we were killing him.

We bribed with bits of chicken and even had my daughter feed him tiny bits while I was trying to test...it didn't work.

He is a good tolerant dog in being handled , so I am surprised.

I have always done his grooming, can strip his coat, use scissors and I even dremmel his nails instead of cutting them.

So I'm kinda out of ideas on that for now. Just need to get the curve done.

[parje1]

Re: question on the WD food

I'm pretty new to this and trying to figure out diet also. I have the same feelings that you do about the Hill's food but I think it's mostly that my other dogs have all had allergies.

I haven't tried the Royal Canin diabetic food yet but it's the one I will try first, if I need to go to a prescription diet. It has ingredients that are more similar to what I am used to feeding my dogs. Just a thought.

I'm torn on the whole fiber thing right now as I have a dog that needs to gain weight and just wants to eat meat. I'm worried she isn't getting enough carbs and that more fiber will cause her to lose more weight.

Good luck and keep us posted on what works.

[k9diabetes]

Re: question on the WD food

Fiber won't cause weight loss as long as she's getting enough calories.

Our dog started out on WD (we later switched to other things) and at first we weren't feeding him enough of it for him to gain weight - he was maintaining but not gaining. With the low-fat high-fiber food, you do have to feed more to get the same number of calories.

In fact, the calorie count of various foods can be very different even without the addition of fiber. It's always good, when changing foods, to make the calories equivalent (to maintain weight).

So we upped the quantity about 20-25%, kept it there until he gained enough weight, and then cut back to the maintenance calorie amount.

Naturally, if you can't get a dog to eat enough of any food to get enough calories, then weight loss will be a problem.

I don't advocate any food in particular - I've seen all of them work for some dogs and not work so well for others.

Many times with a mainly meat diet, a diabetic dog will actually require some carbohydrates to get well-regulated blood sugar. And if you look at grains in general, you will see one dog get a slow even release of glucose from oatmeal while another dog will have blood sugar through the roof with just a little bit of the same oatmeal. Literally, every dog is different.

It's just that the ideas that the corn in the prescription diet is a problem for diabetic dogs' blood sugar and even that it is a "carb" aren't accurate. The whole concept of a Type 2 human diabetes approach doesn't apply.

Natalie

[Monsters Momma]

Re: question on the WD food

Hi there Diane!

Hope the curve goes well today! You didn't say where you were trying to test him. It could be the spot, or just him feeling your anxiety about it too. Did the vet or vet tech try to help you with this? Sometimes our pups just won't cooperate with us.

On the food issue, so many of us feed our pups different foods. 'If you can get yours to eat it, feed it' seems to be the mantra! Vinny was on a prescription diet at first, but continued to lose weight no matter how much we fed him...and there's only so much I wanted to feed him! So we switched. Now he is eating BBW Salmon and gaining a bit of weight back.

Good luck with everything! Be sure to share Tucker's numbers with us!
Mel

[sharp]

Re: question on the WD food

Thanks Monstermomma.

I tried the carpal pad and a foot pad.

I took him to the vet early this morning with his insulin and his food for the day.

It took THREE vet techs holding him and a muzzle to draw a tiny bit of blood from his back leg to run the test. Seriously?? I said to them, does he always do this and they said yep. Poor guy, doing this every two hours today? And God bless those people.

I told them, well I guess its not just me that he freaks out on.

His sugar was 167 but he hadn't eaten since 5;30 last night and the test was done about 7:15 am.

I am anxious to see what the curve looks like.

As far as the w/d...I am just really more comfortable feeding something where the top ingredients are meat. And w/d only has 15% protein. AAFCO recommends a minimum of 18% to meet their standards.

Like I said he spiked to 467 an hour after I fed him his w/d the other night. (the evening I fought him to get a couple of readings)

I am not a wholistic fanatic. But I do think dogs like meat!

I know these dogs are type 1 and not type 2. My daughters best friend is type 1 diabetic so we are very familiar with testing and insulin.

However even for her, if she eats something high carb, she has to adjust her bolus dose on her pump to adjust for that spike she would see with a high carb meal. And since we can't do that with a dog...adjust throughout the day...to me it just makes sense to find something that might not give him such a high spike.

Right now I am leaning towards switching to Blue Buffalo Wilderness low fat.

And supplementing the fiber with some of the suggestions I have found on the board.

I will keep you all posted.

[amydunn19]

Re: question on the WD food

I think you need to feed whatever you feel comfortable feeding. But, for the sake of others who are feeding and getting good results with w/d and have gotten good results, maybe the merits or shortcomings of any food would be better left alone. We are certain of one thing on this forum - diabetic dogs do well on a variety of different diets.

[sharp]

Re: question on the WD food

Fair enough Amy. I never gave this a thought until I saw him spike so high after his feeding. Maybe its just my doggy. I just want to explore options.

[amydunn19]

Re: question on the WD food

It is really very individual to the dog. I have tried foods with Maggie or snacks that others have used here with success and she would go sky high. You eventually find your way and it may take some adjusting but you will get there. Another thing I have discovered is that there are few absolutes with this disease. Of course, they can't have the no-brainer things like sugary foods, but some of the conditions and other diseases that some of our dogs have make choosing food very tough and there are those who are picky and won't eat anything. You have to learn what will work for your dog and that is a process.

[momofdecker]

Re: question on the WD food

A little late to this party - but wanted to share what a wise person once said to me regarding my non diabetic boy. For 10 years he ate Beneful dog food. I really didn't know anything about dog food ratings at the time.

For a year he was switched to Wellness Core. Then one day he stopped eating. He refused food a second day. He's sensitive to food changes - so I went out and bought the beneful and he ate it right up. I figured the high quality stuff was not doing him any good if he was not eating it.

I've struggled with myself feeling that I should be trying to re-introduce him to a better quality food. But a wise person told me that sometimes it's ok to give ourselves permission to feed beneful. If that's what's working - why not? So I stepped back and looked at what I know. He likes it. He eats it. He's nearly 13 and at face value he's a healthy dog.

Not really diabetic related at all - but just trying to reinforce that sometimes in a world that is already full of complications - keeping things simplistic, as long as it's working, is ok to do.

Wishing you the best in your new journey!

[k9diabetes]

Re: question on the WD food

Our 17.5-year-old cat eats nothing but meat baby food. Have had long talks with a couple of vets in the practice about how it's not the ideal diet for her. Agreed, but...

- It's the only thing she will eat every day heartily
- It's the only thing that doesn't blow up her colon
- She refuses to eat any of the diets that are ideal for her
- When she does eat a little of the foods that are ideal, her colon explodes...
- She looks better than she has in a couple of years and she's happy

So baby food it is. Especially at her age and with her particular problems... the colon blowing up is definitely something to avoid, if you know what I mean!

Natalie