Max the Westie

[wehrto]

First of all, thank you so much for this forum, I can spend hours reading and most of all learning so much about this disease. This site is truly a blessing.

My 11 year old Westie was diagnosed in April and due to the fact that my vet was only running a 4 number curve (I asked and this is their normal procedure as they feel this is enough to substantiate insulin changes) I have chosen to run my own curves at home.

I use an AlphaTrak2 and have performed 4 curves to date and beginning the 5th today. The rise in numbers is a concern, to the fact I believed it was the new bottle of Novolin N I started?

The first curve I did at home on 5/25 seemed rather decent with 3/8 c Orijen Senior, 3/8 c Purina DCO and 1 tsp each of chicken baby food & "Just Green Beans" baby food (otherwise he will not eat food) with 7 units of Novolin N.
6:30am 423 fed
8:30am 285
10:30am 272
12:30pm 135
2:30pm 165
4:30pm 160
6:30pm 350 fed
sorry I stopped at this point

I continued to spot check before each meal during the week with the am numbers averaging between mid 300's to low 400's. The pm numbers continued to be lower, mid 100's to 200. The vet felt this was too low for the pm numbers so lowered insulin to 6 units. Two weeks later and after lowering the amount of Orijen to 1/4c and DCO to 2/3 c, same amount of baby food, 6 units Novolin, the second curve was
6:30am 469 ate
8:30am 362
10:30am 200
12:30pm 328
2:30pm 345
4:30pm 506
6:30pm 446 ate
8:30pm 484
10:30pm 443

I had tweaked his food a bit and the vet had me change to 6 1/2 units after my third curve did not produce numbers under 236. I also tweaked the food just a bit to include more Purina DCO than Orijen. One week later the curve produced higher numbers, 300-487 with the 10pm number 585!

One week later, and reducing the Orijen to 1/4 c the numbers were in the same range with the post meal numbers rising, not falling, more so with the pm #'s. The units were then changed to 7, now 10 days later the curve I have started today - 411, ate, 430, 500, 413. Much higher than any of the curves at prior lower units.

He is always higher after eating in the evening and before meals in the morning -300-400's, I have not done an overnight curve.

My vet was not keen on my giving Max anything other than prescription kibble, she even wanted me to stop the teaspoon of baby food. He started on Hill's WD and then refused to eat. I read a few folks give baby food and decided to try it and change to DCO with the Orijen, low-glycemic (Senior) food. He's good with this mixture, except some mornings is not real interested in being rousted from bed to eat and has to be coaxed. No other treats except for green beans before bed. However during the work week I give a small piece of dried lamb lung in a Kong when he goes in his kennel. These were the days his glucose levels were below 200 before his evening meal?

Could my problem be with the small change in food, insulin unit change or type of insulin. My vet is not very helpful and I do not know where to turn. They don't even have anyone that run their own curves at home. Am I overthinking, do I need to get him in to the vet to check for some type of infection. He was tested in April for this along with Cushings.

Any direction would be much appreciated.

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: Help-2 months in-curve numbers rising?

Hi and welcome glad u found us

how much does he weigh?

adding the baby food and lamb lung might raise blood sugar so i would stop those
the may 25th curve looked good without the baby food, lamb lung, introduce back the 3/8 cup of dco and orijen.

Depending on how much he weighs the 6 1/2 units should work with the above

i give Riliey chopped up cold green beans midway at the 6 hour mark.

consistency keeping everything the same for 7 days.



mo

[jesse girl]

Re: Help-2 months in-curve numbers rising?

hi an welcome. the blood sugar is not very stable with 300 points or more from low to high .

whats problematic is that early drop. you had actually 2 periods of dropping blood sugar in that first curve.

its hard to tell what an appropriate dose should be with large swings in blood sugar . another factor is possibly not eating that well in the morning . also maybe the constant tweaking of food can have an affect on stability but understand trying to get your pup to eat .

the 7 units maybe the limit as far as dosing with that 135 . we base dose adjustments on the lowest number in a curve .

you would like to see that early drop stabilized , flatten out and slowed down a bit . what your ultimate goal is to see blood sugar rise and fall slowly but sometimes that is easier said than done . i believe a 100 points or lower from low to high is very stable blood sugar in a dog with some doing perfectly fine with as much as 200 points.

its possible the dose is to much and the reduction was not enough . what you would like is to have a dose where the numbers become stable especially early on and let the dose settle for a week. now they maybe more elevated than what you would like . this can be difficult to do because there is no gauntness for success but you will know for sure that you are not going in the wrong direction . a clue to an overdose situation is big swings in blood sugar .

now the other possibility is a food imbalance with insulin . so what you would like is to find something that is digested more quickly to supply sugar to that strong action of insulin early . that can be a slow process because changing food is like changing the dose of insulin takes time to settle and it has to agree with your pups gut .

so you want to focus on whats problematic in the curve which you do know it is consistent . we had the same problem with jesse . i thought it would be easy to solve but took a few different techniques to solve which left us a bit different from the normal routine which was fine because it is consistent with good results and we can work it into our life style .

we all start with the 12 /12 routine run curves see whats problematic and work on that one change at a time till it can be solved . the good thing most dogs attain adequate control of blood sugar for the rest of there lives and that can be with a normal life span with this routine . you do not need perfect regulation to attain that. sometimes it takes a couple months and some a year which is what we ended up for jesse but we needed a bit better control for her with her other challenges and to this day its not cruise control .

[wehrto]

Re: Help-2 months in-curve numbers rising?

Thank you for the quick response, it is greatly appreciated.

Max weighs 24 pounds and has held this weight steady throughout his years.

So my first plan should be to reduce the insulin to 6 1/2 units and keep the food 3/8 and 3/8, be patient and wait out two weeks to try another curve? Or do I need to find a different food at the 7 units? I guess I am too impatient with my tweaking of his food. I will try to be more patient. However I feel I will have a difficult time getting him to eat without the teaspoon of chicken baby food. I believe it is the smell that is most enticing to him. Any other suggestions? Green beans are his after injection treat.

As far as the lamb lung, I am confused as the fact that his blood sugar was always the lowest at the pm feeding on the days he was given this tidbit.

Thanks again

[jesse girl]

Re: Help-2 months in-curve numbers rising?

well certain foods can have amazing affects on blood sugar. if it is a positive affect i would stick with it . some have added black beans lentlis and millet .

you have to be patient and consistent . making one change at a time and giving it time to settle usually 5 days would be the minimum. some dogs take as much as 2 weeks to get a true response and thats what most vets follow.

[Yulismum]

Re: Help-2 months in-curve numbers rising?

I can't help you with US dog food or insulin as I am in the UK.

What you do need is patience. Whilst your dog is being stabilised there should be no treats whatsoever. Lamb is very fatty, not a good thing.

Once you have decided what you are going to feed him, and any changes should be done in tiny amounts over days, you need to stick to it. The more you tweak this and tweak that, the less you will understand what is going on.

I am sorry if I sound unsympathetic, that is not my intention. Honestly, I went through all the angst that you are going through when Yuli was diagnosed.

As for the baby food. Research all the ingredients on the bottle. Sometimes they contain sugar or glucose under a different name.

Keep a diary and write down everything that you do. Be obsessive! I mean everything. What time he is fed, and what you feed him. What time he gets his shot. Does he throw up, what time you go for a walk and where you go and for how long. Sometimes exercise can make the numbers go up, sometimes down. Exercise is a really important part of your dogs treatment.

Yuli used to have homecooked meals. They consisted of turkey, broccolli, oats and some other stuff. I wasn't well, ordered the turkey from a supermarket that delivered. They made a mistake and sent chicken instead. Chicken is higher in fat than turkey. Disaster, what to do? All other shops were closed by this time. I made up a small portion of the meal, enough for the evening meal and breakfast.

He went from a happy dog before the meal to a very unhappy pup within about 30 minutes after eating, and it took him a few days to recover.

The smallest change in food or insulin can have dramatic effects. You have to give changes in diet and insulin time to work. Change both at the same time, you will never figure out what is going on.

Listen to the guys and gals here, they have all been where you are now. I know it is hard, but try to relax. If you are upset it will be passed on to pooch. You are in good hands on this forum.

[wehrto]

Re: Help-2 months in-curve numbers rising?

I was considering black beans, but I may need to test which of the three is most tasteful to Max. My next thought is if the teaspoon of baby food is the only thing that has remained the same with all of the curves, and Max likes it, should I substitute a bit of dried kibble with beans instead of omitting the baby food? Since the kibble proportion is what I have been changing. The last 4 mornings I had to coax for 15 minutes to get him to eat, even with the baby food.

His curve so far today is quite puzzling, 411, 430, 401, 500, 413, 246. We were in a tropical storm this morning so I could not take him for a walk until after the 413 number. Seems sometimes a 15-20 minute walk works, sometimes it doesn't budge the numbers.

[Cara Sandler]

Re: Help-2 months in-curve numbers rising?

Hi, and welcome!

I know that lots of vets recommend a prescription diet for a diabetic dog. And that's a great idea - assuming your dig will eat it. I would say more often than not, they won't eat it. Mine sure wouldn't!!!! The bottom line with regulating blood glucose is to find something your dog will eat consistently, and adjust the insulin around it. If he won't eat the prescription food, find something else that he will eat. If it means adding a jar of baby food, so be it. That was the most effective thing I found to get my dog to eat. But definitely try to find the baby food lowest in fat and sugar that he still enjoys.

As far as the rising glucose after diagnosis, it's possible your dog was in a "honeymoon period" which is when he is still making some of his insulin. As his body's production of insulin completely stops, you will need to increase his dose. Again, that's relatively common.

Hang in there! It does get easier.

[wehrto]

Re: Help-2 months in-curve numbers rising?

Ok, I just checked the stage 1 chicken baby food. Small jar contains 70 calories, 4g fat, 7g protein, no sugar added, ingredients are just ground chicken and broth. This jar lasts at least 7 days so each serving I give him would be approximately 5 calories. The lamb lung nutrition for one ounce is 27 calories, .74g fat, 4.73g protein.

Yes, I've become more prudent with any type of activity, whether someone visits the house and he is barking, sitting in the sun, running in the yard.

Thanks for all your input, patience is my worst enemy and I need to deal with that immediately.

[jesse girl]

Re: Help-2 months in-curve numbers rising?

this disease will teach you patience . there is no quick way to figure things out . its trial and error .

i dont think the baby food has any big affect on blood sugar. if the lambs lung helps to improve blood sugar i would use it at every meal if it will be consumed .

there are times where we must move things a bit faster or just put off regulation altogether temporarily due to a health crisis and your pup does not have those problems .

i bounced around with jesse at the beginning but i new she was on borrowed time and i still may have muddle the waters by doing that and created a more difficult road for jesse

[wehrto]

Re: Help-2 months in-curve numbers rising?

Cara, first I am so sorry for your loss of Sparky Love, I have read your thread and my heart aches for you.

Thank you for your input, it frightens me to think I would have to coax Max to eat every meal when that is all he has to enjoy food-wise. The Beechnut stage 1 chicken baby food was the lowest calories with no sugar and no added ingredients. I have spent much time looking at every jar.

I did not think about the honeymoon stage, I thought numbers were going in the right direction and then haywire. One step forward, two steps back. Of course my changing the food proportion helped in no way. This is like an out of control science project. I don't like when things are out of my control. I need a lot of personal adjustments in patience and control.

Thanks for all your support, this forum is what gives me hope.

[Cara Sandler]

Re: Help-2 months in-curve numbers rising?

Thank you. I still miss Sparky terribly, but I know he would have wanted me to remain on the forum and help other people out. It keeps his memory alive.

And while it would be great if we could explain to our dogs that they are diabetic and MUST eat special food, we can't. In the end, I think it's fair to let them be dogs, and enjoy what they eat. There's realistically only so much we can do to get them to eat food they hate, and then it's time to compromise and find whatever it is that they will eat willingly.

[Yulismum]

Re: Help-2 months in-curve numbers rising?

Yuli is currently on Royal Canin Diabetic wet food and Royal Canin kibble. It is horribly expensive.

When I changed vets, my current vet indicated that he was not really too bothered about what he ate, as long as it was consistent. Yuli has been through a UTI, anal gland infection and an ear infection that took over three months to clear. Antibiotics will send your pup's numbers all over the place.

He had an operation on 19th June and got his eyes fixed. He is on drops and medication including a horrible immune suppressant, now finished the course thank goodness, but of course the whole thing has sent him all over the place.

Once he is signed of by the eye doctor, and once his glucose has had time to settle, I am going to change his diet to regular dog food with a little bit of added kibble. The kibble is very useful for adjusting his weight if needed. Also we have a game for him. It is a block of wood with hidden compartments, he stopped playing with it when he went blind, but we will start again after he has been signed off by the vet. We just take a few kibble from his daily feed and put it in the compartments. He gets the game straight after eating, so there is no time lag, and it gives him an interest.

I am not up on US dog foods, but the people on the forum will give you loads of advice. You will still have to change his diet over very slowly, but you will both feel better if he is eating. And if the vet doesn't like it, find another vet.

[wehrto]

Re: Help-2 months in-curve numbers rising?

What a wonderful tribute to Sparky, you are a very special person to continue helping others with this very trying disease. Please keep up the support, it is GREATLY appreciated.

I will continue to stay consistent with his food and see what occurs within the next week. Any suggestions are always appreciated.

[amydunn19]

Re: Help-2 months in-curve numbers rising?

Hi and belated welcome ! I think the baby food has only a minimal effect on blood sugar so I wouldn't cut it out. I think the food tweaking with every change is probably your biggest issue. Just stick to exactly the same for a period of time to get some consistent readings. The original composition 3/8 cup of each kibble gave the best numbers so I would go back to that exact combo.

I had a dog who flat refused all the prescription diet and I tried everything. I didn't know any better and my original vet was so far over her head with my dog and obviously she didn't know any better either because I almost lost her to hypoglycemia. I switched to an IMS who told me that we had to get her eating something she likes. Finally, something that made sense. At that time, I had decided to take control of her care and learn as much as I could. Best decision of my life.