Low Glycemic Dog Food

[Just1MoreCookie]

Hello All. My wife and our are new to the realm of K9 Diabetes and have been battling this for so for only 4 weeks with our 12 lbs Maltese.

Quick background, he was always overweight, he was tagged the "bowl cleaner" but we now see this overweight issue was not as cute as we thought it was.

Frederick had an eye infection which we took him in for and he got some medicated eye drops with steroids. After a week of roids he went from 16 lbs to 11.5 lbs, we saw this at home and took him earlier then next scheduled for eyes. Otherwise, he was full steam ahead, albeit a tad slower then normal, even though significantly svelter!

So they run a full senior blood work and a lot of things are going on but we see 6XX BG. (other things are assumed to a result of high BG, for now, BG is only focus, is this OK, or do we need to look at it all, this is what vet said)(we dont like this vet too much, alteast not thrilled, reason we have decided to do most of this on our own, meter, reading and this great site)

So we start on Vetsulin about 4 weeks ago now and this is the progress:

Week 1 - started at an inducation of 2.5 units, went OK, ordered AlphaTrak II from Amazon. BG 400 to 500

Week 2 - next week went up to 3 units and went to chicken and vegetables only, went much better, discovered both treats and dental sticks all had "sugar" as an ingredient, I swear, the FDA should require the same Nutritional Labels on Pet Foods, its ridiculous. BG down to 200 and a few 100s, we order a low-glycemic kibble to add to chicken and vegetables, as have three other small dogs as well and a "filler" would help a lot.

Week 3 - told to go to 4 as we are moving back up into the 400 and 500 range with sporadic 200s.

Week 4 - very confused, reading everything there is about Somogyi but not certain that is the case. High readings continue, only relief and occasional walks.

Current - after pulling the nutritional information on the Zignature Kangaroo Kibble we see that the top five ingredients have some "sugar" with chickpeas being quiet sugary. This is what I am focusing on now, as we went up to 5 units last week and are now back down to 3 in fear of Somogyi. What we are seeing is that 1 mile walks which the pack LOVE, he will go from 400 to 200 or 150 and we are now reserved to the fact that Frederick will be walked everyday (we need it too, plus our Shiz Tsu, is a little beefy herself). However, until that walk occurs he is in the 400, 500 or higher range, with a HI at one reading. This morning (after pulling nutritional information of top 5 ingredients in kibble last night) this was our first meal going back to chicken and vegetables only.

We were testing a couple times a day and am doing a semi-curve today, but wont be home to do a full curve. The reason I am posting is to ask about "low-glycemic" foods. Without any research, I only assumed a low-glycemic kibble would be A-OK for a diabetic dog. But after two weeks of very high numbers and no explanation (after they started out doing well in Week 2), I am afraid that little (low) amount of sugar in this kibble is just enough to have a big onset of BG for the little guy. (sad to say it took me 2 weeks to realize the kibble was[maybe] an issue)

For instance, after his 1 mile walk last night he awoke to a 330 BG, which is better actually compared to his last two week, and then he was fed a zero carb meal and given 4 units of Vetsulin this morning at 7AM (I am not a morning person, but becoming one, and not by choice).

0 Hours 330
1 Hours 526
2 Hours 486
3 Hours 480

I can understand the kibble having an immediate increase but I had hoped the first no-carb meal would have the immediate drop I was looking for. Could Somogyi occur in that first hour, do I need to BG test every 15 minutes for the 1st hour?

So to summarize my queston:

1. Low glycemic, for some dogs still is no go?
2. Can Somogyi occur at only 4 units at 12 lbs and can it occur within a first hour after a meal timeframe, no see it at 60 minute mark. Would testing at 15 minutes interval help me see this?
3. How can I feed zero carb meal, dose 4 units and have immediate increase of 150 or points in 60 minutes.

I guess my next step is to continue with no carb meals and let the kibble effect flush out of his system (has only been 1 meal without kibble). I really hope to see him in the 200s, even if high 200s, again. These wide swings are very complicated, but they are partly my own issue as I have changed doses and food perhaps to quickly.

I know without curves it is hard to tell. We are home tomorrow, and I hope to do a full 12 or even 18 hour curve on his second day of no-carbing it.

Off to Amazon to order more stripes, should be a crime what they charge for these $0.025 (two and have penny to manufacture strips)

Thanks everyone, have a good week, go for more walks!

[jesse girl]

Re: Low Glycemic Dog Food

hi and welcome

what i have discovered with jesse a low glycemic diet is not the best for stable blood sugar

many dogs struggle with just protein diets and actually some highly digestible carbs and some sugar can be beneficial

its kind of funny jesse spiked after her dinner and played around with it for years and the thing that stopped it was drizzling some honey on her dinner

my theory is actually the insulin for dogs is a bit to strong and i dont think dogs digest food the way we do and store and use sugar so what happens there just isnt enough sugar to work with the strength of insulin and what you see is the body dumping sugar into the system to work with that insulin and it over compensates . thats why may you see very high numbers

also you may raise the dose in response to these higher numbers and actually see numbers becoming more unstable where at a lower dose you saw much better numbers

so there is a food component but its not what you may think with low glycemic most dogs may need digestible carbs and or sugar added to there diets . thats why the prescription diets actually do quite well

it befuddled me for years thinking the digested food was spiking her sugar but it was her stored supplies of sugar causing it ( i believe cant physically prove it ) the natural process is quite different where the body uses insulin and sugar on demand when its needed to keep sugar stable and within normal range . injected insulin is time released so the balance is much more difficult for the body to accomplish

you can post some curves and we can have a look

[Daisydog10]

Re: Low Glycemic Dog Food

I am new at this as well and the other members on this page will be a big help to you. Their input helped me get Daisy stabilized fairly quickly.

From what I'm understanding, most dogs take 5-7 days (sometimes a little longer) to settle in to doses and different food changes, which I wasn't doing and Daisy's numbers and curves were all over the place. I thought she was rebounding as well.

Although some dogs do very well on prescription diets, she was responding with higher BG levels. I'd up her insulin, she'd go higher; I'd lower her insulin, she was still high. I didn't know what to do. So I started lurking on this forum, became a member and lo and behold, I was doing a lot wrong. I wasn't letting her stabilize with her insulin or her food.

In February, I put her on a home made low glycemic diabetic dog food and settled her in on a dose. After several curves, it turns out her insulin was not a good match and in March it was changed. I calmed down and let her settle in with her new insulin dose, checking her levels daily, then did a curve, adjusted the insulin, did a curve, adjusted again and that's when she became fairly stable.

So I guess what I'm saying is each dog is so different, some do well with one diet, some on another. Some do well on one insulin, some on another. But with the help of the members here, they can help you pinpoint what may be going on.

[Raysaint]

Re: Low Glycemic Dog Food

No carbs could be triggering a liver release of sugar, because the body needs fuel (carbs), and without any, the liver takes over. Insulin needs carbs to balance it out. Low glycemic just refers to how fast the carbs turn into sugar and get into the bloodstream. Low glycemic (slower release) is usually better for diabetics (which I am) to prevent a big sugar spike after meals.

[k9diabetes]

Re: Low Glycemic Dog Food

One thing you learn pretty quickly with a diabetic is that "Every dog is different." How they respond to the insulin, how they respond to the food and to exercise.

I can tell you what "usually" happens...

- Exercise most often drops the blood sugar, often sharply, so you have to make sure they have some decent blood sugar before going on a walk.

- Any sharp drop in blood sugar can "use up" the insulin, causing it to run out relatively soon after, which may or may not coincide with the action of the food in their system.

A high protein, low carb diet, for example, could take a long time to digest and break down into sugar so you might see the sugar showing up hours after the peak of the insulin activity. So you could get first a sharp drop in blood sugar when Frederick has lots of insulin but not much food digested. And then much higher blood sugar later because the insulin is now mostly gone and the food is just finally being fully digested and going into the bloodstream.

- Low or no carb diets can be too slow acting to match the insulin.

I have been involved in forums for diabetic dogs for 13 years now and most often low or no carb high protein diets do not work well for diabetic dogs.

The reason is that they usually absorb and put injected insulin to work faster than people do.

So while a human diabetic usually gets both a long-acting basal insulin and fast-acting insulin to cover meals, dogs do well with an intermediate insulin like NPH or Vetsulin and rarely need a fast acting insulin. Some dogs get a big jolt of insulin just an hour or so after eating and a dramatic drop in blood sugar.

The thing you need to find out is what your dog does - since that's all that really matters.

Which means you will need to choose a food - probably not ideal to go carbless - and stick with it and a dose of insulin for a full week and then do a curve and see what you get.

The curve will tell you - with our help - whether the insulin and food regimen you have chosen are well matched and providing even blood sugar and whether more or less insulin is needed.

. . . .

As far as the insulin dose, I would stay with either 3 or 4 units IF you are giving it twice a day... are you doing two injections per day?

If you currently are giving only one injection, he should be on two, 12 hours apart, and I would reduce the dose back to maybe 2 units given twice a day.

Natalie

[Denni A]

Re: Low Glycemic Dog Food

hi Natalie - good information to know.

so my question would be how soon after your dog/cat eats should you administer the dose. if diet is high protein low carb should you wait 1/2 hour. if diet is 60/40 or 50/50 administer immediately after eating or always wait about 15 minutes for food to start digesting.

[CraigM]

Re: Low Glycemic Dog Food

hi Natalie - good information to know.

so my question would be how soon after your dog/cat eats should you administer the dose. if diet is high protein low carb should you wait 1/2 hour. if diet is 60/40 or 50/50 administer immediately after eating or always wait about 15 minutes for food to start digesting.

I'll give you my thoughts. Generally there is no need to wait to give the injection. In fact, some will inject while the pup is eating. When my wife was taking care of our Annie, she would inject as Annie ate. Annie would pause her eating for the two seconds, and then get back into her bowl. I allow Annie to finish her meal, and she normally comes to me for her injection right away.

Two times I might delay the injection is if I had any thought Annie might vomit her meal, or if she had a very low blood glucose reading just prior to the meal.

Craig

[k9diabetes]

Re: Low Glycemic Dog Food

hi Natalie - good information to know.

so my question would be how soon after your dog/cat eats should you administer the dose. if diet is high protein low carb should you wait 1/2 hour. if diet is 60/40 or 50/50 administer immediately after eating or always wait about 15 minutes for food to start digesting.

No one can really say... I think it's best to read your dog's "book". Test and see what you get and tweak from there.

Some dogs take forever to unpackage the insulin and put it to use. Others put it to work so quick it's like it's fast acting.

Food is the same way. I've seen a teaspoon of oatmeal, for example, level out one dog's blood sugar nicely and send another's through the roof immediately after eating.

The thing to do is to learn what your dog does with these things. And avoid expectations about what should happen. Cuz dogs don't really care what should happen!

Natalie

[amydunn19]

Re: Low Glycemic Dog Food

I fed a "low glycemic" food with Maggie but I had to add some elements to prop it up and get the insulin to work well with her food. It is an issue of balance of food and insulin. As Natalie said, dogs are very different and you can't put them all together - there is not one diet that works, usually, it is that many diets can balance well. Keep in mind, too that the principles of human type 2 diabetes is not necessarily one that is going to work with dogs. Dogs are more closely related to type 1 diabetics, but the insulin we use has no fast acting component and dogs use injected insulin different than humans.

Consistency is key - same amount of food/same insulin at the same time every day twelve hours apart for at least 5 days before making changes. Unless you start seeing lows. Low blood sugar is more dangerous than high sugar - dogs can handle higher blood sugar for a longer period of time without the same organ damage as humans.

As far as exercise, I wouldn't base any plan on a set amount of exercise every day. Moderate exercise daily is fine but you can't really regulate them using exercise. You will find that many things can affect blood sugar - including infections, excitement, anxiety, etc. A bath could drop my Maggie 150 points. I would try to achieve a food insulin balance first because you may not be able to count on a mile every day. Plus, even the temperature or humidity may affect the action of the insulin. I found excessive cold dropped Maggie like a rock. Every dog is different but keep in mind that things that may seem routine may affect the process.